What is this whole URM thing?

[lorenzomicron]

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I'm sort of new to the whole culture of premedical students and medical school application, but what is this whole URM thing?
why is this so important?
I have read many posts that basically say if you are a URM, you don't have to be as accomplished.
Why does thus URM thing even matter?

 

[Hoody]

to SDN



search function is your friend... other than that, enjoy the show

 

[lorenzomicron]

to SDN



search function is your friend... other than that, enjoy the show

So, I did a search and read all about the URM thing.
still, i dont understand WHY it matters that you're from some sector of people called the URM. why shouldnt it be fair for everyone?

 

[schrizto]

You must have been living under a rock if you didn't come across URM while applying to college... or troll.

 

[LizzyM]

Educate yourself. Here are two links to the American Association of Medical Colleges (AAMC)

http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/statusofnewdefinition.pdf

https://services.aamc.org/publicati...ion=Product.displayForm&prd_id=239&prv_id=295

 

[lorenzomicron]

Educate yourself. Here are two links to the American Association of Medical Colleges (AAMC)

http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/statusofnewdefinition.pdf

https://services.aamc.org/publicati...ion=Product.displayForm&prd_id=239&prv_id=295

i've read it, and it states what it is, but i think socioeconomic diversity should be more important than racial diversity. and i think the concept of population parity comes down to "he's just as good as this other guy. who do we choose? of right, hes URM. let's choose him"

ofcourse, i don't know and i may just be making stupid assumptions.
am i wrong?

 

[Hoody]

think socioeconomic diversity should be more important than racial diversity.

I believe that socioeconomic status is taken into account, not just racial status. and generally speaking, racial minorities have lower SES. Lower SES has some correlation with poor test taking skills. I could be wrong about everything I just said, but in the end, everyone has to pass the USMLE to its all fair and square. 👍

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

So, I did a search and read all about the URM thing.
still, i dont understand WHY it matters that you're from some sector of people called the URM. why shouldnt it be fair for everyone?

Because most URMs come from underprivileged backgrounds and the US is trying to rectify its mistake for things like Tuskegee.

 

[Morsetlis]

I don't think it's all fair and square when there's a limited resource (med school seats).

Then again, this is life, after all. I won't pretend that the entire world has to obey my principles. You can only play the game you're forced to with the cards you're dealt.

 

[jvesco22]

Nice Thread OP...

Waiting for the die-hards and try-hards to turn this into a 5-page thread!

 

[aDreamer]

The last thing I want to do is to be pulled into this, as we all know this same debate has played out endless times on SDN...but I can't stay quiet on it anymore.

Disclaimer: I do not speak for all minorities! This is just my own view/experience:

So, I grew up in a place heavily segregated by race and SES. If you were black or latino it was a near certainty that you lived in one section of town, and if you were not a minority, you likely lived right down the road in the nicer, more affluent community (It's de facto segregation). That's just the way it is. The disparity was staggering. Almost everyone who lived where I live was on/had been on at some point government assistance.

Interestingly, we all attended the same school system. In theory, we had equal access to education...outcomes should have been the same, correct? Well they weren't...not even close. You were hard pressed to find minority student leaders, minorities graduating and going to top schools, scoring very impressively on tests, getting the best grades. Now you have to ask yourself...what kinds of things are going on under the surface to account for this?

I know a lot of people who are against URM being considered in apps would say something like..."well, they had just as much opportunity to succeed as the non-URM kids". And I am simply saying to you, from my own life experience, from someone who has actually LIVED that life--spent the first 18 years of my life being on the "outside", it's just not the case.

I have to say that the argument that SES should matter over race was something that I've thought about myself. And I actually do agree that SES is a HUGE part of the equation--regardless of your race, if you are born into a low SES situation, and you too have an immense amount of struggle that should be considered.

BUT, (and here's the point of this long-winded litany) there are issues/struggles associated with race that you just can't erase from the debate. From my own life, things like:

-not feeling you that "people like you" really can succeed. I didn't meet a black doctor until I was 20 years old. On that day, I actually got emotional about it later in the day, because it literally changed everything to me. Before, in my heart of hearts, I didn't think medicine could ever be within my reach. Dead serious.

