When is Obama going to stop campaigning?

[coprolalia]

Some of the controversy over Obama's speech involved a proposed lesson plan created by the Education Department to accompany the address. An initial version of the plan recommended that students draft letters to themselves discussing "what they can do to help the president."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/08/obama.school.speech/index.html

I mean, seriously. Doesn't the man have better things to do with his time? Ummm, you know, like focusing on the multi-TRILLION dollar debt he is adding to this country?

I seriously hope that people see this for the thinly-veiled politicking that it is, and not the purportedly inspirational speech from the Commander-in-Chief they want you to believe it was.

-copro

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[deleted50478]

When this is waving at the post office.

 

[jwk]

He won't stop campaigning until after the next election. Once he leaves office (pray for only one term) he can work on his legacy - not that Carter and Clinton have had any luck with that.

 

[meister]

The multi-trillion dollar deficit George W. Bush left him as a parting gift. You know, two wars, stupid taxcuts, Medicare part D. All that good stuff.



Lol republicans, no shame at all.

 

[jwk]

The multi-trillion dollar deficit George W. Bush left him as a parting gift. You know, two wars, stupid taxcuts, Medicare part D. All that good stuff.



Lol republicans, no shame at all.

Poor kid - you drank the KoolAid, didn't you.

Obama has increased the deficit more than all the presidents before him combined, from Washington to W.

Was Bush perfect? Of course not. Obama is downright nuts.

 

[Matty44]

Was Bush perfect? Of course not. Obama is downright nuts.

I'll second that. How can all these silly liberals be so blind? And when will they finally start attributing present day things to Obama and stop pretending it's all carryover from Bush......when Obama's out of office?

 

[IDBasco]

I'll second that. How can all these silly liberals be so blind? And when will they finally start attributing present day things to Obama and stop pretending it's all carryover from Bush......when Obama's out of office?

Don't you know? A democrat's success is based on his intents, not the outcome...they get points for feeling your pain, rather than getting rid of it. As long as they say the right things, they are successful.

 

[Narcotized]

The multi-trillion dollar deficit George W. Bush left him as a parting gift. You know, two wars, stupid taxcuts, Medicare part D. All that good stuff.

Lol republicans, no shame at all.

While independents with a mind of their own lol at you both. So what is Obama's goal? To win the debt game of "Can you top this?" Gee, that sure is "Change We Need."

 

[UTKB]

Independents are spineless, inconsistent wimps afraid to make up their own minds, afraid of offending anyone and wanting to be liked by everyone.

 

[Matty44]

Independents are spineless, inconsistent wimps afraid to make up their own minds, afraid of offending anyone and wanting to be liked by everyone.

True, but at least they're not as spineless as a certain Mr. Specter.

 

[dillpickles]

Independents are spineless, inconsistent wimps afraid to make up their own minds, afraid of offending anyone and wanting to be liked by everyone.

This independent's opinion of above statement:

 

[Matty44]

So Mr. Independent, are you for more, or less governmental control of your life?...just in general...

 

[tjaze]

Independents are spineless, inconsistent wimps afraid to make up their own minds, afraid of offending anyone and wanting to be liked by everyone.

those that choose one side are a bunch of monkeys mindlessly repeating one ideology for all issues rather than creating a reasonable opinion seperately for each. and i'm not defending obama, i'm sick of his crap too

 

[Matty44]

Someone who has a strong core of principles and beliefs is able to make informed decisions based off of their framework of values and ideals, in any situation, regardless of the current political environment. Those who make judgments with out any base of principles to stand on are easily swayed by emotions and peer pressure, and the like. Haven't you ever heard the saying, "those who stand for everything, stand for nothing?" Not that I'm advocating one must vote the party line in every circumstance, cause I'm not. But I do find that I have a hard time figuring out what most "independents" truly believe in, and frankly, I'd venture to say that a lot of them don't even know themselves.

 

[meister]

Poor kid - you drank the KoolAid, didn't you.

Obama has increased the deficit more than all the presidents before him combined, from Washington to W.

Was Bush perfect? Of course not. Obama is downright nuts.

Yeah, um, if you care about reality and not your constructed straw-man, you'll be happy to note that over half of the budget deficit projections come directly from Bush policies or extensions of Bush policies. Another third from the recession.

