When is Obama going to stop campaigning?

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Yes, ignore the trillions we've spent on securing private bank debt via the Federal Reserve, ignore the entirety of TARP, ignore the FDIC running out of money due to not collecting fees for a decade, ignore the Iraq and Afghanistan wars that have been little more than $1b a day thrown into incinerators, ignore the tens of billions we've given to private contractors, ignore the trillions in tax cuts we gave to the wealthiest Americans.

Our budget deficit and high national debt are the fault of complaining poor people. You are either a loon or a troll, not sure which at this point.

Meister,

This non-sequitir, stream-of-consciousness, irrelevant rant that has nothing to do with what I posted, ended with a charge that I'm simply "trolling", belies someone who is completely emotionally and irrationally lost in his/her own argument.

Our budget and high deficit have nothing to do with complaining poor people, yes. That is a stupid assertion, and one I never made. I think it is ridiculous the amount of money we've wasted on TARP and the conflicts in the Middle East. But, one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

What I said (read it again) is that we don't really have poverty in this country as long as we don't have people starving in the streets. In fact, I would argue that BMI is inversely correlated with socioeconomic status, a feature occurring only in developed western countries and otherwise unique in the entire world.

We feed and coddle our "poor", to the point of obesity, and thus become enablers of them remaining in the lowest socioeconomic strata. That's their problem. That's our problem, too.

It has nothing to do with ridiculous, wasteful spending in other areas by big government - a practice that should also stop.

Take a breath. Try to be a little more logical and a little less emotional. And, try to learn something from people who, perhaps, have a little more real-world experience and knowledge than you.

:)

-copro

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"Honestly, it feels like Republicans are just tired of being on the defensive for 8 years..."

What do you mean by this?

Defending President Bush's policies.

Also, there's no point in arguing how much money people need to make to be satisfied with, clearly it's going to vary from person to person. Some people won't be happy no matter how much they're making, some people are happy no matter how much they're making, and most people would be happy if they make enough to not be in debt, have a house, can raise their kids, and have some extra for vacations and various frivolities. End of story.

As for the poor, I don't think they need coddling, but they also don't necessarily need tough love. If there were an easy solution to end poverty, someone probably would have come up with it by now.
 
Defending President Bush's policies.

Also, there's no point in arguing how much money people need to make to be satisfied with, clearly it's going to vary from person to person. Some people won't be happy no matter how much they're making, some people are happy no matter how much they're making, and most people would be happy if they make enough to not be in debt, have a house, can raise their kids, and have some extra for vacations and various frivolities. End of story.


As for the poor, I don't think they need coddling, but they also don't necessarily need tough love. If there were an easy solution to end poverty, someone probably would have come up with it by now.

Yes, they do.

If they were actually poor, and likewise hungry, maybe they'd be more motivated to get off of their fat asses and go find a job (like the rest of the poor people in the world who come to this country, full of opportunity) instead of laying around getting fatter, doing nothing other than f**king, and making more poor people I have to support.

-copro
 
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Yes, they do.

If they were actually poor, and likewise hungry, maybe they'd be more motivated to get off of their fat asses and go find a job (like the rest of the poor people in the world who come to this country, full of opportunity) instead of laying around getting fatter, doing nothing other than f**king, and making more poor people I have to support.

-copro

I won't disagree with you, a little misery goes a long way towards motivating people, but I'd have to say it'd be a tough sell to convince most people that what we need to do is take food away from people so they become truly poor like in other places across the globe.

Otherwise, I seem to be getting into a similar argument in two different threads, so I'll abandon this one for that one.
 
This non-sequitir, stream-of-consciousness, irrelevant rant that has nothing to do with what I posted, ended with a charge that I'm simply "trolling", belies someone who is completely emotionally and irrationally lost in his/her own argument.
You're the one who seems obsessed with the budget deficit and national debt and you seem totally unwilling to admit any GOP complicity in our current predicament. Instead your pet issue seems to be trying to convince others we should cut aid to the poor. I'm simply pointing out that your priorities are irretrievably f*cked, and until you really look in the mirror and see exactly how much the GOP does not stand for what you think it does we can't really have an honest discussion.

That being said, the democrats and Obama are corporate sellouts and this entire debate is ******ed. The bill is going to be a massive windfall to private insurance companies. Personal mandate + federal subsidies = massive wealth transfer ONCE AGAIN to the private sector instead of dealing with these issues honestly and realizing heavily government regulated healthcare is cheaper everywhere else in the western world. The only people who don't admit this are ideologues who live in Rand fantasy land and can't deal with the reality that government is sometimes the answer. (Or are just being contrarian because they don't like democrats or don't like having a black president.)
 
You're the one who seems obsessed with the budget deficit and national debt and you seem totally unwilling to admit any GOP complicity in our current predicament. Instead your pet issue seems to be trying to convince others we should cut aid to the poor. I'm simply pointing out that your priorities are irretrievably f*cked, and until you really look in the mirror and see exactly how much the GOP does not stand for what you think it does we can't really have an honest discussion.

