Why are so many premeds stupid?

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masterMood

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So my friend is your "noble" pre-med or whatever you may call it. And she is doing so bad in all her pre-reqs even though she studies her ass off. The big difference why the kids do well in these classes is whether or not you have old tests/old quizzes/old hws etc, and I offered them to her, and she's like no thanks I want to do this on my own effort. Wtf? Are you ******ed? It isn't cheating or anything, it's being smart about the professor's laziness, and using it to your advantage. There's nothing wrong about that. Now that I think about it, she pisses me off because she's one of those do-good, I am right everyone else is wrong, superconservative catholic girls (but not that there's anything wrong with that :smuggrin: ).


Discuss.

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masterMood said:
So my friend is your "noble" pre-med or whatever you may call it. And she is doing so bad in all her pre-reqs even though she studies her ass off. The big difference why the kids do well in these classes is whether or not you have old tests/old quizzes/old hws etc, and I offered them to her, and she's like no thanks I want to do this on my own effort. Wtf? Are you ******ed? It isn't cheating or anything, it's being smart about the professor's laziness, and using it to your advantage. There's nothing wrong about that. Now that I think about it, she pisses me off because she's one of those do-good, I am right everyone else is wrong, superconservative catholic girls (but not that there's anything wrong with that :smuggrin: ).


Discuss.
Sorry, I'm with her on this one. And I am neither conservative nor catholic.
 
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yeah i am as straight of an arrow as any, but i take advantage of this phenomenon that is professor laziness. That being said, I still study my ass off. Do both. Study hard and take advantage of previous tests/quizzes. If you just cut corners and learn how to do the practice problems only, it will show up down the road. Trust me.
 
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masterMood said:
So my friend is your "noble" pre-med or whatever you may call it. And she is doing so bad in all her pre-reqs even though she studies her ass off. The big difference why the kids do well in these classes is whether or not you have old tests/old quizzes/old hws etc, and I offered them to her, and she's like no thanks I want to do this on my own effort. Wtf? Are you ******ed? It isn't cheating or anything, it's being smart about the professor's laziness, and using it to your advantage. There's nothing wrong about that. Now that I think about it, she pisses me off because she's one of those do-good, I am right everyone else is wrong, superconservative catholic girls (but not that there's anything wrong with that :smuggrin: ).


Discuss.

She probably feels you are trying to convey to her that she is incapable of doing it without some outside influence (your old stuff being that influence) and though it isnt cheating or anything I think the misconception is that somehow this will decrease her retention of the material and circumvent the learning process. Let her struggle if that is how she feels she needs to learn. I see this pretty often with other students in my classes, just like students who are borderline failing a class (i'll use Gen Bio1 for an example) and then refusing to be tutored when the professor asked me to be available for those students who need it.

Pride can be a scary thing.
 
according to my prof, same thing happened in canadian med schools
im really worried about my family physician too cuz he came from one of those

apparently, some profs are so lazy, they just randomly select MC questions from a ancient pool of questions
most of the med students were able to obtain past tests
at the end, they simply just memorize the questions and the answers
 
I think she's got more sense than you give her credit for... all those "old test/quiz" users are going to be @$$-ed out when MCAT time comes around. That's too bad though if she's a study freak and still doing bad :confused:
 
I agree with the OP on this one. Many times it's not even about professor laziness, I've seen very few tests that repeat questions from old tests. But most of the time it's just a good way to get a feel for the professor's test-making style and the types of questions that will be one it. I've had professors tell us that we're responsible for ALL the material in the book, even material that we haven't gone over in class. But when I looked at the old tests, it only covered what we went over in class, so I didn't bother studying the rest of the material in the book. And it defintiely saved a lot of time and helped me focus on what was important, since the professor wound up only testing us on what we covered, just like in the past.

It's not about proving to yourself that you can do it on your own. It's stupid to refuse good help or advice. Maybe in the end you might have a little more self-satisfaction if you didn't use the old tests, but if you don't get into med school, then is that still gonna keep you warm at night? I definitely took all the help I could get if it meant doing better in the class and having a better shot at getting into school.

