Where is the chiropractor

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Fact: If you have a degree with the letter "D" in it, you're a "doctor".

Any other definition of "doctor" is incorrect, no exceptions.


Fact: according to dictionary.com, you're wrong:

Doctor. noun:
1. a person licensed to practice medicine, as a physician, surgeon, dentist, or veterinarian.
2. a person who has been awarded a doctor's degree: He is a Doctor of Philosophy.

So, by the first definition, people can use "doctor" to refer specifically to a medical doctor. This is a point of practical usage. When people say "I'm looking for a doctor", it's pretty clear that they mean doctor by this first definition. Saying things like "I am a doctor" when I have a PhD may be technically true in the sense that I have a doctoral degree, but would be at best misleading in most situations.

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Fact: according to dictionary.com, you're wrong:



So, by the first definition, people can use "doctor" to refer specifically to a medical doctor. This is a point of practical usage. When people say "I'm looking for a doctor", it's pretty clear that they mean doctor by this first definition. Saying things like "I am a doctor" when I have a PhD may be technically true in the sense that I have a doctoral degree, but would be at best misleading in most situations.

Eh...I think Medwell was being sarcastic - almost anyone with a D in their degree calls themselves a "doctor" these days.

OD, DC, ND, you name it.
 
Eh...I think Medwell was being sarcastic - almost anyone with a D in their degree calls themselves a "doctor" these days.

OD, DC, ND, you name it.


Fair enough, though there are certainly people that would say such things without being at all sarcastic :)

I think the trend of calling yourself "doctor" is only an issue within the medical community. In science, people don't seem to care much about it save for introductions, etc.
 
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Fact: according to dictionary.com, you're wrong:



So, by the first definition, people can use "doctor" to refer specifically to a medical doctor. This is a point of practical usage. When people say "I'm looking for a doctor", it's pretty clear that they mean doctor by this first definition. Saying things like "I am a doctor" when I have a PhD may be technically true in the sense that I have a doctoral degree, but would be at best misleading in most situations.

Did you ever see that King of the Hill where Peggy and all these other people get ripped off when they get their fake PhDs and then someone has a heart attack and you hear "he's having a heart attack, someone call a doctor" and this old lady with her new fake PhD goes "I'm a doctor!"

yeah
that
:laugh:
 
chiropractors are considered doctors, so why isnt there a forum for them on this site? why dont more people go into chiropractic care? they do very well and the lifestyle is great.... whats the problem?

http://www.planetc1.com/chiropractic-articles/salary/chiropractor_salary_pg2.html

If chiropractors are doctors, so is anyone who completed a Master's degree. Physical therapists who complete the same (or less) training as physician's assistant's are supposed to be "doctors" too. I will never address anyone who hasn't completed an MD or PhD as "Doctor." Sorry, but you're barking up the wrong tree here.
 
Fact: If you have a degree with the letter "D" in it, you're a "doctor".

Any other definition of "doctor" is incorrect, no exceptions.

True, but here's the thing, if one wants to me a medical doctor, then there are ways to become one, MD or DO. What is happening currently is that other medically related careers are encroaching on physicians' turf. And it's not just an ego thing (though surely it is in play here). The point is that, of all the various things that can go wrong in the human body, a (MD/DO) physician is better suited to diagnosis and treat them than really any other member of the health field. I'm not saying they aren't vital assets, but the person in charge should be a MD/DO.

If I guy goes into his chiro office: 'doc I got lower back pain. Can you help me out?. Chiro "yes sir I can." Few adjustments later, guy walks out the door. Sounds great if the cause of his back pain was musculoskeletal, right? What if it was a AAA, or metastatic cancer to the spine? (feel free to add your own cause of musculoskeletal pain that a chiro may think they could fix, when there are actually bigger things going on).

What bothers me about chiropractors and other members of the health field that contain doctoral degrees is that they think they can do just as good of a job as a MD/DO physician. That is not always the case. They, at least some of them, don't understand their limits. A chiro told me they are basically a medical doctor as they can treat any condition (background: Illinois passed a medical act in the 80's saying chiros cannot do surgery or prescribe meds, but did not in any way limit the ailments a chiro could treat. I would assume most states have something similar). um...huh? By that a chiro can help with your cancer, tb, std, anything.

I am not anti-chiro, I think it and CAM can be useful as long as a MD/DO is on board and aware of what is going on. Do I (or the medical community) fully understand how these work? Nope, but if having needles shoved in you eases your pain, I'll just take it as a successful treatment and move on. All I ask is you let me know what you're doing.
 
That doesn't mean they are doctors. Just like PharmD, OD, DPT, etc. aren't thought of as doctors.

Hey man! Don't lump us in there next to a Chiropractor.

who gives a crap. it's pseudoscientific smut. it's not evidence-based. it's alternative medicine (aka, s***)

Some alternative medicine is evidence-based...