That being said, the democrats and Obama are corporate sellouts and this entire debate is ******ed. The bill is going to be a massive windfall to private insurance companies. Personal mandate + federal subsidies = massive wealth transfer ONCE AGAIN to the private sector instead of dealing with these issues honestly and realizing heavily government regulated healthcare is cheaper everywhere else in the western world. The only people who don't admit this are ideologues who live in Rand fantasy land and can't deal with the reality that government is sometimes the answer. (Or are just being contrarian because they don't like democrats or don't like having a black president.)
I do feel like I live in Rand fantasy land some times, unfortunately, it's not the hidden valley I'm living in.
 
You're the one who seems obsessed with the budget deficit and national debt and you seem totally unwilling to admit any GOP complicity in our current predicament. Instead your pet issue seems to be trying to convince others we should cut aid to the poor. I'm simply pointing out that your priorities are irretrievably f*cked, and until you really look in the mirror and see exactly how much the GOP does not stand for what you think it does we can't really have an honest discussion.

That being said, the democrats and Obama are corporate sellouts and this entire debate is ******ed. The bill is going to be a massive windfall to private insurance companies. Personal mandate + federal subsidies = massive wealth transfer ONCE AGAIN to the private sector instead of dealing with these issues honestly and realizing heavily government regulated healthcare is cheaper everywhere else in the western world. The only people who don't admit this are ideologues who live in Rand fantasy land and
can't deal with the reality that government is sometimes the answer. (Or are just being contrarian because they don't like democrats or don't like having a black president.)

MORE government is NEVER the answer.

(And, I'll just simply ignore your sophomoric attempt to play the race card, which is really what I think is behind your cute, idealistic, and unrealistic notions.)

-copro
 
(Or are just being contrarian because they don't like democrats or don't like having a black president.)

Will all the black people in the room who didn't vote for Obama and don't agree with his policies please raise your hands? <Raising my hand>

Seriously? Is that necessary? I don't think Copro ever made any racist comments in this discussion or insinuated anything racist. I will inject a little race for you... as a black man, I'm insulted every time someone jumps up and says, "You don't like Obama cause he's black." So what do you say to some of us black folk who don't like him?
 
Will all the black people in the room who didn't vote for Obama and don't agree with his policies please raise your hands? <Raising my hand>

Seriously? Is that necessary? I don't think Copro ever made any racist comments in this discussion or insinuated anything racist. I will inject a little race for you... as a black man, I'm insulted every time someone jumps up and says, "You don't like Obama cause he's black." So what do you say to some of us black folk who don't like him?

Nevermind that Michael Steele is the chairman of the RNC. I never knew repubs were so racist...:rolleyes:
 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcqOgnQyXp4[/YOUTUBE]

Okay, who's responsible for this? Stole his grandma's SUV...

How can the government do anything "more" to help this kid, already away from his mother and living with an apparently absentee grandmother and at incredibly high risk, who already shows - at age 7 - no remorse for what he's done?

"I wanna do it because it's fun. It's fun to do bad things."

How is more government going to help this problem?

-copro
 
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[WARNING: This video contains some explicit language. For those of you who are easily offended, you have been notified.]


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pirfXGx8oLc&NR=1[/YOUTUBE]

This guy nailed it (despite the fact that he's kind of a doofus). I like his commentary about Brittney Spears types, which have sadly become our society's role models, and the misplaced priorities of absentee parents.

How does more government help this problem?

(And, you can stop watching at 3:00 minutes, as the rest of the video is an advertisement.)

-copro
 
How can the government do anything "more" to help this kid, already away from his mother and living with an apparently absentee grandmother and at incredibly high risk, who already shows - at age 7 - no remorse for what he's done?
You're right, the seven year old is clearly lost forever. You have no responsibility for anyone else in the world. You are an autonomous ubermensch of a superior mold.

This guy nailed it (despite the fact that he's kind of a doofus). I like his commentary about Brittney Spears types, which have sadly become our society's role models, and the misplaced priorities of absentee parents.

How does more government help this problem?
Clearly we should make sex illegal for anyone without a job or without a rich daddy. Oh wait, you want less government? Uhhh, I guess just make sure that everyone knows that if they accidentally get pregnant we will not provide abortion services, we will not provide healthcare for anyone, and we will not take any responsibility for their spawn at all. When everyone understands that there is zero safety net at all they will immediately become responsible and no one will ever do anything wrong or make mistakes.

Were you born in 17th century colonial America or what? Can't believe I'm seeing someone argue that a seven year old is beyond hope and posting youtube videos of young parents to put forth the argument that government is always the problem. A physician no less. What the hell?
 
I do feel like I live in Rand fantasy land some times, unfortunately, it's not the hidden valley I'm living in.

We are definitely living in the land that Rand described. All of the good and decent people are disappearing and all that is left are the ones looking for handouts with crooked, greedy big government there to provide it by taking over all businesses and killing capitalism. The producers of the country are getting frustrated and are tired of carrying the weight of the deadbeats. Yep, exactly as Rand described it. Not sure that Meister got the intended result from his Rand comment. Maybe they should read the book.
 