I am someone who is a huge believer that without hope or belief in yourself, you're done before you even start. Not having role models that you can relate to is HUGE.

-not feeling connected to "mentors". There are many wonderful people who have helped me along the way, yes. It's difficult to explain, but basically, imagine how intimidating it is to talk to professors/etc. and get to know them simply in light of the fact that they are so "important". Now compound on top of that the feeling that you probably come from two different worlds--bc bottom line, IMO, the experience of minorities is intrinsically different from that of non-minorities REGARDLESS of the minorities' SES. (I'm sorry guys. That's just the way it is---we could argue that point all day everyday, but that would be a whole other thread 🙂)It's harder to be comfortable around them, and talk to them on a personal level.

-feeling like an outsider. Again, I can't speak for all minorities, but when I'm in a huge room of people, I notice when I am the only minority. I know that I have to shift who I am: I know that I have to speak better than I ever have, smile more than I ever have (to seem more welcoming/non-threatening). I have to downplay my "blackness" in general (not saying that not speaking well or being angry/threatening are "black"...I'm just saying that the mainstream stereotypes blacks to be this way so I have to watch that if I'm in a room of people who very likely believe that on some level to be true of black people) in order to get through it. And you know what? It's taxing. (Which, sidenote...is one reason black people often "cling together" when put in situations where there are so few of them. You don't have to worry about being judged)

And just to tie this back to medicine: the people from my community, when they are sick will often refuse to see white doctors (which, means seeing no doctors as there are NO minority ones in my area). Many still have an old fashioned mind set, it' true, but you also see it among people our age. They think "that white guy (the doctor) doesn't care about me" because in general, that's how they view white people in our society. Yes, it's a messed up mentality, yes we all need to learn to trust each other, but it's there. When more minorities are dying in the country/living less healthy lives, when minorities are underrepresented in just about every professional sector from business to law to medicine to government (and hence have next to no voice for changing things), when the most "educated" people in the country are arguing that no, their minority status and minority struggles should be completely looked over to allow for "fairness"...can you blame them?

If you are talking about "fairness" in medial school admissions, then for God's sake, start at the beginning of life. Don't just say "URMs have it easier because they can get in with lower numbers" (eyeroll)...Let's talk about WHY they are SO much more likely than people from the majority to have those low numbers. Let's talk about how according to 2008 figures from the U.S. Census Bureau blacks and hispanics account for roughly 28 percent of the U.S. population but only 6 percent of U.S. physicians are minorities. (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/58062)

I'm guessing no one wants to talk about those low numbers...

Guys, I'm not trying to guilt people or even to say that my own personal struggle is greater than every single white person in this world. Far from it. I'm just trying to advocate us looking a little deeper at these issues and opening the doors to serious discussion with each other. We have to stop this "us vs them" mentality on both sides of the aisle.

Please know that I am open to other perspectives on this issue! For the hundredth time (lol) this is just one URM's point of view. Sorry this was so long! It's apparently been brewing within me for quite sometimes (that was cleansing!). 🙂

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

^^^good post

Can't we have a megathread about URM status and MD vs DO?

Since those two topics are the worse and just start flame wars.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Vegeta! What does the scouter say about his troll level. ITS OVER 9000!

But yah, in 2 hours till thread will be a flame war. Then someone who has too many mirror neurons will feel as if he's been attacked inside and will start a MD V.S DO thread. Ah.. human empathy.... T.T

 

[TheDuder]

This "whole URM thing" is a conspiracy established by The Man so that white and Asian kids can pretend that they're the only ones who have to work hard to get into medical school.

 

[metallica81788]

aDreamer, that was probably the most useful/relevant post I've ever seen in a URM thread. Thank you for posting something most people can actually use and [hopefully] comprehend.

👍

 

[aDreamer]

Aww thanks metallica 🙂

That really does mean a lot.

