Why are so many premeds stupid?

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Where do all you get them left over tests from? Do you just go up to random people and ask them if they took X's class? (Going to college soon)

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[vincikai]

hm...all of these feel personal to me, i say you have a thing for the girl

 

[TheOpsonizer]

Hmmm,
looks like there's some interest in evening the score. Well then. . .
I'd better

 

[Med Addict]

My philosophy: "You didn't cheat if you didn't get caught."

on the flip side, if you do get caught, you're screwed.

 

[Hercules022]

The girl that the OP talked about is a fool, plain and simple. When you get a grade in a class, there isn't a essay attached to it where you explain how you got it and how hard you studied and how you didn't cheat at all. It's just a letter on a piece of paper that AMCAS is going to convert into a number one day. I'd do what you have to to make sure the number is a high one (within reason of course). The guy or girl who gets a C but did it the "noble" way should make sure to explain that in his PS, I'm sure med schools will totally understand

My diagnosis for the girl: Liquor. And frequently.

 

[top]

My diagnosis for the girl: Liquor. And frequently.

But dude, that would give her an unfair advantage in dealing with her life problems. I bet she'd want to do it the "noble" way.

 

[butmylipshurtrealbad]

I think using old tests, hw's, whatever is almost a necessity in some cases. I don't know if you can really base using them on morals because then you are assuming that your professor actually has some, and that test making and grading are done morally. Unfortunately, a lot of professors either have some TA write questions that have nothing to do with the course, ask ridiculous questions only they would know the answer to, ask questions in some weird code languade, etc.... you get my point. And it might not even be intentional, some are just too introverted to be able to write a question that makes sense to anyone else, etc. I had many classes as an undergrad in which it was probably impossible to get an A without the extra help... lame, yes, but that's the way it is. I TAed during college, and the professors expected kids to see old tests and assignments, and it is up to them to figure out how they want to deal with it (give out practice tests themselves, think of new questions ...). I'm really sorry in advance if this is totally repetative to another post, I got lazy and didn't read the whole thread

 

[crazy_cavalier]

Old exams are fair territory unless the professor explicitly expresses that they are off limits. An altogether "extreme" sense of moral self-righteousness is academically unhealthy.

My physiology instructor actually encouraged us to try to seek out old exams, and he said they would be good material to study. Turned out his exams were very, very similar to the old exams... yeah, so he wound up reversing that policy this year.

 

[Bluntman]

Where do all you get them left over tests from? Do you just go up to random people and ask them if they took X's class? (Going to college soon)

You get them from a crazy thing called "friends".

 

[OctoDoc]

It's okay though becuase Chem II is complete bull****, and its basically a lot of equations and plugging and chugging (the rest is bull**** tha tyou learn in chemistry regents) and anything your eally need to learn will be learne din 5 minutes in your review book for the mcat.

i believe that undergrad is just another barrier of bull****tness that i have to go through, because unless we have standardized tests to compare all students in america, the professors' tests are completely subjective and may not really indicate a person's understanding of the material. Unfair, yes, that is why smart people are exam crackers.

Wow. With blanket statements like that, what isn't complete bs? Do the same through med school, too, except for the standardized tests.

 

[QofQuimica]

Wow. With blanket statements like that, what isn't complete bs? Do the same through med school, too, except for the standardized tests.

Feeling flowery and poetic as I do at the moment, I would like to interrupt this thread to say Octodoc, you rock. Your posts crack me up.

 

[nrddct]

The girl that the OP talked about is a fool, plain and simple. When you get a grade in a class, there isn't a essay attached to it where you explain how you got it and how hard you studied and how you didn't cheat at all. It's just a letter on a piece of paper that AMCAS is going to convert into a number one day. I'd do what you have to to make sure the number is a high one (within reason of course). The guy or girl who gets a C but did it the "noble" way should make sure to explain that in his PS, I'm sure med schools will totally understand

Agreed,

True story, I was in a post bacc program last year where we were guaranteed entry to the forthcoming years class if we made a >3.5. There were 25 students in my program for 10ish spots. Even before the semester started, I heard rumors that some students had access to old tests. Whatever, I thought, as long as I studied hard and knew all the information, I should do fine. WRONG. 20/20 hindsight I learned that students who had old tests knew what to focus on for test and did well studying 1/3 less time as me. Did the adcom care which students have this "extra" advantage when it came to time to review their apps? More importantly did the adcoms care that I spent 10hrs everyday studying that year?

