What is this whole URM thing?

[Morsetlis]

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You must have a low verbal score.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Asian here; don't like the whole URM idea cause it's not fair to me 😀 Just because I was born an Asian and my race is already represented in the field now jeopardize my chance of getting in the med school? Asians are represented, so what? I have the same passion and compassion as everyone else; I worked just as hard, if not harder, than other pre-meds. I believe I will be a good doctor. That's what med school admission should look for, NOT RACE.
Anyway, I'll stop all the enrage comments and give out some rational opinions. If the purpose of the URM idea is to increase the representation and healthcare access of certain population/locations/races, fine, it's reasonable. But right now, the problem is there are no regulations to force the URM graduates to serve in those areas. So it turns out that people (URM) take advantages of this policy and not solving the underserved issue.
If there is a contract that URM matriculants have to sign stating that they are committed to serve in underserved or areas in which that can increase the healthcare access of their race, I'm sure all the URM cries on here will stop, instantly. If you are Hispanic, African-American, or Puerto Rican who doesn't want to solve the underserved issue, fine, don't apply as an URM, what's the point if you are not solving the issue.
Army scholarship is really good example. If you want to take advantage of the scholarship, well, serve them back. If you want to take advantage of your race, well, serve your people!!

Very good points.

 

[lorenzomicron]

Asian here; don't like the whole URM idea cause it's not fair to me 😀 Just because I was born an Asian and my race is already represented in the field now jeopardize my chance of getting in the med school? Asians are represented, so what? I have the same passion and compassion as everyone else; I worked just as hard, if not harder, than other pre-meds. I believe I will be a good doctor. That's what med school admission should look for, NOT RACE.
Anyway, I'll stop all the enrage comments and give out some rational opinions. If the purpose of the URM idea is to increase the representation and healthcare access of certain population/locations/races, fine, it's reasonable. But right now, the problem is there are no regulations to force the URM graduates to serve in those areas. So it turns out that people (URM) take advantages of this policy and not solving the underserved issue.
If there is a contract that URM matriculants have to sign stating that they are committed to serve in underserved or areas in which that can increase the healthcare access of their race, I'm sure all the URM cries on here will stop, instantly. If you are Hispanic, African-American, or Puerto Rican who doesn't want to solve the underserved issue, fine, don't apply as an URM, what's the point if you are not solving the issue.
Army scholarship is really good example. If you want to take advantage of the scholarship, well, serve them back. If you want to take advantage of your race, well, serve your people!!

I agree with a lot of things you say, but you seem to lose track of what could happen when you say "If you want to take advantage of your race, well, serve your people". I still don't believe that that's what it's really all about; not what you said, but the reasoning and presentation behind seem very much like empty rhetoric of sorts to be completely honest.

"If you want to take advantage of your race, well, serve your people!!": Why does this remind me so much of racial segregation?

Don't mean to rag on you, but that's kinda what it's about isn't it?

 

[Morsetlis]

If they want to take advantage of URM status, they should serve minorities. It'd be a quid-pro-quo system that would ensure the Hispanic matriculant with a 3.3/25 doesn't go off into Pathology or something.

And it wasn't "our" idea of racial segregation to begin with. You'll notice testimonies from the URM community about how old minority people are afraid/disinclined to go see white doctors.

 

[sewcurious]

So because a person happens to be Native American, Black, or Hispanic, you are saying that they have no choice but to serve those communities?...Are whites who come from rural areas going to be forced to serve the rural communities too? I wasn't aware that URMs actually checked a box that said they were URM. By virtue of being an UNDERREPRESENTED MINORITY, you are URM.

But, maybe I'm wrong.

They have a choice, but they are much more likely to work in underserved areas (which generally have large minority populations)

 

[sewcurious]

If they want to take advantage of URM status, they should serve minorities. It'd be a quid-pro-quo system that would ensure the Hispanic matriculant with a 3.3/25 doesn't go off into Pathology or something.

And it wasn't "our" idea of racial segregation to begin with. You'll notice testimonies from the URM community about how old minority people are afraid/disinclined to go see white doctors.

I'm confused at this reasoning. Why should they be forced to serve anywhere? White people aren't forced to serve whites after they graduate (though they generally do).

URMs who are admitted are not being given a hand out. Being a URM student I wanted to be sure this was clear. They are generally competitive with the other members of their class, and often URM applicants have stats above the class average. What right does a (likely majority white) admissions board have to say that one person was let in because of their race and the other wasn't? And even if they could form these arbitrary criteria I still don't think it matters. That would never even be considered for white students, who have also benefited greatly from their racial backgrounds in different ways, throughout their lives

 

[LizzyM]

If they want to take advantage of URM status, they should serve minorities. It'd be a quid-pro-quo system that would ensure the Hispanic matriculant with a 3.3/25 doesn't go off into Pathology or something.

And it wasn't "our" idea of racial segregation to begin with. You'll notice testimonies from the URM community about how old minority people are afraid/disinclined to go see white doctors.

No one "takes advantage" of URM status. You either self-report your race and ethnicity or you don't. Schools take this into account as they please taking into account the school's mission, anti-discrimination law and local needs.

I am not African-American, Chinese nor am I Hispanic but my doctors have been and I am glad that they were not limited to serving people of a particular race or ethnicity. (How absurd!)

 

[whimsical]

URMs who are admitted are not being given a hand out. Being a URM student I wanted to be sure this was clear. They are generally competitive with the other members of their class, and often URM applicants have stats above the class average. What (like majority white) admissions board to say that one person was let in because of their race and the other wasn't? That would never even be considered for white students, who have also benefited from their racial backgrounds in different ways.

I wanted to quote this because it was one of the only things that bothered me while reading this thread (which has actually been really civil, for once). If I report my ethnicity on my AMCAS, it's because where I'm from and my heritage are part of why I want to be a physician, and they're important to me - not because I want a handout, or because I think I should get in on my race alone. While some URMs may have low stats, so do many non-URMs, and we shouldn't generalize based on a few.

 

[aDreamer]

If they want to take advantage of URM status, they should serve minorities. It'd be a quid-pro-quo system that would ensure the Hispanic matriculant with a 3.3/25 doesn't go off into Pathology or something.

And it wasn't "our" idea of racial segregation to begin with. You'll notice testimonies from the URM community about how old minority people are afraid/disinclined to go see white doctors.

Wow. Quick reality check my friend:

"The Jim Crow laws were state and local laws in the United States enacted between 1876 and 1965. They mandated de jure racial segregation in all public facilities, with a supposedly "separate but equal" status for black Americans. In reality, this led to treatment and accommodations that were usually inferior to those provided for white Americans, systematizing a number of economic, educational and social disadvantages." (Wikipedia)

Thinking like yours leads down a dangerous road. For all of you who are taking the stance that minority doctors should be forced by contract to only help minority patients and white doctors should only help white patients you should just recognize what that sounds like...scary to hear that from this generation's mouths.

And as far as the it wasn't "our" idea line...it's 2010. The divisive language needs to go. We should all be on the same side, trying to make this country healthier--let's not lose sight of that.

If the AAMC believes that increasing the presence of minorities in medicine will improve the health of this nation (seeing as how minorities are overly-represented in terms of poor health), I am going to trust their years of research/probing into the issue much more than I am going to trust the voices of a few gunner premeds so caught up in the narrow scope of their own personal gain that they refuse to imagine the bigger implications to the millions of sick in this country of not having a voice/representation in our healthcare system.

I'm guessing the AAMC has a bit more objectivity...

 

[lorenzomicron]

Wow. Quick reality check my friend:

"The Jim Crow laws were state and local laws in the United States enacted between 1876 and 1965. They mandated de jure racial segregation in all public facilities, with a supposedly "separate but equal" status for black Americans. In reality, this led to treatment and accommodations that were usually inferior to those provided for white Americans, systematizing a number of economic, educational and social disadvantages." (Wikipedia)

Thinking like yours leads down a dangerous road. For all of you who are taking the stance that minority doctors should be forced by contract to only help minority patients and white doctors should only help white patients you should just recognize what that sounds like...scary to hear that from this generation's mouths.

And as far as the it wasn't "our" idea line...it's 2010. The divisive language needs to go. We should all be on the same side, trying to make this country healthier--let's not lose sight of that.

If the AAMC believes that increasing the presence of minorities in medicine will improve the health of this nation (seeing as how minorities are overly-represented in terms of poor health), I am going to trust their years of research/probing into the issue much more than I am going to trust the voices of a few gunner premeds so caught up in the narrow scope of their own personal gain that they refuse to imagine the bigger implications to the millions of sick in this country of not having a voice/representation in our healthcare system.

I'm guessing the AAMC has a bit more objectivity...

I think you've just owned this thread.

 

[flip26]

Haven't slogged through the entire thread, but as a lily white applicant, I do not concern myself in the least with URM status and how it affects admissions.

Nobody is taking a seat away from me because of their URM status - I am competing with the pool of applicants generally, but in reality, my competition comes from the pool of applicants of the same sex and non-URM status, along with other factors (where I went to college, my GPA and MCAT, my ECs, my LORs, etc).

URMs more directly compete with other URMs, but they also have to be generally competitive with the broader applicant pool, too.

The endless debating and handwringing over this topic escapes me.

 

[LizzyM]

I would add that private facilities were segregated as well or denied services to black patrons.

My mother worked in a Catholic hosptial in Virginia in the early 1950s. Black and white patients there were never placed in the same room (as roommates) something she'd not experienced in the northern US.

Of course, denial of services at Woolworth's lunch counter in North Carolina in 1960 led to a famous sit-in that resulted in desegregation of Woolworth's lunch counters.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/brown/history/6-legacy/freedom-struggle-2.html

 

[Morsetlis]

For all of you who are taking the stance that minority doctors should be forced by contract to only help minority patients and white doctors should only help white patients you should just recognize what that sounds like...scary to hear that from this generation's mouths.

Failure to understand the written word. "If they want to take advantage of URM status, they should serve minorities" contains a qualifier, if, without which the "they should serve minorities" part is invalid.

Consider the military HPSP or National Health Service Corps for a better analogy of what I am arguing for.

Nobody is taking a seat away from me because of their URM status

Failure to understand economics.

No one "takes advantage" of URM status. You either self-report your race and ethnicity or you don't. Schools take this into account as they please taking into account the school's mission, anti-discrimination law and local needs.

So by the same argument, nobody takes advantage of welfare. They just either report unemployment or they don't, and they either submit some forms or they don't, and the government takes this into account with its bylaws and regulations and decide whether to send them a welfare check or not.

I'm not blaming URM's, by the way. I just disagree with specific actions taken by certain schools to grant additional considerations/points to URM's by basis of race alone.

I'm guessing the AAMC has a bit more objectivity...

Hardly matters. The decision would belong to the individual schools and their admission policies/committees. After all, the AAMC only reports what the applicant actually submitted. They don't exactly decide who gets reviewed or how they get reviewed.

The divisive language needs to go.

I'm sorry you feel the need to tell other people to shut up when their viewpoints don't align with yours.

I don't particularly care about diversity and culture, so forgive me if I somehow think the private parts of a person's life, such as race, gender, creed, and sexuality should be kept private and not be flaunted or used as an instrument of social agenda.

 

[flip26]

If they want to take advantage of URM status, they should serve minorities. It'd be a quid-pro-quo system that would ensure the Hispanic matriculant with a 3.3/25 doesn't go off into Pathology or something.

And it wasn't "our" idea of racial segregation to begin with. You'll notice testimonies from the URM community about how old minority people are afraid/disinclined to go see white doctors.

Using your logic, should someone who "takes advantage" of their state residency to gain acceptance to their state med school be required to serve the residents of their state?

If I go to my state medical school where my residency status gave me preferential treatment in admissions, should I be restricted in my choice of specialties, not to mention my choice of where I want to live? If the hispanic matriculant shouldn't be allowed to "go off into Pathology or something," should I similarly be restricted?

 

[flip26]

I don't particularly care about diversity and culture, so forgive me if I somehow think the private parts of a person's life, such as race, gender, creed, and sexuality should be kept private and not be flaunted or used as an instrument of social agenda.

Failure to understand the world we live in.

 

[Morsetlis]

Using your logic, should someone who "takes advantage" of their state residency to gain acceptance to their state med school be required to serve the residents of their state?

Yes. I don't see a problem with this. Why do you?

Would you allow all the unemployed Italian doctors (and there are many due to lax admission requirements and a projected need for physicians two decades ago) to work in the US?

Maybe you don't see the illogic involved when something is gained for nothing, but I do. Now, whether this is useful to a greater humanistic cause or not would be a normative political agenda that I'm not arguing for/against, specifically, but you should see the bare contradictions to the principles of fairness when presented with the facts.

 

[Morsetlis]

Failure to understand the world we live in.

This is a mental exercise. You have no actual arguments. I don't need to change the world or win the favors of other people through my work--nor can I, at this stage. I just want to see if there are in fact proper responses that can assail my position--and there aren't.

 

[Rach83]

This is a mental exercise. You have no actual arguments. I don't need to change the world or win the favors of other people through my work--nor can I, at this stage. I just want to see if there are in fact proper responses that can assail my position--and there aren't.

The advantage a person gets from being IS, URM, or disadvantaged (URM or ORM) doesn't seem to be substantial enough to then force the person to practice with a certain population, or in a certain state. The higher likelihood of URM applicants serving minority populations, in-state applicants remaining in their state, or disadvantage people serving disadvantaged populations, seems to be enough pay-back for the corresponding advantage.

I don't know much about the military HPSP or National Health Service Corps thing but if I'm not mistaken, these programs provide students with $$ or free education (if this is wrong, then ignore what's coming next). IMO, money and free schooling are a hell of a lot more valuable than whatever advantage a person can get from being in-state, disadvantaged, or URM. So, I think it's ok to demand that someone practice in a certain place if they've been given a large sum of money and are a big investment for whoever is providing the funding.

 

[lorenzomicron]

The higher likelihood of URM applicants serving minority populations, in-state applicants remaining in their state, or disadvantage people serving disadvantaged populations, seems to be enough pay-back for the corresponding advantage.

I agree with you, but just to examine another side of the issue.
Someone could email Med School "I will commit 20 years to the worst hospital in your state. " Should the person have an honorary-URM status?

 

[Rach83]

I agree with you, but just to examine another side of the issue.
Someone could email Med School "I will commit 20 years to the worst hospital in your state. " Should the person have an honorary-URM status?

Well if previous experience shows that someone who emails has a higher likelihood of working in the worst hospital than someone who didn't email, maybe they should get a slight advantage. 😛
In all seriousness, forget the emailing part, just think about the people (regardless of race or disadvantaged status) who express their intentions of working with disadvantaged populations through their personal statements or ECs. I'm pretty sure it will give them a slight edge in the admissions process. The higher likelihood of them working with disadvantaged populations probably helps them out.

 

[LizzyM]

Let me put this another way. Each of us has our life experiences. Medical schools believe that students with different life experiences can learn from each other and therefore be better doctors to people with similar life experiences. In addition, people with specific life experiences have a hard time finding doctors: doctors either don't understand their life experiences and how these play into determining their health status, or doctors don't want to live and practice in areas where people with these life experiences live, or the people with these life experiences don't trust doctors who haven't had similar life experiences or have felt discriminated against by doctors who don't share their life experiences.

Now these life experiences can be any number of things including race, religious practices, rural or inner-city living, gender identity/sexual practices. Should a medical school aspire to acheive a class that is diversified so that all can learn about people who are different from themselves and prepare to serve the people all physicians are called to serve (in otherwords, everyone is expected to be capable and competent to serve racial, ethnic and sexual minorities)? Is there something unfair about a medical school's aspirations as I've described them?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I don't particularly care about diversity and culture, so forgive me if I somehow think the private parts of a person's life, such as race, gender, creed, and sexuality should be kept private and not be flaunted or used as an instrument of social agenda.

cool story bro, but medical schools do, and it's their game so you can either play it or leave it. no offense, but nobody cares what you think, yet. and race and gender are personal, but not private.

PS. i'm surprised to see LizzyM continuing to step into this fray, so i'm going to go out on a limb and say she and other adcoms feel strongly about this and no amount of crying foul by premeds is going to change anything

 

[Rach83]

Now these life experiences can be any number of things including race, religious practices, rural or inner-city living, gender identity/sexual practices. Should a medical school aspire to acheive a class that is diversified so that all can learn about people who are different from themselves and prepare to serve the people all physicians are called to serve (in otherwords, everyone is expected to be capable and competent to serve racial, ethnic and sexual minorities)? Is there something unfair about a medical school's aspirations as I've described them?

Exactly. I hope to be part of a diverse class (not just ethnic/racial diversity) because I know my classmates will help me become a more open-minded person, and a more competent physician. It's a win-win. We become better docs, and patients have more well-rounded physicians.

 

[flip26]

Yes. I don't see a problem with this. Why do you?

Would you allow all the unemployed Italian doctors (and there are many due to lax admission requirements and a projected need for physicians two decades ago) to work in the US?

Maybe you don't see the illogic involved when something is gained for nothing, but I do. Now, whether this is useful to a greater humanistic cause or not would be a normative political agenda that I'm not arguing for/against, specifically, but you should see the bare contradictions to the principles of fairness when presented with the facts.

You have no facts, only a personal bias. You are most assuredly arguing against the "normative political agenda" as you put it.

I compared the advantage an instate resident has gaining admissions to his state med school to the supposed advantage that URMs have in this process over non-URMs. Again, you fail to see the connection - there are advantages conferred on different groups depending on their life experiences, their race, or their state of residency.

I got zero problems with any of it. Med schools are entitled to fill their incoming classes anyway they see fit as far as I am concerned, including taking into consideration diversity of race and life experience. Similarly, states that fund their public med schools are entitled to influence the admissions process with respect to instate residents getting favorable treatment, etc.

 

[sewcurious]

Maybe you don't see the illogic involved when something is gained for nothing,
but I do.

Really? "Nothing"? Every URM admitted to med school got something for nothing? I think it is interesting that you are cannot empathize and see how ridiculously insulting that is. Funnily enough, this is an example of why URM status is important. It does not seem like you would be able to relate to URM patients, which is your choice but they still need doctors and shouldn't be prevented because racial discrimination is still a huge, widely accepted part of American culture (as shown in your statement)...so much so that we've begun to claim it doesn't matter.

You may decide that only people who have had the advantages you have had (because to imagine that being causcasian hasn't provided you with advantages is just willfully ignorant) are deserving of what they get. That is fine but don't act like it is some philosophically superior position. It is simply seems the same old party line in which the racism in this county is ignored or marginalized.

Luckily my URM status (and only that) has allowed me to get a spot in a great med school. But don't worry I plan on working with underserved populations, so I'm sure I won't "steal" your spot a second time for residency. Hope that is a comfort.

BTW how come only URMs get into med school based on purely on race and them pass med school, residency, etc? how much is undeserved? Once I get to med school how long am I required to feel bad about it? when can I start claiming that I did things but not my race? Since you have clearly decided to dictate the aspects of other peoples lives that are or aren't relevant (simply because you cannot recognize how it was relevant in your life), I'm just wondering if there is a time limit or if my entire career will be the result of my race.

Frankly, given that race is a socially constructed idea, all of this seems ridiculous. Many black and hispanic people (perhaps including myself) are more than 50% "white". SO does that make it okay, if he balck people are mostly Caucasion, or do they need to be pure-blooded? Remember it is a white society that established that the "one drop rule" was how race would be decided. Really all this seems tantamount to arguing over the shape of smoke, because it will change again (perhaps sooner than we think).

 

[mfrizzo3]

Hmmmmm.......

 

[flip26]

Really? "Nothing"? Every URM admitted to med school got something for nothing? I think it is interesting that you are cannot empathize and see how ridiculously insulting that is. Funnily enough, this is an example of why URM status is important. It does not seem like you would be able to relate to URM patients, which is your choice but they still need doctors and shouldn't be prevented because racial discrimination is still a huge, widely accepted part of American culture (as shown in your statement)...so much so that we've begun to claim it doesn't matter.

You may decide that only people who have had the advantages you have had (because to imagine that being causcasian hasn't provided you with advantages is just willfully ignorant) are deserving of what thy get. That is fine but don't act like it is some philosophically superior position. It is simply seems the same old party line in which the racism in this county is ignored or marginalized.

Luckily my URM status (and only that) has allowed me to get a spot in a great med school. But don't worry I plan on working with underserved populations, so I'm sure I won't "steal" your spot a second time for residency. Hope that is a comfort.

BTW how come only URMs get into med school based on purely on race and them pass med school, residency, etc how much is undeserved once I get to med school can I claim that I did things but not my race?

Please correct the quote - not sure how you screwed it up, but I did not write this...

 

[sewcurious]

fixed

not sure how you screwed it up, but I did not write this...

mistake

 

[flip26]

fixed



mistake

Thanks.

I say enough crazy **** on SDN on my own, don't need some nutbar's stuff attributed to me...

 

[Tutmos]

I can see the need for the URM status. The unfortunate reality is some people don't trust anyone unless they look the same, white, black, asian what have you. While it may be bigoted, unfair and irrational it's not the medical communities job to make moral judgments about people. If there's a need for health care in a population of our country, regardless of how much we may disagree with their ideology or morals we still need to meet that need. Your job as a doctor is not to tell people what is morally right or wrong but how to be healthy and help them achieve that, no matter what's in their head.

I actually like the idea of attaching URM status use to fixed periods of service in those communities that are the genesis for URM status to begin with. Those students that have no interest in serving such areas could apply without mention of race and stand on their own academic merits, just like everyone from non-URM groups, and be treated the same.

I'm interested to hear what people think about wealthy URM's coming from outside the US, without having any disadvantage, gaining residency and taking advantage of the URM status. In my opinion the URM mechanism breaks down and is being exploited in these cases. I can sum it up with a classic phrase,

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

 

[flip26]

I can see the need for the URM status. The unfortunate reality is some people don't trust anyone unless they look the same, white, black, asian what have you. While it may be bigoted, unfair and irrational it's not the medical communities job to make moral judgments about people. If there's a need for health care in a population of our country, regardless of how much we may disagree with their ideology or morals we still need to meet that need. Your job as a doctor is not to tell people what is morally right or wrong but how to be healthy and help them achieve that, no matter what's in their head.

I actually like the idea of attaching URM status use to fixed periods of service in those communities that are the genesis for URM status to begin with. Those students that have no interest in serving such areas could apply without mention of race and stand on their own academic merits, just like everyone from non-URM groups, and be treated the same.

I'm interested to hear what people think about wealthy URM's coming from outside the US, without having any disadvantage, gaining residency and taking advantage of the URM status. In my opinion the URM mechanism breaks down and is being exploited in these cases. I can sum it up with a classic phrase,

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

How many such cases do you think there are? I seriously doubt if this is anything but a rare case.

My guess is there are far more applicants already living here who have URM status who come from upper middle class or even wealthy families.

 

[sewcurious]

I can see the need for the URM status. The unfortunate reality is some people don't trust anyone unless they look the same, white, black, asian what have you. While it may be bigoted, unfair and irrational it's not the medical communities job to make moral judgments about people. If there's a need for health care in a population of our country, regardless of how much we may disagree with their ideology or morals we still need to meet that need. Your job as a doctor is not to tell people what is morally right or wrong but how to be healthy and help them achieve that, no matter what's in their head.

I actually like the idea of attaching URM status use to fixed periods of service in those communities that are the genesis for URM status to begin with. Those students that have no interest in serving such areas could apply without mention of race and stand on their own academic merits, just like everyone from non-URM groups, and be treated the same.

I'm interested to hear what people think about wealthy URM's coming from outside the US, without having any disadvantage, gaining residency and taking advantage of the URM status. In my opinion the URM mechanism breaks down and is being exploited in these cases. I can sum it up with a classic phrase,

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

I don not understand how people continually fail to realize how their own racial biases affect their view of this issue. I do not understand why it is assumed that URM status being a positive in this situation counteracts the positives associated with being white fo YOUR ENTIRE LIFE. This is simply the status quo where white as the norm, we see it everywhere in the media. Because everyone else is considered the "other" you feel racial minorities are required to prove themselves to you. FOr example why was Justice Sotomayor required to comment on her Latina perspective when no white male Suprmem Court has had their own racial biases questioned?

What do have you had to prove to minorities about because of being white? Nothing. What right do you have to dictate what was or was not influential in SOMEONE ELSE'S life?? None.

You have to understand that being born in America, minorities know and understand much more Caucasian-American culture than vice versa because the majority of mainstream media is dedicated to the issues of white people. We are bombarded with the idea that we are the "other" from the moment we are born, somehow different and inferior. How on earth can you claim from this position to be able to provide any legitimate judgement on how URMs should be treated in ANY situation?

 

[chessknt]

FOr example why was Justice Sotomayor required to comment on her Latina perspective when no white male Suprmem Court has had their own racial biases questioned?

Because she was on the record for having said "I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life."

In this context it was wholly appropriate to pursue this avenue of questioning. If a white judge had said the converse there is a 100000000% chance he would have never cleared the approval process. Our culture is hypersensitive to racial issues for whatever reason, Hell even Joe Wilson was accused of racism for telling Obama that he lied (when he actuyally did). What is racist about saying you lie? I am glad to see that at least someone paid attention to her comments and called her out on it.

 

[Tutmos]

I don not understand how people continually fail to realize how their own racial biases affect their view of this issue.

As you were replying to me, what in the world are you talking about? Did you just assume I said things without bothering to read and understand what I had actually said? Maybe I did a bad job of explaining something. How about telling me where the bias was.

I do not understand why it is assumed that URM status being a positive in this situation counteracts the positives associated with being white fo YOUR ENTIRE LIFE.

Again I don't understand how this relates to my post, but it does make me wonder about your world view. Do you feel that whites should be punished for their race or something? I think you misunderstand what URM is. It's not a general affirmative action program to create social justice. It means Under Represented Minority. It's addressing the issue of the medical field lacking some ethnic groups in such large proportions that they need to give a little nudge to try and produce a more representative population of doctors. It's not a pay back program.

This is simply the status quo where white as the norm, we see it everywhere in the media. Because everyone else is considered the "other" you feel racial minorities are required to prove themselves to you.

Maybe you could explain Asians then. They're a minority as well.

FOr example why was Justice Sotomayor required to comment on her Latina perspective when no white male Suprmem Court has had their own racial biases questioned?

Because she's a racist that thinks she can make better decisions due to her race. As someone else mentioned any white person that had the ignorance to make such a claim would never even have been considered. I'm amazed she got in after such a comment considering the law is supposed to be color blind. I would say she's there BECAUSE of her race, not in spite of it.

What do have you had to prove to minorities about because of being white? Nothing. What right do you have to dictate what was or was not influential in SOMEONE ELSE'S life?? None.

Again you don't understand what the URM status is, it's not a reward for the applicant's perceived suffering, it's trying to meet a need in the medical community and what you clearly didn't get was that my opening paragraph explained how I can see the need for it.

You have to understand that being born in America, minorities know and understand much more Caucasian-American culture than vice versa because the majority of mainstream media is dedicated to the issues of white people. We are bombarded with the idea that we are the "other" from the moment we are born, somehow different and inferior. How on earth can you claim from this position to be able to provide any legitimate judgment on how URMs should be treated in ANY situation?

How can you possibly explain Asian Americans if this is the case? For the last time URM is not affirmative action, designed to right some wrongs. I also think you need to consider a little more about exactly what "Caucasian-American" culture really is. It's an amalgamation of a huge variety of cultures. There is no broad worldwide "white" culture. The mainstream culture tends to incorporate bits and pieces of almost every group. Black culture has been heavily incorporated into the mainstream over the past 30 years but you wouldn't recognize that. Next time don't assume what people mean without reading what they wrote.

 

[sewcurious]

As you were replying to me, what in the world are you talking about? Did you just assume I said things without bothering to read and understand what I had actually said? Maybe I did a bad job of explaining something. How about telling me where the bias was.

My entire post explained the bias

Again I don't understand how this relates to my post, but it does make me wonder about your world view. Do you feel that whites should be punished for their race or something?

No that is not what I am saying at all. I don't think URM status eing considered is a punishment.

I think you misunderstand what URM is. It's not a general affirmative action program to create social justice. It means Under Represented Minority. It's addressing the issue of the medical field lacking some ethnic groups in such large proportions that they need to give a little nudge to try and produce a more representative population of doctors. It's not a pay back program.

I am aware of that, but clearly most of the problems people have with the program is an assumption that it is AA, people think they are having their spots taken because URM status is considered.

Because she's a racist that thinks she can make better decisions due to her race. As someone else mentioned any white person that had the ignorance to make such a claim would never even have been considered. I'm amazed she got in after such a comment considering the law is supposed to be color blind. As someone else mentioned any white person that had the ignorance to make such a claim would never even have been considered.

Really a racist? You think that senators would have approved a racist? The reason no white person would be elected isn't necessarily because that isn't a widely held belief, it is because in this country pretending race doesnt exist is more important then addressing it. Think of what happened to Reid when what he said about Obama came out, why were people pretending he was the only one thinking it?

I'm amazed she got in after such a comment considering the law is supposed to be color blind.

Really?!?! That is my point. It is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to not be influenced by their personal background. Slavery, Jim Crow, internment camps, these were all legal government-sanctioned oppressions that were allowed. It is sad that our legal system is based on something so absolutely ridiculous, having studied Neuroscince my entire undergrad educaton was a relization of how much of our behaviors and responses are outside of our conscious control. For example, Americans (black and white) have a strong fear response to black men immediately upon seeing them. Our biases are hardwired by our culutre (everyone should try this test to see their own: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/selectatest.html). Do you really think the fact that Black people are convicted of the same crimes and given harsher punishments for the same crimes as whites (which have been the case since the before the FOUNDING OF AMERICA) is the result of an impartial system?

I would say she's there BECAUSE of her race, not in spite of it.

It is not a surprise that you believe that, I would suggest you research her backgrounds and how hard she had to work before dismissing everything she has done to be her race.

Again you don't understand what the URM status is, it's not a reward for the applicant's perceived suffering, it's trying to meet a need in the medical community and what you clearly didn't get was that my opening paragraph explained how I can see the need for it.

see above, I know this. i did understand that you saw a need for it, my problem was that you felt that white people had the right to control in any way what a URM applicant does once they leave. I am all for URMs going back to work in disadvantaged communties, it is what I plan to do. It just seems scary that white people are telling black people they have to work with their own kind in order to be accepted to med school. Very slippery slope

I also think you need to consider a little more about exactly what "Caucasian-American" culture really is. It's an amalgamation of a huge variety of cultures. There is no broad worldwide "white" culture. The mainstream culture tends to incorporate bits and pieces of almost every group.

I know this, I also know that the exprience of race is not monolithic for any group. The first half of my life was apent in a white suburb and I have many white friends who have exposed me to their cultures. But you have to admit that the variety of aspects of white culture portrayed in the media are explored to a far greater extent than other cultures.

Black culture has been heavily incorporated into the mainstream over the past 30 years

I also have no idea how you can believe this? The representations of African Americans in the media are caracterized to a ridiculous extent; portrayed as overly sexual, aggressive, violent, unintelligent, criminals, etc. Positive representation of African American culture and communities are normally relegated to mainly black audiences. Ditto with other minority groups. Minorities have been incorporated in that they are portrayed as white people believe them. Women are also forced to fit into white stereotypes of beauty. Name a famous black actress who retains her natural hair. You'll notice most famous black actress tend toward the lighter end of the spectrum, infact you can look at some preformers and see how they skin has mysteriously lightened during their career.

but you wouldn't recognize that. Next time don't assume what people mean without reading what they wrote.

I'm not sure how I wouldn't recognize that? Once again you are assuming you know more about minority culture than someone who LIVED IT.

 

[chessknt]

see above, I know this. i did understand that you saw a need for it, my problem was that you felt that white people had the right to control in any way what a URM applicant does once they leave. I am all for URMs going back to work in disadvantaged communties, it is what I plan to do. It just seems scary that white people are telling black people they have to work with their own kind in order to be accepted to med school. Very slippery slope

Since when were white people in charge of anything by themselves? Obviously if this was mandated it would be by the school, and unless you are going to Klan SOM then there are non-white people in the schools administration.

I know this, but you have to admit that the aspects of white culture are protrayed in the media that are explored far outweigh representations of other cultures.

There is no such thing as white culture, so how is it portrayed in the media?

 

[sewcurious]

Since when were white people in charge of anything by themselves? Obviously if this was mandated it would be by the school, and unless you are going to Klan SOM then there are non-white people in the schools administration.

There is no such thing as white culture, so how is it portrayed in the media?

OMG. How can people continue to deny that the majority of power in this country in most fields including medicine remains in the hands of the white people? This is why these discussions rarely make headway, our perspectives are very very different.

When I say "white culture" I mean that most representations of mainstream American culture focus largely on white people. Their family life, obs, problems, etc.

This is my point, race in the country cannot be discussed because people do not admit the reality. I am not angry or bitter about it really, I just think there are a lot of problems and ignoring them is not the solution. I don't hate white people, (most of closest friends throughout my life have been and remain white and I have dated white men) and I know that not every white person in America reaps equal benefits from the history of racial discrimination in this country. I also realize I have participated and propagated this culture throughout my life (my hair isn't natural either). But I still think that there is a problem in this country.

Ignoring the facts always benefits those in power, so is it really that surprising that so many people on this thread on minimizing its significance?

 

[chessknt]

OMG. How can people continue to deny that the majority of power in this country in most fields including medicine? This is what I am saying.

When I say white culture I mean that most representations of mainstream American culture focus largely on white people.

This is my point, race in the country cannot be discussed because people do not admit the reality. I am not angry or bitter about it really. I don't hate white people, (most of closest friends throughout my life have been and remain white) and I realize I have participated a propagated this culture throughout my life (my hair isn't natural either).

Ignoring the facts always benefits those in power, so is it really that surprising that so many people on this thread on minimizing its significance?

Im sorry but I think you might be stuck in the 1960s. There are plenty of non-white people in power (like barack obama....). Several of the deans of my med school are not white, the chancellor of UC Irvine is black, the lt governor of CA is going to be Latino....

The idea that power is purposely concentrated into the hands of white people and stolen from everyone else is absurd in almost all modern scenarios. Please provide modern examples where 2 equally qualified candidates for a powerful position resulted in the white person being chosen.

And now you blame the media for "focusing" on white people? What does that even mean? What exactly should they be doing in your ideal vision of America?

And I cant really ignore any facts because there are none. Lets see some of these facts.

 

[sewcurious]

Im sorry but I think you might be stuck in the 1960s. There are plenty of non-white people in power (like barack obama....). Several of the deans of my med school are not white, the chancellor of UC Irvine is black, the lt governor of CA is going to be Latino....

This is a common tactic. Yes there are a many minorities in power but that does not mean that most power (socioeconomically) is not in the hands of white people. You really think 50 years (2 generations) was enough time to COMPLETELY overcome the inferior position interms of education and socioeconomic status? You also have to realize that the 1960s was when the laws changed, but that was it. Peoples hearts were not changed. The same people in control before the Civil and Voting Rights Acts remained in power afterwards (often inceasing their resistance to upward mobility even more, unsurprisingly the South tended to drag its feet on enforcing them). Though access has been opened for minorities nothing was done to directly combat the many erroneous beliefs that people of the time had. That is why people still believe that I "talk like a white person" and other subtle assumptions that people do not even realize they are making (including myself).

The idea that power is purposely concentrated into the hands of white people and stolen from everyone else is absurd in almost all modern scenarios. Please provide modern examples where 2 equally qualified candidates for a powerful position resulted in the white person being chosen.

I'm not sure how you would expect me to find that but the fact that you do not believe it exists is interesting.

And now you blame the media for "focusing" on white people? What does that even mean? What exactly should they be doing in your ideal vision of America?

It means that mainstream means white, Look at the distribution of races in our favorite shows and in general. My ideal would be an interest in exploring all cultures and having more diversity than the rich to upper-middle class emphasis of shows that often do not represent the experiences of most americas (of any race). I'd prefer that beauty was not so rigidly associated with Caucasian features. I would prefer a true representation of the diversity in this country, because everyone has something to contribute.

And I cant really ignore any facts because there are none. Lets see some of these facts.

The reason I haven't been using specific facts: "It is generally recognized that there are large racial differences in SES, and health researchers routinely adjust for SES when examining the race–health association...Race is an antecedent and determinant of SES, and racial differences in SES reflect, in part, the successful implementation of discriminatory policies premised on the inferiority of certain racial groups."

http://www.echt.chm.msu.edu/blockiii/Docs/RecRead/RaceSocioeconomic.pdf

and more

"First, is the endorsement of an ideology of inferiority a relic of a bygone era? On the one hand, there have been dramatic improvements in the racial climate in the United States in the last 50 years. For example, national data reveal that in 1942 only 32% of whites with school-aged children believed that white and black children should go to the same schools. Ninety-six percent of white parents supported that view in 1995. Similarly, in 1958 only 37% of whites stated that they would vote for a qualified black man for President of the United States. In 1997, 95% of whites indicated that they would vote for a black person for President. At the same time, other
data indicate that racial attitudes are complex. Overwhelming support for the principle of equality coexists with a reluctance to support policies that would reduce racial inequalities.

Moreover, data on stereotypes reveal the persistence of negative images of minorityracial/ethnic populations in the United States. National data reveal that 45% of whites believe that most blacks are lazy, 51% indicated that most blacks are prone to violence, 29% that most blacks are unintelligent, and 56% that most blacks prefer to live off welfare.

These data also reveal a reluctance to endorse positive stereotypes of African Americans. Only 17% of whites indicated that most blacks are hard-working, 15% that most blacks are not prone to violence, 21% that most blacks are intelligent, and 12% that most blacks prefer to be self-supporting. These data are even more striking when compared with whites' perceptions of themselves and other groups. In general, whites view all minority racial groups more negatively than themselves, with blacks being viewed more negatively than any other group. Hispanics tend to be viewed twice as negatively as Asians. Jews tend to be viewed more positively, and southern whites more negatively, than whites in general."

This explains why your view is so scary. Because racial discrimination does affect the health of patients. There are so many of these studies, just look.

 

[SJiggetts]

SEWCURIOUS I applaud you!

 

[chessknt]

Im not going to even go down this road because I will automatically be labeled a racist if I do. Ill just leave it that every encounter ive ever had with the BSU has been one of anger over their minority status that can only be assuaged with more money (to be spent on various pet programs that utilize an amount of funding disproportionate to their small subpopulation and use racial qualifiers). It kind of wrecks my ability to approach this neutrally.

 

[sewcurious]

Im not going to even go down this road because I will automatically be labeled a racist if I do. Ill just leave it that every encounter ive ever had with the BSU has been one of anger over their minority status that can only be assuaged with more money (to be spent on various pet programs that utilize an amount of funding disproportionate to their small subpopulation and use racial qualifiers). It kind of wrecks my ability to approach this neutrally.

I completely understand and I would never judge you as a racist mainly because I don't even think racists are fully responsible for their beliefs. I understand that it is a sensitive subject and I fully realize that as a black liberal raised in a hippie mecca in Los Angeles I hold my own prejudices and biases. I am just so happy that this thread was able to insite conversation that didn't devolve into name calling.

WooHoo maturity 🙂

 

[Raryn]

And you think people are gonna tell you the truth in the classroom? I could say I got in with a 2.5 just to watch you and see your reaction to it.

Go on MDapps right now:

do a SEARCH

GPA between (1.0 and 3.1)
&
MCAT between (10 and 22)

results(12)

Asians: 1
Blacks: 1
Caucasians: 8
East Indians: 1
Hispanics: 1

I'm not going to comment on the rest of the discussion because its been beaten to death, but anyone who looks at MDApps for their objective data is badly misguided. The real data is out there, for anyone who wants to look.

AAMC data sources: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/start.htm

Overall Averages for each race/ethnicity: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table19-mcatpgaraceeth09-web.pdf

Race/Ethnicity Stats grids: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-mcatgpa-grid-3yrs-app-accpt-raceeth.htm

Individual race PDFs are linked in the intro to the main grid.

Note: Raw numbers of students at each level don't mean much, given that there's ~6.5x as many Caucasians in the US as there are African Americans. Comparing the percentages for individual GPA/MCAT boxes on the grids is *far* more telling of just how much of an advantage being an "URM" is.

Note 2: I'm not commenting on the way the system is currently run. I know that I would definitely run it differently if I was the dean of admissions at any individual medical school, but they they have the right to fulfill their missions as they wish. LizzyM makes some damn-good points, and being "fair" isn't the primary consideration of (almost) anyone in the process (even if a lot of people wish it to be).

 

[Morsetlis]

^ I'll agree with this post and leave it at that.

 

[morning]

^ I'll agree with this post and leave it at that.

+3

Since I've joined here, like 20 days ago, there's been at least 3 big URM posts in the pre-allo forum.

 

[aDreamer]

Im not going to even go down this road because I will automatically be labeled a racist if I do. Ill just leave it that every encounter ive ever had with the BSU has been one of anger over their minority status that can only be assuaged with more money (to be spent on various pet programs that utilize an amount of funding disproportionate to their small subpopulation and use racial qualifiers). It kind of wrecks my ability to approach this neutrally.

Hey chessknt87, I can see how you might be frustrated by that situation. Although you described it in very vague terms, if I might venture, I'd say that the anger that you're getting from the BSU is likely not over "their minority status" itself. It's more likely that they are feeling invisible/without voice in your current system. It's been my experience (as a minority) that the greatest source of "anger" in the minority community stems from this very thing--feeling overlooked by those in power and having little say in the direction things move.

Sidenote: being frustrated with the situation does not make you a racist. I'm sure both sides are just very deeply entrenched in their perspectives. For example, just as you feel resentment (that's what I'm sensing from your post) that the BSU is "utilizing an amount of funding disproportionate to their small subpopulation and use racial qualifiers" for their "various pet projects", in their perspective they may feel resentment that they have to go such great lengths to have programming/projects that tailor their (assumably) unique interests/needs.

I guess my point is that I see where you're coming from, but I would wager there's more to their stance than the one-dimensional motive you've outlined. Just an opinion.

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

For any one still confused about med school admissions and "merit", please readJustice: What's the Right Thing to Do?,or watch below.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUhReMT5uqA&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

 

[jckut10]

+3

Since I've joined here, like 20 days ago, there's been at least 3 big URM posts in the pre-allo forum.

Once per week. Sounds about right.

 

[Morsetlis]

Along with "Publication?" and "How to explain my F's" and "Do W's matter?"

🙂

 

[298609]

Sidenote: being frustrated with the situation does not make you a racist.

aaaaamen. excellent. often gets lost in translation in these threads.

also: having an opinion other than what is currently "PC" does not make you a racist. a racist is one that believes one race to be superior (or one race inferior, whichever way you wanna look at it)



i have a genuine question for sewcurious and those who agree with the sentiments outlined by her.

you mentioned that the majority of people in power are white and that examples of this person or that person of color in power are used often, however still the majority are white. very true, i agree with you. "my black (gay, hispanic, indian, etc etc) friend" is an example used all the time.

now, i can't recall off the top of my head the statistics of racial make up of america right now, but what if, say, for every 10 people in power we had a representitive make up of the racial distribution in america?

example: (again, the numbers are prob off)

6 whites (euro+mid east+north africa+non hispanic)
2 blacks (african american/african)
1 hispanic
1 asian

this is simplified a lot, obv. and not including some key races...but anyway, if those in power represented the percentage distribution of race for the people, would that be satisfactory and do you think the masses would be accepting of it?


as a end note i have to say, wow, everyone has been really respectful. 👍🙂