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What to do if wife is not supportive?

1Path

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beentherdonthat said:
Fortunately, I have a healthy dose of self-esteem and I didn't even have to go to med school to obtain it. Wow, imagine that! Talk about going "Hmmmmmmm...." Furthermore, should he leave me for supposed better model, my self-esteem would still be intact because it was his weakness that caused him to stray and abandon his family, not mine.
I dunno, going to med school to get self-esteem seems sorta redundant! Premeds are the most esteemed folks I've EVER met! :D
 

commymommy

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1Path said:
I dunno, going to med school to get self-esteem seems sorta redundant! Premeds are the most esteemed folks I've EVER met! :D

You can say that again! :rolleyes:

I have checked out mommd btw and I see many women humbly struggling very hard to make things work once they actually get IN to medical school or residency. :laugh:

That's ok...I remember clearly thinking that I knew it all once...your humbling moment will come too.
 

1Path

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commymommy said:
That's ok...I remember clearly thinking that I knew it all once...your humbling moment will come too.

And hopefully, you'll "humbly" fufilll what ever professional goals you have for yourself one day! :thumbup:
 
N

njbmd

Hi there,
To the OP, I am really sorry that your spouse was not able to support your decision to attend medical school. I was totally fortunate to find a sweet guy who was willing to make sacrifices and moved with me for medical school and now residency (General Surgery). Sure, he hates when I am overnight in the hospital but as I have moved through the years, the schedules are getting better and we have more quality time together. (He does nothing even remotely related to medicine).

Most of my resident colleagues are married or engaged (some to fellow physicians and some not) or have families. My program director is very family oriented and really enforces the 80-hour work week. He does everything possible to get folks out of the hospital and home. My colleagues place a supreme value on their family time and off time so that they may spend quality time with spouse or SO.

We do not keep out pagers on at home. When our relief team comes in, they totally handle everything until we relieve them. (I just spent some Night Float critical care time over the holidays). It is tough to be away overnight and tough to have 24-hour periods where I don't see my fiance but those are only every other weekend and the next day is off.

There has to be some balance in medicine and my family provides this balance. As I have said many times, medicine does not define me but is rather what I do for a living. It is for sure that I totally love surgery and what I do but the time at home is totally SWEET :D

I hope every one can find some balance and enjoy the benefits of a great relationship. It is worth gold!
njbmd :cool:
 

cytoborg

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1Path said:
I put my family first too AND I'm getting my MD/PhD one day. :thumbup: More than this, it angers me women who don't want to pursue their life's passion try to passively belittle women brave enough to follow their hearts.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Refreshing...totally with you on this 1Path, and good for you for sticking with your goals through thick and thin.
 

neuronerd

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cytoborg said:
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Refreshing...totally with you on this 1Path, and good for you for sticking with your goals through thick and thin.


Seconded a thousand times over.
 

1Path

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As I currently balance writing a paper (still!!! :mad: ), working on a presentation for a national meeting next month, taking 2 PhD classes, studying for the MCAT, while working in the lab, it's FANTASTIC to receive such outside support!!! :eek: :D

Thanks to everyone and good luck to ALL of us!!!!!

PS-Both my daughters made the honor roll this past grading period!!!! Yeah!!! :clap:
 

brotherbloat

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Hello there,

I am a married woman, applying to med school and did a post-bacc, who is thinking about a lot of these same issues. Here's my situation: at 26 I did a post-bacc, got married afterwards, and now at 27 am working full-time while taking night classes and applying to med school. My hubby is a resident. As soon as he's done in 2 years is when we're planning to move to wherever I get into med school. I am thankful that he is supportive of my med school dream and is willing to move wherever in the country I get in, whether that's North Dakota or whatnot. I am, however, really worried about what my being a med student/ resident will do to our future kids (we have no kids yet right now.) For instance, right now being a resident, I really never see my hubby. He's on call every 4th night, is gone from 5 am to 6 or 7 pm, and when he is home he's always studying. In fact, we rarely have a whole "guilt-free from studying" day together.

This bothers me big time. But it's just us now, so it's not as much of a problem as it will be when we have kids. I feel that residency definitely limits our quality time together, and though it's already been 3 years of trying to adjust things to make it work better, the situation never gets better. I never feel like I get to see enough of him.

So I'm worried what the situation will be like when we do have kids. I agree that when you work 80 hours a week, plus the additonal time having to study, it's hard or impossible to be an ideal spouse, let alone an ideal parent.

As of now, I'm still planning to stay on the path towards med school, because I know if I don't I'll be a bitter person who hates her boring 9 to 5 job, but I do wonder if this really is the right choice.

Any thoughts? Especially any thoughts from spouses who have somehow learned to live with their medical spouse being gone/ occupied so much? How do you not let it not bother you?

-BB
 

elin

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commymommy said:
Manna,

That sounds like a good plan for your family and you are right that you will still have all options available to you including med school if that is still what you want.

My mom was a nurse for over 20 years and finally went back after she got divorced (and was over 50) to get her NP. She's been working in the field now for several years and she loves it. The docs that hire her have always had respect for her and given her autonomy.

1Path, if you have chosen the path that works best for you, why are you carrying on about what I have said? Did I not clearly state that it might be different for other people and that this was my own individual family and its needs.

How much child support should a man have to pay? Why don't we just let you decide that :rolleyes: Wait...lets wait until you are divorced and trying to raise your kids on your own and then come back to this issue? (Wait..are you even married?) Are you suggesting that men have to pay too much to their children (who didn't ask to be born) for child support? Do love and hugs pay for shoes, school clothes, school books, college funds and for the increased cost of living required by the mom to live in a home or apartment that accomodates more people? How about the extra electricity, water and groceries? Or should the 'sperm donor' only be responsible for clothing his offspring?

My comparison wasn't apples and oranges...


I never suggested that women who choose medicine aren't putting their familes first...I specifically stated that because we had already survived moves for residency (x3) and fellowship and all of the associatied stress that it wouldn't work for my family. But since you brought it up, please describe how you are putting your family first while getting your MD/PhD...I want to learn from your time management skills! Most spouses of MD/PhD students that I know would disagree with the idea that it is possible to have such an absolutely perfect balance so if you can share how you are doing this you may help many others!

Oh Wait...you said you were getting your MD/PhD someday...does that mean you aren't even a med student yet and are just talking in sweeping theories?

And for the record, I believe that working women CAN and DO put their families first...and that they can be a good example to their children (both sons and daughters). I do NOT believe that it is possible for a mother or a FATHER to be a balanced spouse or parent when they are working 80+ hours a week...regardless of the profession.

Agent-
If you aren't picky about the type of doctor you want to become,you can look into NHSC and other programs that will pay back your loans. PA school is another alternative. I would encourage you to think about the long term ramifications of your decisions. If you decide to go to PA or Med school and end up with 150K+ salary, you will be in the position to help your children more significantly i.e. putting them through college, grad school, helping with the down payment on that first home, especially if you have no loans from doing NHSC or something similar. In addition, your children will have a good role model. I definitely looked up to my parents because they had advanced degrees, and I was expected to achieve much more.