 

[Sondra]

most of the time it's just a good way to get a feel for the professor's test-making style and the types of questions that will be one it.

This is exactly how I feel. No matter how hard you have study, it sometimes just comes down to knowing how the prof likes to test. I often find that the first test that I have with a new prof is the hardest because you don't know what it will be like.

I don't feel like it is cheating myself. I do study the material. Most of us know that part of taking the MCAT is knowing how to take the test, not just knowing the material. You have to practice "test taking strategies."

 

[akinf]

I don't feel obliged to defend this, but getting old exams is wrong when not everyone can get them.

But more importantly, few things give me as much pleasure as smokin' the jokers who get the hookups with old exams. This is just my sadistic side talking.

If you are also a fan of academia as a means for retribution read the following story:

Last week was my physio final. The class was given the option of not taking the exam and taking the mean of 2 other exams as a final grade. Having aced those exams, I should have not even taken the exam. But I did. Why you may ask? Simply to blow up the curve for the rest of the stack.

So, for the minority of peeps here who think it's a bit unfair for others to get old exams, don't worry, I notched one on the score tab for us.

That's lame, not because what you did is annoying for other people, but you could have jeopardized your own grade. *shakes head*

 

[Dr. Pepper]

I don't think that it's wise to consider her decision "stupid."

It's simply unwise, and based on overly-stringent morals. However, I'm not so sure this is a moral decision.

Bottom line is this: As long as EVERYBODY had an opportunity to find past tests and the teacher did not explicitly state that old exams were off limit, then it's fine.

However, if any of these two conditions are unmet, then yes, getting old tests are immoral. That's not to say that people won't still use them to get a leg up, but in any case, I think it would be immoral.

It's up to you how far you want to go. I probably would have used the old tests as long as it was permitted, but it should be used as an addition to studying, not a replacement.

Whatever you use, make sure you know what the hell you are studying, because one time or another (esp. in medicine), it might just come up.

Play fair but play smart.
-Dr. P.

 

[TheOpsonizer]

That's lame, not because what you did is annoying for other people, but you could have jeopardized your own grade. *shakes head*

I guess I just like to live dangerously.

But it's not like I went in there with a rather *similar* copy of the exam in my head. That would be. . .

 

[OwnageMobile]

Waitwaitdon't tell me...

he'll make a (drumroll)...HORRIBLE DOCTORRR!!! won't he?

I think she needs to stop feeling and start thinking (thanks Jung Briggs-Myers!). Yes, as the dead horse takes another blow, unless it's specifically prohibited, I wouldn't call it cheating.

This strikes me as a matter of her not realizing a two things:

1) Does she really think she is going to remember all this stuff she "nobly" packed into her short-term memory? I don't know about you guys, but I had to go back over nearly all the details again for the MCAT.

2) It is a dog-eat-dog world. As bluntman put it, she needs to think about the "real world" (I'm 24 btw if you wan't to chastize me). Who you know can make a big difference in how things turn out for you. For those who are doing it machaveli style, they will have not only pleased the adcom gods with good grades, but also learned a bit on how to network and get things done. IMHO you are really shooting yourself in the foot by not being "resourceful." If you value "honor" above all this, I feel sorry for you and wish you luck in your ventures.

 

[dbhvt]

I think she needs to stop feeling and start thinking (thanks Jung Briggs-Myers!). Yes, as the dead horse takes another blow, unless it's specifically prohibited, I wouldn't call it cheating.