Clearly we should make sex illegal for anyone without a job or without a rich daddy.

Seriously, dude. If you continue to expect me to engage you, don't be stupid.

At some time in the not-too-distant past in this country, there was the concept of social embarrassment. If you got pregnant out of wedlock, it was a tremendous burden to your family, friends, and the social opprobrium - right or wrong - that followed was enough of a deterrent that many young girls, who fooled around and got caught with a "bun in the oven", went off to camps to have their babies, which were often subsequently put up for adoption to loving, wanting families.

Was this right? I don't know.

What I do know is that we now live in a completely permissive culture that puts personal, individual choice and freedom of expression - not responsibility - above all else. We have Serena Williams swearing at a tennis official. We have Kanye West taking a microphone out of a 20-year-old's hands to profess his disdain about whom HE felt should've won an award. We have a whole host of loud-mouthed televangelical pundits spouting all kinds of opinion 24-7-365... and this is compounded by the Internet.

We reward people for being selfish, snotty, and controversial - and impressionable people emulate this.

And, when did this get extended to our children? These are kids that feel that they should have and share these same "rights" as adults, and there is no real parenting going on anymore.

So, again I ask you, why should government reward these people by paying them - expanding social programs beyond the too numerous to already count ones that already exist? Why should I care?

I had no say in the raising of this child - to the tender age of 7 - yet I'm supposed to take financial responsibility for him, likely for the rest of his life?

You know what you start doing, you make these parents pay for everything these kids damaged or destroyed, or you throw them in jail! Period. Then, since they've proven they're irresponsible parents, you take these kids away and put them in reform school - and those same parents have to pay for that schooling.

This is essentially how they did it in the past, and I think they were on to something. Carrot and stick. What we have now is a society that is all carrot.

-copro
 
Unfortunately Copro my friend, there comes a point where you just gotta save your breath. Some people just aren't worth it and will never get it.:(
 
You're right, the seven year old is clearly lost forever. You have no responsibility for anyone else in the world. You are an autonomous ubermensch of a superior mold.

Clearly we should make sex illegal for anyone without a job or without a rich daddy. Oh wait, you want less government? Uhhh, I guess just make sure that everyone knows that if they accidentally get pregnant we will not provide abortion services, we will not provide healthcare for anyone, and we will not take any responsibility for their spawn at all. When everyone understands that there is zero safety net at all they will immediately become responsible and no one will ever do anything wrong or make mistakes.

Were you born in 17th century colonial America or what? Can't believe I'm seeing someone argue that a seven year old is beyond hope and posting youtube videos of young parents to put forth the argument that government is always the problem. A physician no less. What the hell?


You finally got it?
Unbelievable :laugh:
 
Seriously, dude. If you continue to expect me to engage you, don't be stupid.

At some time in the not-too-distant past in this country, there was the concept of social embarrassment. If you got pregnant out of wedlock, it was a tremendous burden to your family, friends, and the social opprobrium - right or wrong - that followed was enough of a deterrent that many young girls, who fooled around and got caught with a "bun in the oven", went off to camps to have their babies, which were often subsequently put up for adoption to loving, wanting families.

Was this right? I don't know.

What I do know is that we now live in a completely permissive culture that puts personal, individual choice and freedom of expression - not responsibility - above all else. We have Serena Williams swearing at a tennis official. We have Kanye West taking a microphone out of a 20-year-old's hands to profess his disdain about whom HE felt should've won an award. We have a whole host of loud-mouthed televangelical pundits spouting all kinds of opinion 24-7-365... and this is compounded by the Internet.

We reward people for being selfish, snotty, and controversial - and impressionable people emulate this.

And, when did this get extended to our children? These are kids that feel that they should have and share these same "rights" as adults, and there is no real parenting going on anymore.

So, again I ask you, why should government reward these people by paying them - expanding social programs beyond the too numerous to already count ones that already exist? Why should I care?

I had no say in the raising of this child - to the tender age of 7 - yet I'm supposed to take financial responsibility for him, likely for the rest of his life?

You know what you start doing, you make these parents pay for everything these kids damaged or destroyed, or you throw them in jail! Period. Then, since they've proven they're irresponsible parents, you take these kids away and put them in reform school - and those same parents have to pay for that schooling.

This is essentially how they did it in the past, and I think they were on to something. Carrot and stick. What we have now is a society that is all carrot.

-copro

props
 
Anybody jumping on the freeloader government gravy train gets implantable/injectable birth control. Your right to mass produce kids infringes on society's rights to not have to support your kids. Have all the kids you want, but either your handouts or your fallopian tubes get cut off. It's America. You have freedom of choice. Take your pick which one.
 