In an academic setting, absolutely anyone with a doctoral degree such as a Ph.D, Ed.D, PharmD, JD, PsyD, DPT, ND, OTD, DrPh, ThD, etc should be addressed as "doctor," unless directed otherwise.

In the health care setting, such as a hospital, the term "doctor" is for health care practitioners who hold a doctorate-level degree ie. one who can legally diagnose and treat illnesses. The following degree holders are currently called "doctor" in a healthcare setting; anyone with an MD, DO, DMD, DDS, DPM, PsyD or PhD in Clinical Psyc, AuD or PhD in Audiology, OD, and DC. I don't know if there's anyone else called Doctor in the health care field, other than a rising trend in DNPs, DPTs (and possibly OTDs), and PharmDs referring to themselves as such. Not sure if NDs are allowed in hospitals.

There was an annoying debate about this in the Pharmacy forum. Conclusion: Some people will call themselves Doctor and some will not. Personally, I would prefer to go by my first name in a hospital or community setting. Whatever the patients want to call me is up to them.
 
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I personally look at some professions as equivalent to another job on the same pay scale. I can make much more than a chiropractor while driving a semi with ZERO education.
 
There was an annoying debate about this in the Pharmacy forum. Conclusion: Some people will call themselves Doctor and some will not. Personally, I would prefer to go by my first name in a hospital or community setting. Whatever the patients want to call me is up to them.

Would you correct them, though, if they for some reason called you doctor? And not doctor because you got a doctorate degree (since there's an argument about that) but doctor as in physician.
 
Would you correct them, though, if they for some reason called you doctor? And not doctor because you got a doctorate degree (since there's an argument about that) but doctor as in physician.

The conversation would go something like this in a hospital or ambulatory setting:

"Hi, my name is Lea and I am the pharmacist...blahblah"

I would have PharmD after my name so whether or not they pick up on the "doctor" part is not as important to me as it is to others. But, those that pick up on it might call me doctor even after they know I am the pharmacist. Obviously at that point, they would know I am not a physician.

The reason I say it is up to them is because, in some cultures (ie those that speak spanish), the pharmacist is called "el doctor" or "la doctora". Back when I worked retail, those patients would always call the pharmacist doctor.
 
Chiropractors are not:

1) Doctors. They're obviously not physicians, but honestly they also don't really have a doctoral level degree. They have undergraduate level training in a kind of pseudoscience. Since it doesn't build on a scientific undergraduate education it can't really be considered a doctoral level extension of undergraduate education but rather a second undergraduate degree or vocational program. The fact that you went to a 3 year carpentry program after you graduated from college does not make you a doctor of carpentry, it makes you a certified carpenter with an undergraduate degree in an unrelated subject.

2) Useful: They don't fix anything. Not asthma, not trauma, and not back pain either.

3) Profitable: While there are certainly some chiros out there that get hundreds of thousands from operating successful practices, as a whole this is the single most likely profession to default on student loans. It turns out that there is a limited demand for uselessness

4) Safe: They prevent people from recieving appropriate treatment and occasionally cause strokes and vertebral artery dissections.

5) Going to have a forum here: Chiropractors are part of the healthcare community in the sense that crack dealers are part of an urban community. Yes they're there but they're not exactly valued members of the team and I see no reason to dialogue with them.

damn.. SDN's bumping with the out-of-this-world zingers lately.. i want to add this to my sig too. amazing post.
 
The conversation would go something like this in a hospital or ambulatory setting:

"Hi, my name is Lea and I am the pharmacist...blahblah"

I would have PharmD after my name so whether or not they pick up on the "doctor" part is not as important to me as it is to others. But, those that pick up on it might call me doctor even after they know I am the pharmacist. Obviously at that point, they would know I am not a physician.

The reason I say it is up to them is because, in some cultures (ie those that speak spanish), the pharmacist is called "el doctor" or "la doctora". Back when I worked retail, those patients would always call the pharmacist doctor.

Okay, I misunderstood what you said in your original statement then, so I needed to clarify. It had just sounded like you'd state your first name, and if they called you doctor then so be it.
 
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chiropractors are considered doctors, so why isnt there a forum for them on this site? why dont more people go into chiropractic care? they do very well and the lifestyle is great.... whats the problem?

http://www.planetc1.com/chiropractic-articles/salary/chiropractor_salary_pg2.html
Because they are quacky woo-peddlers. Their whole system is based on unsubstantiated, magical-thinking notions of how the body works. They have a few techniques that help sore backs and necks in some cases - so do physiotherapists, and without the quackery. Regardless of the money, I couldn't go try to sell people a service I don't believe in and pretend like I took it seriously.

My husband often likes to joke that he is the doctor in the family - the juris doctor.
 
Okay, I misunderstood what you said in your original statement then, so I needed to clarify. It had just sounded like you'd state your first name, and if they called you doctor then so be it.