This strikes me as a matter of her not realizing a two things:

1) Does she really think she is going to remember all this stuff she "nobly" packed into her short-term memory? I don't know about you guys, but I had to go back over nearly all the details again for the MCAT.

2) It is a dog-eat-dog world. As bluntman put it, she needs to think about the "real world" (I'm 24 btw if you wan't to chastize me). Who you know can make a big difference in how things turn out for you. For those who are doing it machaveli style, they will have not only pleased the adcom gods with good grades, but also learned a bit on how to network and get things done. IMHO you are really shooting yourself in the foot by not being "resourceful." If you value "honor" above all this, I feel sorry for you and wish you luck in your ventures.

Sometimes you have to spill a little constitutional milk to save the american pie.

My grandmother is in her 80's and COMPLETELY out of touch with the real world.

Then again...

 

[MJB]

Taking Organic from a brand new, fresh out of school Prof has been a real treat this semester...

 

[notdeadyet]

Old exams are fair territory unless the professor explicitly expresses that they are off limits.

Excellent. The moral subjectivism floating around here was really starting to bother me.

Do whatever you like. Look over old exams, hit the books hard, fake an epileptic seizure and read a crib sheet from the underside of your desk. But please don't try to sooth your conscience with the self-serving survival-of-the-fittest or everyone's-doing-it nonsense. You're probably smarter than that.

If a professor doesn't forbid looking over old exams, they're a resource that's out there. If a professor does forbid them, reviewing them is no different than looking at someone elses paper. It's just plain cheating.

btw, I used to teach at a community college and the theory floating around here that it's my responsibility to keep all tests and try to ensure others don't use them is nonsense. Frankly, I prefer to trust my students.

 

[Bluntman]

Last week was my physio final. The class was given the option of not taking the exam and taking the mean of 2 other exams as a final grade. Having aced those exams, I should have not even taken the exam. But I did. Why you may ask? Simply to blow up the curve for the rest of the stack.

So, for the minority of peeps here who think it's a bit unfair for others to get old exams, don't worry, I notched one on the score tab for us.

^^Douche. That's just about the most pathetic premed comment I've heard...don't you have an AED meeting you should be at right now?

 

[tulane06]

I don't feel obliged to defend this, but getting old exams is wrong when not everyone can get them.

But more importantly, few things give me as much pleasure as smokin' the jokers who get the hookups with old exams. This is just my sadistic side talking.

If you are also a fan of academia as a means for retribution read the following story:

Last week was my physio final. The class was given the option of not taking the exam and taking the mean of 2 other exams as a final grade. Having aced those exams, I should have not even taken the exam. But I did. Why you may ask? Simply to blow up the curve for the rest of the stack.

So, for the minority of peeps here who think it's a bit unfair for others to get old exams, don't worry, I notched one on the score tab for us.

It's OK for you to work hard for success, but why would you try to f*ck your fellow classmates over like that? You must be a misanthrope or something.

 

[OSUdoc08]

So my friend is your "noble" pre-med or whatever you may call it. And she is doing so bad in all her pre-reqs even though she studies her ass off. The big difference why the kids do well in these classes is whether or not you have old tests/old quizzes/old hws etc, and I offered them to her, and she's like no thanks I want to do this on my own effort. Wtf? Are you ******ed? It isn't cheating or anything, it's being smart about the professor's laziness, and using it to your advantage. There's nothing wrong about that. Now that I think about it, she pisses me off because she's one of those do-good, I am right everyone else is wrong, superconservative catholic girls (but not that there's anything wrong with that ).


Discuss.

We COMMONLY use these materials in medical school for just about every exam.

 

[Med Addict]

Not everyone has access to practice material because they may not have the financial resources, so when I have the money to pay for practice MCAT material, should I forgo the opportunity because other people may need to pay for rent, but I can afford to pay for books, courses, practive tests. In my view, getting older exams is the same deal, but instead of money as the resource for getting the test, its friends.