I've just grown up in a really unique situation. Trust me when I say I've gone through the phase where I was angry/resentful at people for not understanding the URM perspective. I'm past that now after having interacting with so many different types of people in my life. Those kinds of feelings only impede progress. I feel so strongly that we all just need to start working together and getting REAL with each other vs. pointing fingers. I'm hopeful for change though (hence my name btw!)

 

[mwalker394]

aDreamer, I can understand your argument well. It was very eloquent.

In response to the general thread discussion, the thing that bothers me the most is that I am white, but I grew up in a community where I was the ONLY white girl in my elementary school class. I was harassed, picked on and excluded for being white, but there's no way to explain that when answering the question "What is your ethnicity?". Simply responding to a couple of questions regarding your ethnicity/race do not give a full picture of the experience you have had as whatever ethnicity/race you are. That's what I find to be most frustrating. Though I know how many applicants there are and how time-consuming the process is anyways, it seems there is a huge flaw in the system if cases cannot be analyzed on an individual basis.

 

[BBender716]

This is neither a pro/anti URM post, just an interesting question that came to me while reading this thread.

I really liked aDreamer's post and also liked mwalker394's post. And I agree that the case-by-case basis would be optimal. Maybe this is an obvious question, but really think about it because then it determines a LOT that follows.


Is the URM consideration's primary goal for medicine within the U.S. a) to alter the composition of physicians (based on race) or b) is it to allow medical schools to take into consideration the hardships of applicants due to SES/race-related impact?

We perceive the biggest impact to be on admissions obviously, because we are applicants, but is the purpose really, in fact, the former? How you answer that question dramatically changes how you compare aDreamer's and mwalker's posts. Just think about it, that's all.

 

[glypha1104]

I so happy that this discussion, so far, has been reasonable and respectful. 🙂

 

[Elpenor]

Personally, I don't care what hardships you faced or what you had to overcome. The best man/woman should get the job.

It is well documented that minorities score lower on the boards. If you look up recent ACT score data the average African American (from a family making 70k+) scores lower than an Asian family making < 20k per year. Draw your own conclusions.

This is not coming from "a rich white kid", I am in fact quite disadvantaged (not that it matters). If somebody more educated than me takes my spot because he had access to private schools etc, so be it, he deserves it.

If somebody takes my spot because he is a minority and I was unfortunately born white???? Something is wrong.

By letting "URM's" cheese by with sub-par stats, you are sending the message that minorities are not good enough to get in without a boost.

Everyone wants to be equal except when it benefits them, then they suddenly want to be "a minority" again.

 

[BBender716]

I think it's funny that it's projected that there will be no majorities by 2050. White people will also be minorities, hahahaha Looks like we need to come up with other words for describing racial demographics between now and 2050.

 

[scalab]

Do UC Medical Schools practice affirmative action? Or is it like undergrad where they are not allowed to consider race in admissions?

 

[BBender716]

Do UC Medical Schools practice affirmative action? Or is it like undergrad where they are not allowed to consider race in admissions?

I believe they do consider URM status (which is slightly different from undergrad affirmative action).

 

[LizzyM]

Is the URM consideration's primary goal for medicine within the U.S. a) to alter the composition of physicians (based on race) or b) is it to allow medical schools to take into consideration the hardships of applicants due to SES/race-related impact?

According to the American Association of Medical Colleges
medical schools should base their admissions policies on an explicit articulation of legitimate aspirations: to achieve the educational benefits of a diverse student body, including enhancing the cultural competency of all the physicians it educates and improving access to care for underserved populations.

Adopted by the AAMC Executive Committee, March 19, 2004

 

[Kid A]

Personally, I don't care what hardships you faced or what you had to overcome. The best man/woman should get the job.

It is well documented that minorities score lower on the boards. If you look up recent ACT score data the average African American (from a family making 70k+) scores lower than an Asian family making < 20k per year. Draw your own conclusions.

This is not coming from "a rich white kid", I am in fact quite disadvantaged (not that it matters). If somebody more educated than me takes my spot because he had access to private schools etc, so be it, he deserves it.

If somebody takes my spot because he is a minority and I was unfortunately born white???? Something is wrong.

By letting "URM's" cheese by with sub-par stats, you are sending the message that minorities are not good enough to get in without a boost.