What I do know is that we now live in a completely permissive culture that puts personal, individual choice and freedom of expression - not responsibility - above all else. We have Serena Williams swearing at a tennis official. We have Kanye West taking a microphone out of a 20-year-old's hands to profess his disdain about whom HE felt should've won an award.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I had no say in the raising of this child - to the tender age of 7 - yet I'm supposed to take financial responsibility for him, likely for the rest of his life?
Again, you are an autonomous ubermensch of a superior mold. You could have fended for yourself at 7 years old. These lesser beings deserve the starvation and illiteracy that come with poverty. Just say that already, you hate the poor and feel zero responsibility for them. You want to live in a feudal state with landlords and servants and all that jazz. Come on man just tell the truth, you can barely hide your disdain.

You know what you start doing, you make these parents pay for everything these kids damaged or destroyed, or you throw them in jail! Period. Then, since they've proven they're irresponsible parents, you take these kids away and put them in reform school - and those same parents have to pay for that schooling.
You are a bigoted misanthrope.

This is essentially how they did it in the past, and I think they were on to something.
It's amazing how quickly the past is forgotten.
 
You finally got it?
Unbelievable :laugh:
:laugh: Yeah man forced sterilization and kids dying in the street and private schools only with 20%+ illiteracy :laugh:

How many of you poor poor rich guys voted for George W. Bush, just by a show of hands. That's what I thought.
 
Again, you are an autonomous ubermensch of a superior mold. You could have fended for yourself at 7 years old. These lesser beings deserve the starvation and illiteracy that come with poverty. Just say that already, you hate the poor and feel zero responsibility for them. You want to live in a feudal state with landlords and servants and all that jazz. Come on man just tell the truth, you can barely hide your disdain.

Ah, here it is, the expected descent into childish namecalling and strawmen. The last refuge.


This entire debate really boils down to two basic differing opinions. You seem to think that all human beings deserve and are entitled to food, shelter, clothing, and medical care. Lots of people feel that way; I disagree, but I don't think they're stupid untermensch.

I don't want to speak for Copro, but personally I believe that the only thing anyone is entitled to is a fair opportunity to work for food, shelter, clothing, and medical care.

And if you don't work, golly gee, too bad, you're going to find yourself hungry, homeless, naked, and/or not getting that bilateral TKA. If you have children it is your responsibility to care for them. I don't hate the poor, but you are partially correct - I do feel zero responsibility for them. I don't exploit them or keep them down. I don't shoot them for sport or work their children 16 hours/day in a factory. I already pay their share of taxes and the government I fund supports them in their (longer, and longer, and longer, and sometimes perpetual) times of need.

This is not to say there should be NO social support, unemployment benefits, social security, or welfare system. Anyone who's ever worked, even for a minute, has paid taxes to support such benefits should they ever have to endure a period of injury or unemployment. These benefits are not handouts.

I do feel a moral obligation to serve other people and my country - these were driving motivations behind going into medicine and why I'm in the military. It wasn't all chicks, money, power, and chicks. But that basic human duty has limits.

If you ever travel outside the 1st world, and see what real poverty is in countries where actual starvation, shantytown living, daily violence, and a thoroughly corrupt government actively oppresses and discriminates against various social & ethnic groups ... you may also find it very, very difficult to muster much sympathy for "poor" people in the United States. I've seen 10-year-old kids with shovels doing road work 10 feet from marked minefields in Afghanistan, and toddlers dragging around buckets of garbage in South American marketplaces. Life isn't fair. The poor kid growing up with loser parents is no more tragic than the 34-year-old rich woman with breast cancer, the 16-year-old who flips his car and winds up a quadriplegic, or the good peace-loving Muslim who was sweeping the floor at the Shiite mosque when the Sunnis blew it up.

Once you simply accept that a certain, small percentage of any human population will just waste their lives no matter what anybody does, you'll be less stressed about it. You can't save people from themselves, meister, and neither can the government.

Enablers are well meaning, good people who don't mean to harm the dysfunctional people they're enabling. You're not a bad person to care about poor people. You're just not helping them the way you think you are.
 
Anybody jumping on the freeloader government gravy train gets implantable/injectable birth control.

We don't need to assault people. We just need to stop giving them money.

It's the difference between taking something from people (in this case their right to reproduce), and not giving them something.
 
You seem to think that all human beings deserve and are entitled to food, shelter, clothing, and medical care. Lots of people feel that way; I disagree.
Nice. I think this quote speaks for itself. How does a person think such things, I wonder.

If you ever travel outside the 1st world, and see what real poverty is in countries where actual starvation, shantytown living, daily violence, and a thoroughly corrupt government actively oppresses and discriminates against various social & ethnic groups ... you may also find it very, very difficult to muster much sympathy for "poor" people in the United States.
So, the west gets to exploit tens of millions of people over hundreds of years to get "advanced" and wealthy, and then gets to use the result to mitigate any semblance of social justice. Do you think that the world is the way it is by random chance?

I mean what kind of people are you blathering on about? Wasting their life? Not working and thus deserving of poverty and death and illiteracy? Do you think everyone is born with the abundance of opportunity that 90% of SDN posters were born with? Do you really think that our biggest problem as a society is that some people sit at home all day and take your tax dollars? Do you recognize at all that we spend money on much worse and terrible things than food stamps or Medicaid or Medicare?
 