 

[gregMD]

Last week was my physio final. The class was given the option of not taking the exam and taking the mean of 2 other exams as a final grade. Having aced those exams, I should have not even taken the exam. But I did. Why you may ask? Simply to blow up the curve for the rest of the stack.

So, for the minority of peeps here who think it's a bit unfair for others to get old exams, don't worry, I notched one on the score tab for us.

you are a GIANT C_U_N_T. simple as that.

 

[NapeSpikes]

But more importantly, few things give me as much pleasure as smokin' the jokers who get the hookups with old exams. This is just my sadistic side talking...

I really hope you have more pleasures in life than that.

 

[CTSballer11]

I really hope you have more pleasures in life than that.

He really needs to get laid.

 

[NapeSpikes]

He really needs to get laid.

Exactly. There are much more pleasurable outlets for one's sadistic side.

 

[TheOpsonizer]

Hmmm. I guess no one approves of that little anecdote (maybe rightfully so);
but I really don't think that it was wrong (given that the sadistic pleasure part be taken as a joke, which it was). I mean I was a student in the class and had a right to take the test. I even see it as a more legitimate way to compete than to obtain (although "not explicity stated"), nonetheless, unfair study materials. I still had to work hard as hard as everyone else taking the test, whereas the guy who put the old chem exam in his TI600,000,000 screwed everyone over and smoked down the night before the test.

 

[Bluntman]

Hmmm. I guess no one approves of that little anecdote (maybe rightfully so);
but I really don't think that it was wrong (given that the sadistic pleasure part be taken as a joke, which it was). I mean I was a student in the class and had a right to take the test. I even see it as a more legitimate way to compete than to obtain (although "not explicity stated"), nonetheless, unfair study materials. I still had to work hard as hard as everyone else taking the test, whereas the guy who put the old chem exam in his TI600,000,000 screwed everyone over and smoked down the night before the test.

Bro, you already had an A in the class, so you weren't competing for anything. Your classmates, on the other hand, were busting their asses to get an A on the test. The only result of your hard work is screwing your peers over. I won't be the last to tell you...that's not "hard work" at all, it's just you being an dingus.

Not to mention you're confusing the issue of "using old study materials" with "you being a prick and taking the test to screw your classmates". Your logic is fvcked.

Seriously, this opson kid is off the deep end of a little place the rest of us call "normalcy".

 

[TheOpsonizer]

I disagree that I had nothing to compete for, and also that that fact is even pertinent.

If I had not taken the exam, the grades of the rest of the class would be inflated due to the lower curve. One might even say that it was my academic duty to preserve the integrity of the curve.

And really, it's not even an issue because I didn't prevent anyone from doing as well as they could have on the exam. I merely made their scores more accurate and aided the professor in combatting grade inflation.

 

[mchou]

I disagree that I had nothing to compete for, and also that that fact is even pertinent.

If I had not taken the exam, the grades of the rest of the class would be inflated due to the lower curve. One might even say that it was my academic duty to preserve the integrity of the curve.

And really, it's not even an issue because I didn't prevent anyone from doing as well as they could have on the exam. I merely made their scores more accurate and aided the professor in combatting grade inflation.

While it's true that you didn't affect another kid's numerical score since that in itself is an independent achievement, your assumption that your excellent score made other scores more accurate is rather twisted. Accurate? In what sense? Because the cosmos must compare itself to you and how you scored?

Helping the professor out... with grade inflation... so you serve the masses by lowering their grades and chances at achieving their other goals which are dependent upon their GPA? ...

How kind of you.

 

[Bluntman]

I disagree that I had nothing to compete for, and also that that fact is even pertinent.

If I had not taken the exam, the grades of the rest of the class would be inflated due to the lower curve. One might even say that it was my academic duty to preserve the integrity of the curve.

And really, it's not even an issue because I didn't prevent anyone from doing as well as they could have on the exam. I merely made their scores more accurate and aided the professor in combatting grade inflation.

The bolded lines are priceless. If they have a Student Psych Services at your school, I suggest you use it.