Obama doesn't own the terrible shape of the country, the GOP does. Just FYI. They captained the ship, they decreased regulation dramatically, they caused the housing crisis, they cut taxes irresponsibly, they created vast new government bureaucracies (DHS anyone?), they passed gigantic healthcare legislation without any sort of hint of budgetary restraint. (Medicare part D to cost $40t with zero concern for where the money would come from.) I haven't even mentioned the wars or torture or any of that other horrible stuff.

I mean, damn, you can hate Obama all you want but to pretend he's done more than Bush at wrecking the country at this point is just being in denial. Deal with the fact that your party is so far astray from the days of Eisenhower or WFB that you are just in a daze.

Also, LOL at any card-carrying GOPer decrying fascism or state power when they just created an entire agency (DHS) to harass regular citizens and migrant workers, oh and also setting up a vast torture network across the globe run in large part by unaccountable private contractors at Blackwater. Oh and also there were no WMDs and bin Laden is still out there and blah blah blah it goes on and on.

 

[meister]

The irony here is that Obama is doing 95% of the same stuff W was doing, and that there really isn't much of a difference between the parties at this point. They both cater to powerful monied interests and have little concern for the welfare of the general public. And by the way, the stimulus package was 50% tax cuts.

Don't let that stop you from attacking windmills though.

 

[IDBasco]

The irony here is that Obama is doing 95% of the same stuff W was doing, and that there really isn't much of a difference between the parties at this point. They both cater to powerful monied interests and have little concern for the welfare of the general public. And by the way, the stimulus package was 50% tax cuts.

Don't let that stop you from attacking windmills though.

50% huh? More like a third.

http://www.recovery.gov/?q=content/investments

The fact is, Obama owns every decision he has made since his first day in office. Enough of this bull**** victim garbage about how he was handed a huge national debt. What has he done to reverse it? Spend more? They have not only rammed one stimulus through without the supposed "transparency" and 5 days (or whatever) they were going to give the public to read new bills, but they have now talked about stimulus part 2, Biden particularly.

A lot of true conservatives aren't excited with what Bush did (unlike dems, we can criticize our own side), but the answer for spending too much money is not to spend even more on things that you like just to make up for it. I guess as long as its Obama putting the country on track for DOUBLING the national debt in 10 years, that makes it ok, right? After all, if Bush did it...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090825/pl_nm/us_obama_budget

As for windmills? Even T Boone Pickens realized it was a waste and bailed out. Do I need to bring up the fact that Pelosi was invested in wind power while pushing those new energy initiatives? Hmm. Seems like she might be trying to legislate herself some profits.

 

[pgg]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/08/obama.school.speech/index.html

I mean, seriously. Doesn't the man have better things to do with his time?

Maybe instead of a speech to all schoolchildren, he could find a kindergarten class and read "My Pet Goat" to it. I understand the White House Library already has a copy.

Perhaps he could take a few "working vacation" days and do some yard work.

I mean, seriously - god knows there's plenty of fertile ground for criticism of this administration, but just what is the problem with a president speaking to kids in school and telling them (this is straight from the speech, by the way):

• you're responsible for your own education
• work hard
• listen to and respect your teachers, parents, and grandparents
• get involved with your school
• that he acknowledges the hardships they may face, but that said hardships are not an excuse to for failure and general juvenile delinquency
• you can't be rich and successful without hard work
• don't quit

I mean, seriously - just what is there to criticize in THAT?

Every one of those points (except perhaps "don't quit") could have come out of Sarah Palin's mouth and you'd be delivering a standing ovation.

Yes, he's adding $trillions in debt and future obligations above and beyond what his predecessor piled on, and yes all that deserves opposition and outrage, but let's be at least a little selective in our criticism. When you get to the point that you're griping about him telling students to study, or what he had for breakfast, you're not projecting an image of rational, thoughtful opposition.

 

[Narcotized]

Independents are spineless, inconsistent wimps afraid to make up their own minds, afraid of offending anyone and wanting to be liked by everyone.

I guess it intimidates you that some people are capable of their own original thought.

 

[Narcotized]

So Mr. Independent, are you for more, or less governmental control of your life?...just in general...

Less government and more fiscal responsibility. That immediately eliminates both parties.

 

[meister]

Less government and more fiscal responsibility. That immediately eliminates both parties.

Where's the party that wants to eviscerate military spending or eliminate corporate tax loopholes or subsidy? Again, doesn't exist.

 

[meister]

The last Republican who left the office of the presidency with the federal public debt as a percentage of GDP less than when he entered was Richard Nixon (FY 1975). The last Republican who left the office of the presidency with a federal deficit less than 2.7% of GDP was Dwight Eisenhower (FY 1961). Since WW II no Democratic president has ever left office with the federal public debt as a percentage of GDP more than when he entered. And since WW II no Democratic president has ever left office with a federal deficit more than 2.6% of GDP.
We already have at least one party of fiscal responsibility. It's called the Democratic Party.

Andrew Sullivan has more.

The equivalence often drawn up between dems and the gop is false, I should clarify. The republicans are the teenagers with their dad's credit card. They do not know how to govern responsibly.

 

[deleted50478]

As for windmills? Even T Boone Pickens realized it was a waste and bailed out. Do I need to bring up the fact that Pelosi was invested in wind power while pushing those new energy initiatives? Hmm. Seems like she might be trying to legislate herself some profits.

I'm pretty sure that was a Don Quixote reference.

I think independents mostly stand for freedom. Freedom from government intrusion into almost every aspect of your life (anti-democrat party) freedom from social/religious intrusion from the government (anti-republican party).

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty." George Washington

Does anyone NOT think Obama wants to turn this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation?

 

[jwk]

Maybe instead of a speech to all schoolchildren, he could find a kindergarten class and read "My Pet Goat" to it. I understand the White House Library already has a copy.

Perhaps he could take a few "working vacation" days and do some yard work.

I mean, seriously - god knows there's plenty of fertile ground for criticism of this administration, but just what is the problem with a president speaking to kids in school and telling them (this is straight from the speech, by the way):

• you're responsible for your own education
• work hard
• listen to and respect your teachers, parents, and grandparents
• get involved with your school
• that he acknowledges the hardships they may face, but that said hardships are not an excuse to for failure and general juvenile delinquency
• you can't be rich and successful without hard work
• don't quit

I mean, seriously - just what is there to criticize in THAT?

The problem was the suggested "lesson plan" that was going to come along with it (which was dropped due to significant opposition). "How can YOU help the president?"

Try not to forget/ignore the rest of the story.

 

[Matty44]

Less government and more fiscal responsibility. That immediately eliminates both parties.

I'm a conservative. That sure doesn't eliminate me.

 

[jwk]

The irony here is that Obama is doing 95% of the same stuff W was doing, and that there really isn't much of a difference between the parties at this point. They both cater to powerful monied interests and have little concern for the welfare of the general public. And by the way, the stimulus package was 50% tax cuts.

Don't let that stop you from attacking windmills though.

Just curious - have you even paid income taxes yet? And I mean actually paid them, not have them withheld and then get it all back because your income level was too low? Of course maybe you're one who got a "tax rebate" even though you didn't actually pay any taxes.

 

[meister]

Just curious - have you even paid income taxes yet? And I mean actually paid them, not have them withheld and then get it all back because your income level was too low? Of course maybe you're one who got a "tax rebate" even though you didn't actually pay any taxes.

Oh look an ignorant person making accusations based on nothing. I expect nothing less.

Seriously to the GOPers out there: get your own house in order before waiting for Obama to fail. Sarah Palin is an empty suit know-nothing. Newt Gingrich is broken. I can't think of any reasonable opposition out there, just naked ambition and cynicism. Very sad.

Andrew Sullivan and Bruce Bartlett maybe. You should check them out some time. Kill the wedding of the social conservatives with the supposed fiscal conservatives.

 

[jwk]

Oh look an ignorant person making accusations based on nothing. I expect nothing less.

Seriously to the GOPers out there: get your own house in order before waiting for Obama to fail. Sarah Palin is an empty suit know-nothing. Newt Gingrich is broken. I can't think of any reasonable opposition out there, just naked ambition and cynicism. Very sad.

Andrew Sullivan and Bruce Bartlett maybe. You should check them out some time. Kill the wedding of the social conservatives with the supposed fiscal conservatives.

I'm sorry, was the answer to my question buried in their somewhere?

And are you always this pissy?

 

[pgg]

The problem was the suggested "lesson plan" that was going to come along with it (which was dropped due to significant opposition). "How can YOU help the president?"

Try not to forget/ignore the rest of the story.

The problem with that opposition was that it came off as rabid, tinfoil-hat fear of Obama creating an "Obama Youth" movement complete with Hope-N-Change branded knives and stiff-arm salutes.

God forbid he should ask kids to think about ways they can serve their country, which was clearly his intent. He was clumsily borrowing from JFK's "ask not" line, not trying to enlist kids in the Obama Secret Police.


Again, there's plenty to criticize Obama for. When Republicans go off the deep end and fixate on trivialities like a speech to schoolkids they just undermine their own cause.

Pelosi/Reid have got to be LOVING this distraction from the important things they're screwing up.

 

[coprolalia]

The problem with that opposition was that it came off as rabid, tinfoil-hat fear of Obama creating an "Obama Youth" movement complete with Hope-N-Change branded knives and stiff-arm salutes.

And... I'll requote again...

Some of the controversy over Obama's speech involved a proposed lesson plan created by the Education Department to accompany the address. An initial version of the plan recommended that students draft letters to themselves discussing "what they can do to help the president."

Not themselves. Not the country. The man.

God forbid he should ask kids to think about ways they can serve their country, which was clearly his intent. He was clumsily borrowing from JFK's "ask not" line, not trying to enlist kids in the Obama Secret Police.

You are too generous. I didn't read it this way at all. But, what we got instead was a watered-down version of his original speech, which should've been canceled altogether.

Again, there's plenty to criticize Obama for. When Republicans go off the deep end and fixate on trivialities like a speech to schoolkids they just undermine their own cause.

Pelosi/Reid have got to be LOVING this distraction from the important things they're screwing up.

This doesn't take away from his other screw-ups (or the other Dems screw-ups). It just adds to them.

Listen, George W. Bush was a ***** and easily swayable. He surrounded himself with scary people that influenced him.

What's scary about Obama is that he not a *****, but instead an inexperienced idealist who wants to ram through an agenda of "change" without really thinking enough about the details. And, as we know, the devil is always in the details.

So, please, Mr. President, don't waste any more of the taxpayers time trying to indoctrinate (yes, indoctrinate) children into your idealistic way you see the world. Thank you. Why don't you focus on the problems of getting this nation out of debt, and out of conflicts in the Middle East we never should've been in in the first place. Cap wasteful government spending. Increase trade. Empower companies to get the constipated economy back on track and people back to work. Surely, talking to school children isn't going to accomplish that, is it?

-copro

 

[meister]

I'm sorry, was the answer to my question buried in their somewhere?

And are you always this pissy?

Guess you'll just have to villify me as your standard welfare queen then eh? Or whatever cookie-cutter stereotype makes it easier for you to summarily dismiss an argument rather than think critically.

 

[pgg]

Why don't you focus on the problems of getting this nation out of debt, and out of conflicts in the Middle East we never should've been in in the first place. Cap wasteful government spending. Increase trade. Empower companies to get the constipated economy back on track and people back to work.

Agree, agree, agree. Completely.

With the caveat that the Taliban / AQ / Afghanistan conflict was and is necessary.

Surely, talking to school children isn't going to accomplish that, is it?

Oh for god's sake, this administration isn't failing us because of a 30-minute harmless media appearance. It's failing because it's trying to borrow and spend its way out of debt by massively expanding government entitlements to nonproductive citizens.

You're calling a speech to schoolkids an irresponsible distraction from what's important. I'm calling the pointless, needless freakout storm of Freeper outrage over the speech an even greater distraction.

I think we want the same thing. I just can't get worked up and concerned about this silly speech or the even sillier outrage over it.


Did you really - I mean really - believe that his "help the president" bit was an attempt to create an Obama Youth cult? It's no wonder conservatives got voted out of office by a nice suit and soothing words. They're constantly getting distracted by irrelevancies like gay marriage, abortion, prayer in schools, and now the ominous threat of a Hit^H^H^HObama Youth cult.

Oooh! Something shiny! Wait, uh, what were we talking about?

 

[meister]

pgg I may disagree with you politically but it sure would be nice if the GOP had more reasonable voices out there like yours. As it stands it's largely a cult driven by identity politics with no real beliefs.

 

[LSU Alex]

I'm a conservative. That sure doesn't eliminate me.

It doesn't eliminate you, but it doesn't necessarily include either party. The problem is that those who aren't independents are trying to look at independents as if they are "a party" or "one party". That doesn't make sense. There are independents who are all over the political spectrum, and they have their own ideas/voices. The "he who defends all, defends nothing" quote a previous poster put up is good and all, but well thought out beliefs and ideals are way too complicated for a 2-party system.

 

[UTKB]

Wow, I get it intimidates you that some people are capable of their own original thought and aren't a cult following dope like yourself. You are so incredibly frickin stupid and thoughtless, how did you possible get through high school, let alone med school??? Keep being a mindless follower, lead right off the cliff.

Was that offensive enough for you??

Haha wow, throw a stone at a pack of dogs and the one who gets hit barks first, or something like that? You're pathetic.

 

[Matty44]

...but well thought out beliefs and ideals are way too complicated for a 2-party system.

Agreed, but since we are stuck with this two party system (realistically at least), wouldn't it behoove us to go with the one that's not trying to push a right-middle country FAR to the left?

 

[jwk]

Guess you'll just have to villify me as your standard welfare queen then eh? Or whatever cookie-cutter stereotype makes it easier for you to summarily dismiss an argument rather than think critically.

It's a real simple question - is there a reason you're not answering?

 

[coprolalia]

Did you really - I mean really - believe that his "help the president" bit was an attempt to create an Obama Youth cult?

No, of course not. That is reductio ad absurdum extremism promulgated by people who will not accept anything the man says.

What I do believe, though, is that this speech - the original version asking kids to draft letters to "help the president" and not the watered-down one we got - is emblematic of a self-important, starstruck, Obama-the-name-is-bigger-than-the-man-himself "personality cult" figure who's strives to foment an impression of continued mock-humility and self-importance predicated on an ego-need that drives him to be more "Mr. Popular" instead of "Mr. President".

The speech to the kids was superfluous and irrelevant.

That was my only point.

But, he did it anyway.

Thumbing his nose at the populace who said it was a stupid idea.

Yet, he won't really engage, or even acknowledge, the far-from-hollow threats of Kim Jong Il or Ahmadinejad.

This is a guy who continually mistakes his priorities for the Nation's... and that is an extremely worrisome habit he repeatedly displays.

-copro

 

[Haole]

The irony here is that Obama is doing 95% of the same stuff W was doing...

So why then are you not first here to agree rather than turn this into an argument about political parties. Nobody here is praising Bush or the republican party for the fine job they did representing the conservatives that voted for them.

You were the first to attack the opposition in this thread by labeling it "republicans who have no shame". This isn't about parties. Your posts reek more of "identity politics" than anyone else's here.

Are you happy with the change?

 

[Narcotized]

I'm a conservative. That sure doesn't eliminate me.

It may not eliminate you, but being in favor of fiscal responsibility completely obliterates being in favor of either major party in any possible way.

 

[deleted50478]

It may not eliminate you, but being in favor of fiscal responsibility completely obliterates being in favor of either major party in any possible way.

That's why we should all be for campaign finance reform and term limits. Every idiot thing the government does make sense when you follow the money.

 

[Narcotized]

You're pathetic.

Yeah, I'm just a wimp because I'm capable of independent thought. Run along, your cult is calling you for more Koolaide.

 

[coprolalia]

No, of course not. That is reductio ad absurdum extremism promulgated by people who will not accept anything the man says.

What I do believe, though, is that this speech - the original version asking kids to draft letters to "help the president" and not the watered-down one we got - is emblematic of a self-important, starstruck, Obama-the-name-is-bigger-than-the-man-himself "personality cult" figure who's strives to foment an impression of continued mock-humility and self-importance predicated on an ego-need that drives him to be more "Mr. Popular" instead of "Mr. President".

The speech to the kids was superfluous and irrelevant.

That was my only point.

But, he did it anyway.

Thumbing his nose at the populace who said it was a stupid idea.

Yet, he won't really engage, or even acknowledge, the far-from-hollow threats of Kim Jong Il or Ahmadinejad.

This is a guy who continually mistakes his priorities for the Nation's... and that is an extremely worrisome habit he repeatedly displays.

-copro

What I said here is spot-on and excellently summarized. So, I'm quoting myself. Read it again. Especially the bolded part.

-copro

 

[Narcotized]

That's why we should all be for campaign finance reform and term limits. Every idiot thing the government does make sense when you follow the money.

Bingo. Right on the money. But be careful; some nimrod might call you a wimp capable of independent thought.

 

[meister]

It's a real simple question - is there a reason you're not answering?

Because your question is offensively irrelevant and only belies your contempt for poor people?

 

[meister]

So why then are you not first here to agree rather than turn this into an argument about political parties. Nobody here is praising Bush or the republican party for the fine job they did representing the conservatives that voted for them.

You were the first to attack the opposition in this thread by labeling it "republicans who have no shame". This isn't about parties. Your posts reek more of "identity politics" than anyone else's here.

Are you happy with the change?

Ok this thread was started by a guy who quite clearly is delightfully ignoring any GOP complicity in anything and the second post was someone unironically posting an Obama-as-soviet flag. Then a guy mentioned Carter and other nonsense. You have to be pretty obtuse to not get the message there.

I'm not happy with Obama or the dems but probably will never be. However the false equivalence between the parties is something that bears repeating. The GOP have shown no qualms with spending like mad, starting illegal wars, initiating massive wealth transfers from the middle class to the wealthy, and using abortion, gays and race as nice political strawmen to stay in power at all costs.

The bottom line is that while the dems are pretty bad, the GOP is tremendously worse. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that is probably a theocrat, a neocon, or an anarchocapitalist.

 

[deleted50478]

Ok this thread was started by a guy who quite clearly is delightfully ignoring any GOP complicity in anything and the second post was someone unironically posting an Obama-as-soviet flag. Then a guy mentioned Carter and other nonsense. You have to be pretty obtuse to not get the message there.

I'm not happy with Obama or the dems but probably will never be. However the false equivalence between the parties is something that bears repeating. The GOP have shown no qualms with spending like mad, starting illegal wars, initiating massive wealth transfers from the middle class to the wealthy, and using abortion, gays and race as nice political strawmen to stay in power at all costs.

The bottom line is that while the dems are pretty bad, the GOP is tremendously worse. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that is probably a theocrat, a neocon, or an anarchocapitalist.

The reason that Democrats are actually worse is that their programs, once established, will last forever. The misery of the few people who can't afford insurance, get sick, and have a worse outcome as a result pales in comparison to the misery of hundreds of millions when this country collapses under a mountain of debt, created by politicians who may or may not have thought they were doing good. Yes Bush spent a lot of money we don't have fighting wars, but they will end. Social programs never end. They only grow, get more expensive, and harm future generations more than they help current ones.

 

[pgg]

emblematic of a self-important, starstruck, Obama-the-name-is-bigger-than-the-man-himself "personality cult" figure who's strives to foment an impression of continued mock-humility and self-importance predicated on an ego-need that drives him to be more "Mr. Popular" instead of "Mr. President".

One of the things that vaguely disturbed me during the election was the ubiquity of the Obama portrait posters. Western democracies generally don't put murals of leaders on buildings or wave their portraits at rallies. So I can't really argue with your "personality cult" characterization.

But still, when I look at the strident objections to his school speech, I can't help but think of mountains, molehills, tempests, and teacups.

Anyway, I'm off to read tonight's transcript to get an idea of how bad the damage is going to be.

 

[coprolalia]

... I can't really argue with your "personality cult" characterization.

I don't trust the guy. Not because I think he's malevolent. I think he just really doesn't care about people who don't share his vision of what's "right" and what's "wrong". It's just that simple. Do I think he's Clinton? No. As my avatar attests, I think he's Carter all over again... but maybe a little smarter and, at the same time, maybe a little more naive.

-copro

 

[pgg]

Yes Bush spent a lot of money we don't have fighting wars, but they will end. Social programs never end. They only grow, get more expensive, and harm future generations more than they help current ones.

Nail on the head here.

The difference between the dollar cost of Afghanistan/Iraq and all of our healthcare/social obligations is 1-2 orders of magnitude. Killing people and breaking things overseas won't bankrupt this nation - giving more and more free stuff to citizens who contribute less and less will.