To commymommy:
I don't think your experience is a common one. I don't think many couples are residency/fellowship hopping across continents, which would make childrearing and applying to med school infinitely more difficult. I know many children from immigrant familes whose parents worked >100 hrs a week at multiple jobs. These children go to good colleges and are well adjusted. I think the stay at home mom crowd sometimes confuses quality of parenting with quantity, which is defiinitely a mistake. In addition, this situation isn't unique to medicine, any job that has good dividends (high pay, job security) requires schooling, training and hours that are greater than the avg job. I think the decision to pursue medicine v picking a less time consuming, 'safer' path comes down to your priorities in life. Do you see your career as a vital part of who you are, or are you happy going through the motions at the 9 to 5 and coming home to your friends and family?
 

Runtita

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To the OP and anyone involved in a relationship with someone who is not supportive:

Ask yourself why the person isn't supportive. Is it from fear? If so, talk about those fears. Be honest. Remember that you are in this (and by "this", I mean everything) together. If it is from jealousy, think about what your partner does every day. If they are at home with a small child all day and lack adult companionship/conversation, if they do the larger share of household chores, if they put their dreams on hold for you, then you have got to reassess your participation in the relationship and give your partner the space to do whatever it is that they want to do.

If it isn't fear or jealousy, but selfishness or pure meanness, then there is more to the problem than your choosing to go to medical school, and the choice isn't between med school or your partner, but between your partner and your happiness. How can you be happy with a selfish, demanding person dictating your life?
 

Kimya

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That is too bad about the divorce. It sounds like you really care for your family. I wonder if you can get more information about what exactly financial aid will cover, ie. if there is a way you could take out loans to cover the child support? Also, if you were forced to temporarily reduce the support, mayble you could sit down and figure out a way to provide more support once your kids have graduated. For example, at a higher salary down the road, you could potentially contribute more towards college funds for them.

Another factor would of course be distance. Do you have partial custody?? Can you find a good school that is a close enough distance to visit the kids as much as you'd like?

Some people mentioned PA programs, I think also if you go to nursing school you could become an NP later. Nurses are also making good money these days, so that might be a good interim. Depends on what area of medicine you'd eventually like to practice.

Commymommy and path1, I think both of you have figured out what balance is needed for your particular family situation. It takes a lot of courage to pursue a goal like medical school, especially with balancing kids in the mix. Hooray that more and more women are doing this! It also takes a lot of courage to NOT do it, however, if you feel that in the long run it will hurt your family. Hooray as well that women are finding the courage to do this too!!
 

1Path

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elin said:
I know many children from immigrant familes whose parents worked >100 hrs a week at multiple jobs. These children go to good colleges and are well adjusted.
This is a great point!!! I think it's about that "it's takes a villiage to raise a family" attitude that's lacking in most american homes today, but not mine.

elin said:
I think the stay at home mom crowd sometimes confuses quality of parenting with quantity, which is defiinitely a mistake.

Here, here!!!! :thumbup:
 

Eiko

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agent said:
Well the only reason I ask is prior to the divorce, I was about to apply for nursing school.

Now I am considering other possible alternatives.

And the reason we divorced was more due to her than me, but isn't that what you hear from all divorcees?

And thanks path2b for saying I am a cool guy. I try my best LOL


The thing is that in marriage, there is compromise... on both sides. She married you knowing full well you had dreams... and then she wanted you to change them for her?

Now, if you had told her to stay in the home otherwise there'd be a divorce or to demand that she work... then you would have been more at fault.

Besides, the medical school sounded more like a symptom rather than the real cause of the problem.

People use outside things to blame for what they are truly feeling inside. My guess is that she had a severe insecurity problem wanting you there with her all the time and expecting you to constantly reaffirm your love for her or that you found her attractive.... this and (as strange as it may sound this is a common side problem with insecurity issues) accompanied with the self-righteous attitude makes for a very critical and demanding wife.

As for you as a man, the more she did this the more you withdrew and backed away from her, spending as much time as you could away from home. Also, you could have even resorted to criticisms of your own in retaliation.

You needed to be admired and supported in your career decisions.

She, from the looks of things, needed someone with her to constantly tell her how important and appreciated she was so that she wouldn't feel at ease about herself.

Find yourself a healthy wife and puruse your dreams, let her admire you for who you are and what you can become. Realize though that even healthy wifes need appreciation and tenderness... they need to be adored for the women they are whether in the home or not.
 

Wifty

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brotherbloat said:
Hello there,

I am a married woman, applying to med school and did a post-bacc, who is thinking about a lot of these same issues. Here's my situation: at 26 I did a post-bacc, got married afterwards, and now at 27 am working full-time while taking night classes and applying to med school. My hubby is a resident. As soon as he's done in 2 years is when we're planning to move to wherever I get into med school. So I'm worried what the situation will be like when we do have kids. I agree that when you work 80 hours a week, plus the additonal time having to study, it's hard or impossible to be an ideal spouse, let alone an ideal parent.

As of now, I'm still planning to stay on the path towards med school, because I know if I don't I'll be a bitter person who hates her boring 9 to 5 job, but I do wonder if this really is the right choice.

Any thoughts? Especially any thoughts from spouses who have somehow learned to live with their medical spouse being gone/ occupied so much? How do you not let it not bother you?

-BB


It sounds like you have a great relationship that is supportive and understanding. That right there is a huge part of the equation. A good relationship with lots of communication can get thru more and bigger hurdles then those with a poor relationship.

The chance to show your children what a loving, supportive relationship is and how fulfilled people can be to follow their goals - is a wonderful gift that you already have to give.

Yes, it will be more difficult to make it work but there are options that make it easier. You can:
Stay close to family so that you have extra support and babysitting/nannies.
Pick a residency that is more family friendly and less likely to push you with extreme hours.
Take a year off before residency to have a baby.
Have your spouse be a stay-at-home dad for a time or maybe just work somewhere where he has more flexibility.

It can be done. I am a spouse and have seen 2.5 years of med students becoming families and making descions for the future.

What you have to give a child already is wonderful - less time then you would like for a while, is not as horrible as you might think.

Good luck!!!

Rebecca aka Wifty aka spouse of a third year and mom to a one year old and still having fun with the whole process. :)
 

agent

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Thank you to everyone who posted something to me thus far.

You are all appreciated :)
 

commymommy

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Kimya said:
Commymommy and path1, I think both of you have figured out what balance is needed for your particular family situation. It takes a lot of courage to pursue a goal like medical school, especially with balancing kids in the mix. Hooray that more and more women are doing this! It also takes a lot of courage to NOT do it, however, if you feel that in the long run it will hurt your family. Hooray as well that women are finding the courage to do this too!!

Thanks...it is hard to NOT do something that you want to do because of your particular situation and the needs of your family. It can be hard to put oneself at the bottom of the list.
 

commymommy

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elin said:
I know many children from immigrant familes whose parents worked >100 hrs a week at multiple jobs. These children go to good colleges and are well adjusted. I think the stay at home mom crowd sometimes confuses quality of parenting with quantity, which is defiinitely a mistake.

Well, I have stated all along that my decision is based on my family's unique experiences....no..our experience was not common.

I also know children from homes where parents worked >100 hours a week and they turned to drugs...what's your point here? I don't think you can generalize about hours worked/welfare of the child any more than I can. Something I will say about immigrants families is that they seem to be more family oriented...there is also often extended family here. Many non-immigrant families here where both parents are working >100 hours a week are doing so to afford that house on the lake, the boat, the trip to Jamaica, etc...apples and oranges in my opinion.

I would like to respond to the comment about the stay-at-home mom crowd confusing quality and quantity...that's dead wrong. I speak as someone who was a full-time stay at home mom, then a part-time student, a full-time student and is now employed part-time. You can't schedule quality time...you can't....I have afternoons when I'm at home with my kids and I'm beating my head against the wall in boredom thinking "a teen-ager could be doing this...my kids could be at after school care..WHY oh WHY am I here" and then my son will walk in the room and sit on my lap and start telling me about how frustrated he is with something or how he needs my help. This is something that often didn't happen when I was working so hard to get my MS. He had some anxiety issues in school and when it all came out and I talked to him about it I said "why didn't you tell me". He told me that it just never seemed like there was time....and yet..I had tucked him into bed each night and had tried to make time for them.

We discussed at one point that the kids would start going to after school care because I was considering going back to work full-time and my daughter burst into tears...."but I'll misss you...I like coming home to you". My daughter plays with her friends/talks on the phone/reads and writes and basically...IGNORES me. "But I know you're here if I need you" was her reply to that.

I think that full-time working moms sometimes confuse the idea of quality time and quantity time. Quality time is something that naturally evolves out of quantity time. You can several 'quality time' moments in a long stretch of quantity time. Unless you have stayed at home for long stretches with your kids you may not realize that. Maybe that's why your perceive sahm's to be beating that drum? You can schedule times to read to the kids or do something special, but quantity time also can be quality time.....doing dishes while the kids color at the table, cleaning the house while your toddler throws the freshly folded clothes down the stairs....quality time and quantity time are not as distinct as you think.
 

commymommy

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Agent,

I am sorry to hear about your divorce and I apologize for my rather unfeeling response initially.
 

1Path

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commymommy said:
Unless you have stayed at home for long stretches with your kids you may not realize that. Maybe that's why your perceive sahm's to be beating that drum?

So the ONLY Moms that know what true quality time is are the ones that stay at home? I imagine there are quite a few Moms and Dads on this site that would see parenting differently.

You know if that's what you really believe I don't just disagree with you, I pity you and your children especially your daughters. :(
 

elin

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commymommy said:
Well, I have stated all along that my decision is based on my family's unique experiences....no..our experience was not common.
Throughout this thread, you have criticized women who work by suggesting that they place their needs above those of their families. It seems as if you are guilt tripping women who choose time consuming and intellectually stimulating careers. If it didn't work out for you, than leave it at that.

commymommy said:
I also know children from homes where parents worked >100 hours a week and they turned to drugs...what's your point here? I don't think you can generalize about hours worked/welfare of the child any more than I can. Something I will say about immigrants families is that they seem to be more family oriented...there is also often extended family here. Many non-immigrant families here where both parents are working >100 hours a week are doing so to afford that house on the lake, the boat, the trip to Jamaica, etc...apples and oranges in my opinion.
I agree we can't generalize on hours worker/welfare of child. But I know many parents who work extra so they can help their children pay for college and grad school or pay for the first deposit on the house.

commymommy said:
I would like to respond to the comment about the stay-at-home mom crowd confusing quality and quantity...that's dead wrong. I speak as someone who was a full-time stay at home mom, then a part-time student, a full-time student and is now employed part-time. You can't schedule quality time...you can't....I have afternoons when I'm at home with my kids and I'm beating my head against the wall in boredom thinking "a teen-ager could be doing this...my kids could be at after school care..WHY oh WHY am I here" and then my son will walk in the room and sit on my lap and start telling me about how frustrated he is with something or how he needs my help. This is something that often didn't happen when I was working so hard to get my MS. He had some anxiety issues in school and when it all came out and I talked to him about it I said "why didn't you tell me". He told me that it just never seemed like there was time....and yet..I had tucked him into bed each night and had tried to make time for them. We discussed at one point that the kids would start going to after school care because I was considering going back to work full-time and my daughter burst into tears...."but I'll misss you...I like coming home to you". My daughter plays with her friends/talks on the phone/reads and writes and basically...IGNORES me. "But I know you're here if I need you" was her reply to that.
I stand by my statement. If you count your daughter's behavior as quality time, than good for you. I think that after a certain age (kindergarten) children benefit greatly from being enrolled in after-school programs. (Art, dance, math and science, chess, music) My mother wasn't at home every day after school, but she set aside time each day to help with homework and to talk with us. She attended many of our games, competitions and performances. She set aside part of her weekend to take us on trips, and she managed to do this while working full time, with no help from extended family, and without a babysitter.
commymommy said:
I think that full-time working moms sometimes confuse the idea of quality time and quantity time. Quality time is something that naturally evolves out of quantity time. You can several 'quality time' moments in a long stretch of quantity time. Unless you have stayed at home for long stretches with your kids you may not realize that. Maybe that's why your perceive sahm's to be beating that drum? You can schedule times to read to the kids or do something special, but quantity time also can be quality time.....doing dishes while the kids color at the table, cleaning the house while your toddler throws the freshly folded clothes down the stairs....quality time and quantity time are not as distinct as you think.
Quality time all depends on how your kids define it. Is your daughter going to remember you being in the background while she talks on the phone with her friends. Is your toddler going to remember throwing clothes down the stairs while you stood in the background? My parents were there for the important moments in my life, good and bad, they helped shape my moral standards, and were always a source of support and encouragement. That's all most kids need, unless your kids have severe social/behavioral problems. My mother was also a great role model in terms of her career success, which she couldn't have been if she was a stay at home mom. Again all of this depends on where your ambitions lie and your level of intelligence. If you aren't that smart and dislike college and academics, then it probably won't be a great personal loss if you become a stay at home mom. However, if you are academically talented and ambitious, it will be extremely disappointing to become a permanent stay at home mom for the most part.
 

1Path

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elin said:
My parents were there for the important moments in my life, good and bad, they helped shape my moral standards, and were always a source of support and encouragement. That's all most kids need, unless your kids have severe social/behavioral problems.
This actually brings up a good point. I take great pride in knowing that I'm raising my children to be self-sufficient and independant with the social skill set that can ONLY be developed by being around other children their age. What I've found is that no matter how many times I watch Shreik II with my daughters, I just don't really "get it" they way their friends do. :laugh:
 

commymommy

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1Path said:
So the ONLY Moms that know what true quality time is are the ones that stay at home? I imagine there are quite a few Moms and Dads on this site that would see parenting differently.

You know if that's what you really believe I don't just disagree with you, I pity you and your children especially your daughters. :(

That is not what I said...but parents who do have more quantity time often do recognize that quality time evolves out of quantity time.

I don't need your pity and neither do my children. :rolleyes:

Did you guys also miss the part where I mentioned that I AM a working mom Guess what...that means...I work! I do make it a priority to be home after school because we have things to go to like dance, boy scouts, girl scouts and oh yah....homework that I sit down and help my children through. My youngest actually goes to in-home *gasp* daycare 3 mornings a week and my 6 year old goes to *gasp* afterschool care one day a week. My older two children are home at 2.30. My entire day is a marathon.

pleeease. Go ahead and justify your 100 hour work weeks ... It is not the choice I could make for my family for reasons that extend beyond the boundaries of this thread...related to my children's needs and my own personal desire to be at home during this time (purely selfish on my part).

If you are personally happy and your family is thriving working 100 hours a week, go for it...but leave the women who choose to stay at home during this time alone...their families are different and their needs are different....the job they are doing is also valuable.
 

commymommy

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elin said:
Throughout this thread, you have criticized women who work by suggesting that they place their needs above those of their families. It seems as if you are guilt tripping women who choose time consuming and intellectually stimulating careers. If it didn't work out for you, than leave it at that.

Nope, that's what you chose to read into my comments. On more than one occasion even in this thread I have stated that this was our choice for our family...and also...since I WORK outside of the home part-time, I don't really see how I can imply anything about working moms vs stay at home moms.

elin said:
If you count your daughter's behavior as quality time, than good for you. I think that after a certain age (kindergarten) children benefit greatly from being enrolled in after-school programs. (Art, dance, math and science, chess, music)

Well, that is another reason that I AM home after school...so that we can drive to dance, boy scouts, girl scouts, gymnastics and oh yes...did I mention that I'm homeschooling my children in german? I couldn't do all of those things if I was at the office in the afternoons.

Quality time all depends on how your kids define it. Is your daughter going to remember you being in the background while she talks on the phone with her friends. Is your toddler going to remember throwing clothes down the stairs while you stood in the background?

She doesn't spend every day talking on the phone...it was just one example. Will she remember that I drove her to dance and sat and watched? Will she remember that I made her the after school snack and baked cookies with her?

At the end of the day, my children may not remember, but I will...and for me personally, this is important. I will remember my little peanut tossing the clothes down the stairs :) I will remember being here and that is something that I value...I value these years...I value this fleeing time in their lives.

Will my children benefit from being over-scheduled and having an activity every day? Will they learn to appreciate down-time or always expect to be entertained? Is it better for me to have them in an activity every day than to play a game with them?

My parents were there for the important moments in my life, good and bad, they helped shape my moral standards, and were always a source of support and encouragement. That's all most kids need, unless your kids have severe social/behavioral problems.

I agree that that is important...I just question how someone can provide that working 100 hours a week is all. My husband went to medical school and we 'survived' his residency and fellowship...there wasn't a lot of time for being there for the important events or providing support and encouragement...but I'm sure that you are different than he is.

Again all of this depends on where your ambitions lie and your level of intelligence. If you aren't that smart and dislike college and academics, then it probably won't be a great personal loss if you become a stay at home mom. However, if you are academically talented and ambitious, it will be extremely disappointing to become a permanent stay at home mom for the most part.

That is funny. I recieved an undergraduate degree with a double major in german and psychology, later went back and studied biology as a post-bac student AND later earned my MS in Molecular Biology. I continue taking classes when I can for my own interest, teach german to children one morning a week and to adults one evening a week ... and in addition I teach a biology lab class at a local university.

In my time as a sahm I have met parents who were doctors and lawyers that decided to stay home because they found parenting to be so rewarding. I also know very bright women who haven't finished college yet but are planning on returning after their children are in school...I don't find them to not be ambitious or intelligent. Are you implying that all sahm's aren't intelligent?

Is it sometimes disappointing and frustrating? yes. Is it worth it? In my eyes, yes it is.
 

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commymommy said:
Nope, that's what you chose to read into my comments. On more than one occasion even in this thread I have stated that this was our choice for our family...and also...since I WORK outside of the home part-time, I don't really see how I can imply anything about working moms vs stay at home moms.
I just don't see how your situation i.e. moving about from country to country, is really applicable to the OP's situation or to most people making this kind of decision in the US.


commymommy said:
Well, that is another reason that I AM home after school...so that we can drive to dance, boy scouts, girl scouts, gymnastics and oh yes...did I mention that I'm homeschooling my children in german? I couldn't do all of those things if I was at the office in the afternoons.
This is what nannies are for, unless that quality time in the car means a lot to you.

commymommy said:
I agree that that is important...I just question how someone can provide that working 100 hours a week is all. My husband went to medical school and we 'survived' his residency and fellowship...there wasn't a lot of time for being there for the important events or providing support and encouragement...but I'm sure that you are different than he is.
I think we are looking at this from two different perspectives. You are lucky that you have the choice of being a sahm, many families don't and they still raise well behaved, intelligent children using the principles I mentioned in the previous post. You are acting as if being a sahm is a requirement/necessity for raising a child.



commymommy said:
That is funny. I recieved an undergraduate degree with a double major in german and psychology, later went back and studied biology as a post-bac student AND later earned my MS in Molecular Biology. I continue taking classes when I can for my own interest, teach german to children one morning a week and to adults one evening a week ... and in addition I teach a biology lab class at a local university.
I am glad that you are satisfied with your education. It's great that you were able to go back and get another degree. However, personally, I would not have been satisfied with just a masters and I'm sure many women on this board feel the same, and I definitely would not be happy with just a HS diploma, but everybody makes their choices in life.

commymommy said:
In my time as a sahm I have met parents who were doctors and lawyers that decided to stay home because they found parenting to be so rewarding. I also know very bright women who haven't finished college yet but are planning on returning after their children are in school...I don't find them to not be ambitious or intelligent. Are you implying that all sahm's aren't intelligent?
Of course not, but as I have said in my past couple of posts, it depends on where your ambitions lie. I would not give up a tenure track position or an academic post because my husband wants me to stay at home with the kids. I won't put my career plans or ambitions permanently on hold to stay at home with the kids.

I am glad that being a sahm worked out so well for you and that you are happy with your choice! After all, that's the only thing that matters, right?

While this discussion is interesting, I don't feel that it is very relevant to the OP. Sorry, agent. I remember vaguely from your previous posts that you live in the midwest...Illinois, or was it Iowa? In any case, you may find that being divorced may give you some flexibility in where you attend med school; depending on your custody arrangements, you may be able to attend a few hours away from your family and see your kids on holidays and in the summer. Good luck, and I hope things work out for you.
 

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I just don't see how your situation i.e. moving about from country to country, is really applicable to the OP's situation or to most people making this kind of decision in the US.

This conversation evolved beyond the post of the original OP.


This is what nannies are for, unless that quality time in the car means a lot to you.

Wow...ok, thanks for filling me in there. Driving your own flesh and blood to dance practice is menial labor to be delegated to a nanny who you would likely sue if she had an accident or something.

You are lucky that you have the choice of being a sahm, many families don't and they still raise well behaved, intelligent children using the principles I mentioned in the previous post. You are acting as if being a sahm is a requirement/necessity for raising a child.

No I'm not. You are acting like the job of being mother is one that requires no brain power and can be handed off to nannys and babysitters. BTW, when I was a full-time sahm we drove a single car and did without...we had garage sale furniture and didn't go to the movies or any of the things that we do now. But I did do crafts with my kids every day, have an educational "theme of the week" and take them to the park and enjoy being with them.

I am glad that you are satisfied with your education. It's great that you were able to go back and get another degree. However, personally, I would not have been satisfied with just a masters and I'm sure many women on this board feel the same, and I definitely would not be happy with just a HS diploma, but everybody makes their choices in life.

So, what you, in your arrogance, are saying is that anyone who is 'less' than an MD is basically living a life not worth living. Who is the one here trying to pigeon-hole women here? You act like any woman who chooses to stay at home to be with her children for a few short years is simply lacking in the brain department. What about women who simply find so much joy in staying at home that they decide to do it permanently? Are they less valuable in your eyes because a 'nanny could do it?'.

If you want the respect of sahm's then you should offer them respect.

Of course not, but as I have said in my past couple of posts, it depends on where your ambitions lie. I would not give up a tenure track position or an academic post because my husband wants me to stay at home with the kids. .
Hmmm Neither would I...but I would give up a tenure track position if it was what I wanted and valued.
I won't put my career plans or ambitions permanently on hold to stay at home with the kids.
Maturity sometimes requires tough decisions...sometimes we have to put ourselves and our wishes at the bottom of the list for a short period of time...especially when we have children. I can't always have what I want when I want it...but then again...that's what being a grown-up is all about. That being said, I'm speaking specifically about MY family and THEIR needs...not your own. I am not currently in a situation with my children that I can make that choice and have it be the right one...so I choose to wait in order to meet their needs. Other families may have different needs.

I am glad that being a sahm worked out so well for you and that you are happy with your choice! After all, that's the only thing that matters, right?

Apparently not. Apparently what matters is me hiring a nanny and becoming a dawkter as soon as possible.
 

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commymommy said:
This conversation evolved beyond the post of the original OP.




Wow...ok, thanks for filling me in there. Driving your own flesh and blood to dance practice is menial labor to be delegated to a nanny who you would likely sue if she had an accident or something.
This was simply a suggestion to save time.



commymommy said:
No I'm not. You are acting like the job of being mother is one that requires no brain power and can be handed off to nannys and babysitters. BTW, when I was a full-time sahm we drove a single car and did without...we had garage sale furniture and didn't go to the movies or any of the things that we do now. But I did do crafts with my kids every day, have an educational "theme of the week" and take them to the park and enjoy being with them.
I don't see what this has to do with anything. Are you trying to prove that you are a good parent?


commymommy said:
Yes, I should be ashamed to have 3 bachelor's degrees and a master's degree :rolleyes: My life isn't over either..who knows what I'll eventually accomplish. But what you, in your arrogance, are saying is that anyone who is 'less' than an MD is basically living a life not worth living. Who is the one here trying to pigeon-hole women here? You act like any woman who chooses to stay at home to be with her children for a few short years is simply lacking in the brain department. What about women who simply find so much joy in staying at home that they decide to do it permanently? Are they less valuable in your eyes because a 'nanny could do it?'.
Whoa! Did that touch a nerve? There is nothing wrong with having only a HS diploma, or continuing on to a masters. I said that for me, this would not be a desirable choice. Not everyone wants to be an M.D., and some people try it and don't like it, which is ok. However, I have my own goals and expectations, and one of those includes getting an M.D. Another thing to think about, I know women who put their lives and careers on hold while their husbands continued school, only to be cheated on/ divorced when their husband made it big. I imagine that it would be hard finding a good job without at least a college degree. If your goal in life is to be a stay at home, good for you! However, there are some women who go for the tenure-track positions, the partnerships etc, and manage to raise decent kids.

commymommy said:
If you want the respect of sahm's then you should offer them respect.[\QUOTE] I don't need the respect of sahm's, and you don't need the respect of women who work. If you are happy with your decisions, than criticism shouldn't matter- that isn't meant to be snarky. I hope you see what I am trying to say here. On a more personal level. I do think it is admirable that you 'adjusted' your dream for the sake of your family.


commymommy said:
Hmmm Neither would I...but I would give up a tenure track position if it was what I wanted and valued. Maturity sometimes requires tough decisions...sometimes we have to put ourselves and our wishes at the bottom of the list for a short period of time...especially when we have children. I can't always have what I want when I want it...but then again...that's what being a grown-up is all about. That being said, I'm speaking specifically about MY family and THEIR needs...not your own. I am not currently in a situation with my children that I can make that choice and have it be the right one...so I choose to wait in order to meet their needs. Other families may have different needs.
From your previous posts, it seemed as if you had given up on attending med school altogether, not putting your plans 'on hold.'
 

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commymommy said:
What about women who simply find so much joy in staying at home that they decide to do it permanently?

IMHO, you don't seem to happy with your choice(s). It's pretty obvious that there's something else out there you'd rather do otherwise, why collect the degrees??

FYI, I have 3 degrees of my own including a Master's and the reason I keep "plugging away at it" is because I'm NOT fully satisified with where I am right now. And from the sounds of it, neither are you.

Just based on your own choices, in some ways your husband "seems" as unsupportive of you fulfilling YOUR dreams. At least Agent has decided to be a happy and fulfilled Dad, rather than a Dad that was just there. Futhermore, I don't know a child in the world that wants EITHER of their parents to not be happy AND fulfilled in their own lives since we ALL know that happy parents make the best parents.
 

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You're pulling this discussion back to Agent and are speculating on his happiness as a divorced father? Whoa.

I think it is possible to find happiness in other avenues and I don't know what the future holds for me. Will I ever get back on the medschool path? I don't konw...maybe when I'm 40...and maybe not. In the meantime, I'm trying to enjoy the journey instead of focusing on the destination.

I'm not fully satisified with where my life is at right now, but at the same time, I recognize that each choice that we make has pros and cons. If I chose med school now I might be more fulfilled on one level, but my marriage and family might not finish that journey with me. My husband is very supportive now...though that was not always the case. He has basically told me that if that is what I want he'd find a way to help me make it happen...the question though is what would become of OUR children (not yours) who have already survived residency and fellowship training and years of stress, moving and upheaval.

It is easy to look at someone else's life and think you could have made better choices or would manage things better. When my husband and I got married we were both heading on the same path....I was accepted to medical school and then I found out I was pg....I planned to keep working up until med school started and then to have a childcare provider come to my house...(aka nanny) and when they laid my son in my arms that all vanished for me. I have struggled for years with the pull to become 'more' and the reality that I have a child with special needs that would suffer if I went on. The reality is that my family and my marriage (not yours) desperately needs the stability both financially and emotionally that we had not had for the many, many years of my husband's training.

You know what they say about the best laid plans of mice and men, don't you? I made my choices and I don't regret them....most of the time.

I think that for me the bottom line is that I can respect the choices that you are making and have made in regards to parenting and your choice to work full-time, but I hear that both of you have little respect for any woman who chooses for whatever reason to stay at home...even if it is to bring peace into their marriage.

At the end of the day, the glass ceiling that we women complain about doesn't really exist....we are just holding each other back by out petty bickering. I feel a need to defend my choices and so do you...I wonder what would happen if we, as women, could just celebrate and respect the choices that other moms make?
 

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1Path said:
IMHO, you don't seem to happy with your choice(s). It's pretty obvious that there's something else out there you'd rather do otherwise, why collect the degrees??

Actually, my post-bacc studies in biology and my MS in biology were meant to be stepping stones to getting back on the medical school path. Life changed that though...and so I am busy making the best of the degrees and life experience that I do have.

Futhermore, I don't know a child in the world that wants EITHER of their parents to not be happy AND fulfilled in their own lives since we ALL know that happy parents make the best parents.

Sure, path...I would love to see every mom and every dad happy and singing kukmbaya all of the time, but the reality of family life is compromise and in some cases when things don't go as planned it can mean that one partner or the other has to change their plans or put them on the back burner....and find a way to be happy with what they have for the time being.

Happy parents do make good parents....but parents who are absent 100 hours a week (in my opinion) may be happy, but again..IMO...they are teaching their children that their happiness is more important than their children.
 

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Again all of this depends on where your ambitions lie and your level of intelligence. If you aren't that smart and dislike college and academics, then it probably won't be a great personal loss if you become a stay at home mom. However, if you are academically talented and ambitious, it will be extremely disappointing to become a permanent stay at home mom for the most part.

I am glad that you are satisfied with your education. It's great that you were able to go back and get another degree. However, personally, I would not have been satisfied with just a masters and I'm sure many women on this board feel the same, and I definitely would not be happy with just a HS diploma, but everybody makes their choices in life.

Hi! Who are you, how old are you, and what the hell do you think gives you the right to judge other people's lives in this way?

This is the silliest, most ridiculous approach to life I've ever seen. I told my husband I'd read on the Internet that only stupid women stay home with their kids. He told me I've been reading too much Internet.

Fortunately for me and my future children, I don't let peer pressure or vague insults to my intelligence run my life. ;) The beauty of living in the late twentieth and early twenty-first centuries is that people have choices regardless of their gender. They can apply their skills where their passions lie, not where society dictates that someone with their sexual equipment must labor. Unfortunately for a lot of women, the pendulum is swinging the wrong way for them: no longer are we fighting for a place in the workplace, now we must fight to leave it.

Intelligence? I am quite confident I could have any professional degree I choose, from an M.D. to a D.V.M. to a J.D. to a Ph.D. I excelled in my physics studies and if that was where I wanted to continue to apply my energies I could be a couple of years from academia, tenure struggles, grant-writing, and all.

Funny thing, though. In my world, with my priorities, family will always come first. A job will always just be something to pay the bills. And since I've been fortunate enough to marry a man whose passions lie in medicine, I'll never have to worry about the bills as long as I'm with him. Why torture myself in the workplace, or accumulating a string of ultimately meaningless acronyms behind my name? I am satisfied -- I am thoroughly fulfilled -- by the prospect of turning my energies toward being a really great mother.

And ultimately, that's none of your beeswax.
 

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commymommy said:
You're pulling this discussion back to Agent and are speculating on his happiness as a divorced father? Whoa.
What? I don't remember doing that...

commymommy said:
I think it is possible to find happiness in other avenues and I don't know what the future holds for me. Will I ever get back on the medschool path? I don't konw...maybe when I'm 40...and maybe not. In the meantime, I'm trying to enjoy the journey instead of focusing on the destination.
I hope things work out for you, and that you get a chance to go tomed school, if thats what you truly want.

commymommy said:
I'm not fully satisified with where my life is at right now, but at the same time, I recognize that each choice that we make has pros and cons. If I chose med school now I might be more fulfilled on one level, but my marriage and family might not finish that journey with me. My husband is very supportive now...though that was not always the case. He has basically told me that if that is what I want he'd find a way to help me make it happen...the question though is what would become of OUR children (not yours) who have already survived residency and fellowship training and years of stress, moving and upheaval.
Children are pretty resilient. I moved several times as a child and liked the excitement of it. (This has nothing to do with the point, sorry.) I'm glad your husband is supportive of you.

commymommy said:
It is easy to look at someone else's life and think you could have made better choices or would manage things better. When my husband and I got married we were both heading on the same path....I was accepted to medical school and then I found out I was pg....I planned to keep working up until med school started and then to have a childcare provider come to my house...(aka nanny) and when they laid my son in my arms that all vanished for me. I have struggled for years with the pull to become 'more' and the reality that I have a child with special needs that would suffer if I went on. The reality is that my family and my marriage (not yours) desperately needs the stability both financially and emotionally that we had not had for the many, many years of my husband's training.
Whew. I can see why that would make things difficult. I have worked with children with special needs before, and it is hard to find resources, get the school district on board, etc.

commymommy said:
You know what they say about the best laid plans of mice and men, don't you? I made my choices and I don't regret them....most of the time.

I think that for me the bottom line is that I can respect the choices that you are making and have made in regards to parenting and your choice to work full-time, but I hear that both of you have little respect for any woman who chooses for whatever reason to stay at home...even if it is to bring peace into their marriage.
I think that you have misinterpreted my statements. Some people choose to be permanent stay-at-home moms. For me that would not be good choice, because I would be bitter and miserable. I got the vibe from your posts (correct me if I'm wrong) that you and you took on all of the burden of raising children, while your husband pretty much got to do what he wanted careerwise. Was it necessary to move so many times? Could he have done his residency and fellowship at a place with a med school? Sure it would have limited his options, but that's what compromise is about. Why does it always have to be the woman who gives up the career? If that's what you guys planned and are happy with, that's great, but that's what I see in your post; you giving up almost everything, and him giving up nothing.

commymommy said:
At the end of the day, the glass ceiling that we women complain about doesn't really exist....we are just holding each other back by out petty bickering. I feel a need to defend my choices and so do you...I wonder what would happen if we, as women, could just celebrate and respect the choices that other moms make?
To say that the glass ceiling doesn't exist is bull****. I guess it may seem trivial to someone who has never experienced discrimination in the workplace. Also, I just want to make it clear that I am not here to defend my choices. I don't have anything to defend.
 

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alison_in_oh said:
Hi! Who are you, how old are you, and what the hell do you think gives you the right to judge other people's lives in this way?

This is the silliest, most ridiculous approach to life I've ever seen. I told my husband I'd read on the Internet that only stupid women stay home with their kids. He told me I've been reading too much Internet.

Fortunately for me and my future children, I don't let peer pressure or vague insults to my intelligence run my life. ;) The beauty of living in the late twentieth and early twenty-first centuries is that people have choices regardless of their gender. They can apply their skills where their passions lie, not where society dictates that someone with their sexual equipment must labor. Unfortunately for a lot of women, the pendulum is swinging the wrong way for them: no longer are we fighting for a place in the workplace, now we must fight to leave it.

Intelligence? I am quite confident I could have any professional degree I choose, from an M.D. to a D.V.M. to a J.D. to a Ph.D. I excelled in my physics studies and if that was where I wanted to continue to apply my energies I could be a couple of years from academia, tenure struggles, grant-writing, and all.

Funny thing, though. In my world, with my priorities, family will always come first. A job will always just be something to pay the bills. And since I've been fortunate enough to marry a man whose passions lie in medicine, I'll never have to worry about the bills as long as I'm with him. Why torture myself in the workplace, or accumulating a string of ultimately meaningless acronyms behind my name? I am satisfied -- I am thoroughly fulfilled -- by the prospect of turning my energies toward being a really great mother.

And ultimately, that's none of your beeswax.

My statements are general observations. I don't count having the ambition to be a really great mother in the same category as being a doctor because most women, working or sahm, have the ambition to be good mothers, while not everybody has the ambition or the perseverance in some cases to get into medical school.

For some reason you and commymommy think that I look down on women who choose to end their career at the HS, college or masters level. All of my statements regarding education have been in relation to my own goals. I would not be fulfilled with a masters. I don't see why this is a problem. This is a site for people who want to be doctors; few people on this site stay at the masters level by choice. I also think having just a HS diploma as a sahm is impractical. As I said before, what if your husband leaves you or something happens to him? Most entry level positions require some type of college degree.

You said in your post that a job, to you, is something to pay the bills. If that's how you feel, good for you. However, many women do not feel this way. If my job meant only money, than I would go work at the local Walmart. Most of the advances in our society, (science, art, math, literature, music, medicine) have been made by people who are strongly committed to their careers, not from people who think of their jobs as just a way to pay the bills. When I look back on my life, I want to be considered in the former category. I want to make a contribution to the world beyond my children. For me, this will come from being a doctor.
 

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elin said:
My statements are general observations. I don't count having the ambition to be a really great mother in the same category as being a doctor because most women, working or sahm, have the ambition to be good mothers, while not everybody has the ambition or the perseverance in some cases to get into medical school.When I look back on my life, I want to be considered in the former category. I want to make a contribution to the world beyond my children. For me, this will come from being a doctor.


Bravo!!! :clap: :thumbup:
 

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elin said:
My statements are general observations. I don't count having the ambition to be a really great mother in the same category as being a doctor because most women, working or sahm, have the ambition to be good mothers, while not everybody has the ambition or the perseverance in some cases to get into medical school.

Having the 'ambition' to be a good mother is much different from actually being one.

elin said:
This is a site for people who want to be doctors;

Wrong again. You are currently posting in the spouse's forums..you know, the place where the spouse who is supporting your butt through this long process gets to come and have a mindless conversation about how few brain cells it takes to raise children, support their spouses and eventually make a life/career for themselves.

Good luck...I hope that things turn out for you as you have planned them.
 

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elin said:
For some reason you and commymommy think that I look down on women who choose to end their career at the HS, college or masters level. All of my statements regarding education have been in relation to my own goals. I would not be fulfilled with a masters. I don't see why this is a problem. This is a site for people who want to be doctors; few people on this site stay at the masters level by choice. I also think having just a HS diploma as a sahm is impractical. As I said before, what if your husband leaves you or something happens to him? Most entry level positions require some type of college degree.

Your compassion is admirable, but perhaps you'd best leave the worrying about my husbandless future to me. ;) All of your statements regarding education have been dripping with condescension. "If you're stupid, it's no loss for you to stay home." "If you are competely lacking in ambition, go ahead and stay home." I paraphrase, of course.

I agree with commymommy here. We're all women; we're all making the choices we feel are best for ourselves and our families (that includes our husbands as well as our children, of course). What's wrong with supporting each other in that?

You said in your post that a job, to you, is something to pay the bills. If that's how you feel, good for you.

Yep, it is good for me. :)

Most of the advances in our society, (science, art, math, literature, music, medicine) have been made by people who are strongly committed to their careers, not from people who think of their jobs as just a way to pay the bills. When I look back on my life, I want to be considered in the former category. I want to make a contribution to the world beyond my children. For me, this will come from being a doctor.

If that's how you feel, good for you. The world definitely needs talented people who are committed to making a difference in the world at large. My beef is with putting love, life, people and connections second to that ambition. If you really feel that raising children is something that can be sidelined, I question your motives in bringing them into the world in the first place. There's no harm and no shame in refraining from procreating; there's no gap in the burgeoning population waiting to be filled by your offspring.

As for making a difference, all God's chillen have a place in the choir, after all. ;)
 

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commymommy said:
Having the 'ambition' to be a good mother is much different from actually being one.

Yes, we all know that having the 'ambition' to be a good mother is much different from being one. So what are you suggesting? That sahm make more commitment to that ambition?


commymommy said:
Wrong again. You are currently posting in the spouse's forums..you know, the place where the spouse who is supporting your butt through this long process gets to come and have a mindless conversation about how few brain cells it takes to raise children, support their spouses and eventually make a life/career for themselves.

Good luck...I hope that things turn out for you as you have planned them.
And some of those spouses are working moms with high powered careers...so what's your point? Get off the bitter bus already. I have tried to be polite to you. Some of my earlier posts were written in haste and may not have been tactful, but I have explained that I do not think sahm are stupid. I don't know why you insist on sticking with this point. In any case, I think that your situation is different from ali in she doesn't plan on med school or education after the BA. Finally, if you don't want people to respond to your situation, then don't post it on the internet.
 

delchrys

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why is it that "being a successful woman" means, to so many people, "being a good mother" and then MAYBE "being good in a career, subject to the limitations created by being a good mother"???

it seems like (no, no 'seems'--it definitely IS the case that) people, men and women alike, tend to view childrearing as "the mother's" responsibility. guys are still seen as some kind of goofy, in-over-his-head Mr. Mom type when we see media portrayals of men taking care of kids, and women have only slightly edged up the charts in terms of being seen as able to work a career and raise kids.

how many woman who have kids and a career can be heard to say "it's tough to manage raising my children while maintaining a strong presence in my chosen profession" or something similar? i'd say quite a lot. now, how many MEN say that? like, zero. more often, men say "it's a lot of work, busting my ass every day for my family (at work), especially now that Susan (or whoever his wife is) has started working--it means i need to do my part and pick up around the house and make dinner from time-to-time."

notice the difference? there's a social presumption that it is women's responsibility to raise the kids, and all else they might do is secondary and subject to the the primary task of childrearing. at the same time, the presumption about men is that they will work to provide for the family.

as a man who is on track to be a househusband and raise his kids, it's irritating that these social values have not changed much since before WWII. the main difference is that now women can choose to be stay-at-homes, or career women, or both, while guys who chose to be stay-at-home dads are generally viewed as flaky fruitcakes or terminal deadbeats.

you gals should be grateful that society grants you as much latitude in your decisions as it does. i wish i had so much freedom of choice without fear of social stigma.

i do know one thing--it's both parents' responsibilty to see to it that their kids are raised well. if the guy or the woman stays home, i don't care, but it needs to be worked out so that both parties can maximize their personal happiness in their pursuits without compromising the quality of their children's upbringing.

women who attack other women who pursue careers in the face of having children should be ashamed of themselves, though no more than should be the women who attack the women who stay home to raise their children. the only important things are personal/familial happiness, and raising children who won't become serial killers.
 

alison_in_oh

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delchrys said:
why is it that "being a successful woman" means, to so many people, "being a good mother" and then MAYBE "being good in a career, subject to the limitations created by being a good mother"???

I'd disagree with that assessment. Perhaps, "devoting the majority of one's energy to one's highest priority, be that family or career".

it seems like (no, no 'seems'--it definitely IS the case that) people, men and women alike, tend to view childrearing as "the mother's" responsibility. guys are still seen as some kind of goofy, in-over-his-head Mr. Mom type when we see media portrayals of men taking care of kids, and women have only slightly edged up the charts in terms of being seen as able to work a career and raise kids.

That's why this is a discussion that should transcend gender barriers. There's the small biological difference of the maternal role, the simple fact that it's the woman's body that provides the majority of the child's nourishment for the first few years. But other than that, in this modern society there is no reason for a man or a woman to be railroaded away from home life; there's no reason for a full-time at-home parent to be maligned.

notice the difference? there's a social presumption that it is women's responsibility to raise the kids, and all else they might do is secondary and subject to the the primary task of childrearing. at the same time, the presumption about men is that they will work to provide for the family.

Why not shed those shackles? Why not put both parents' roles front and center, with the duty of providing going to the parent with the greater drive to pursue work outside of the home, and the duty of childrearing going to the parent with the desire to dabble in psychology, home economics, biology, chemistry, and all the myriad facets of a homemaker's daily grind?

the main difference is that now women can choose to be stay-at-homes, or career women, or both, while guys who chose to be stay-at-home dads are generally viewed as flaky fruitcakes or terminal deadbeats.

you gals should be grateful that society grants you as much latitude in your decisions as it does. i wish i had so much freedom of choice without fear of social stigma.

Ah, but don't you see the stigma of flaky fruitcake simmering in this thread?

i do know one thing--it's both parents' responsibilty to see to it that their kids are raised well. if the guy or the woman stays home, i don't care, but it needs to be worked out so that both parties can maximize their personal happiness in their pursuits without compromising the quality of their children's upbringing.

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.
 

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delchrys said:
the main difference is that now women can choose to be stay-at-homes, or career women, or both, while guys who chose to be stay-at-home dads are generally viewed as flaky fruitcakes or terminal deadbeats.
.

Well actually, many women can't choose to be stay at home Moms. Every heard of a single/divoirced parent?

And I also like to idea of stay at home Dads personally but what I wonder what some of these current and former SAHM's would think about that?? I'd bet they wouldn't like it too much.
 

alison_in_oh

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elin said:
In any case, I think that your situation is different from ali in she doesn't plan on med school or education after the BA.

LOL. I take it I'm "ali"?

So commymommy, who started out with her priority on med school but found that life threw her some curveballs, has your respect because she achieved several degrees along the way? But I, who have chosen to support my husband in medical school (and to try my hand at a wide variety of stimulating classes including physics, statistics, and management) rather than throwing away our family's future by taking on debt for his training and my own in pursuit of a higher degree toward a time-consuming career I'd find less fulfilling than homemaking, deserve only your scorn?

That's super. :)

Good thing it's not your respect I live for, eh? ;)
 

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alison_in_oh said:
LOL. I take it I'm "ali"?

So commymommy, who started out with her priority on med school but found that life threw her some curveballs, has your respect because she achieved several degrees along the way? But I, who have chosen to support my husband in medical school (and to try my hand at a wide variety of stimulating classes including physics, statistics, and management) rather than throwing away our family's future by taking on debt for his training and my own in pursuit of a higher degree toward a time-consuming career I'd find less fulfilling than homemaking, deserve only your scorn?

That's super. :)

Good thing it's not your respect I live for, eh? ;)

The end of Commymommy's comment was about supporting spouses who want to eventually make a career for themselves, leading me to the conclusion that she eventually wants a career once her children are older and settled. You said in your post that you don't want a career, and that you've decided to devote your life to raising children. I said nothing negative about your choices in any of my posts, only that your choices aren't the ones that all women want to make. I admire commymommy because she seems to have made the best out of a difficult situation and handled it with some grace, not because she has a couple of degrees after her name. Frankly, I don't see why you care whether or not I have respect for you. If you were secure in your decision, then there wouldn't be a need to be so defensive. Maybe you can add a reading comprehension class to that list of stimulating activities. Now that would be super!
 

commymommy

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No, 'ali' :D I don't have her respect either because I merely 'settled' for less than being at the top of the heap that she feels is the most important. After all, a nanny could be driving my kids to dance... :rolleyes:


Do sahm make more of a commitment to being a good mother? That is a loaded question...and one that I don't know the answer to. I speak as a mom who has been a sahm, worked part-time, worked full-time, been a sahm again and now works part-time....I don't know.

But lets draw that statement out of the world of mommydom and bring it into the medical arena as a sort of...analogy.

Does the dr 2b who forgoes having children to dedicate her life to medicine have a greater commitment to being a good doctor?
 

LADoc00

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Commymommy do you think that's a funny name? Kind of like Nazidaddy, Genocidejimmy and Hitlerhomer. Commies arent funny, they kill people. Over 80 million the last time I checked.
http://www.freedomsnest.com/rummel_prc.html

Grow up. thanks
 

commymommy

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Since you know nothing about how this username came into being, perhaps you should keep your opinions to yourself...I was dubbed the 'commymommy' here for standing up for the rights of the uninsured and the poor...for supporting a universal healthcare program of some sort and for believing that equal access to quality education is something that we have to try to achieve. Many of your braniac med student wannabes here don't seem to understand the difference between socialistic ideas (or simple compassion for others) and communism and after being dubbed the commymommy I finally just changed my username.

Why don't you try .... asking next time before you attack someone you don't even know..

idiot :rolleyes:
 

delchrys

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so is the original issue posed by the OP so insignificant or unworthy of being discussed that once again the conversation needs to be derailed into some ignorant libelfest?

i'm not directing it at anyone in particular, just everyone who's posted some crap that does nothing to further the original discussion or anything reasonably related to it...
 

cytoborg

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alison_in_oh said:
And since I've been fortunate enough to marry a man whose passions lie in medicine, I'll never have to worry about the bills as long as I'm with him. Why torture myself in the workplace, or accumulating a string of ultimately meaningless acronyms behind my name? I am satisfied -- I am thoroughly fulfilled -- by the prospect of turning my energies toward being a really great mother.
I find this disturbing. Why do you view acronyms as "ultimately meaningless"? Because you're a woman who wants children and somehow this negates the significance of a degree? What about female doctors who have children? Is their work as a physician "ultimately meaningless," taking a back seat in karmic importance to motherhood? The acronyms behind your husband's name are apparently not meaningless to you, since you are "fortunate" to be with a man in medicine. Either this is a glaring double standard, or you likewise see little value in his degree beyond its ability to support your SAHM lifestyle.

Those of us - male and female - who torture ourselves in the workplace accumulating a string of ultimately meaningless acronyms behind our names are delivering your babies, evaluating your breast biopsies, pumping your kid's stomach, and resecting your father's cancer. Please think twice before suggesting our acronyms are meaningless.
 

alison_in_oh

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cytoborg said:
Please think twice before suggesting our acronyms are meaningless.

I needn't think as frequently as that, since I've no intention of making such a suggestion from the get-go.

The workplace is unnecessary torture for me; accumulating degrees would for me be a simple practice of accumulating acronyms because I've no intention of putting the meat of the education to use anytime soon. I'm not making claims about anyone else's choices here. The only claim I'm making is that everyone's personal choice should be celebrated; thank whatever deities you choose that we live in a time of such freedom!

I do apologize for getting you into such a tizzy though!
 

alison_in_oh

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elin said:
You said in your post that you don't want a career, and that you've decided to devote your life to raising children.

alison_in_oh said:
Why torture myself in the workplace, or accumulating a string of ultimately meaningless acronyms behind my name? I am satisfied -- I am thoroughly fulfilled -- by the prospect of turning my energies toward being a really great mother.

Don't want a career? Yup. Don't need to define myself in that way. Devote a life to raising children? I'm quite sure that is impossible, in fact it is contradictory to my ultimate vision of my future. I certainly hope to devote my children's childhoods to their rearing, putting them first and rejecting income in favor of time at home. And I hope to do this as soon as possible in order to later enjoy my husband's early retirement with him. :D Now, homemaking and leisure activities shared with the people I love? That I care enough about to make my highest priority and my lifetime pursuit -- and I bet I could even do it well enough to squeeze in a part-time job to exercise the ol' brain-muscle to boot. ;)

Frankly, I don't see why you care whether or not I have respect for you. If you were secure in your decision, then there wouldn't be a need to be so defensive. Maybe you can add a reading comprehension class to that list of stimulating activities. Now that would be super!

alison_in_oh said:
Good thing it's not your respect I live for, eh?

Speaking of reading for comprehension, I do believe I stated I don't give a rat's heinie what you think of me and my choices. :D
 

alison_in_oh

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delchrys said:
so is the original issue posed by the OP so insignificant or unworthy of being discussed that once again the conversation needs to be derailed into some ignorant libelfest?

i'm not directing it at anyone in particular, just everyone who's posted some crap that does nothing to further the original discussion or anything reasonably related to it...

I agree with the assessment that there's a bit of crap floating about in this sub-thread, but thread drift happens, especially two and a half years after the original post was made!
 
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