EDIT: and as far as "studying your ass off" goes, I've definitely seen people do worse than me after studying 10x more than me. It's not that I'm really smart, I DO have to study if I expect to do well. But there IS such a thing as too much studying. If you start a week before and study every day (in undergrad at least), you can burn yourself out.
 
One of my professors this semester actually provides old tests so that we could see what kind of questions he asked in the past (not that it makes much difference as his tests are fricking hard...) But I don't like the idea of using old tests and quizzes from other sources. It's not that I think it's cheating, but since not everyone has access to them, it seems unfair...
 
Saluki said:
One of my professors this semester actually provides old tests so that we could see what kind of questions he asked in the past (not that it makes much difference as his tests are fricking hard...) But I don't like the idea of using old tests and quizzes from other sources. It's not that I think it's cheating, but since not everyone has access to them, it seems unfair...
Oh yeah, that's another thing. From what I said earlier, most of the time the old tests were given to us by the professors, they're usually pretty good about that because they want us to know what to expect. If the professor doesn't give it directly to us on the class website, there is a website for my major that some kids started that has word for the whole curriculum. They bothered the professors until they gave them old tests and then post in on this site, it's a pretty good resource. Only a few times have I gotten an old test from another student who took the class rather than from the professor, where it wasn't available to everyone. I still don't regret it though.
 
Saluki said:
One of my professors this semester actually provides old tests so that we could see what kind of questions he asked in the past (not that it makes much difference as his tests are fricking hard...) But I don't like the idea of using old tests and quizzes from other sources. It's not that I think it's cheating, but since not everyone has access to them, it seems unfair...

There's a difference between seeing old tests (which profs sometimes provide as study materials, in my experience) and old lab reports/homework assignments. Labs don't change from year to year and plagiarism is too easy. Although in one of my classes, the prof actually used the identical test as last semester's class had for one of her midterms - needless to say, those who had access to it did much better than those who did not.

You should be able to do OK without old tests etc. If you can't, then the professor's testing strategy is so idiosyncratic as to be unfair in and of itself.
 
MAC12383 said:
I agree with the OP on this one. Many times it's not even about professor laziness, I've seen very few tests that repeat questions from old tests.

My Gen Chem Professor gives us practice multiple choice from old tests as a review, and then from that pool of say 50 questions it is almost assured he will take 10-15 to put on the mc section of the the test (made up of 25 questions). Some students who have figured this out have gone from getting 65's on tests to 80's just by memorizing questions...and i cannot say i am immune to jumping on an answer that i happen to remeber to save me time while taking the test.
 
I'll give my opinion as to why premeds are so "stupid," with no regard for the old tests and quizzes issue. Medicine isn't anymore valuing intelligence; it's a new trend. The overall attitude in this country has gone, in about 100 years, from "we're free, we're capitalist, and the-smart-and-talented-are-rewarded-for-being-so" to "everyone should have a chance to be what they want to be...regardless of their ability to do it. Just so long as they're compassionate about it. Well-being of society notwithstanding, let's fill out med schools with people of mediocre intelligence but a large heart and a BIG SMILE!!"

Pre-meds are stupid because the smart ones are being pushed away from medicine. The way I see it, intelligence and knowledge are the obvious important attributes for any physician to have.

Making a diagnosis and mapping out a potential procedure/excision/treatment-plan is LARGELY an intellectual matter. A nice guy who cares a lot can only go so far, and this country is going to learn that the hard way.
 
H_Caulfield said:
I'll give my opinion as to why premeds are so "stupid," with no regard for the old tests and quizzes issue. Medicine isn't anymore valuing intelligence; it's a new trend. The overall attitude in this country has gone, in about 100 years, from "we're free, we're capitalist, and the-smart-and-talented-are-rewarded-for-being-so" to "everyone should have a chance to be what they want to be...regardless of their ability to do it. Just so long as they're compassionate about it. Well-being of society notwithstanding, let's fill out med schools with people of mediocre intelligence but a large heart and a BIG SMILE!!"