If you ever travel outside the 1st world, and see what real poverty is in countries where actual starvation, shantytown living, daily violence, and a thoroughly corrupt government actively oppresses and discriminates against various social & ethnic groups ... you may also find it very, very difficult to muster much sympathy for "poor" people in the United States.

Truth.
 
On the one hand we have the top 0.1% of the US having more wealth than they've had since 1928, and we have the top 1% taking 2/3s of the income increases in the past ten years. Oh also the top 10% own at least 50% of all wealth.

On the other hand we have the highest unemployment in at least 20 years, we have lower median income now than we did ten years ago, we have more children in poverty than we did ten years ago, and 1 in 5 children is living under the poverty line. And insurance premiums have doubled.

And you're trying to distract me by pointing out people live in squalor in countries that were raped by imperialist Europe less than 100 years ago? Why not look in your own backyard, why not notice the extreme accumulation of wealth we have in the good ol' US of A.

Oh, right, that top 0.1% really deserve all that money and property. They earned it. They certainly weren't born into it! Don't notice that we just eliminated the inheritance tax and cut taxes for the wealthy. Notice that poor people get food stamps!

:laugh:
 
On the one hand we have the top 0.1% of the US having more wealth than they've had since 1928, and we have the top 1% taking 2/3s of the income increases in the past ten years. Oh also the top 10% own at least 50% of all wealth.

On the other hand we have the highest unemployment in at least 20 years, we have lower median income now than we did ten years ago, we have more children in poverty than we did ten years ago, and 1 in 5 children is living under the poverty line. And insurance premiums have doubled.

And you're trying to distract me by pointing out people live in squalor in countries that were raped by imperialist Europe less than 100 years ago? Why not look in your own backyard, why not notice the extreme accumulation of wealth we have in the good ol' US of A.

Oh, right, that top 0.1% really deserve all that money and property. They earned it. They certainly weren't born into it! Don't notice that we just eliminated the inheritance tax and cut taxes for the wealthy. Notice that poor people get food stamps!

:laugh:

Is paying the poor to have children going to decreaase the percentage of children in poverty, or is it the reason such a large percentage of children live in poverty? -along with unwed parents obviously.

Are you suggesting that most of the people did not live in squalor before they had contact with Europeans and that evil whitey is to blame as usual? I was un-aware of the great cities of sub-saharan Africa for example, or of their great literary works, or of their scientific, engineering, public heath, sanitation, and farming advances. You seem to want to blame Europeans for destroying a society that never existed. They didn't even have a written language for the most part. I'm not saying that using primitive people for your own advancement isn't bad, but lets not pretend that civilizations were driven into squalor when really there were mostly primitive tribes living in squalor in the first place.

Money taken by an inheritance tax has already been subject to excessive taxation. Taxing everyone until a communist-utopian-equality is reached would be nice if it worked, but in reality handouts lead to laziness, dependence, and stagnation.
 
meister said:
pgg said:
You seem to think that all human beings deserve and are entitled to food, shelter, clothing, and medical care. Lots of people feel that way; I disagree.
Nice. I think this quote speaks for itself. How does a person think such things, I wonder.

Our Founders' promise of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness does not imply a government responsibility to provide housing, clothing, food, or money to anyone.

Why do you feel entitled to receive food, shelter, clothing, or medical care at my expense?


And you're trying to distract me by pointing out people live in squalor in countries that were raped by imperialist Europe less than 100 years ago?

meister said:
So, the west gets to exploit tens of millions of people over hundreds of years to get "advanced" and wealthy, and then gets to use the result to mitigate any semblance of social justice. Do you think that the world is the way it is by random chance?

Oh, so you feel guilty, and want to make amends to the presumed descendents of people your ancestors may or may not have wronged. I see.
 
Meister,

I think pgg already summed it up nicely before...

Med students who don't care how much they'll earn are like primips who don't think they'll want epidurals.

In both cases, screaming and mind-changing are coming ...

You have been heard. You have your own point, and there are probably only very few of us agree here that with it. So, you just need to drop it now. You are going off the deep end. Check yourself before you wreck yourself... or, if you want to truly live in a non-pluralist society where everyone is considered equal, move to North Korea. Please.