 

[QofQuimica]

Ok, poll time. Who here thinks TheOpsonizer is a troll? Reply and add yourself.

Yes: QofQuimica

No:

 

[mchou]

Ok, poll time. Who here thinks TheOpsonizer is a troll? Reply and add yourself.

Yes: QofQuimica, mchou

No:

 

[TheOpsonizer]

And this means that you think the anecdote is a lie?

 

[Bluntman]

Ok, poll time. Who here thinks TheOpsonizer is a troll? Reply and add yourself.

Yes: QofQuimica, mchou, Bluntman

No:

 

[gregMD]

One might even say that it was my academic duty to preserve the integrity of the curve.

Your "Academic Duty"? That is one of the most laughable things i've ever read on SDN. Who talks like that - let alone thinks like that? What is wrong with you?????


jesus christ!!.......

 

[gregMD]

And this means that you think the anecdote is a lie?

it means they think you're a joke

 

[CTSballer11]

The guy is not a troll, just a loser.

 

[Bluntman]

The guy is not a troll, just a loser.

lol...serious...that's even more pathetic!

 

[notdeadyet]

Ok, poll time. Who here thinks TheOpsonizer is a troll? Reply and add yourself.

Yes: QofQuimica, mchou, Bluntman, notdeadyet

No:

 

[notdeadyet]

One might even say that it was my academic duty to preserve the integrity of the curve.

...I merely made their scores more accurate and aided the professor in combatting grade inflation.

You'll make someone a wonderful toady someday, Oppy...

 

[MediMama23]

The guy is not a troll, just a loser.

I actually think the two are one in the same.

 

[QofQuimica]

I actually think the two are one in the same.

I'm calling BS. No gunner would be fool enough to risk his sure-thing A and take a final that he didn't have to take.

 

[masterMood]

wow...did I really elicit this many responses?
(nice one masterMood)at this rate, i might surpass the poop thread!

Yeah the thing is that the professor is so lazy that all he does is change the letters on the exams, but keeps everything else the same (i.e. the wording). So if you put down everything into the calculator, there is no need to study for these quizzes (especially how none of this stuff seems to be on the mcat).

He knows they are out there, but because he is tenured, he really doesn't give a rat's ass about people using old exams/quizzes (it is something that is unmentionable however. last year, some girl asked him if she could use old exams, and the professor just shot her down).

i think that as long as the professor and school doesn't specify anything about old tests and old quizzes you're 100 percent fine. However, if they say to not use old exams and quizzes [from other people], i probably still would, but be more cautious about it.

but if the college ever intervened in a case where old tests/quizzes were being used, could they really argue that it is a form of cheating? Afterall, the government has power to say that a minor can be tried as an adult, and apparently this is constitutional.

 

[Anastasis]

Ok, poll time. Who here thinks TheOpsonizer is a troll? Reply and add yourself.

Yes: QofQuimica, mchou, Bluntman, notdeadyet, Anastasis

No:

 

[Bluntman]

btw...great idea with the poll, Q!

 

[MediMama23]

Ok, poll time. Who here thinks TheOpsonizer is a troll? Reply and add yourself.

Yes: QofQuimica, mchou, Bluntman, notdeadyet, Anastasis, MediMama23

No:

 

[OctoDoc]

I disagree that I had nothing to compete for, and also that that fact is even pertinent.

If I had not taken the exam, the grades of the rest of the class would be inflated due to the lower curve. One might even say that it was my academic duty to preserve the integrity of the curve.

And really, it's not even an issue because I didn't prevent anyone from doing as well as they could have on the exam. I merely made their scores more accurate and aided the professor in combatting grade inflation.

You are backpedalling. If this was really any of your concern, you would have said so in the first place. Sorry, no love.



Ok, poll time. Who here thinks TheOpsonizer is a troll? Reply and add yourself.

Yes: QofQuimica, mchou, Bluntman, notdeadyet, Anastasis, MediMama23, OctoDoc

No: