What is this whole URM thing?

[sewcurious]

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i have a genuine question for sewcurious and those who agree with the sentiments outlined by her.

you mentioned that the majority of people in power are white and that examples of this person or that person of color in power are used often, however still the majority are white. very true, i agree with you. "my black (gay, hispanic, indian, etc etc) friend" is an example used all the time.

now, i can't recall off the top of my head the statistics of racial make up of america right now, but what if, say, for every 10 people in power we had a representitive make up of the racial distribution in america?

example: (again, the numbers are prob off)

6 whites (euro+mid east+north africa+non hispanic)
2 blacks (african american/african)
1 hispanic
1 asian

this is simplified a lot, obv. and not including some key races...but anyway, if those in power represented the percentage distribution of race for the people, would that be satisfactory and do you think the masses would be accepting of it?


as a end note i have to say, wow, everyone has been really respectful. 👍🙂

I would prefer that racial distinctions not be necessary (as I mentioned before they are absolutely arbitrary and themselves incredibly biased and exclusionary, for example do the historically considered "black" americans really represent the interests of people who are children of African immigrants) and that all representatives regardless of background could go out of their way to consider the perspectives of others.

So while the proposition is superficially appealing I don't think that would solve the problem, majorities can still take advantage of minorities even with equal representation. I definitely support more equitable representation but ideally that shouldn't be forced. I believe it will be a result of a more honest confrontation with America's imposed social stratification rather than a cause of it.

Edit: Additionally, for me this issue is very much a class one (in this country SES just happens to be very much linked with one's race). I would prefer a system in which a more equal distribution of the range of socioeconomic status were possible (realistically the only place that would be applicable is govt), over something as objective as socially contrived as race.

Edit 2: Now that I think about it it is impossible for any person to represent completely all the interests of whatever category is being considered. There is no way to equally proportion the huge diversity of the American experience nor are we necessarily able to categorize all the ways they are different. Sure race, class, religion, etc are important but they aren't everything. Which, if you think about it, is pretty damn awesome.

 

[298609]

I would prefer that racial distinctions not be necessary (as I mentioned before they are absolutely arbitrary and themselves incredibly biased) and that all representatives regardless of background could go out of their way to consider the perspectives of others.

So while the proposition is superficially appealing I don't think that would solve the problem, majorities can still take advantage of minorities even with equal representation and frankly. I definitely support more equitable representation but ideally that shouldn't be forced. I believe it will be a result of a more honest confrontation with America's imposed social stratification rather than a cause of it.

okay, i hear you on that. the hardest thing for people to do with regards to discrimination is be honest. interestingly, since the 60s (and 40s...and 20s) society seems to have become less honest, opting for saying what they think they should believe rather than what they actually believe. back then, there would be signs that said "no jews allowed" on a for sale sign...now, they'll just claim it's not for sale anymore when they hear you're a goldberg. back then, they'd ask how you expect to handle the work load when you get married and pregnant, now, they ask how you manage to look so nice and get there by 7am.

it's crazy that so many have changed their vocabulary but not their repertoire of behavior.

 

[sewcurious]

Also curbye I found an interesting quote that applies:

I do not want the peace that passeth understanding. I want the understanding which bringeth peace.
-Helen Keller

 

[ACSheldor]

Here's my opinion on it and this is probably all I'm going to say about it: The truth is that the real world in this field doesn't depend on your merit or your scores or whatever, it depends on how well you interact with people (patients, other doctors, superiors). Being able to interact with people and being a "people-person" is what determines success. Medical schools know that after a certain point (say 3.7 and 32) that a person is smart enough to handle the curriculum but what it comes down to is the interaction and how they carry themselves. For that reason race plays a HUGE factor, it has to. No matter what you say you won't convince anyone that a URM won't interact better with a patient of their own race than someone else. Most of the population is not too educated so they base a lot on first impressions so we need doctors that they can trust because inherently people trust people from the same race and/or background more than someone who isn't. If you're going to be out in the field and treating people then RACE and URM has to play a factor. I would say that merit would be more of a factor in MSTP type programs but even then race would matter because a lot of MSTP's end up in academics and teaching doctors who are going into the field so it would still matter at that point.

 

[sewcurious]

Here's my opinion on it and this is probably all I'm going to say about it: The truth is that the real world in this field doesn't depend on your merit or your scores or whatever, it depends on how well you interact with people (patients, other doctors, superiors). Being able to interact with people and being a "people-person" is what determines success. Medical schools know that after a certain point (say 3.7 and 32) that a person is smart enough to handle the curriculum but what it comes down to is the interaction and how they carry themselves. For that reason race plays a HUGE factor, it has to. No matter what you say you won't convince anyone that a URM won't interact better with a patient of their own race than someone else. Most of the population is not too educated so they base a lot on first impressions so we need doctors that they can trust because inherently people trust people from the same race and/or background more than someone who isn't. If you're going to be out in the field and treating people then RACE and URM has to play a factor. I would say that merit would be more of a factor in MSTP type programs but even then race would matter because a lot of MSTP's end up in academics and teaching doctors who are going into the field so it would still matter at that point.

👍👍👍

 

[pyt0421]

Here's my opinion on it and this is probably all I'm going to say about it: The truth is that the real world in this field doesn't depend on your merit or your scores or whatever, it depends on how well you interact with people (patients, other doctors, superiors). Being able to interact with people and being a "people-person" is what determines success. Medical schools know that after a certain point (say 3.7 and 32) that a person is smart enough to handle the curriculum but what it comes down to is the interaction and how they carry themselves. For that reason race plays a HUGE factor, it has to. No matter what you say you won't convince anyone that a URM won't interact better with a patient of their own race than someone else. Most of the population is not too educated so they base a lot on first impressions so we need doctors that they can trust because inherently people trust people from the same race and/or background more than someone who isn't. If you're going to be out in the field and treating people then RACE and URM has to play a factor. I would say that merit would be more of a factor in MSTP type programs but even then race would matter because a lot of MSTP's end up in academics and teaching doctors who are going into the field so it would still matter at that point.

Asians are 20+% of the medical school graduates while representing only 4.4% of the population in America. So by your reasoning... 70% of the asians who are in medical school shouldn't be there?

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/enrollmentgraduate/table30-gradsschlraceeth09-web.pdf

I mean by your definition, all these asian students are unqualified/inferior doctors because they are going to be treating patients who aren't asian and don't have the same background as them.

 

[SabC]

If you are talking about "fairness" in medial school admissions, then for God's sake, start at the beginning of life. Don't just say "URMs have it easier because they can get in with lower numbers" (eyeroll)...Let's talk about WHY they are SO much more likely than people from the majority to have those low numbers. Let's talk about how according to 2008 figures from the U.S. Census Bureau blacks and hispanics account for roughly 28 percent of the U.S. population but only 6 percent of U.S. physicians are minorities. (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/58062)

I'm guessing no one wants to talk about those low numbers...

The commentary at the end of this article achieves a rather exquisite level of repugnance and is highly representative of why there is a need for URM-type policy.

 

[Cleavername]

For any one still confused about med school admissions and "merit", please readJustice: What's the Right Thing to Do?,or watch below.

[YOUTUBE]AUhReMT5uqA[/YOUTUBE]

amazing video.

my $0.02. justice isn't about the right thing to do that is the right thing to do is never exactly the same. justice is more of a reflect of the current society its refering to, or rather who ever is in charge of that society gets to say what is right and what is wrong. all who oppose it may be punished, regardless what they think is right or wrong.

 

[ACSheldor]

Asians are 20+% of the medical school graduates while representing only 4.4% of the population in America. So by your reasoning... 70% of the asians who are in medical school shouldn't be there?

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/enrollmentgraduate/table30-gradsschlraceeth09-web.pdf

I mean by your definition, all these asian students are unqualified/inferior doctors because they are going to be treating patients who aren't asian and don't have the same background as them.

This is you taking my argument too far and to extreme ends. For poor areas, race matters when it comes to the doctors that serve them. These people are very poor, not very educated, and generally will not trust someone not like them. In richer areas, it really doesn't matter. Educated people know that a doctor who has passed through all the hurdles to become a doctor is as qualified to treat them as any other doctor in the country no matter the race and that they (the patient) can trust them.

This is where you have to go by race because majority of the african american population is poor and not very well educated. So, in turn you have to have more african american students to serve this population. The vast majority of asian americans are not poor and are very educated, so training asians will not effect the trust of asian or white patients (i.e. populations that tend to be more educated). It's a similar situation with whites as with asians.

Realize that this is just my point of view and my argument. None of us know how adcoms decide these types of things and the fact that they may know things that we don't about race and medicine. Of course we can come up with anecdotes with how certain situations may not apply but medical schools wouldn't have the time to dwelve into each file so some general policies have to be made.

Also, this is just how the system was set up as agreed upon by medical schools and most of us have the resources to look up what is and is not competitive for the schools we want to attend. One would be better off to try and just do your best to get in and not complain about a process none of us know much about.

What I'm trying to say is that this is more of a service field than a merit based field. After a certain point medical schools know that students can handle the curriculum so they look at other areas such as what could service the patients better. Being a URM provides experiences that could serve patients better in certain populations, so they decide to go by that. Think of it as IQ. Does having a higher IQ mean that you will be better suited for a job than someone else? No, unless it is a highly specialized job (such as theoretical researcher), the deciding factor for a job will depend on if you have other skills, experiences, etc. that would qualify you to do the job better. After a certain point, both of you are intellectually qualified to do the job.

Only the first two paragraphs were towards pyt, the rest is just a general opinion I added to the argument.

 

[ACSheldor]

Also, to me someone saying I deserve to be in medical school because I have a higher GPA/MCAT and disregarding life experiences and how that person could interact with patients is the equivalent of someone telling the NBA that they deserve to be drafted because they're taller/faster/or can jump higher than another person. There's more to it, just accept that as a new requirement for medical school.

 

[chelala]

ACSheldor, I highly doubt the reason why some of the African American population distrusts doctors of other races is because of lack of education, rather it is the historical use and abuse of blacks by non-black physicians, researchers, and scientists.

 

[ACSheldor]

I didn't mean a lack of overall education but more of a specific type of education, which is the procedures and qualifications of doctors. But yea, you do have a great point. I think it has a lot to do with both reasons though but probably a bit closer to what you said.

My point was that black tend to distrust doctors of other races more than any other race and certainly more than asians. That's why it is important for us to educate more African American doctors.

 

[chelala]

Not to be so nitpicky, but they understand the general qualifications of doctors, but what reason do they have to believe that a white doctor has their best interest at hand? Not many that I know, and this is of all socioeconomic statuses and education levels. But, yes, it is important that more African Americans become doctors.

 

[jeffro1080]

I am an East Asian from a very impoverished family (parents did not go to college, they also earn less than $10,000 a year.) I live in government housing. Would I be considered URM? How do med schools even know my parents are poor? Do they search my address?

From my stats, many would just assume I am one of those overachieved Asians because I go to a top-10 college and did lots of math/science activities and research. I had to self-teach myself lots of things in life. Medicine was not something my parents wanted me to go into. They were happy with me going to a community college and becoming a teacher. I was the one who had to push myself and think of "larger than life" dreams that my parents never had for me.

I think all med schools should revise the URM definition to only include those who are economically disadvantaged. Most URMs I know are way wealthier and grew up in much nice neighborhoods than I did. If med schools allow blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans to get into med school with low MCATs and GPAs, then they are just implying that these groups are lower-performing than other racial groups. However, if they redefine URMs as those people from impoverished backgrounds, then accepting them despite low MCATs and GPAs is ok given that these kids grew up with fewer resources than other students. Furthermore, many poor students (black, Asian, white, w/e) usually become doctors who serve impoverished populations. There are lots of minorities who are patients, but that doesn't mean they should be served by only minority doctors. Look at Paul Farmer. He grew up with almost nothing. And now he is helping poor people not only in the US, but around the world and especially in developing countries.

I can go on forever about this, but I am not going to. I am just so hurt when I go to a med school website and look up their diversity statement and find that diversity only means geographic and racial diversity.

This is the only valid argument. End of discussion.

 

[mdbound1987]

This is the only valid argument. End of discussion.

Did you seriously dig up this thread to make that comment? lol. Wow. At least say something that is thought provoking. You just said "end of discussion" to a discussion that ended 2 months ago. Although what you just said is bull****, I digress unless this thread takes off again with the cries about URMs allegedly stealing so-called well deserved non-URM spots.

 

[mmz737]

I feel like the current policy is not completely fair. Students with disabilities aren't included, and the number of disabled students in medical school is probably smaller than URM students. I feel the most fair thing is to be colorblind,and if the person has some background or experience, that should be the topic the personal statement (or an additional essay could be created about obstacles overcome), and essays be used to evaluate on a case by case basis.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I feel like the current policy is not completely fair. Students with disabilities aren't included, and the number of disabled students in medical school is probably smaller than URM students. I feel the most fair thing is to be colorblind,and if the person has some background or experience, that should be the topic the personal statement (or an additional essay could be created about obstacles overcome), and essays be used to evaluate on a case by case basis.

What do you mean disabled? They get a boost too.

 

[eablackwell]

I'm in a wheelchair. I was told to apply disadvantaged. However, I was told to apply disadvantaged because of the wheelchair and less than 25k a year income growing up.

The above quote from the other thread disregards the disadvantaged status option. I'm really not very knowledgeable about whether it's better to be URM or disadvantaged, and I really don't care... I mean it's not like I put myself in a wheelchair and made my parents poor just so one day I could check a box and write a short essay on AMCAS.

 

[Cleavername]

So because a person happens to be Native American, Black, or Hispanic, you are saying that they have no choice but to serve those communities?...Are whites who come from rural areas going to be forced to serve the rural communities too? I wasn't aware that URMs actually checked a box that said they were URM. By virtue of being an UNDERREPRESENTED MINORITY, you are URM.

But, maybe I'm wrong.

.

 

[Cleavername]

I'm not going to comment on the rest of the discussion because its been beaten to death, but anyone who looks at MDApps for their objective data is badly misguided. The real data is out there, for anyone who wants to look.

AAMC data sources: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/start.htm

Overall Averages for each race/ethnicity: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table19-mcatpgaraceeth09-web.pdf

Race/Ethnicity Stats grids: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-mcatgpa-grid-3yrs-app-accpt-raceeth.htm

Individual race PDFs are linked in the intro to the main grid.

Note: Raw numbers of students at each level don't mean much, given that there's ~6.5x as many Caucasians in the US as there are African Americans. Comparing the percentages for individual GPA/MCAT boxes on the grids is *far* more telling of just how much of an advantage being an "URM" is.

Note 2: I'm not commenting on the way the system is currently run. I know that I would definitely run it differently if I was the dean of admissions at any individual medical school, but they they have the right to fulfill their missions as they wish. LizzyM makes some damn-good points, and being "fair" isn't the primary consideration of (almost) anyone in the process (even if a lot of people wish it to be).

hahaha upon seeing that matriculants whites have pretty much the same gpa as asian, while just 1 point lower on the mcat, the orm status doesn't matter relative to whites as even close as much urm is. i sort of feel better naw, ty for the reminder.

ohhhh second thought, average gpa and mcat doesn't mean much since we do not know how highly ranked of a school they end up attending.

 

[NickNaylor]

 

[jeffro1080]

Did you seriously dig up this thread to make that comment? lol. Wow. At least say something that is thought provoking. You just said "end of discussion" to a discussion that ended 2 months ago. Although what you just said is bull****, I digress unless this thread takes off again with the cries about URMs allegedly stealing so-called well deserved non-URM spots.

A friend emailed me this thread. I didn't realize that it was so old.

No one worth listening to is claiming that URMs are: 'stealing so-called well deserved non-URM spots'. If you would stop and take a second, you might be able to see past the rantings and sob stories of bitter medical school hopefuls and discover a legitimate concern behind the controversy.

The problem with AA is not the goal. No one could argue against the need for doctors in underserved areas. Holding seats for this kind of applicant should be done. Like I said, no one is arguing against this. However, this is not the reality of the situation. Seats are not being reserved for those that will return to an underserved area, they are being filled by anyone that meets a staggering URM race requirement. This is wrong. Schools are completely disregarding the basis of the 'goal' that they are claiming to pursue... socioeconomic status.

If there was any real desire to provide underserved areas with more doctors, URMs would not be granted special consideration on the basis of race alone. There is no reason to grant special consideration to URMs that come from an affluent family. Where is the sense in that? What makes anyone think that this kind of applicant will return to a poor area?

It is ridiculous to pretend to believe that a medical student is going to harbor some deep seeded passionate drive to practice in a poor area just because that student is a URM. Not only is it ridiculous, it is coy, immoral, and border line racist. Nine times out of ten, that URM student came from the same stereotypical privileged background that most pre-meds fall into.

Medical school isn't brain surgery.... I mean rocket science. My point is that you don't need to be a genius to do well in medical school; anyone with a strong drive can do it. Therefore its stupid to claim that by low quality doctors will be produced by granting special consideration to deserving applicants. Some form of special consideration should most definitely be granted to those with a disadvantaged background. If schools took a real initiative to find students with right background, this phenomenon of underserved areas might actually decline. But it won't. Medical schools care about their rankings and how diverse they appear.

Cole is right though. The argument is tired.

 

[Simplify]

The whole concept is often justified by the assertion that patients of certain skin colors do not trust doctors of another. So instead of addressing the underlying problem that people segregate themselves along racial and economic lines, we facilitate that behavior with special statuses. People of all colors and social classes need to learn to live together. That means white people need to be comfortable with black doctors, vice versa, and every combination inbetween. URM status doesn't solve the underlying problem and in fact it only implies that people of color need a helping hand from the benificent white man in order to succeed. I find the whole concept offensive from a variety of points of view.

 

[Cleavername]

The whole concept is often justified by the assertion that patients of certain skin colors do not trust doctors of another. So instead of addressing the underlying problem that people segregate themselves along racial and economic lines, we facilitate that behavior with special statuses. People of all colors and social classes need to learn to live together. That means white people need to be comfortable with black doctors, vice versa, and every combination inbetween. URM status doesn't solve the underlying problem and in fact it only implies that people of color need a helping hand from the benificent white man in order to succeed. I find the whole concept offensive from a variety of points of view.

Humans will never stop being humans, they just won't.

 

[whoop]

Just look at the number of minority students that are attending the medical schools that you visit and you will see there is no special treatment for minorities.

 

[mdbound1987]

The whole concept is often justified by the assertion that patients of certain skin colors do not trust doctors of another. So instead of addressing the underlying problem that people segregate themselves along racial and economic lines, we facilitate that behavior with special statuses. People of all colors and social classes need to learn to live together. That means white people need to be comfortable with black doctors, vice versa, and every combination inbetween. URM status doesn't solve the underlying problem and in fact it only implies that people of color need a helping hand from the benificent white man in order to succeed. I find the whole concept offensive from a variety of points of view.

I hear you, but the reality is, this isn't how the world works. The fact is, many minority patients don't trust white doctors, or people, for that matter and it will be that way for quite some time, if not forever. Just like minorities in every profession have to be better than whites to achieve the same level of respect...it is a reality. If minorities can deal with this type of discrimination for their entire lives except when using URM status in med school admissions, white/asian/indian pre-meds can deal with 10-15 spots at each school going to minorities. Trust me, I would love for everyone to be equal and all of that, but it just isn't a reality, so there is no point in discussing it in regards to URM status and med school admissions.

 

[Ischemic]

oh lawd, please no lawd!!! who dug this **** back up ... goddamn you whoever you are.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

The truth of the matter is that there are far more applicants capable of finishing medical school than are admitted each year. With that being the case, I have no problem with medical schools tailoring their class demographics to reflect the demographic of the population they serve.

To use a sports analogy, what if the 9 best hitters in the AL or NL were all first basemen? You wouldn't run a 1B out to SS or CF for the All-Star game. For the soccer-minded, you wouldn't field a team of 11 strikers.

Trust me, if you get in, you will have gotten in over someone with a higher GPA or MCAT because of some unique aspect/experience in your history, be it research, volunteering, previous employment, etc. Did you "take" that person's spot?

I'm going to be optimistic and say that a lot of the concern with the current system is pre-med angst about a factor that they have no control over, which is understandable. Your life will just be that much less stressful if you worry about the things you can control instead of the things you can't.

Of course, you wouldn't be on SDN if that were the case, so I'm not sure how valuable a use of ATP typing that up was...

 

[Reaction]

The last thing I want to do is to be pulled into this, as we all know this same debate has played out endless times on SDN...but I can't stay quiet on it anymore.

Disclaimer: I do not speak for all minorities! This is just my own view/experience:

So, I grew up in a place heavily segregated by race and SES. If you were black or latino it was a near certainty that you lived in one section of town, and if you were not a minority, you likely lived right down the road in the nicer, more affluent community (It's de facto segregation). That's just the way it is. The disparity was staggering. Almost everyone who lived where I live was on/had been on at some point government assistance.

Interestingly, we all attended the same school system. In theory, we had equal access to education...outcomes should have been the same, correct? Well they weren't...not even close. You were hard pressed to find minority student leaders, minorities graduating and going to top schools, scoring very impressively on tests, getting the best grades. Now you have to ask yourself...what kinds of things are going on under the surface to account for this?

I know a lot of people who are against URM being considered in apps would say something like..."well, they had just as much opportunity to succeed as the non-URM kids". And I am simply saying to you, from my own life experience, from someone who has actually LIVED that life--spent the first 18 years of my life being on the "outside", it's just not the case.

I have to say that the argument that SES should matter over race was something that I've thought about myself. And I actually do agree that SES is a HUGE part of the equation--regardless of your race, if you are born into a low SES situation, and you too have an immense amount of struggle that should be considered.

BUT, (and here's the point of this long-winded litany) there are issues/struggles associated with race that you just can't erase from the debate. From my own life, things like:

-not feeling you that "people like you" really can succeed. I didn't meet a black doctor until I was 20 years old. On that day, I actually got emotional about it later in the day, because it literally changed everything to me. Before, in my heart of hearts, I didn't think medicine could ever be within my reach. Dead serious.

I am someone who is a huge believer that without hope or belief in yourself, you're done before you even start. Not having role models that you can relate to is HUGE.

-not feeling connected to "mentors". There are many wonderful people who have helped me along the way, yes. It's difficult to explain, but basically, imagine how intimidating it is to talk to professors/etc. and get to know them simply in light of the fact that they are so "important". Now compound on top of that the feeling that you probably come from two different worlds--bc bottom line, IMO, the experience of minorities is intrinsically different from that of non-minorities REGARDLESS of the minorities' SES. (I'm sorry guys. That's just the way it is---we could argue that point all day everyday, but that would be a whole other thread 🙂)It's harder to be comfortable around them, and talk to them on a personal level.

-feeling like an outsider. Again, I can't speak for all minorities, but when I'm in a huge room of people, I notice when I am the only minority. I know that I have to shift who I am: I know that I have to speak better than I ever have, smile more than I ever have (to seem more welcoming/non-threatening). I have to downplay my "blackness" in general (not saying that not speaking well or being angry/threatening are "black"...I'm just saying that the mainstream stereotypes blacks to be this way so I have to watch that if I'm in a room of people who very likely believe that on some level to be true of black people) in order to get through it. And you know what? It's taxing. (Which, sidenote...is one reason black people often "cling together" when put in situations where there are so few of them. You don't have to worry about being judged)

And just to tie this back to medicine: the people from my community, when they are sick will often refuse to see white doctors (which, means seeing no doctors as there are NO minority ones in my area). Many still have an old fashioned mind set, it' true, but you also see it among people our age. They think "that white guy (the doctor) doesn't care about me" because in general, that's how they view white people in our society. Yes, it's a messed up mentality, yes we all need to learn to trust each other, but it's there. When more minorities are dying in the country/living less healthy lives, when minorities are underrepresented in just about every professional sector from business to law to medicine to government (and hence have next to no voice for changing things), when the most "educated" people in the country are arguing that no, their minority status and minority struggles should be completely looked over to allow for "fairness"...can you blame them?

If you are talking about "fairness" in medial school admissions, then for God's sake, start at the beginning of life. Don't just say "URMs have it easier because they can get in with lower numbers" (eyeroll)...Let's talk about WHY they are SO much more likely than people from the majority to have those low numbers. Let's talk about how according to 2008 figures from the U.S. Census Bureau blacks and hispanics account for roughly 28 percent of the U.S. population but only 6 percent of U.S. physicians are minorities. (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/58062)

I'm guessing no one wants to talk about those low numbers...

Guys, I'm not trying to guilt people or even to say that my own personal struggle is greater than every single white person in this world. Far from it. I'm just trying to advocate us looking a little deeper at these issues and opening the doors to serious discussion with each other. We have to stop this "us vs them" mentality on both sides of the aisle.

Please know that I am open to other perspectives on this issue! For the hundredth time (lol) this is just one URM's point of view. Sorry this was so long! It's apparently been brewing within me for quite sometimes (that was cleansing!). 🙂

Wow.. this hit the spot.. but it sucks that I'm Indian cause like everyone I know who is Indian is premed lol sigh

 

[Ischemic]

why did you revive this thread??!! WHY??

 

[prettylady]

someone said above that if youre disabled you get a boost.
is that true?

ive read so many places that informing of a disability could actually harm the applicant more than help/boost.
im pretty sure schools dont have like a quota of students that are disabled that they need to fill up

 

[LuciusVorenus]

I hear you, but the reality is, this isn't how the world works. The fact is, many minority patients don't trust white doctors, or people, for that matter and it will be that way for quite some time, if not forever. Just like minorities in every profession have to be better than whites to achieve the same level of respect...it is a reality. If minorities can deal with this type of discrimination for their entire lives except when using URM status in med school admissions, white/asian/indian pre-meds can deal with 10-15 spots at each school going to minorities. Trust me, I would love for everyone to be equal and all of that, but it just isn't a reality, so there is no point in discussing it in regards to URM status and med school admissions.

Don't want to get involved in this really, but most UCs fill 40-50% of their incoming class with minorities (UCSD does 30% and it's on the low end while Davis is on the high end and does 54%). Harvard does too. Don't know about other schools. Of course this is off US News, maybe they use a different definition for minority.

 

[Doctor246853]

Personally, I don't care what hardships you faced or what you had to overcome. The best man/woman should get the job.

It is well documented that minorities score lower on the boards. If you look up recent ACT score data the average African American (from a family making 70k+) scores lower than an Asian family making < 20k per year. Draw your own conclusions.

This is not coming from "a rich white kid", I am in fact quite disadvantaged (not that it matters). If somebody more educated than me takes my spot because he had access to private schools etc, so be it, he deserves it.

If somebody takes my spot because he is a minority and I was unfortunately born white???? Something is wrong.

By letting "URM's" cheese by with sub-par stats, you are sending the message that minorities are not good enough to get in without a boost.

Everyone wants to be equal except when it benefits them, then they suddenly want to be "a minority" again.

WTF?? How many AA families you know make 70k and Asian families making 20k? Backwards land? Yes dude you ARE white. Unfortunately born white? Seriously? Thats like the only, if any, problem you would have in the USA. Im baffled by this and Im calling you a troll.😎

 

[Robot Unicorn]

Don't want to get involved in this really, but most UCs fill 40-50% of their incoming class with minorities (UCSD does 30% and it's on the low end while Davis is on the high end and does 54%). Harvard does too. Don't know about other schools. Of course this is off US News, maybe they use a different definition for minority.

Well I guess I am screwed.

 

[web2linc]

Diversity is a good thing 😀

 

[web2linc]

If you don't get accepted, and you blame it on a someone taking your spot, then you are a weak person. I don't care who you are.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

If you don't get accepted, and you blame it on a someone taking your spot, then you are a weak person. I don't care who you are.

It has nothing to do with someone taking "my spot". I frequently see it thrown around in these arguments that it's "just 10 or so seats out of 120". That argument bothers me. You're either for something or against it. No point in trying to brush it off by saying it's something minor/insignificant. It's ~400 out of 800 seats in California.

 

[web2linc]

It has nothing to do with someone taking "my spot". I frequently see it thrown around in these arguments that it's "just 10 or so seats out of 120". That argument bothers me. You're either for something or against it. No point in trying to brush it off by saying it's something minor/insignificant. It's ~400 out of 800 seats in California.

According to estimates from 2006, California has the largest minority population in the United States, though whites make up 57% of the state population. Non-Hispanic whites decreased from about 76% of the state's population in 1970 to 43% in 2006. While the population of minorities accounts for 100.7 million of 300 million U.S. residents, 20% of the national total live in California.

 

[web2linc]

It has nothing to do with someone taking "my spot". I frequently see it thrown around in these arguments that it's "just 10 or so seats out of 120". That argument bothers me. You're either for something or against it. No point in trying to brush it off by saying it's something minor/insignificant. It's ~400 out of 800 seats in California.

FYI, your argument is based on the false assumption that seats are reserved for minorities.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

FYI, your argument is based on the false assumption that seats are reserved for minorities.

So it's just a coincidence that almost the exact same number of URMs are accepted by each medical school in California every year? If seats weren't distributed based on race then this entire topic would just die off and applications wouldn't have a URM check-box. Obviously schools don't have exact quotas, but to say that URM applications aren't treated seperately from the main pool when granting interviews/acceptances is disingenuous. This shouldn't even be up for debate.

According to estimates from 2006, California has the largest minority population in the United States, though whites make up 57% of the state population. Non-Hispanic whites decreased from about 76% of the state's population in 1970 to 43% in 2006. While the population of minorities accounts for 100.7 million of 300 million U.S. residents, 20% of the national total live in California.

I don't even understand what you're trying to say. Yes, we have a large minority population. If you're trying to say that the racial make up of California schools just occurs naturally because, racially, the applicant pool is a good representative of the total population, then we both know that's not the case. If you're trying to say that the racial make up of schools are purposely altered to reflect the make-up of the total population then yes, of course, that's what URM status is for. However, very few med students in California are African American. Almost none at the school I go to. The problem most Californians have with the URM situation, when they do have a problem with it, is the Hispanic/Latino part of it. I can elaborate if you want.

 

[web2linc]

So it's just a coincidence that almost the exact same number of URMs are accepted by each medical school in California every year? If seats weren't distributed based on race then this entire topic would just die off and applications wouldn't have a URM check-box. Obviously schools don't have exact quotas, but to say that URM applications aren't treated seperately from the main pool when granting interviews/acceptances is disingenuous. This shouldn't even be up for debate.

I think people don't give ADCOMS enough credit. MCAT scores and GPA are not the best predictors of becoming a great physician or practicing in undeserved areas. Do you think those URMs are not qualified?

I don't even understand what you're trying to say. Yes, we have a large minority population. If you're trying to say that the racial make up of California schools just happens naturally because the applicant pool should be a good representative of the total population, then we both know that's not the case. If you're trying to say that the racial make up of schools are purposely altered to reflect the make-up of the total population then yes, of course, that's what URM status is for. However, very few med students in California are African American. Almost none at the school I go to. The problem most Californians have with the URM situation, when they do have a problem with it, is the Hispanic/Latino part of it. I can elaborate if you want.

Please do.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

I think people don't give ADCOMS enough credit. MCAT scores and GPA are not the best predictors of becoming a great physician or practicing in undeserved areas. Do you think those URMs are not qualified?

They pass the STEPs just fine as far as I know. So yes, of course I agree that they're qualified.

Please do.

When it comes to giving URMs special status, as far as the application process is concerned, I think it's pretty much agreed that is has more to do with giving a specific population group better access to physicians of their race, and so improving access to healthcare, than it does with SES. I mean, they already have a disadvantaged section don't they? So, as someone above me said, the reason comes down to minority patients not trusting white doctors. This is the part I take issue with.

African American patients don't trust white doctors? That's fine. Of course they don't. This country has an extremely ugly history when it comes to the treatment of African Americans by Whites, even when it comes to medicine (I think the Tuskegee incident has been mentioned a lot by now so I won't really go into it). If 7% of the seats in California med schools were reserved for African Americans (which make up 7% of the total population in California I think) most people wouldn't have a problem with it. In reality though, most of the "URM seats" go to Hispanics/Latinos.

To be honest, I can't figure out why Hispanics/Latinos would distrust a white doctor anymore than any other minority in the United States would. Almost every minority in this country has suffered its fair share of discrimination, and to say that the experience of Puerto Ricans, for example, is somehow so different from the experience of other minorities that it warrants special treatment just seems odd to me. Unlike African Americans, Hispanics/Latinos came here of their own free will. No one dragged them here and through centuries of abuse forced them into a specific SES group. I would go so far as to say a Hispanic person is much more welcome in the deep south and heartland than I am. He might have a bad "work ethic" but I apparently I want to celebrate 9/11, steal the women, convert the children, turn this country into a theocracy, and kill all the "real Americans" that stand in my way. Should I get special treatment for this? Nah, I'm a minority (not URM). We all go through it.

Most premeds in California take issue with this (out of the ones that have an issue with the URM thing in the first place). Most of them are immigrants, most have suffered discrimination, but for some reason their experiences aren't worth much, if anything at all.

tl;dr: I don't think Hispanics should be put into the same category as African Americans when it comes to giving URM status to those who've suffered discrimination.

 

[Ischemic]

Can someone please lock this thread?? Med school admissions is so competitive that someone is going to feel like they got shafted regardless. As ****ty as it is, the system we currently have works, though YOU as anxious and I-hope-to-God-I-get-in premeds can't see it yet.

Could it be more efficient? yes. Can it be based more on "qualification"? yes. Is that going to be more human? No.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Can someone please lock this thread?? Med school admissions is so competitive that someone is going to feel like they got shafted regardless. As ****ty as it is, the system we currently have works, though YOU as anxious and I-hope-to-God-I-get-in premeds can't see it yet.

Part of me only posted in this thread because you felt so strongly about it 😛

 

[web2linc]

When it comes to giving URMs special status, as far as the application process is concerned, I think it's pretty much agreed that is has more to do with giving a specific population group better access to physicians of their race, and so improving access to healthcare, than it does with SES. I mean, they already have a disadvantaged section don't they? So, as someone above me said, the reason comes down to minority patients not trusting white doctors. This is the part I take issue with.

African American patients don't trust white doctors? That's fine. Of course they don't. This country has an extremely ugly history when it comes to the treatment of African Americans by Whites, even when it comes to medicine (I think the Tuskegee incident has been mentioned a lot by now so I won't really go into it). If 7% of the seats in California med schools were reserved for African Americans (which make up 7% of the total population in California I think) most people wouldn't have a problem with it. In reality though, most of the "URM seats" go to Hispanics/Latinos.

To be honest, I can't figure out why Hispanics/Latinos would distrust a white doctor anymore than any other minority in the United States would. Almost every minority in this country has suffered its fair share of discrimination, and to say that the experience of Puerto Ricans, for example, is somehow so different from the experience of other minorities that it warrants special treatment just seems odd to me. Unlike African Americans, Hispanics/Latinos came here of their own free will. No one dragged them here and through centuries of abuse forced them into a specific SES group. I would go so far as to say a Hispanic person is much more welcome in the deep south and heartland than I am. He might have a bad "work ethic" but I apparently I want to celebrate 9/11, steal the women, convert the children, turn this country into a theocracy, and kill all the "real Americans" that stand in my way. Should I get special treatment for this? Nah, I'm a minority (not URM). We all go through it.

Most premeds in California take issue with this. Most of them are immigrants, most have suffered discrimination, but for some reason their experiences aren't worth much, if anything at all.

tl;dr: I don't think Hispanics should be put into the same category as African Americans when it comes to giving URM status to those who've suffered discrimination.

1) URM = Underrepresented in Medicine (not synonymous with minority).
2) Hispanic/Latinos are the fastest growing minority group in California. I wouldn't be surprised if they are the majority in California in the next 10 years. Language barriers and access to quality care are growing issue and could lead to worsening health disparities. As of right now, there is a definite shortage of Spanish speaking doctors. Times are changing. It would be illogical to say Hispanics/Latinos have not been subject to discrimination (anti-immigration laws in AZ). However, there is a certian level of distrust, but that's not the point.
3) Based on factual evidence and history, the past system hasn't worked. If it worked, health disparities wouldn't exists. URM are more likely to serve in areas that privileged Americans will not.

Read this article:

UCSF study finds underrepresented minority physicians more likely to practice in California followin

 

[LuciusVorenus]

1) URM = Underrepresented in Medicine (not synonymous with minority).
2) Hispanic/Latinos are the fastest growing minority in California. I wouldn't be surprised if that are the majority in California in the next 10 years. Language barriers and access to quality care are growing issue and could lead to health disparities. As of right now, there is a definite shortage of spanish speaking doctors. Times are changing. It would be illogical to say Hispanics/Latinos have not been subject to discrimination (anti-immigration laws in AZ). However, there is a certian level of distrust, but that's not the point.
3) Based on factual evidence and history, the past system hasn't worked. If it worked, health disparities wouldn't exists. URM are more likely to serve in areas that privileged Americans will not.

Read this article:

UCSF study finds underrepresented minority physicians more likely to practice in California followin

Underrepresented in medicine means there aren't enough doctors of a particular race in proportion to the percentage of the total population that belongs to a specific minority. So really, it does mean minority.

I wouldn't mind taking a Spanish class. It's one of the easier languages to learn if you're fluent in English. I know plenty of whites/asians who took 4 years of Spanish and speak almost fluently now. I would be fine with med schools giving priority to applicants who speak a specific language. That makes perfect sense to me. I didn't say they weren't subject to discrimination. That's not what I said at all. I said that the discrimination they're subjected to isn't any worse than what a lot of other non-black minorities have been subjected to.

That article seems to only use California as the "did they come back" location. I really doubt that anyone who can get a residency in California and open a practice here wouldn't, regardless of race. The article doesn't mention that the reason only a specific number of Californians stay in California for med school and residency is because there are way more qualified applicants in California than there are spots. Some are bound to go to other states, and if California schools are more likely to accept a URM than an ORM, all other things equal, then of course more white applicants will be leaving California than URM applicants.

That seems to be more of an SES thing anyway. I wouldn't consider a white person from a poor background a privileged American, and I doubt that person wouldn't at some point return to serve the community he or she came from.

 

[Ischemic]

1) URM = Underrepresented in Medicine (not synonymous with minority).
2) Hispanic/Latinos are the fastest growing minority group in California. I wouldn't be surprised if they are the majority in California in the next 10 years. Language barriers and access to quality care are growing issue and could lead to worsening health disparities. As of right now, there is a definite shortage of Spanish speaking doctors. Times are changing. It would be illogical to say Hispanics/Latinos have not been subject to discrimination (anti-immigration laws in AZ). However, there is a certian level of distrust, but that's not the point.
3) Based on factual evidence and history, the past system hasn't worked. If it worked, health disparities wouldn't exists. URM are more likely to serve in areas that privileged Americans will not.

Read this article:

UCSF study finds underrepresented minority physicians more likely to practice in California followin

I can't believe I"m drawn back into this BS. Anyway, one must also consider that the goal of ADMISSIONS is to decrease this disparity gap and yes URM doctors will more likely serve their own populations. However, a lot of time has passed between that URM being admitted and that URM concluding their medical education. Heavy debt can lead to them not wanting to work in URM heavy populations because the pay is **** and coverage from medicare is also ****. Family can play a role in determining where they practice. They enter specialties that aren't necessarily in big demand in URM areas like derm, anesthesiology, plastics while most URM areas need PCPs.

 

[web2linc]

Underrepresented in medicine means there aren't enough doctors of a particular race in proportion to the percentage of the total population that belongs to a specific minority. So really, it does mean minority.

I wouldn't mind taking a Spanish class. It's one of the easier languages to learn if you're fluent in English. I know plenty of whites/asians who took 4 years of Spanish and speak almost fluently now. I would be fine with med schools giving priority to applicants who speak a specific language. That makes perfect sense to me. I didn't say they weren't subject to discrimination. That's not what I said at all. I said that the discrimination they're subjected to isn't any worse than what a lot of other non-black minorities have been subjected to.

That article seems to only use California as the "did they come back" location. I really doubt that anyone who can get a residency in California and open a practice here wouldn't, regardless of race. The article doesn't mention that the reason only a specific number of Californians stay in California for med school and residency is because there are way more qualified applicants in California than there are spots. Some are bound to go to other states, and if California schools are more likely to accept a URM than an ORM, all other things equal, then of course more white applicants will be leaving California than URM applicants.

That seems to be more of an SES thing anyway. I wouldn't consider a white person from a poor background a privileged American, and I doubt that person wouldn't at some point return to serve the community he or she came from.

So you are saying that Asians are considered URMs because they are a minority? 😱

I'm done.

P.S. The AMCAS application includes a disadvantaged section specifically for this reason. I'm only talking about California specifically because you brought it up. Undeserved populations included low SES areas. It's hard to separate race from SES considering a majority of African-Americans, Mexican-Americans and other minorities live in lower-socioeconomic neighborhoods. Even at equal SES levels, there is no equality. I still think its weak to blame URMs. Step your game up. Schools value diversity (i.e. life experiences, not just URM status)! Instead of hating, you could 1)become fluent in Spanish, 2)volunteer in undeserved communities (e.g. teaching English to ESL people) 3)do anything to diversify yourself.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

So you are saying that Asians are considered URMs because they are a minority? 😱

I'm done.

P.S. The AMCAS application includes a disadvantaged section specifically for this reason. I'm only talking about California specifically because you brought it up. Undeserved populations included low SES areas. It's hard to separate race from SES considering a majority of African-Americans, Mexican-Americans and other minorities live in lower-socioeconomic neighborhoods. Even at equal SES levels, there is no equality. I still think its weak to blame URMs. Step your game up. Schools value diversity (i.e. life experiences, not just URM status)! Instead of hating, you could 1)become fluent in Spanish, 2)volunteer in undeserved communities 3)do anything to diversity yourself.

They're not considered URM because there are more than enough Asian doctors that the percentage of physicians who are Asian exceed the percentage of Asians in the total population. But yes, URM status is directly related to race.

I meant the report in general didn't talk so much about disadvantaged areas as it did just California. You don't need to increase the number of attending URMs to increase the number of physicians who practice in California. Most people would love to practice in California. You just have to open up more schools, race has nothing to do with this.

But see, now we've entered the realm of SES, which is a different discussion. URM status isn't based off SES, just race. The Hispanic population could suddenly become wealthy overnight, but URM status would still exist if there weren't enough Hispanic doctors.

I'm not really blaming anyone. I just think, as another minority, it's interesting.

But yes, we're probably done doing this:

 

[drizzt3117]

I live in a medium-sized Midwestern city that is about 80% white with about 6% each of Hispanic, black, and Asian people. Just going by my memory from the past week, in a busy hospital with thousands of doctors and residents, I can remember seeing one black physician (plastics resident, ironically) and a few hispanic doctors. Probably 20 of the drs were Asian (including Indian) although this includes residents, many of whom aren't from the area. Anyways, even in this overwhelmingly white area, urms were still underrepresented. Do I think this is a concern when it comes to care? Absolutely. Waiting for an interpreter inconveniences everyone, there's lots of cultural issues, and then there's attitudes about the profession.