If you are in the hospital setting and they call you doctor, you should correct them. To the population Doctor = physician, and in this instance, that is not accurate. Several states are actually looking into/have passed legislation pertaining to this issue.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=723328&highlight=referring+to+as+doctor
(this thread refers to DNP, but legislation, if in place, often bars DPT, and I would assume PharmD as well).
 
If you are in the hospital setting and they call you doctor, you should correct them. To the population Doctor = physician, and in this instance, that is not accurate. Several states are actually looking into/have passed legislation pertaining to this issue.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=723328&highlight=referring+to+as+doctor
(this thread refers to DNP, but legislation, if in place, often bars DPT, and I would assume PharmD as well).

If you tell them you are not a physician and they call you doctor anyway, are they going to get sued? :laugh: C'mon, that is a bit much...it is one thing to run around the hospital saying, "I am Dr. so and so" and it is another thing to tell them that, although you have doctor after you name you are not a physician, and they call you doctor anyway.

Like I said, the best way to do it is to go on a first name basis.
 
We don't have forums catered to Alternative-Medicine.

I thought I would throw this in there for you to read since you "don't" cover alternative medicine....

From the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine,
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/#types


What are the major types of complementary and alternative medicine?

(partially taken from site)
Manipulative and Body-Based Practices

Manipulative and body-based practices in CAM are based on manipulationThe application of controlled force to a joint, moving it beyond the normal range of motion in an effort to aid in restoring health. Manipulation may be performed as a part of other therapies or whole medical systems, including chiropractic medicine, massage, and naturopathy. and/or movement of one or more parts of the body. Some examples include chiropractic or osteopathic manipulation A type of manipulation practiced by osteopathic physicians. It is combined with physical therapy and instruction in proper posture., and massage Pressing, rubbing, and moving muscles and other soft tissues of the body, primarily by using the hands and fingers. The aim is to increase the flow of blood and oxygen to the massaged area..


But I am sure you will say that NCCAM is not a reputable organization.



Just trying to pass along truth...
 
I thought I would throw this in there for you to read since you "don't" cover alternative medicine....

From the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine,
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/#types


What are the major types of complementary and alternative medicine?

(partially taken from site)
Manipulative and Body-Based Practices

Manipulative and body-based practices in CAM are based on manipulationThe application of controlled force to a joint, moving it beyond the normal range of motion in an effort to aid in restoring health. Manipulation may be performed as a part of other therapies or whole medical systems, including chiropractic medicine, massage, and naturopathy. and/or movement of one or more parts of the body. Some examples include chiropractic or osteopathic manipulation A type of manipulation practiced by osteopathic physicians. It is combined with physical therapy and instruction in proper posture., and massage Pressing, rubbing, and moving muscles and other soft tissues of the body, primarily by using the hands and fingers. The aim is to increase the flow of blood and oxygen to the massaged area..


But I am sure you will say that NCCAM is not a reputable organization.



Just trying to pass along truth...


If you believe everything you read, then I am happy to finally find you. I am a Nigerian prince in need of your assistance...
 
If you believe everything you read, then I am happy to finally find you. I am a Nigerian prince in need of your assistance...

:laugh:

FROM: Mister Ganek Ej'hal, Esq.

Dear Sir or Madam,

Having consulted with my colleagues at the Citadel, I have the privilege to request for your assistance to transfer a large quantity of Prothean technology uncovered at Ilos. Believing these materials to be a hazardous danger, they were locked in quarantine. Even though the tests revealed that the fears were groundless, the quarantine remains in effect until one can pay for a permit to request a reclassification from the cultural ministry.

Knowing of your interest in Prothean technology, I would be happy to deliver most of it into your hands, keeping less than half for myself. As a Batarian, I cannot engage in Council official activities, but if you transfer the 20,000 credits required to me, this exchange could be made in your name, enabling us both to profits from this happy accident.

Please reply urgently with your credit transfer account information.

Best regards,
Ganak Ej'hal
 
Chiropractors might be even on a lower standing in the healthcare community than the crack dealer in the urban community... at least the crack dealer peddles real crack. chiropractry would be the equivalent of selling baggies of sugar (or whatever cocaine resembles) and telling people it's crack.

this made me lol
 
:laugh:

FROM: Mister Ganek Ej'hal, Esq.

Dear Sir or Madam,

Having consulted with my colleagues at the Citadel, I have the privilege to request for your assistance to transfer a large quantity of Prothean technology uncovered at Ilos. Believing these materials to be a hazardous danger, they were locked in quarantine. Even though the tests revealed that the fears were groundless, the quarantine remains in effect until one can pay for a permit to request a reclassification from the cultural ministry.

Knowing of your interest in Prothean technology, I would be happy to deliver most of it into your hands, keeping less than half for myself. As a Batarian, I cannot engage in Council official activities, but if you transfer the 20,000 credits required to me, this exchange could be made in your name, enabling us both to profits from this happy accident.

