Cool, if that is the case, then I'm ok with it. Though, I hope the correlation is not just a correlation but a very high one.
What is this whole URM thing?
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Cool, if that is the case, then I'm ok with it. Though, I hope the correlation is not just a correlation but a very high one.
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you need to look up what a URM is mang
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I don't know about Hispanics,
...but where I come from we have living ancestors of slavery... which is still practiced in Mauritania and many other countries around the world.
If a descendant of that gets within "bargaining range" of you, then why are you even upset?
Does your gunner mentality overwhelm your purpose of being a doctor in the first place? To help those in need. Are you going to let a handful of seats at a school blind your compassion for humanity? Or have you simply been studying too much Medicine to study any History?
I hope you realize there are Caucasians getting into medical school right now in 2010 with 2.8's and 18 MCAT's. Stats which are probably lower than the URM you decided to hate on... don't believe me? just check out Rocky Vista's entering class.
A better argument would be to say that there shouldn't be people placed under the URM umbrella who've never really had the full "URM experience," such as other minorities, and wealthy descendants of slavery.
...but where I come from we have living ancestors of slavery... which is still practiced in Mauritania and many other countries around the world.
If a descendant of that gets within "bargaining range" of you, then why are you even upset?
Does your gunner mentality overwhelm your purpose of being a doctor in the first place? To help those in need. Are you going to let a handful of seats at a school blind your compassion for humanity? Or have you simply been studying too much Medicine to study any History?
I hope you realize there are Caucasians getting into medical school right now in 2010 with 2.8's and 18 MCAT's. Stats which are probably lower than the URM you decided to hate on... don't believe me? just check out Rocky Vista's entering class.
A better argument would be to say that there shouldn't be people placed under the URM umbrella who've never really had the full "URM experience," such as other minorities, and wealthy descendants of slavery.
small side post, what about all the African-Americans and hispanic people who are always chanting "TREAT US EQUAL, TREAT US EQUAL"....
umm... ok, if you wanna be treated equal, that means race should not even be put on your application right.
Does anyone else agree that just not putting Race on your application (why is even there if we're not a racist country anymore?) then this whole problem would be solved? (well, granted you'll find out on interview day or by their last name lol)
umm... ok, if you wanna be treated equal, that means race should not even be put on your application right.
Does anyone else agree that just not putting Race on your application (why is even there if we're not a racist country anymore?) then this whole problem would be solved? (well, granted you'll find out on interview day or by their last name lol)
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Rvu's entering class averages were 3.3/26 I would honestly doubt that there were such low scores.
I think your argument is solid, however keep the ad hominen to a low.
I would agree that there needs to be a change in URM, I also think that socio-economic status is something that should be considered much more then urm status.
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what country do you live in, brother?
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What it means is that everyone should have an equal opportunity from the day they are born. The same books, the same schools, the same education. When those things become equal, then you'll have grounds to stand on and bash their "treat us equal" argument.
lol, yea, that was actually my point. We are obviously a country that STILL cares about race when we shouldnt. And the best way to show we DONT care about race would be to remove race on any form of an application for anything. Leaving race on there shows it must matter in some way. Am I right?
well heres the problem, how do we know who is getting equal treatment anyway. Plenty of white kids like me came from a school where a quarter of the students dropped. and plenty of so called URM's come from private schools that specialize in sciences and mathematics and still say their hispanic.
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If your implying that we are free from discrimination or prejudice based on skin color then your seriously mistaken. People have in-group and out group bias's, we are prone towards believing that people in a certain group that we are in are better. We also tend to believe that others outside of our group aren't as good as us.
Don't put it on our apps ok, does that mean that our eyes and minds only see the colorblind reality? That's the reality of the matter, now please take a sociology class.
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And that is why there is a second box to check, the disadvantaged one. You seem to not get the point of URM program, do you?
I'm taking social psychology right now, just did all the intrinsic evaluations we make of outgroup personas... and please read two posts up where explain i know we ARE a biased country lol. plz read before you bash
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It cannot be ignored that Hispanics and African Americans are consistently die younger, at higher rates, are able to complete less school (in worse institutions).
You can either believe that the history of racism in this country (perpetrated in government, corporations, the public sector, general population etc) which has been well-documented (though admittedly not widely taught) is responsible for this or you can believe that this is due to the innate inferiority of minorities that of course has nothing to do with the fact that African Americans gained the right to vote only 50 years or that all minorities have been used as sources of cheap (or free) labor upon which the economic success of this country was built.
Ii personally believe that equality requires starting at the same level, and it cannot be denied that this is not the case.
White people are over represented in wealth and power in this country, to disconnect this fact from our history seems purposefully ignorant.
You can either believe that the history of racism in this country (perpetrated in government, corporations, the public sector, general population etc) which has been well-documented (though admittedly not widely taught) is responsible for this or you can believe that this is due to the innate inferiority of minorities that of course has nothing to do with the fact that African Americans gained the right to vote only 50 years or that all minorities have been used as sources of cheap (or free) labor upon which the economic success of this country was built.
Ii personally believe that equality requires starting at the same level, and it cannot be denied that this is not the case.
White people are over represented in wealth and power in this country, to disconnect this fact from our history seems purposefully ignorant.
yeaaaa, but you know as well as i do PLENTY of people are checking it just because they brag about how they're like "East Pacific Asian African Indian"
The worst part is kids at college BRAG when they have a non-represented racial heritage. These kids need to be hit (the ones who boast about how this system is helping them)
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key word, "average." Check out the absolute lowest scores from some of these schools on mdapps.
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yes race matter because there isn't a macro scale equality. sure ideally race shouldn't matter, but it's preposterous to suggest that because it shouldn't matter, we should take away mechanisms intended to make things more equitable.
URM and disadvantaged is a completely separate issue. i commend you on succesfully coming out of a less-than-ideal situation, you can surely write about it, and i bet it'll work in your favor for admissions.
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mdapp's is such a BS source, I can go on and say that I got into Harvard med with a 2.3/10.
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Physicians tend to go back to serve in the communities they have ties in like family ties etc, so physicians from underserved regions are more likey to serve in such regions than those who are not from such regions. Sometimes being medically underserved in the first place is the motivation to enter medicine and there's a strong tendency to go back and serve.
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I've never encountered those students you speak of. Most Hispanics and Blacks I know don't even think of becoming doctors because it's out of their league. Also, you seem to think that the MCAT is all there is to a medical school entrance. Not to brag or anything, but I was/am a horrible test taker because of my inability to concentrate under pressure. However, I've visited with psychologists and they say I'm very much above average intellectually wise than most students my age. I had a high score of 24 on my ACT and 1650 on my SAT. Also, I didn't even know of those college entrance exams until I was in the 12th grade because that's how bad our probabilities of going to college was that faculty wouldn't even inform students one had to take those exams before applying to a University. Who do I blame for not being able to score higher? The schools I attended which where deprived of a proper education curriculum. I basically had to push myself to the point where I am now.
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we discussed this in my lab, white girl known by one of my colleagues not only got into Hopkins, but with a full-ride because she was from the bad part of Baltimore. In addition, she had average stats.
There is no flaw, everyone can check disadvantaged and explain. In addition there are plenty of secondary questions that ask you to dive further into why you consider yourself disadvantaged or any major obstacle you had to deal with it life.
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And you think people are gonna tell you the truth in the classroom? I could say I got in with a 2.5 just to watch you and see your reaction to it.
Go on MDapps right now:
do a SEARCH
GPA between (1.0 and 3.1)
&
MCAT between (10 and 22)
results(12)
Asians: 1
Blacks: 1
Caucasians: 8
East Indians: 1
Hispanics: 1
Yea, I agree. Some people (like a poster above) just don't believe that these areas/regions, whatever you want to call them, exist. If people are going back to those kinds of areas, then I can see why a couple points less in scores is reasonable. They have something else that is valuable.
I understand there are poor test-takers and I've actually argued before how there SHOULD NOT be a standardized tests for schools, SAT OR MCAT lol.
I commend you for admitting you had a hard time getting to where you are and that you're still on here which shows you're about to (or already did) undertake the rigorous path to medical school.
-but, first, i have no idea how you HAVENT met this people. Some are just modest, but i've even spoken to a black friend of mine who joked with me about how much it helped him get into an ivyleague med school. and second, my main first post i feel is getting skewed, i used the MCAT as an example, but kept saying "mcat/gpa/ec" when i really just meant that the whole overall application of two people could be the same but if a under-rep. race is listed that person gets in.
And as for psychologists, of course they're gonna say that, you're paying them to tell you things that make you feel better
.-ok sorry, i apologize that was effed up, im just kidding, im sure you are very intelligent kid (no sarcasm, as i said, you are here applying, so, gl)
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I understand there are poor test-takers and I've actually argued before how there SHOULD NOT be a standardized tests for schools, SAT OR MCAT lol.
I commend you for admitting you had a hard time getting to where you are and that you're still on here which shows you're about to (or already did) undertake the rigorous path to medical school.
-but, first, i have no idea how you HAVENT met this people. Some are just modest, but i've even spoken to a black friend of mine who joked with me about how much it helped him get into an ivyleague med school. and second, my main first post i feel is getting skewed, i used the MCAT as an example, but kept saying "mcat/gpa/ec" when i really just meant that the whole overall application of two people could be the same but if a under-rep. race is listed that person gets in.
And as for psychologists, of course they're gonna say that, you're paying them to tell you things that make you feel better
-ok sorry, i apologize that was effed up, im just kidding, im sure you are very intelligent kid (no sarcasm, as i said, you are here applying, so, gl)
Why would they lie? I'm doing honors research with them and I'm not paying them a cent for their consultancy. They are my teachers and my mentors.
I'm actually ripping them off because they have to extra time with me to do this research.NICE lol. free medical advice. now THATs playing the system👍Why would they lie? I'm doing honors research with them and I'm not paying them a cent for their consultancy. They are my teachers and my mentors.
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URMs can come from anywhere, the box they check off doesn't mean they're coming from these places
URM is not about underserved areas. it's about underserved/represented populations.
I am an East Asian from a very impoverished family (parents did not go to college, they also earn less than $10,000 a year.) I live in government housing. Would I be considered URM? How do med schools even know my parents are poor? Do they search my address?
From my stats, many would just assume I am one of those overachieved Asians because I go to a top-10 college and did lots of math/science activities and research. I had to self-teach myself lots of things in life. Medicine was not something my parents wanted me to go into. They were happy with me going to a community college and becoming a teacher. I was the one who had to push myself and think of "larger than life" dreams that my parents never had for me.
I think all med schools should revise the URM definition to only include those who are economically disadvantaged. Most URMs I know are way wealthier and grew up in much nice neighborhoods than I did. If med schools allow blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans to get into med school with low MCATs and GPAs, then they are just implying that these groups are lower-performing than other racial groups. However, if they redefine URMs as those people from impoverished backgrounds, then accepting them despite low MCATs and GPAs is ok given that these kids grew up with fewer resources than other students. Furthermore, many poor students (black, Asian, white, w/e) usually become doctors who serve impoverished populations. There are lots of minorities who are patients, but that doesn't mean they should be served by only minority doctors. Look at Paul Farmer. He grew up with almost nothing. And now he is helping poor people not only in the US, but around the world and especially in developing countries.
I can go on forever about this, but I am not going to. I am just so hurt when I go to a med school website and look up their diversity statement and find that diversity only means geographic and racial diversity.
From my stats, many would just assume I am one of those overachieved Asians because I go to a top-10 college and did lots of math/science activities and research. I had to self-teach myself lots of things in life. Medicine was not something my parents wanted me to go into. They were happy with me going to a community college and becoming a teacher. I was the one who had to push myself and think of "larger than life" dreams that my parents never had for me.
I think all med schools should revise the URM definition to only include those who are economically disadvantaged. Most URMs I know are way wealthier and grew up in much nice neighborhoods than I did. If med schools allow blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans to get into med school with low MCATs and GPAs, then they are just implying that these groups are lower-performing than other racial groups. However, if they redefine URMs as those people from impoverished backgrounds, then accepting them despite low MCATs and GPAs is ok given that these kids grew up with fewer resources than other students. Furthermore, many poor students (black, Asian, white, w/e) usually become doctors who serve impoverished populations. There are lots of minorities who are patients, but that doesn't mean they should be served by only minority doctors. Look at Paul Farmer. He grew up with almost nothing. And now he is helping poor people not only in the US, but around the world and especially in developing countries.
I can go on forever about this, but I am not going to. I am just so hurt when I go to a med school website and look up their diversity statement and find that diversity only means geographic and racial diversity.
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For some perspective, I've posted this and I'll post it again bcos some sense of the numbers is always useful. Even if all the seats of black/hispanic matriculants were given to whites, there would still be >23,000 white applicants who won't matriculate into US MD schools. Blaming minorites for the white applicants who fail to matriculate is really ridiculous.
See attached excel file...
See attached excel file...
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You and me both. Our feelings don't have any meanings though, since we're Asian robots.
Who was it that said a single death is a tragedy, but a million is a statistics?
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OH MY GOD PEOPLE FOR THE LAST TIME URM and DISADVANTAGED ARE SEPARATE BOXES
But these underserved/represented populations tend to be in concentrated areas that are underserved? At least in this country, there is a correlation between URM and underserved populations, no? I don't know this so you tell me.
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Unfortunately for us, the medical education establishment is not primarily concerned with making the admissions process "fair" for premeds. They are concerned with improving the health of the nation as a whole which, among other things, includes balancing out disparities in health care access. They have determined that increasing the number of physicians from under represented minority groups will help accomplish this. If that means fewer seats for over represented groups, then so be it.
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Sometimes they correlate think indian reservations and URM indians, inner cities and URM blacks/hispanics but in other cases they don't think rural areas and whites...
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Lol it didn't take long did it?
And nothing is really fair as far as the pre-med process goes unless it is just the MCAT. GPA can vary widely for many different reasons. Also some URMs have a harder time getting jobs than their ORM conterparts outside the academic realm.
And nothing is really fair as far as the pre-med process goes unless it is just the MCAT. GPA can vary widely for many different reasons. Also some URMs have a harder time getting jobs than their ORM conterparts outside the academic realm.
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this should be sticked somewhere.
But the first things you listed are greater in number than the latter?
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This is a good point. Many people approach the educational process with a capitalism attitude--Im going to compete and, assuming all else is fair, whoever wins is the best competitor. Educational institutions have ulterior motives and goals, beyond reaching a basic competency (which GPA/MCAT provide), you are good enough to go to med school. Whether or not you get in depends on which angle you play (eg academic research, serving the underserved compassionate rural physician etc) and how well you compete for that angle.
If you go in trying to come off as a academic-oriented physician, you better have the experiences, publications, GPA/MCAT to back it up. If you try the underserved route, you need to have the volunteer hours in the right places and a fluent writing ability to convey your passion. If you dont really play an angle then there is no reason for a school to even consider you because you arent fulfilling their goal.
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Also plenty of ORMs with low and mediocre stats get accepted into medical school.
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Elaborate, what's in greater number? I didn't get your point....
This is the major difference between African-American and children of African immigrants or international students who are African.
My father is a medical doctor and I grew up fratenizing with children of doctors, lawyers, engineers, business people e.t.c
I knew I was going to succeed just because my parents provided great role models for me. Of course, they instilled in me the values of hardwork and educational attainment.
However, my parents did not have the privilege I did (my grandparents were poor and had minimal formal education). They always said it was such a struggle to get where they are and it was even more painful, knowing their own parents could not understand or be of any help.
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I don't think practice location matters as much as what a doctor is willing to do to reach out to certain communities.
Outside of the big cities (eg. New York, Chicago) large groups of URM populations aren't really that isolated (locationwise) from affluent populations and quality doctors/hospitals, but their access is still limited.
I'll use myself as an example; I lived in an area with ~4 medium-large hospitals and a countless number of clinics within a 15 mile radius of my house, but in order to get treatment for my illness which affects URM's disproportionally I had to travel ~100 miles south to the closest specialist/hospital that had experience with the illness and accepted medicaid, even in emergency cases, I would be given fluids/pain meds at my local hospital, then put in an ambulance to go to that hospital/specialist that was 100 miles away. When the doctor realized that his was the only clinic serving a fairly large population of patients in my area, he started doing bimonthly trips to a closer clinic in order to see all of the patients in my area, and for emergency situations he now writes instructions and even takes calls from hospitals in my area and gives consults(which I'm pretty sure he doesn't get paid for). The doctor in this case is asian btw, but it could be argued that if there were more physicians willing to serve underserved populations (accept medicaid, show an interest in illnesses that disproportionally affect them) regardless of location,one doctor wouldn't have to be stretched so thin.
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this👍👍👍
I think many applicants underestimate this, one needs to understand the school's mission, values and package urself to be a "fit" for them.
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This is probably the best discussion of URM status and opinion that I have seen in my time on SDN (no outwardly racist sentiments and people generally presenting solid opinion and interest in responses). Kudos everyone.
Asian here; don't like the whole URM idea cause it's not fair to me 😀 Just because I was born an Asian and my race is already represented in the field now jeopardize my chance of getting in the med school? Asians are represented, so what? I have the same passion and compassion as everyone else; I worked just as hard, if not harder, than other pre-meds. I believe I will be a good doctor. That's what med school admission should look for, NOT RACE.
Anyway, I'll stop all the enrage comments and give out some rational opinions. If the purpose of the URM idea is to increase the representation and healthcare access of certain population/locations/races, fine, it's reasonable. But right now, the problem is there are no regulations to force the URM graduates to serve in those areas. So it turns out that people (URM) take advantages of this policy and not solving the underserved issue.
If there is a contract that URM matriculants have to sign stating that they are committed to serve in underserved or areas in which that can increase the healthcare access of their race, I'm sure all the URM cries on here will stop, instantly. If you are Hispanic, African-American, or Puerto Rican who doesn't want to solve the underserved issue, fine, don't apply as an URM, what's the point if you are not solving the issue.
Army scholarship is really good example. If you want to take advantage of the scholarship, well, serve them back. If you want to take advantage of your race, well, serve your people!!
Anyway, I'll stop all the enrage comments and give out some rational opinions. If the purpose of the URM idea is to increase the representation and healthcare access of certain population/locations/races, fine, it's reasonable. But right now, the problem is there are no regulations to force the URM graduates to serve in those areas. So it turns out that people (URM) take advantages of this policy and not solving the underserved issue.
If there is a contract that URM matriculants have to sign stating that they are committed to serve in underserved or areas in which that can increase the healthcare access of their race, I'm sure all the URM cries on here will stop, instantly. If you are Hispanic, African-American, or Puerto Rican who doesn't want to solve the underserved issue, fine, don't apply as an URM, what's the point if you are not solving the issue.
Army scholarship is really good example. If you want to take advantage of the scholarship, well, serve them back. If you want to take advantage of your race, well, serve your people!!
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Yup.
So because a person happens to be Native American, Black, or Hispanic, you are saying that they have no choice but to serve those communities?...Are whites who come from rural areas going to be forced to serve the rural communities too? I wasn't aware that URMs actually checked a box that said they were URM. By virtue of being an UNDERREPRESENTED MINORITY, you are URM.
But, maybe I'm wrong.
But, maybe I'm wrong.
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