Everyone wants to be equal except when it benefits them, then they suddenly want to be "a minority" again.

Wow.... First of it is not well documented that minorities do worse on the boards. ACT is so far off from the USLME that you can't compare them. Those scores are not even released and the majority of those people graduate from med school, so i am sure they do fine on it.

Those people are not taking your spots. Most of the people with the low scores are going to Historical Black Colleges and the Puerto Rican schools. Sure some minorities with lower stats get into the other schools, but the same can be said of the other races as well. You can also complain about people getting in with legacy or some other connections with the school. Is that fair? No, but guess what life is not fair.

Finally URM has nothing to do with any kind of past actions of races or with how much money people in that race make. The only purpose of it is to increase the amount of physicians from races that are underrepresented vs the general population. Frankly right now their isn't a great solution to that problem as their are still way too low in numbers, but this will help. As long as they pass their boards and become good physicians then I could care less of how they get into school. Sure their needs to be some standard, but most of the URM's still fit these. URM is not going away anytime soon so get used to it.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think it's funny that it's projected that there will be no majorities by 2050. White people will also be minorities, hahahaha Looks like we need to come up with other words for describing racial demographics between now and 2050.

Racial demographics have nothing to do with minority or majority status. It has too do with political representation and power. There have only been 5 black senators in American history, its very unlikely that this will drastically jump within 40 years.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Personally, I don't care what hardships you faced or what you had to overcome. The best man/woman should get the job.

It is well documented that minorities score lower on the boards. If you look up recent ACT score data the average African American (from a family making 70k+) scores lower than an Asian family making < 20k per year. Draw your own conclusions.

Can you link me the stats on that? It's piqued my interests.

 

[BBender716]

According to the American Association of Medical Colleges
medical schools should base their admissions policies on an explicit articulation of legitimate aspirations: to achieve the educational benefits of a diverse student body, including enhancing the cultural competency of all the physicians it educates and improving access to care for underserved populations.

Adopted by the AAMC Executive Committee, March 19, 2004

Thank you, LizzyM. That's what I think we, as applicants, can lose sight of. This goal + aDreamer's post makes a stronger argument for why race DOES matter and should not necessarily be separated from SES. To what degree it's taken into account is a different argument, but as one who has been on the opposite side of the argument for a long time, it's a refreshing perspective.

 

[BBender716]

Racial demographics have nothing to do with minority or majority status. It has too do with political representation and power. There have only been 5 black senators in American history, its very unlikely that this will drastically jump within 40 years.

I was talking statistically based on demographics. Minority = anything below 50%, majority = greater than 50% (statistically defined). The semantical/political debate you mentioned is one that will necessarily be confronted within the next 50 years, for obvious reasons, which you stated. 🙂

 

[lorenzomicron]

According to the American Association of Medical Colleges
medical schools should base their admissions policies on an explicit articulation of legitimate aspirations: to achieve the educational benefits of a diverse student body, including enhancing the cultural competency of all the physicians it educates and improving access to care for underserved populations.

Adopted by the AAMC Executive Committee, March 19, 2004

So looking at this, maybe I'm just a bit dense or something: the first part "medical schools should base their admissions policies on an explicit articulation of legitimate aspirations" seems to say admit people on merit, etc, which seems fine to me. but then the second part "to achieve the educational benefits of a diverse student body, including enhancing the cultural competency of all the physicians it educates and improving access to care for underserved populations" seems to say we need to try to have a population parity;
what i mean to say, if it should be based on legitimate things, why even need to have the second clause?

 

[MB333999]

How does one know if they are considered urm? Is there like a chart or something lol

 

[Elpenor]

Can you link me the stats on that? It's piqued my interests.

Actually I ment SAT.

check the wikipedia page for SAT and scroll down, they have some good charts.

 

[Elpenor]

Those people are not taking your spots. Most of the people with the low scores are going to Historical Black Colleges and the Puerto Rican schools.

Are you implying that setting up a school "only for blacks" does not take spots away from non-blacks? Don't be silly.

How would you feel about white only schools? Or Asian only?