Please reply urgently with your credit transfer account information.

Best regards,
Ganak Ej'hal

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 
I thought I would throw this in there for you to read since you "don't" cover alternative medicine....

From the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine,
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/#types


What are the major types of complementary and alternative medicine?

(partially taken from site)
Manipulative and Body-Based Practices

Manipulative and body-based practices in CAM are based on manipulationThe application of controlled force to a joint, moving it beyond the normal range of motion in an effort to aid in restoring health. Manipulation may be performed as a part of other therapies or whole medical systems, including chiropractic medicine, massage, and naturopathy. and/or movement of one or more parts of the body. Some examples include chiropractic or osteopathic manipulation A type of manipulation practiced by osteopathic physicians. It is combined with physical therapy and instruction in proper posture., and massage Pressing, rubbing, and moving muscles and other soft tissues of the body, primarily by using the hands and fingers. The aim is to increase the flow of blood and oxygen to the massaged area..


But I am sure you will say that NCCAM is not a reputable organization.



Just trying to pass along truth...
Dude, that is just a definition not research into the efficacy of the treatment modalities or ethics and training of its practitioners. That site also defines homeopathy. Heck there is even a more specific definition on the site for chiropractic. The fact that the NIH has a site devoted to collecting information on CAM doesn't make it less of a sCAM. (God forgive me for that horrible horrible pun)

Edit: Also why is this in pre-allo? I get that they play fast and loose with being on topic in pre-allo but this really has nothing to do with applying for or preparing for medical school.
 
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Psychosomatic medicine can be a very powerful tool at the very least. While I agree some distinction should be made among their training (and titele), its not fair to belittle a field no one has studied or practiced. While many points made in the post are extremely valid, I don't agree with the negative sentiment towards chiropractic practitioners.

GROUP HUG
 
I thought I would throw this in there for you to read since you "don't" cover alternative medicine....

From the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine,
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/#types


What are the major types of complementary and alternative medicine?

(partially taken from site)
Manipulative and Body-Based Practices

Manipulative and body-based practices in CAM are based on manipulationThe application of controlled force to a joint, moving it beyond the normal range of motion in an effort to aid in restoring health. Manipulation may be performed as a part of other therapies or whole medical systems, including chiropractic medicine, massage, and naturopathy. and/or movement of one or more parts of the body. Some examples include chiropractic or osteopathic manipulation A type of manipulation practiced by osteopathic physicians. It is combined with physical therapy and instruction in proper posture., and massage Pressing, rubbing, and moving muscles and other soft tissues of the body, primarily by using the hands and fingers. The aim is to increase the flow of blood and oxygen to the massaged area..


But I am sure you will say that NCCAM is not a reputable organization.



Just trying to pass along truth...

One of the great myths perpetuated is that MDs/DOs have no "idea" about these alternative treatments and providers and this is why we don't recognize or deal with them (just like we don't learn about treating the whole patient or nutrition... sigh :rolleyes:)

Frankly, my school actually had a few days of lectures by alternative medicine people--they thought it was an important we know what some of our patients choose instead of our care--delieved by chiros, NDs, etc and to see what they did. So, please, don't make assumptions. Just because we don't have a dedicated forum here, doesn't mean we don't "understand your profession". Most of us do, we just tend to stay away from it.
 
:laugh:

FROM: Mister Ganek Ej'hal, Esq.

Dear Sir or Madam,

Having consulted with my colleagues at the Citadel, I have the privilege to request for your assistance to transfer a large quantity of Prothean technology uncovered at Ilos. Believing these materials to be a hazardous danger, they were locked in quarantine. Even though the tests revealed that the fears were groundless, the quarantine remains in effect until one can pay for a permit to request a reclassification from the cultural ministry.

Knowing of your interest in Prothean technology, I would be happy to deliver most of it into your hands, keeping less than half for myself. As a Batarian, I cannot engage in Council official activities, but if you transfer the 20,000 credits required to me, this exchange could be made in your name, enabling us both to profits from this happy accident.

Please reply urgently with your credit transfer account information.

Best regards,
Ganak Ej'hal

:laugh:
 
I LOL'ed for real when I got that e-mail in the game, as well as the "Ur 2 small!" one. *Dead*
 
i hear theres a lot of money in chiropractic care though.... chiropractors are wealthy

Nope not at all. Think 150k debt with an avg starting salary of 40k. Also try going to the mall to set up a kiosk to get patients. Also the profession isn't respected at all because it is all quackery. Trust me lawyers have a much easier life than the life of freshly minted chiropractors.

http://www.wisconsinchiropractic.com/aca.htm

Reinventing the ACA
How to fix the Managed Care – Medicare – Chiropractic Leadership MESS

Many in the chiropractic profession are struggling financially. Whether it is a new graduate, or a well established chiropractor, incomes are under significant pressure. Unfortunately, no one on the national level appears to be responding. The membership of the ACA is very low because the average chiropractor thinks it would be a waste of money to join; and, as of the moment, they are right.

What is the problem? The ACA says it could accomplish more if it only had more members. The 55,000+ chiropractors (active/alive-not historical total) who do not belong to the ACA have no interest in joining until they see some results. The chiropractic profession is at an impasse (def. ‘a predicament affording no obvious escape.’ -Webster’s)– but in the meantime, very real problems are confronting the profession and all the profession is getting is excuses.


Pg. 4, Educational Institutions

When it comes to maximized the long-term potential of chiropractic, the profession has a dilemma. If the chiropractic profession wants to be perceived by the public in the same manner as engineers, geologists, physicists, biochemists, or medical doctors, it must attract the same type of individual to the profession as they do to theirs.

Government agencies and high school guidance counselors provide information about a career in chiropractic. Students interested in becoming a chiropractor may now compare the potential of a career in chiropractic alongside alternative careers for high-achieving students. While the chiropractic profession has attracted some of the brightest and most gifted, the typical student entering chiropractic today has changed along with the business opportunity.

The ACA needs to be concerned with the type of students being admitted to chiropractic colleges/universities. When students are unprepared to deliver the quality of health care demanded by consumers, or to handle the competitive business challenges in an era dominated by managed care, the profession suffers greatly.

You can see indication of these problems in:

• The deteriorating quality of advertising in which unsubstantiated claims of quality and/or superiority are made

• An increasing proportion of chiropractors who use gimmicks such as ‘free services’ or vastly reduce fees for the patients’ first visit in order to attract patients to their practices

• Chiropractors who under treat patients because of intimidation or constraints imposed by managed care or insurers

• Chiropractors who over treat patients worker’s compensation and/or personal injury (PI) patients to make up for the low reimbursement

The Money Shot….

The Wisconsin Chiropractic Association conducts an annual compensation survey in which more than 50% of the chiropractors in Wisconsin participate. In 2006, the mean income for male chiropractors with less than 3 years experience was $31,714. The mean income for female chiropractors with less than 3 years experience was $30,833. According to the National Association of Colleges and Employers, the average starting salary for a liberal arts graduate in 2006 was $30,958. A chiropractic graduate spends an additional $100,000 - $125,000 only to find out that their salaries are comparable to a 4-year liberal arts graduate, INSTEAD of the much higher paying careers in engineering, geology, physics, biochemistry, or the medical profession.

Those incomes are for those chiropractors who ‘succeed.’ The chiropractic profession, unfortunately, has failures – and a much higher percentage than other health care professions.

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services maintains a website that details the number and amount of defaulted HEAL loans (see chart).

Defaulted HEAL loans as of May, 2007

Discipline, Total Defaulted, Amount Due

Allopathic Medicine…134…$19,000,205
Chiropractic…623…$66,951,919
Clinical psychology…32…$3,031,897
Dentistry…218…$36,059,040
Health Administration…2…$70,192
Optometry…22…$1,769,415
Osteopathy…27…$4,574,761
Pharmacy…14…$1,018,577
Podiatry…83…$16,253,083
Public Health…5…$591,638
Veterinary Medicine…1…$47,537

Total Defaulted, Total Amount Due

1,161…$149,368,264

As of May 2007, defaults by chiropractic represent 45% of all defaulted loans. That statistic, in itself, is an incredible blow to the credibility of the career prospects in chiropractic. However, when you consider that the number of students enrolled in chiropractic colleges/universities is a small percentage of the total number of students in ALL health professions, the default rate of the chiropractors is staggering.

The data in the chart strongly suggests that the market for chiropractic services is NOT large enough to sustain the number of graduating students and/or that these graduates are not trained to meet the challenges upon graduation.
 
If you believe everything you read, then I am happy to finally find you. I am a Nigerian prince in need of your assistance...

Dude, that is just a definition not research into the efficacy of the treatment modalities or ethics and training of its practitioners. That site also defines homeopathy. Heck there is even a more specific definition on the site for chiropractic. The fact that the NIH has a site devoted to collecting information on CAM doesn't make it less of a sCAM. (God forgive me for that horrible horrible pun)

Never said I believed it, just posted it.

Well, dude, I guess anything that goes against md's/do's is a scam and can't be true or posted.

God forbid that professions get along and work to clear up the negatives that impede this, but we wouldn't want to do this now would we?

Also I would think if the NIH was going to post something out there that they might have done the research. But, I could be wrong.

Take care...
 

If your point is that a chiropractor is equivalent to an osteopathic physician, you're way off. DOs don't just learn manipulation. They learn a curriculum equivalent to the MD curriculum, with the addition of osteopathic manipulation. Until chiropractors study a curriculum similar to MDs, they're not physicians.
 
Wow, this thread really degraded.I think enough has been said about whether or not they're 'doctors'.

On another note

Does anyone remember within maybe a year, there was a thread of chiropractic students leaving their programs? Each school was pumping out like 80-100 new chiros every year, and they all stayed in that city to set up shop. This resulted in a massive over-saturation of the market, and these "wealthy" chiropractors never even got a chance to get off their feet. that stat about them having a very high default rate is legit.
 
We don't have forums catered to Alternative-Medicine.

I thought I would throw this in there for you to read since you "don't" cover alternative medicine....

Caesar's statement is true. Although, maybe Caesar should have written, "... solely to Alternative-Medicine."

1) SDN doesn't have an OMM forum or one catered to OMM specialists.
2) The existence of a DO forum is not catering to alternative medicine. See Murphy Brown's post.
 
If your point is that a chiropractor is equivalent to an osteopathic physician, you're way off. DOs don't just learn manipulation. They learn a curriculum equivalent to the MD curriculum, with the addition of osteopathic manipulation. Until chiropractors study a curriculum similar to MDs, they're not physicians.

I did not say they are equivalent. Equality is something that this forum doesn't seem to promote. But more to put down any profession that is not MD/DO, etc.

I will say this. I am a doctor, in and of the scope that I was taught to practice. Do I practice outside that scope, absolutely not. But I do have a 'medical' opinion when asked and if it can help, then I will provide it. Do I feel inferior to MD's/DO's, absolutely not. MD/DO's have helped cases when I exhausted all resources and I have helped cases when MD/DO's have exhausted all resources or the patient had enough.

You can put me and my profession down, you can kick dirt of us, and snub your nose but remember a few things. Our goal is to help patients, period. We need to stop this hatred of professions and get along to achieve the common goal at whatever means possible.

Just as there are good MD's, there are bad ones too. Same with DC's. One bad apple does not spoil the bunch, take that into consideration.

Also, just FYI. I realize that Chiro have a higher default rate, but Dentist, Allopathic Med (includes MD's), Podiatrists and Osteo's make up a huge chuck as well. (source HRSA)
 
I did not say they are equivalent. Equality is something that this forum doesn't seem to promote. But more to put down any profession that is not MD/DO, etc.

I will say this. I am a doctor, in and of the scope that I was taught to practice. Do I practice outside that scope, absolutely not. But I do have a 'medical' opinion when asked and if it can help, then I will provide it. Do I feel inferior to MD's/DO's, absolutely not. MD/DO's have helped cases when I exhausted all resources and I have helped cases when MD/DO's have exhausted all resources or the patient had enough.

You can put me and my profession down, you can kick dirt of us, and snub your nose but remember a few things. Our goal is to help patients, period. We need to stop this hatred of professions and get along to achieve the common goal at whatever means possible.

Just as there are good MD's, there are bad ones too. Same with DC's. One bad apple does not spoil the bunch, take that into consideration.

Also, just FYI. I realize that Chiro have a higher default rate, but Dentist, Allopathic Med (includes MD's), Podiatrists and Osteo's make up a huge chuck as well. (source HRSA)
no one cares

besides, you can have whatever opinion you want, but it's not 'medical' it's 'chiropractic.'
 
I did not say they are equivalent. Equality is something that this forum doesn't seem to promote. But more to put down any profession that is not MD/DO, etc. )


I will say this. I am a doctor, in and of the scope that I was taught to practice. Do I practice outside that scope, absolutely not. But I do have a 'medical' opinion when asked and if it can help, then I will provide it. Do I feel inferior to MD's/DO's, absolutely not. MD/DO's have helped cases when I exhausted all resources and I have helped cases when MD/DO's have exhausted all resources or the patient had enough.

You can put me and my profession down, you can kick dirt of us, and snub your nose but remember a few things. Our goal is to help patients, period. We need to stop this hatred of professions and get along to achieve the common goal at whatever means possible.

Just as there are good MD's, there are bad ones too. Same with DC's. One bad apple does not spoil the bunch, take that into consideration.

Also, just FYI. I realize that Chiro have a higher default rate, but Dentist, Allopathic Med (includes MD's), Podiatrists and Osteo's make up a huge chuck as well. (source HRSA)

We don't put down 'any' profession that isn't MD/DO, just the useless ones. We have nothing but the highest respect for pharmicists, physical therapists, PAs, social workers, all of the various gradations of nurses (please don't mistake our various discussions of who should have what practice rights as a lack of respect), podiatrists, optomotrists, phlebotomists, and really any member of the health care team. Neither do we (or at least I) feel superior to any of these hard working individuals by virtue of our particular career path.

However we've done more than enough studies to realize that chiropractors are not part of the team. Patients under their care don't get better any faster than patients who have nothing to do with them, and in many cases actually have worse outcomes either because the chiropractor hurts them directly or because they prevent them from seeking appropriate care and instead guide them to other CAM treatment options that are even more actively harmful. I'm sure you're very educated in what you do, but what you do doesn't work and in the process of doing it you are takin money from patients who usually have very little to spare. A chiropractor is no better than an acupucturist, Reiki healer, healing crystal expert, spirit healer, or voodoo practicioner. That's why, though there are certainly bad doctors, there are no good chiropractors. To be good at what you do, what you do needs to be a good thing.

Sorry, you seem like a reasonably nice and well intentioned person, but we need to protect our patients from your profession. We need to protect them from getting robbed, we need to keep them from getting hurt, we need to maintain their faith in evidence based medicine to keep them compliant with the treatments that actually can help them, and failing all else we need to keep from giving them false hope when they need to be coming to terms with a condition that might be beyond anyone's ability to treat. If your goal is to help your patients I strongly recommend you retrain to work in a field that actually can help them.
 
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no one cares

besides, you can have whatever opinion you want, but it's not 'medical' it's 'chiropractic.'

Well I am sorry you feel that way.

We don't put down 'any' profession that isn't MD/DO, just the useless ones. We have nothing but the highest respect for pharmacists, physical therapists, PAs, social workers, all of the various gradations of nurses (please don't mistake our various discussions of who should have what practice rights as a lack of respect), podiatrists, optometrists, phlebotomy, and really any member of the health care team. Neither do we (or at least I) feel superior to any of these hard working individuals by virtue of our particular career path.

However we've done more than enough studies to realize that chiropractors are not part of the team. Patients under their care don't get better any faster than patients who have nothing to do with them, and in many cases actually have worse outcomes either because the chiropractor hurts them directly or because they prevent them from seeking appropriate care and instead guide them to other CAM treatment options that are even more actively harmful. I'm sure you're very educated in what you do, but what you do doesn't work and in the process of doing it you are takin money from patients who usually have very little to spare. A chiropractor is no better than an acupuncturist, Reiki healer, healing crystal expert, spirit healer, or voodoo practitioner. That's why, though there are certainly bad doctors, there are no good chiropractors. To be good at what you do, what you do needs to be a good thing.

Sorry, you seem like a reasonably nice and well intentioned person, but we need to protect our patients from your profession. We need to protect them from getting robbed, we need to keep them from getting hurt, we need to maintain their faith in evidence based medicine to keep them compliant with the treatments that actually can help them, and failing all else we need to keep from giving them false hope when they need to be coming to terms with a condition that might be beyond anyone's ability to treat. If your goal is to help your patients I strongly recommend you retrain to work in a field that actually can help them.

Part of whose team? Yours? Thanks but no thanks.

Scares me that you can't spell. :laugh:

I work with MD's here and we get along just fine. Referrals go both ways. So not sure what the hang up is with most on here.

I don't give people false hope, I don't rob people, and I know that I help people. If I feel that a case is out of my scope then I do send out for referral as I would not want someone to not get the care that they need. I guess it is a different mind set.

But your comment about keeping patients compliant, is spoken like a true MD. Patients have the right to choose in case you forgot.
 
Well I am sorry you feel that way.



Part of whose team? Yours? Thanks but no thanks.

Scares me that you can't spell. :laugh:

I work with MD's here and we get along just fine. Referrals go both ways. So not sure what the hang up is with most on here.

I don't give people false hope, I don't rob people, and I know that I help people. If I feel that a case is out of my scope then I do send out for referral as I would not want someone to not get the care that they need. I guess it is a different mind set.

But your comment about keeping patients compliant, is spoken like a true MD. Patients have the right to choose in case you forgot.

Don't kid yourself. Those doctors are the same ones making derogatory comments about your field when you're not around.

The more research that's done, the more chiropractic work is shown to be unhelpful and dangerous.
 
I don't give people false hope, I don't rob people, and I know that I help people. If I feel that a case is out of my scope then I do send out for referral as I would not want someone to not get the care that they need. I guess it is a different mind set.
so... everything?
 
Well I am sorry you feel that way.



Part of whose team? Yours? Thanks but no thanks.

Scares me that you can't spell. :laugh:

I work with MD's here and we get along just fine. Referrals go both ways. So not sure what the hang up is with most on here.

I don't give people false hope, I don't rob people, and I know that I help people. If I feel that a case is out of my scope then I do send out for referral as I would not want someone to not get the care that they need. I guess it is a different mind set.

But your comment about keeping patients compliant, is spoken like a true MD. Patients have the right to choose in case you forgot.

http://www.pr.com/press-release/203301

This is an example of why chiropractors have no idea what they are doing with regard to anything outside of their scope (which like others have said is basically everything)

This article was posted in response to many studies that link Neck manipulation to stroke. Apparently there is also a link between AAA and Chiropractor visits.