-copro
 
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I grew up "poor"... at least by American standards. My mom barely got out of high school and came south to Louisiana with a newborn son at the age of 17. My dad started work as a maintenance man at a paper mill. By the time my mom was 20, she had me; and a few years later, they had my little brother. They never accepted food stamps or any government programs (they were too proud). My mom worked at a hamburger place for several years, but at some point said she had to do better for us. So she went to school to be a nurse. She never accepted hand outs. Her education was paid for by my dad. So she became an LPN and then an RN (which she is to this day... working Labor and Delivery). My parents always told us that when you accept handouts, you have to play by their rules. They told us, life sucks sometimes, but you suck it up and get to work. By the time I was in high school, my parents' work had paid off. We had a little money. We were able to travel. I got to do mission trips to Guyana and Honduras. I got to see real life. Real life is work. And sometimes work sucks... but in the end, you've got to do it. If you are unable to, I will help as much as I can. If you simply don't want to, you're on your own. This isn't an old, fat white guy yelling about how poor people are the problem. This is a young black man who has worked all his life. I appreciate work. I'm not going to tell you that every story works out like this. I know better. But at the same time, I KNOW there are many out there who just wait on the system. I can't tell you how many times I heard growing up from members of my extended family, "You're a fool to do all that work. The government should take care of you." "You can go to college all you want, bookworm, but I know that I get a check for $203 every few weeks from social security, and that's enough for me." "Why go through all that, when all you have to do is go down to the courthouse and apply for stamps. Hell, now they have it in credit card form so no one knows you're on them." There was a system back in the day that the US government had. It provided a home, meals, a job, and even limited healthcare. It didn't provide an education, but at least you had all those other things for your entire life. You had to follow certain rules, but who cared... they got all that free stuff. That program was called slavery. With each new social program and entitlement we add, it begins to look more and more like slavery.
I don't know what your background is, and honestly, it doesn't matter. I've made it my life's work to deal with at-risk youth (and yes, mostly black at-risk... but I help whoever is placed in front of me). They need people to push them... not coddle them. They need to be told the truth about life, and DEAL with it. This ain't Disney. Liberal Whitey talks a good game and may even throw some money at these kids, but in the end, most of them don't really want to get their hands dirty and do the real work that's required. A $1000 check to the United Negro College Fund goes a long way to clear their minds. And then they turn around and say, "I supported you, now you must support my cause." These programs aren't designed to eliminate poverty. That's counterproductive to the politicians needs. If the politicians eliminated poverty and actually educated the people, then they would have no power base. Once people think for themselves, they are much harder to control. Once people educate themselves, work there butts off, and prosper; they don't want to turn around and give it to people who don't want to work. They've been there and they know that personality. The politicians know this, which is why the entitlement system is fixed. Tell me honestly, how many people do you know who work their way off of welfare... I guess I first need to ask how many people do you actually know on welfare. From my experience, it's 80-20 against working off of welfare. You don't think the politicians know that? You can control those people on welfare cause they have to obey your rules now to get that entitlement... slavery.
I'm gonna quit preaching. Yes, my OPINION is skewed by my EXPERIENCE. But at least it's actual ground-level experience. I'm not giving you anyone's talking points, but my own. I'm neither a republican nor a democrat... as both parties disgust me. There are individuals in each who are great people, for sure. But in general, politicians are untrustworthy. Meister, the poor are not all victims... and those who are victims just might be the victim of what the system does to correct "the problem"... not necessarily the system itself.
 
Alex, I want people to read your post, because it is excellent. But, it's very hard to read without paragraph breaks, so I'm taking the liberty of editing it for you. I hope you don't mind.


=============================
Originally Posted by LSU Alex

I grew up "poor"... at least by American standards.

My mom barely got out of high school and came south to Louisiana with a newborn son at the age of 17. My dad started work as a maintenance man at a paper mill. By the time my mom was 20, she had me; and a few years later, they had my little brother.

They never accepted food stamps or any government programs (they were too proud). My mom worked at a hamburger place for several years, but at some point said she had to do better for us. So she went to school to be a nurse. She never accepted hand outs. Her education was paid for by my dad. So she became an LPN and then an RN (which she is to this day... working Labor and Delivery).

My parents always told us that when you accept handouts, you have to play by their rules. They told us, life sucks sometimes, but you suck it up and get to work.

By the time I was in high school, my parents' work had paid off. We had a little money. We were able to travel. I got to do mission trips to Guyana and Honduras. I got to see real life. Real life is work. And sometimes work sucks... but in the end, you've got to do it. If you are unable to, I will help as much as I can. If you simply don't want to, you're on your own.

This isn't an old, fat white guy yelling about how poor people are the problem. This is a young black man who has worked all his life. I appreciate work. I'm not going to tell you that every story works out like this. I know better. But at the same time, I KNOW there are many out there who just wait on the system.

I can't tell you how many times I heard growing up from members of my extended family, "You're a fool to do all that work. The government should take care of you." "You can go to college all you want, bookworm, but I know that I get a check for $203 every few weeks from social security, and that's enough for me." "Why go through all that, when all you have to do is go down to the courthouse and apply for stamps. Hell, now they have it in credit card form so no one knows you're on them."

There was a system back in the day that the US government had. It provided a home, meals, a job, and even limited healthcare. It didn't provide an education, but at least you had all those other things for your entire life. You had to follow certain rules, but who cared... they got all that free stuff.

That program was called slavery.

With each new social program and entitlement we add, it begins to look more and more like slavery.

I don't know what your background is, and honestly, it doesn't matter. I've made it my life's work to deal with at-risk youth (and yes, mostly black at-risk... but I help whoever is placed in front of me). They need people to push them... not coddle them. They need to be told the truth about life, and DEAL with it. This ain't Disney.

Liberal Whitey talks a good game and may even throw some money at these kids, but in the end, most of them don't really want to get their hands dirty and do the real work that's required. A $1000 check to the United Negro College Fund goes a long way to clear their minds. And then they turn around and say, "I supported you, now you must support my cause."

These programs aren't designed to eliminate poverty. That's counterproductive to the politicians needs. If the politicians eliminated poverty and actually educated the people, then they would have no power base. Once people think for themselves, they are much harder to control. Once people educate themselves, work there butts off, and prosper; they don't want to turn around and give it to people who don't want to work. They've been there and they know that personality. The politicians know this, which is why the entitlement system is fixed.

Tell me honestly, how many people do you know who work their way off of welfare... I guess I first need to ask how many people do you actually know on welfare. From my experience, it's 80-20 against working off of welfare. You don't think the politicians know that? You can control those people on welfare cause they have to obey your rules now to get that entitlement... slavery.

I'm gonna quit preaching. Yes, my OPINION is skewed by my EXPERIENCE. But at least it's actual ground-level experience. I'm not giving you anyone's talking points, but my own. I'm neither a republican nor a democrat... as both parties disgust me. There are individuals in each who are great people, for sure. But in general, politicians are untrustworthy.

Meister, the poor are not all victims... and those who are victims just might be the victim of what the system does to correct "the problem"... not necessarily the system itself.

=====================================
 
I don't mind the edit. Sometimes I just get lost in typing. Maybe one day I'll learn a little better grammar and a little spell checking too... :p
 
I don't mind the edit. Sometimes I just get lost in typing. Maybe one day I'll learn a little better grammar and a little spell checking too... :p

It is an excellent post, and I want to be sure people to read it (especially in light of Jimmy Carter's recent comments...).

I agree with your sentiments, obviously coming from a different background and perspective, but I think they speak to the fact that self-esteem, true self-esteem, comes from being a productive member of society, of having something meaningful to do, and having the pride of accomplishment, however small that accomplishment may be in the eyes of others.

We have enabled and empowered, and in many ways perpetuated, the welfare culture in this country. It's not even a black/white thing. The majority of "poor" people who "milk" the system are Caucasian.

That's why I take extreme umbrage at meister's paternalistic comments. The fact is, and as pgg has already pointed out, there already exists a plethora of social programs out there that, as you state it, enslave people and perpetuate the poverty culture. When I was young and stupid, I used to think like meister - that handouts were help.

Then, I finally understood the "Give a man a fish, teach a man to fish" homily. I finally realized that my good intentions were actually serving the opposite purpose.

I applaud you and your commitment to excellence and rising above your station in life. I'm glad you had good parents, and that you are giving back. The world needs more people like you, and less people like meister who, however well-intentioned, are often sanctimonious and misguided in their offers of "sanitized" help... government programs that force the underprivileged more closely to the teet instead of weaning them for their freedom.

I gotta think, on many different levels, that you're right: you make people dependent, and then you can control them.

-copro, the Whitey
 
It is an excellent post, and I want to be sure people to read it (especially in light of Jimmy Carter's recent comments...).

I agree with your sentiments, obviously coming from a different background and perspective, but I think they speak to the fact that self-esteem, true self-esteem, comes from being a productive member of society, of having something meaningful to do, and having the pride of accomplishment, however small that accomplishment may be in the eyes of others.

We have enabled and empowered, and in many ways perpetuated, the welfare culture in this country. It's not even a black/white thing. The majority of "poor" people who "milk" the system are Caucasian.

That's why I take extreme umbrage at meister's paternalistic comments. The fact is, and as pgg has already pointed out, there already exists a plethora of social programs out there that, as you state it, enslave people and perpetuate the poverty culture. When I was young and stupid, I used to think like meister - that handouts were help.

Then, I finally understood the "Give a man a fish, teach a man to fish" homily. I finally realized that my good intentions were actually serving the opposite purpose.

I applaud you and your commitment to excellence and rising above your station in life. I'm glad you had good parents, and that you are giving back. The world needs more people like you, and less people like meister who, however well-intentioned, are often sanctimonious and misguided in their offers of "sanitized" help... government programs that force the underprivileged more closely to the teet instead of weaning them for their freedom.

I gotta think, on many different levels, that you're right: you make people dependent, and then you can control them.

-copro, the Whitey

Well I appreciate you saying so. And I know you are playing with your signature there, but I still feel I should say that I don't mean to denigrate any race here. I shouldn't have used "Whitey", and I do apologize for that. Keep preaching sense, my friend.
 
:laugh: Yeah man forced sterilization and kids dying in the street and private schools only with 20%+ illiteracy :laugh:

How many of you poor poor rich guys voted for George W. Bush, just by a show of hands. That's what I thought.

not a bad idea :laugh:

poor soul, still remembering mommy scaring you by W? Couldn't fell asleep, heh?
 
Well I appreciate you saying so. And I know you are playing with your signature there, but I still feel I should say that I don't mean to denigrate any race here. I shouldn't have used "Whitey", and I do apologize for that. Keep preaching sense, my friend.

:laugh:

No offense was taken, my friend. I've got a very thick skin, and I'm not easily offended. And, I know exactly what you're talking about.

-copro (a.k.a., "cracker" or "honkie" or "the man")

P.S. I will walk a million miles to help people who are willing to help themselves, or are seriously and legitimately down on their luck and/or looking for a way out of a dilemma, unforced or not caused by themselves, while admitting their humility and earnest desire to do better. I just don't have time for the people thinking I - me, personally - owe them a handout.

I, too, come from a modest background (dare I say "poor" when I was a little kid), having my father being the first kid in his entire extended family who went to college. I was lucky, yes, that I was born into a family that had loving, ever-present parents, who possesed a strong work ethic and serious interest in having children that they would love and raise properly. My parents were there. They made mistakes, but wanted to be parents.

Is that luck? I don't know. But, what I see now is kids having kids because they can't practice effective birth control or, worse, because they'll get a handout from Uncle Sam. They are not interested in being parents. They are interested in f*cking and having someone else pay for the consequences of those actions.

And, now we want to give them healthcare? When does the giving of this country stop? When does the responsibility start?

Have a kid, out of wedlock, when you're unmarried, and under the age of consent in that State and make the parents unwilling to take repsonsibility, both financially and/or otherwise, of that child suffer the consequences. You find that girl's parents and you lock them up. The message would get out quick. Girls who love their parents would be more careful, and parents who love their girls who made a mistake would pay for that child (as many now do). That's the only way you solve that problem. You don't give more handouts. We already have enough effing handouts!
 
A couple of thoughts I've had on the topic since my last post, the first childhood developmentally-related, and the second health care-related:

1) This is a little unsettling: http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/16/spanking.children.parenting/index.html?iref=mpstoryview. I understand there's a fine line between spanking and child abuse, but I think it's also ridiculous to think you can logically reason with a 2-3 year old kid. I've seen far too many kids getting away with **** that I wouldn't have dreamed of doing when I was a kid, and I think it hurts them later in life. Too many kids grow up thinking it's all about them, and the reality is, it's not. This is especially pertinent to my earlier arguments that it's not the kids that are guilty, it's their ruination by bad or absent parents. Which leads me to my next point...

2) The American attitude towards individuality and "cost is no matter" mentality is part of what makes health care such a ridiculous percentage of our country's GDP. We had a patient in clinic break down (understandably) after learning she had metastatic cancer, partly because she was afraid of the effects of the chemo, but also that she couldn't afford the cost. The attending wasn't paternalistic about it, she just recommended she go to the oncologist and hear her out before making a decision. What bothered me about it was her saying, "don't let the money be a factor in your decision, we can figure that part out later."

I understand that as a doctor, advocating for the health of your patient is your primary responsibility. But how much good are you doing your patient if you then bankrupt their family in the process? It's a zero sum game. Providing for someone takes something away from someone else. I feel like in many parts of the world, people realize this and make decisions based on what's best for their family or community, even when occasionally that might mean not maximizing treatment for an individual. But if you even considered suggesting that in medical school, you'd be roasted alive. And I go to a public school that's heavy on EBM and public health issues.

This is where I agree with copro and pgg, even where I disagree elsewhere. Health care is a limited resource. Not everybody can have unlimited access to it. Life doesn't work that way. I think there should be basic universal health care covering preventative services, but that's only because it's most cost-effective for us as a population. Humans don't live in a vacuum. At some point we have to think about the big picture and not what's going to keep me personally alive the longest.
 
I've seen 10-year-old kids with shovels doing road work 10 feet from marked minefields in Afghanistan,

And lest ye think this is exaggerated hyperbole, here he is:

childlabor1.jpg
childlabor2.jpg


The white rocks are minefield markers. It was about 110 degrees that day. I show my kids these pictures every time they gripe about doing the dishes or scooping up their dogs' poo.
 
Do you recognize at all that we spend money on much worse and terrible things than food stamps or Medicaid or Medicare?

I had a Medicaid patient today with fake tits and a full set of porcelin veneers. Something is wrong with that.
 
speaking of ego and self-importance. *cough cough* ;)


sorry cop, couldn't help myself with that set-up

Hey, I've never claimed to be anything other than what I am. And, I may be egotistical and self-important, but I'm not stupid. That's the difference. That, and the fact that I'm usually right.

-copro
 
Hey, I've never claimed to be anything other than what I am. And, I may be egotistical and self-important, but I'm not stupid. That's the difference. That, and the fact that I'm usually right.

-copro

That, and if anyone tries to "Pimp the System" with me, they're going to get a whole lot of .40 S&W in their faces.

It's funny how they run and scream like little babies when you're prepared to fight back. :laugh:

-copro
 
It's pretty safe to conclude that meister is one of the more annoying individuals on the forum. It's also a fairly safe bet that, if anyone ever ties what he/she/it says in real life to what is espoused on here, and a connection is made between the two, horrific, career killing evaluations are inevitable.
 
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