 

[medking]

According to the American Association of Medical Colleges
medical schools should base their admissions policies on an explicit articulation of legitimate aspirations: to achieve the educational benefits of a diverse student body, including enhancing the cultural competency of all the physicians it educates and improving access to care for underserved populations.

Adopted by the AAMC Executive Committee, March 19, 2004

I understand this is very important. If this is one of the goals, is it not a possibility to have those that apply as URM to "sign a contract" essentially saying that they are committed to going back to where they are from and serving that underserved community? (Kind of like the Primary Care Scholarship idea except for admissions)

I don't know what the stats are on URMs ending up serving underserved communities, but if they don't correlate then getting in through lower stats wouldn't make sense to me.

 

[LizzyM]

So looking at this, maybe I'm just a bit dense or something: the first part "medical schools should base their admissions policies on an explicit articulation of legitimate aspirations" seems to say admit people on merit, etc, which seems fine to me. but then the second part "to achieve the educational benefits of a diverse student body, including enhancing the cultural competency of all the physicians it educates and improving access to care for underserved populations" seems to say we need to try to have a population parity;
what i mean to say, if it should be based on legitimate things, why even need to have the second clause?

The "legitimate aspirations" refer to those of medical school. The medical school's legitimate aspirations are
1) to have a diverse student body (because we all learn more about the diversity of opinions and life experiences in the population when we are within a diverse academic community),
2) to educate all students to capable and competent to deal with patients from a variety of cultures which is best accomplished when they are exposed to many different cultures, and
3) to choose and educate students who will help to achieve the goal of increasing access to care for underserved populations (physicians who were raised in underserved communities are more likely than physicians raised in non-underserved communities to practice in underserved communities).

 

[aDreamer]

Personally, I don't care what hardships you faced or what you had to overcome. The best man/woman should get the job.

It is well documented that minorities score lower on the boards. If you look up recent ACT score data the average African American (from a family making 70k+) scores lower than an Asian family making < 20k per year. Draw your own conclusions.

This is not coming from "a rich white kid", I am in fact quite disadvantaged (not that it matters). If somebody more educated than me takes my spot because he had access to private schools etc, so be it, he deserves it.

Hey Elpenor. I understand where you're coming from. I actually agree 100% the the best man/woman should get the job. But my point is, I don't think you can say based purely on numbers who the best man/woman is. The fact of the matter is, we have a HUGE portion of our population that are just not getting the care they need--and they are usually poor and/or minorities. So although some may say the "best" person is the person who scores highest on a test, I would just as strongly argue that the "best" person is the person who best recognizes where the need is, who best understands the needs/plight of those being overlooked, and most importantly, the person who is actually willing to get their hands dirty and get the job done in these places.

Nothing against either of us, but it just boils down to different world views. Do I agree that a base level of book/academic knowledge and know-how should be achieved? Absolutely. But I would trust that these schools know enough to recognize when someone, regardless of race, does or does not have that base knowledge. If you have a 12 MCAT you can be black, white, purple, orange, or striped and you won't get a spot. But to blindly choose the 31 over the 29 or the 40 over the 35...I just don't agree. Especially when the 40, who is more likely to have enjoyed relative privilege in their life to get that score (not a sure thing, but likely), will have a lower chance of feeling connected to the underserved.

Just an opinion...

 

[LizzyM]

Are you implying that setting up a school "only for blacks" does not take spots away from non-blacks? Don't be silly.

How would you feel about white only schools? Or Asian only?

Elpenor, I am going to assume that you are ignorant of history and not merely ignorant.

There was a time when almost all medical schools were "white only". Same with most colleges. The historically black colleges and universities were established to provide educational opportunities to blacks who were shut out of other schools. With integration of the previously all white schools, the historically black schools did not cease to exist but recognized that there continues to be a demand for schools that prepare racial minorities for positions of leadership in their communities and throughout the world. The historically black medical colleges have the mission of preparing their graduates to serve the in minority communities. There continues to be a large disparity in mortality and other health outcomes between blacks and whites in America. Physicians trained in historically black colleges have a particular interest in addressing and eliminating these disparities.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Actually I ment SAT.

check the wikipedia page for SAT and scroll down, they have some good charts.

You took charts from the criticism section of the sat on Wikipedia.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

 

[BBender716]

Hey Elpenor. I understand where you're coming from. I actually agree 100% the the best man/woman should get the job. But my point is, I don't think you can say based purely on numbers who the best man/woman is. The fact of the matter is, we have a HUGE portion of our population that are just not getting the care they need--and they are usually poor and/or minorities. So although some may say the "best" person is the person who scores highest on a test, I would just as strongly argue that the "best" person is the person who best recognizes where the need is, who best understands the needs/plight of those being overlooked, and most importantly, the person who is actually willing to get their hands dirty and get the job done in these places.

Nothing against either of us, but it just boils down to different world views. Do I agree that a base level of book/academic knowledge and know-how should be achieved? Absolutely. But I would trust that these schools know enough to recognize when someone, regardless of race, does or does not have that base knowledge. If you have a 12 MCAT you can be black, white, purple, orange, or striped and you won't get a spot. But to blindly choose the 31 over the 29 or the 40 over the 35...I just don't agree. Especially when the 40, who is more likely to have enjoyed relative privilege in their life to get that score (not a sure thing, but likely), will have a lower chance of feeling connected to the underserved.

Just an opinion...

I like it, aDreamer.

Also, "best" may include, whether you have control over it or not, the ability to also decrease the disparity of physicians of color. "Best" is more than just numbers and if a candidate who is a URM will inherently help fix this disparity, or be more likely provide much needed urban care, then those are qualities that contribute to "best".

 

[dingyibvs]

Most of you are missing the point.

1) URM is not about fairness to people with less educational resources, or else socioeconomic status would be used in lieu of race.

2) URM is not about atoning for America's past racist transgressions, or else Asians and Hispanics would be treated similarly.

3) What URM is about is creating a medical community that REPRESENTS the population that it serves. Fair? Perhaps not. But it's necessary for serving the diverse population of this country.

 

[Doodl3s]

Personally, I don't care what hardships you faced or what you had to overcome. The best man/woman should get the job.

It is well documented that minorities score lower on the boards. If you look up recent ACT score data the average African American (from a family making 70k+) scores lower than an Asian family making < 20k per year. Draw your own conclusions.

This is not coming from "a rich white kid", I am in fact quite disadvantaged (not that it matters). If somebody more educated than me takes my spot because he had access to private schools etc, so be it, he deserves it.

If somebody takes my spot because he is a minority and I was unfortunately born white???? Something is wrong.

By letting "URM's" cheese by with sub-par stats, you are sending the message that minorities are not good enough to get in without a boost.

Everyone wants to be equal except when it benefits them, then they suddenly want to be "a minority" again.

Wow.... First of it is not well documented that minorities do worse on the boards. ACT is so far off from the USLME that you can't compare them. Those scores are not even released and the majority of those people graduate from med school, so i am sure they do fine on it.

Those people are not taking your spots. Most of the people with the low scores are going to Historical Black Colleges and the Puerto Rican schools. Sure some minorities with lower stats get into the other schools, but the same can be said of the other races as well. You can also complain about people getting in with legacy or some other connections with the school. Is that fair? No, but guess what life is not fair.

Finally URM has nothing to do with any kind of past actions of races or with how much money people in that race make. The only purpose of it is to increase the amount of physicians from races that are underrepresented vs the general population. Frankly right now their isn't a great solution to that problem as their are still way too low in numbers, but this will help. As long as they pass their boards and become good physicians then I could care less of how they get into school. Sure their needs to be some standard, but most of the URM's still fit these. URM is not going away anytime soon so get used to it.

These two posts kind of did it for me, jumping me into this thread. First off, Elpenor makes a lot of the points I want to say, but let me prefix by saying I'M WHITE! lol. So, of course, even though I'll say i'm objective, I'm very aware my subconscious probably makes that TOTALLY impossible, but I will try my best to be.

so to Elpenor, i agree, although you ARE a little extreme as Kid A points out. I'm a white kid who came from a school that was probably at least a quarter black, with a lot of indians, asians, etc. And MANY kids went to a community college or dropped out. So, i did not get any high school advantage lol. and i think it definitely sends the wrong message as well. But i'll get to why that is soon.

@Kid A: life is unfair, deal with it, first off, does NOT follow in my book at all. This is not a situation in which we should just "have to deal" when it can be fixed.
You're right that the point of URM is to increase people of underrepresented races, and yes the point is to also get these people to go back to the bad areas they may have come from that richer whites might not go to.

PROBLEMS with URM now lol...
First off. All this crap about poor kids not affording MCAT prep is BS. My roomate here at my college is up to his knees in debt paying full tuition for a very expensive private university. And guess what, hes using a little bit extra (which a 1000$ is nothing compared to what he already owes) to pay for an MCAT class.
Second, then, jokingly, he has the nerve to laugh at me, because I worked VERY hard to do well on the mcat and received a score in the 99th percentile. GUESS WHAT, we then looked up statistics on him getting in with different scores. MY HISPANIC ROOMATE has HIGHER chances of getting into med school than me with an MCAT score A FULL SIX POINTS LOWER. So now to reply to kid A that says it all evens out in the end because we all have to take usmle and stuff like that.
OK, i'll give you thats true. If they become good doctors then i'm glad they got in. BUT THEY DID TAKE SOMEBODIES SPOT. LET ME make this very clear. when a class size is 100 to 150 people, there are ten to twenty people who had VERY close scores to a URM who were already at the bottom of the list to get in, but they were beat out by a kid who had an even lower score but was URM. How is this fair? its not at all.

They dont have to work as hard to get in, and their only excuse is that med schools want to look diverse. If a student A has better grades/MCAT and ECs than student B, Student B does not deserve that last acceptance letter. NOwhere in that sentence was race. And honestly, i'm pretty sure from going to diff. medical schools now, white IS the minority lol.

Lastly, I do agree that there is an idea that these URMs will go back to help the poor areas they come from. (ASSUMING, they even come from these areas) (What about all those people who come from rich high schools and take classes and are hispanic, what about them??) But of course, this can be solved by an overall incentive program, that I'm sure many white students would be glad to participate in if they're really caring doctors whose goal is to help people.

Well, thats my rage post lol 🙄. I can't wait for all the flames on me now, but its how i feel. and i probably said some bad statements here writing this fast as i have other work to do. (also, again, i still think i'm pretty objective as with my grades/mcat/ECs, i think i will get in somewhere anyway, i'm not worried about getting my spot taken, plus i have my hispanic roomate who makes fun of ME all the time since i have to get 6 points higher just to compete, and yes that 6 point statistic is real, check the AAMC site for MCAT scores/race/matriculation, its pretty disconcerting)

 

[medking]

Any responses to my earlier post, I believe #34? Especially from those pro-URM. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Any responses to my earlier post, I believe #34? Especially from those pro-URM. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

um, black people need surgeons and specialists too, not just pcps?

 

[medking]

um, black people need surgeons and specialists too, not just pcps?

You can still work in underserved areas or with underserved populations, no?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

You can still work in underserved areas or with underserved populations, no?

i love your avatar.

are you going to make sure they keep a quota of minority patients? and what's an "underserved area?" this isn't like rural PCP where you can say such-and-such area is rural. i'm pretty sure minorities are everywhere.

 

[Rach83]

I don't know what the stats are on URMs ending up serving underserved communities, but if they don't correlate then getting in through lower stats wouldn't make sense to me.

I believe people in other URM threads have provided stats showing that there is a correlation, so I guess it does make sense.

 

[Kid A]

These two posts kind of did it for me, jumping me into this thread. First off, Elpenor makes a lot of the points I want to say, but let me prefix by saying I'M WHITE! lol. So, of course, even though I'll say i'm objective, I'm very aware my subconscious probably makes that TOTALLY impossible, but I will try my best to be.

so to Elpenor, i agree, although you ARE a little extreme as Kid A points out. I'm a white kid who came from a school that was probably at least a quarter black, with a lot of indians, asians, etc. And MANY kids went to a community college or dropped out. So, i did not get any high school advantage lol. and i think it definitely sends the wrong message as well. But i'll get to why that is soon.

@Kid A: life is unfair, deal with it, first off, does NOT follow in my book at all. This is not a situation in which we should just "have to deal" when it can be fixed.
You're right that the point of URM is to increase people of underrepresented races, and yes the point is to also get these people to go back to the bad areas they may have come from that richer whites might not go to.

PROBLEMS with URM now lol...
First off. All this crap about poor kids not affording MCAT prep is BS. My roomate here at my college is up to his knees in debt paying full tuition for a very expensive private university. And guess what, hes using a little bit extra (which a 1000$ is nothing compared to what he already owes) to pay for an MCAT class.
Second, then, jokingly, he has the nerve to laugh at me, because I worked VERY hard to do well on the mcat and received a score in the 99th percentile. GUESS WHAT, we then looked up statistics on him getting in with different scores. MY HISPANIC ROOMATE has HIGHER chances of getting into med school than me with an MCAT score A FULL SIX POINTS LOWER. So now to reply to kid A that says it all evens out in the end because we all have to take usmle and stuff like that.
OK, i'll give you thats true. If they become good doctors then i'm glad they got in. BUT THEY DID TAKE SOMEBODIES SPOT. LET ME make this very clear. when a class size is 100 to 150 people, there are ten to twenty people who had VERY close scores to a URM who were already at the bottom of the list to get in, but they were beat out by a kid who had an even lower score but was URM. How is this fair? its not at all.

They dont have to work as hard to get in, and their only excuse is that med schools want to look diverse. If a student A has better grades/MCAT and ECs than student B, Student B does not deserve that last acceptance letter. NOwhere in that sentence was race. And honestly, i'm pretty sure from going to diff. medical schools now, white IS the minority lol.

Lastly, I do agree that there is an idea that these URMs will go back to help the poor areas they come from. (ASSUMING, they even come from these areas) (What about all those people who come from rich high schools and take classes and are hispanic, what about them??) But of course, this can be solved by an overall incentive program, that I'm sure many white students would be glad to participate in if they're really caring doctors whose goal is to help people.

Well, thats my rage post lol 🙄. I can't wait for all the flames on me now, but its how i feel. and i probably said some bad statements here writing this fast as i have other work to do. (also, again, i still think i'm pretty objective as with my grades/mcat/ECs, i think i will get in somewhere anyway, i'm not worried about getting my spot taken, plus i have my hispanic roomate who makes fun of ME all the time since i have to get 6 points higher just to compete, and yes that 6 point statistic is real, check the AAMC site for MCAT scores/race/matriculation, its pretty disconcerting)

I think you are a little jaded by your roommate and it's not right that he makes fun of you for this. That's not to say being URM will get you any automatic rights into school.

White- 36,352/74,741 = 48.6 percent acceptance.
Hispanic- 3,867/8,145 = 47.5 percent acceptance.
Black- 3,870/ 9,652 = 40.1 percent acceptance.
From the AAMC data
It's really hard to say how much of a difference URM makes. Yes those statistics are higher for the URM at certain scores. However, comparing a few hundred to thousands it's hard to make a direct comparison between the two. Plus again GPA/MCAT are only part of getting into med school.

 

[TheDuder]

I actually agree 100% the the best man/woman should get the job. But my point is, I don't think you can say based purely on numbers who the best man/woman is. The fact of the matter is, we have a HUGE portion of our population that are just not getting the care they need--and they are usually poor and/or minorities. So although some may say the "best" person is the person who scores highest on a test, I would just as strongly argue that the "best" person is the person who best recognizes where the need is, who best understands the needs/plight of those being overlooked, and most importantly, the person who is actually willing to get their hands dirty and get the job done in these places.

Well said.👍

 

[medking]

i love your avatar.

are you going to make sure they keep a quota of minority patients? and what's an "underserved area?" this isn't like rural PCP where you can say such-and-such area is rural. i'm pretty sure minorities are everywhere.

Underserved area = places where there is a concentrated number of underserved (the places where the URMs are saying they are coming from).