One of the "experts" in the article likens getting a stroke after neck manipulation to getting into a car accident after a dentist visit. Are you F-in kidding me??? In one there is a direct relationship (Neck and Stroke) and in one there is 0 relationship whatsoever. I just think that this kind of practice leads itself to overstepping of bounds and a reluctance (not everyone and maybe not you but definitely a proportion of DC's) to deny that they in fact cannot treat a persons ailment and that trying to might actually harm them.
 
In the end, chiropractic has an impressive safety record compared to traditional medical care with estimates are that anywhere from 100,000 (Institute of medicine) to 750,000 (Null et al) people die every year from medical care.
:whistle:
 
Don't kid yourself. Those doctors are the same ones making derogatory comments about your field when you're not around.

The more research that's done, the more chiropractic work is shown to be unhelpful and dangerous.

You may be correct. :rolleyes:

so... everything?

Wow, such an ass.. I am sure your patients will love you..:thumbdown:
 
In the end, chiropractic has an impressive safety record compared to traditional medical care with estimates are that anywhere from 100,000 (Institute of medicine) to 750,000 (Null et al) people die every year from medical care. :whistle:

See, the difference is that medical care also has a success rate. We're aware that our procedures are dangerous, which is why we always do carefully controlled studies to make sure that more patients get better with our treatments than without. We then let the patient decide whether or not the risk is worth the chance of cure/improvement. Sometimes it's an obvious choice (ex: an appendectomy: very low complication rate, very high fatality rate for those who don't get it done) and other times it's a difficult choice (ex: spinal fusion for acute back trauma: a real chance of death or paralysis weighted against a significant by still very moderate improvement in pain symptoms)

Chiropractic, on the other hand, shows no success rate in study after study. That means that ANY risk is unacceptable, because if you hurt so much as a single person you are hurting more people than you helped.

The physicians who refer to you are either cowardly (it's easier to tell a patient you're doing somethig than to tell them they don't need anything done, which is why thousands of FPs perscrbe antibiotics for viral illnessess), lazy (not everyone bothers to read up on chiropractic before they start to refer to them), or greedy (as you said, referals go both ways). I have a lot less sympathy for them then I have for chiropractors. They should know better.
 
Clinical, being that you only have 10 posts to your name, it almost seems like you came on here to start trouble. You may very well be proud of your profession, and that's great. However, I'm not sure why you felt the need to make an account just to tell all of us that we're wrong, and you're right, because you're a chiropractor. Obviously, you have a lot of time on your hands. Did you just search for threads on Google or something badmouthing Chiropractors and just decided you HAD to make an account and tell all of us that we don't know what we're talking about?

The OP asked where is the "Chiropractor" part of the forums, and it was mentioned that we just don't have them here. Maybe there really is a Chiro forum out there, and maybe you should go spend time over there instead of constantly arguing with the people here who are trying to be physicians, pharmacists, etc. We're not trying to be Chiropractors and we don't want to be converted over to your ways of practice, so I guess what I'm saying is you're beating a dead horse. We get it. You think you do some good, we think otherwise, and you're not going to change your tune and neither are we.

So.. why are you still here?
 
In the end, chiropractic has an impressive safety record compared to traditional medical care with estimates are that anywhere from 100,000 (Institute of medicine) to 750,000 (Null et al) people die every year from medical care. :whistle:

How many more would die if we sent everyone to chiropractors?
 
Clinical, being that you only have 10 posts to your name, it almost seems like you came on here to start trouble. You may very well be proud of your profession, and that's great. However, I'm not sure why you felt the need to make an account just to tell all of us that we're wrong, and you're right, because you're a chiropractor. Obviously, you have a lot of time on your hands. Did you just search for threads on Google or something badmouthing Chiropractors and just decided you HAD to make an account and tell all of us that we don't know what we're talking about?

The OP asked where is the "Chiropractor" part of the forums, and it was mentioned that we just don't have them here. Maybe there really is a Chiro forum out there, and maybe you should go spend time over there instead of constantly arguing with the people here who are trying to be physicians, pharmacists, etc. We're not trying to be Chiropractors and we don't want to be converted over to your ways of practice, so I guess what I'm saying is you're beating a dead horse. We get it. You think you do some good, we think otherwise, and you're not going to change your tune and neither are we.

So.. why are you still here?

Actually I came here to look around.
 
How many more would die if we sent everyone to chiropractors?

If this eMedicine article I skimmed is correct, about 330k get appendicitis in the US each year. Approximately 20% of those cases will result in peritonitis and death. So that's 66k deaths per year just from appendicitis. Please feel free to add more to the list.
 
If this eMedicine article I skimmed is correct, about 330k get appendicitis in the US each year. Approximately 20% of those cases will result in peritonitis and death. So that's 66k deaths per year just from appendicitis. Please feel free to add more to the list.

Not to mention 'medicine' also includes trauma. I wonder how many GSW, MVC, and burns are from the ever elusive "subluxations" :laugh:
 
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