Pre-meds are stupid because the smart ones are being pushed away from medicine. The way I see it, intelligence and knowledge are the obvious important attributes for any physician to have.

Making a diagnosis and mapping out a potential procedure/excision/treatment-plan is LARGELY an intellectual matter. A nice guy who cares a lot can only go so far, and this country is going to learn that the hard way.

i agree wholeheartedly, but on that same train of thought, what are those smart people gravitating toward since they are moving away from medicine?
 
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masterMood said:
So my friend is your "noble" pre-med or whatever you may call it. And she is doing so bad in all her pre-reqs even though she studies her ass off. The big difference why the kids do well in these classes is whether or not you have old tests/old quizzes/old hws etc, and I offered them to her, and she's like no thanks I want to do this on my own effort. Wtf? Are you ******ed? It isn't cheating or anything, it's being smart about the professor's laziness, and using it to your advantage. There's nothing wrong about that. Now that I think about it, she pisses me off because she's one of those do-good, I am right everyone else is wrong, superconservative catholic girls (but not that there's anything wrong with that :smuggrin: ).


Discuss.

that reminds me of a girl I know, she is also a catholic conservative. Some people are incredibly naive and that is fine with me. :thumbup:
 
Hopeful_Doc said:
i agree wholeheartedly, but on that same train of thought, what are those smart people gravitating toward since they are moving away from medicine?

Law, finance, IB, that would be my guess.
 
I am also a girl and a catholic conservative so I guess my opinion really doesn't matter. So far my grades have been excellent and I have had the opportunity to take advantage of certain situations but I chose not to. I just have strong morals and I love the satisfaction that comes when I study my butt off to learn something and do great on an exam. That's just me. I want to know I can do it on my own and I am very competitive. I'm sure she still appreciated your gesture. You shouldn't let it get to you. It is her life.
 
I agree with the OP on several points:

1. Pre-meds are naive idiots, not only about studying, but also about their outlook on medicine (too many issues that will irritate me if I mention them.)

2. There is nothing wrong with using old exams ESPECIALLY because it helps you hone in on what the prof is trying to teach you and what his/her take home message is.

3. If this girl wants to "do it on her own" why doesn't she just do all the research on her own: population studies, lab results, etc., and not use text books :rolleyes: THAT is doing it on her own. :laugh:

4. I am semi-conservative but I have a real problem with holier-than-thous all over the world in the sense that their attitudes cancel out their "good deeds."

I am reminded of a short Islamic story:

There is a saint knelt down in prayer. When a sinner approaches the premise, he is envious of the good man and is afraid to kneel in prayer next to him because his shadow might cast darkness on the saint. The saint in turn rebukes the sinner and is too proud to offer him a seat. At that moment God erases both men's deeds so they are now equal: the saint punished for his pride and the sinner rewarded for his humbleness.
 
Nutmeg1621 said:
I am also a girl and a catholic conservative so I guess my opinion really doesn't matter. So far my grades have been excellent and I have had the opportunity to take advantage of certain situations but I chose not to. I just have strong morals and I love the satisfaction that comes when I study my butt off to learn something and do great on an exam. That's just me. I want to know I can do it on my own and I am very competitive. I'm sure she still appreciated your gesture. You shouldn't let it get to you. It is her life.

Note the bold. You do great. She apparently doesn't do so hot. It's only going to hurt her in the end if she can't cough up the grades. But I do appreciate her effort.

We didn't have those types of professors at my school; you'd have to take the class and fail it to get old exams :laugh: . Or know someone who took the class before you. Other than that, it was pure brains and lots of time in office hours and studying. If something isn't working for you, you've got to keep changing your strategy until it does. I think she's letting her pride get in the way, and she may end up suffering for it if those grades aren't good.
 
FrogE7 said:
I am reminded of a short story Islamic story:

There is a saint knelt down in prayer. When a sinner approaches the premise, he is envious of the good man and is afraid to kneel in prayer next to him because his shadow might cast darkness on the saint. The saint in turn rebukes the sinner and is too proud to offer him a seat. At that moment God erases both men's deeds so they are now equal: the saint punished for his pride and the sinner rewarded for his humbleness.

Great story! I love parallels in religion, so here's the parable that jumped into my head when I read it.

"Two men went up into the temple to pray;
one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector.

The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this:
‘God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.’

But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying,
‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."


errrrrr . . . Luke 18:9-14

Humility is valued everywhere it seems.


(edit: this was my 500th post! I wonder if that's some kind of sign . . . )
 
masterMood said:
Now that I think about it, she pisses me off because she's one of those do-good, I am right everyone else is wrong, superconservative catholic girls (but not that there's anything wrong with that :smuggrin: ).

Work on this. You'll thank me later.
 
H_Caulfield said:
I'll give my opinion as to why premeds are so "stupid," with no regard for the old tests and quizzes issue. Medicine isn't anymore valuing intelligence; it's a new trend. The overall attitude in this country has gone, in about 100 years, from "we're free, we're capitalist, and the-smart-and-talented-are-rewarded-for-being-so" to "everyone should have a chance to be what they want to be...regardless of their ability to do it. Just so long as they're compassionate about it. Well-being of society notwithstanding, let's fill out med schools with people of mediocre intelligence but a large heart and a BIG SMILE!!"

Pre-meds are stupid because the smart ones are being pushed away from medicine. The way I see it, intelligence and knowledge are the obvious important attributes for any physician to have.

Making a diagnosis and mapping out a potential procedure/excision/treatment-plan is LARGELY an intellectual matter. A nice guy who cares a lot can only go so far, and this country is going to learn that the hard way.

I get what you're saying, and agree to some extent. But why do compassion/caring and intelligence have to be mutually exclusive? I'd like to think that a physician should have both.
 
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Why are so many premeds stupid?

Simple. It’s a whole lot easier to be pre-med than it is to be med.
 
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browniegirl86 said:
I get what you're saying, and agree to some extent. But why do compassion/caring and intelligence have to be mutually exclusive? I'd like to think that a physician should have both.

Of course they're not, and of course they should. But there aren't many people who are brilliant, compassionate, AND want to go into medicine. To fill the needs of our health care system, we pretty much require "dumb" (obviously not that dumb) people who are compassionate, and brilliant people who suck as human beings. I'm sure we all know doctors, medical students, and pre-meds of all three categories.

Back to the point at hand, if the teacher gives you old exams, you are a fool not to use them. If they are old exams that you are uniquely obtaining, that is cheating in my opinion. I'm sure your school has an honor code about not receiving any outside information on tests, and I'm sure that old tests that aren't supposed to be available are definitely unauthorized outside information. Cheat at your own risk.
 
browniegirl86 said:
I get what you're saying, and agree to some extent. But why do compassion/caring and intelligence have to be mutually exclusive? I'd like to think that a physician should have both.


I think on this point it really depends on into which field of medicine someone is going. I don't think a surgeon needs to have much compassion, as they don't deal with patients directly very often. An exception would be in consultations, etc... they should obviously be compassionate enough to make the patient feel comfortable, but I think thats basically all thats necessary. Pride can be just as good if not a better motivator for someone to do their best as compassion or empathy can.

Primary care would be a little bit different. Here, the docs should be personal and sensitive to the needs of a family. However, I still think that intellectual capacity play a bigger role than a big heart. I want a doctor thats a great doctor more than I want a doctor that really cares about me. Sure, if he cares about me thats an added bonus, and I'd rather he not be a dickhead, but I still care more that he's a good doctor and able to critically analyze my situation.

I agree that this is becoming a huge problem in this country. I hate the "everybody deserves everything" mentality. It's just plain stupid. I'm not saying that things should be unfair, but I will say that there are a lot of people that shouldn't be doctors. A lot of the people that I've met that have gotten into medschool should never be doctors.

\begin{rant}
Where are the good candidates going? Probably where the other guy said... or they're just using their brains on their own time. I think another problem is that not as many great minds are being created anymore, as the school system here is ridiculous and most students I've met are lazy as hell. I can't figure out why most people are in college other than that its the next thing after highschool. They don't want to learn the material they take classes for, they don't go to classes, and even most good students don't learn much outside of their textbooks or lectures. Schools here seem to have taken a shift to teaching to the lowest common denominator in the class. If a class is filled with *******es, the entire class is dumbed down so that people won't have to chose between working hard or failing. It goes back to the "everyone deserves a chance" idea. Guess what: everyone doesn't deserve a chance at being a nuclear physicist either, unless you have the brains or a work ethic that makes up for it. Someone needs to get the balls to step up to some of these people and say "I'm sorry, but you're just not cut out to be digging around in someone's brain." I think the laziness seen pretty much everywhere in this country is going to be our downfall.

That being said, I personally think I'm pretty compassionate, at least when the case warrants a big heart and warm speech. I probably won't be compassionate to your needs if you're telling me how hard something is and you don't like studying on friday night. I'm not going to be compassionate to you if you're blaming someone else for your problems, or if you're complaining about how the mean medical schools won't let you in because you didn't work hard enough in college. If you have cancer and you're just finding out, my heart goes out to you and I'll do everything I can to help you out. If you live in a dirt poor area and you're making an effort to help yourself but just can't, again, I'll do whatever I can. Life still isn't going to be fair, but I'll try to help. However, no matter what laws or guidelines we put into place, life is never going to be fair, and mother nature isn't fair when dividing up personal attributes. It isn't somebody's fault, sometimes things just suck and there's nothing you can do about it. Don't make society pay for it.
\end{rant}
 
masterMood said:
So my friend is your "noble" pre-med or whatever you may call it. And she is doing so bad in all her pre-reqs even though she studies her ass off. The big difference why the kids do well in these classes is whether or not you have old tests/old quizzes/old hws etc, and I offered them to her, and she's like no thanks I want to do this on my own effort. Wtf? Are you ******ed? It isn't cheating or anything, it's being smart about the professor's laziness, and using it to your advantage. There's nothing wrong about that. Now that I think about it, she pisses me off because she's one of those do-good, I am right everyone else is wrong, superconservative catholic girls (but not that there's anything wrong with that :smuggrin: ).


Discuss.
I'm with you dude. Sounds like she needs some serious dick if you ask me.

On a side note...I had to take a make-up final for a class since I was out of town for a conference. The prof went looking through her stuff to find a different version of the exam, just in case I had been sneaky and talked to my buddies about the exam. Little did she know...wait for it...that she gave me the exact fvcking version that was on her own website as a practice test!!! Priceless!
 
I keep reading that people are "Catholic conservative." This only matters if you believe the action is cheating. I was raised Catholic (until I was 23), remain a conservative and am married to a pastor. For whatever that's worth...I do not believe that having access to past exams, hw, etc is cheating. Plagarism is cheating. But, even if the questions on the exams are not the same (which they are most likely not to be) a student can still get an idea about the way a prof tests the material.

IMHO, turning down the offer is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

A smart student utilizes resources available to them. If the prof had a tutoring session would the student say "no, I want to do this on my own"? Of course not. They would be stupid not to use the resources available to them.
 
TypeA said:
I keep reading that people are "Catholic conservative." This only matters if you believe the action is cheating. I was raised Catholic (until I was 23), remain a conservative and am married to a pastor. For whatever that's worth...I do not believe that having access to past exams, hw, etc is cheating. Plagarism is cheating. But, even if the questions on the exams are not the same (which they are most likely not to be) a student can still get an idea about the way a prof tests the material.

IMHO, turning down the offer is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

A smart student utilizes resources available to them. If the prof had a tutoring session would the student say "no, I want to do this on my own"? Of course not. They would be stupid not to use the resources available to them.

Agreed. I don't think this is a religious/moral issue. If the information is pulicly available, it is just stupidity on your own part not to use it. I would only think this was "cheating" if the professor keeps his exams under lock-and-key and/or makes statements that indicate it is improper to use old exams to study.
 
ND2005 said:
Agreed. I don't think this is a religious/moral issue. If the information is pulicly available, it is just stupidity on your own part not to use it. I would only think this was "cheating" if the professor keeps his exams under lock-and-key and/or makes statements that indicate it is improper to use old exams to study.
I knew a kid who put the content from an old exam on his one page of notes that the class was allowed to bring to the test (which ended up being very similar to this old one). The prof went around and randomly checked on people, and went ape **** when he saw this. The fiasco went to the judiciary committtee, who promptly dismissed the case (and probably laughed their asses off at the stupidity of the prof as well). :laugh:
 
I think this is kind of a case-by-case basis. Most professors know they have old exams floating out there and plan accordingly. Most of my professors actually put up examples of old tests for students to study off of.

Another professor of mine knows his old tests are out there and lets the class know that, but tries to discredit them. To a point, he is right. The old tests don't really help that much, other than to get a feel for what that particular professor's style is. You'll still need to learn the material, and you'll still need to be able to answer advanced questions that weren't on the old tests. I've never gone looking for old tests for a class, but in situations where most of the class has the material I won't turn that down either. They're a good study aid, but not much more than that.

I will say that the issue becomes a little bit different with certain tests, for example, the ACS finals given nationwide for all the chemistry classes. Getting a copy of one of these should get a student expelled, plain and simple. This isn't the same as having old material to study off of, because the tests aren't changed from year to year (unless they've changed this). Also, I think its different to get a copy of a MC test than it is to get a copy of a more coprehensive test. Professors that use a lot of MC tend to re-use old questions (I personally dislike this practice), and old tests give students significant advantages over those that don't have this material. I won't use tests like this to study off of, simply because I don't feel right doing so. I'll learn the material my own way and do just as well (often better, because when people memorize questions/answers, they tend to get thrown off when the professor changes small things in the question).
 
austinap said:
Another professor of mine knows his old tests are out there and lets the class know that, but tries to discredit them. To a point, he is right. The old tests don't really help that much, other than to get a feel for what that particular professor's style is. You'll still need to learn the material, and you'll still need to be able to answer advanced questions that weren't on the old tests. I've never gone looking for old tests for a class, but in situations where most of the class has the material I won't turn that down either. They're a good study aid, but not much more than that.

I actually really like old tests. Much like taking practice MCAT exams, they are very good to use as an indicator of where you are in your preparations.

If a class has old exams available, I like to take one of those exams a couple of days before the actual test, under fairly strict conditions -- if I do well it's a confidence booster; if I struggle it's a wake-up call and I still have time to prepare better.
 
ND2005 said:
I actually really like old tests. Much like taking practice MCAT exams, they are very good to use as an indicator of where you are in your preparations.

If a class has old exams available, I like to take one of those exams a couple of days before the actual test, under fairly strict conditions -- if I do well it's a confidence booster; if I struggle it's a wake-up call and I still have time to prepare better.

Agreed: so is this chick not going to do old AAMC exams when and if she studies for the MCATs!? :eek:

Has any one even heard of someone NOT using practice Kaplan, Princeton, etc etc exams when studying for the MCATs?!!!
 
FrogE7 said:
Agreed: so is this chick not going to do old AAMC exams when and if she studies for the MCATs!? :eek:

Has any one even heard of someone NOT using practice Kaplan, Princeton, etc etc exams when studying for the MCATs?!!!

Well played.

How does she view that?
 
FrogE7 said:
Agreed: so is this chick not going to do old AAMC exams when and if she studies for the MCATs!? :eek:

Has any one even heard of someone NOT using practice Kaplan, Princeton, etc etc exams when studying for the MCATs?!!!

Not the same thing. Those AAMC pratice tests are available to everyone, and I'm sure this girl would use the old tests if they were provided by the professor. But to use material that's passed between students and not available to everyone is a moral issue for some people. I'm not sure where I stand on it, but I respect them for drawing the line where they feel is right.
 
masterMood said:
The big difference why the kids do well in these classes is whether or not you have old tests/old quizzes/old hws etc, and I offered them to her, and she's like no thanks I want to do this on my own effort. Wtf? Are you ******ed? It isn't cheating or anything, it's being smart about the professor's laziness, and using it to your advantage. There's nothing wrong about that.

The old tests and quizes are great study guides. I think it is very important to become familiar with a the types of questions you will be encountering on a test.

That whole "I want to do this on my own" stuff is the most ******ed part. I have several friends who dropped out, and it was because they refused any outside help. That attitude will get you nowhere. Sorry to hear about your friend. She could use a dose of humility.
 
USING OLD TESTS IS FORMALLY CHEATING... unless you have the professors permission or the exams were released. They are his/her property. I studied my ass off for every exam and never cheated... though many of my friends did. If you dont think it's wrong would you willing tell your professor you have those old exams? What would he do if he found out? What would your school do?

In the end, your paying for an education. You're only harming yourslef and wasting your money by cheating. If you can't hack it now, you won't be able to hack it in med school. Would you want a doctor who only did well because they had the answers of the exam?
 
I was just going to make a post like this. Even if the tests are released, I don't think you should be crucifying this girl for not taking them. As I said, I'll use old tests conditionally, but dont rely on them for anything more than an extra study aid. In the end, this girl will probably have a better understanding of the material because she's actually putting in the time to learn it. She might not do so great in her classes now (shes a freshman, right?), but she'll probably out-perform her peers once she gets into upper level work. It'll be reflected in her MCAT scores as well. I wouldn't be so quick to term somebody a ******* for actually having a work ethic.
 
H_Caulfield said:
I'll give my opinion as to why premeds are so "stupid," with no regard for the old tests and quizzes issue. Medicine isn't anymore valuing intelligence; it's a new trend. The overall attitude in this country has gone, in about 100 years, from "we're free, we're capitalist, and the-smart-and-talented-are-rewarded-for-being-so" to "everyone should have a chance to be what they want to be...regardless of their ability to do it. Just so long as they're compassionate about it. Well-being of society notwithstanding, let's fill out med schools with people of mediocre intelligence but a large heart and a BIG SMILE!!"

Pre-meds are stupid because the smart ones are being pushed away from medicine. The way I see it, intelligence and knowledge are the obvious important attributes for any physician to have.

Making a diagnosis and mapping out a potential procedure/excision/treatment-plan is LARGELY an intellectual matter. A nice guy who cares a lot can only go so far, and this country is going to learn that the hard way.

Nope, making a diagnosis and treating the problem effectively are largely a social matter. Communication with the patient, the family, and colleagues gets you 90% of the information you need to know. Most of the time, both the problem and the "best practice" solution are readily apparent, and the amount of abstract intellectualizing is at a minimum.

Socially dysfunctional people do not belong in medical school, however book smart they may be.
 
Dov said:
USING OLD TESTS IS FORMALLY CHEATING... unless you have the professors permission or the exams were released. They are his/her property. I studied my ass off for every exam and never cheated... though many of my friends did. If you dont think it's wrong would you willing tell your professor you have those old exams? What would he do if he found out? What would your school do?

In the end, your paying for an education. You're only harming yourslef and wasting your money by cheating. If you can't hack it now, you won't be able to hack it in med school. Would you want a doctor who only did well because they had the answers of the exam?


I agree.
 
QuikClot said:
Socially dysfunctional people do not belong in medical school, however book smart they may be.

Intellectually dysfunctional people do not belong in medical school either, however warm hearted they may be.

Again, how much of one vs. the other a given doctor needs depends on what type of medicine he is practicing.
 
Dov said:
USING OLD TESTS IS FORMALLY CHEATING... unless you have the professors permission or the exams were released. They are his/her property. I studied my ass off for every exam and never cheated... though many of my friends did. If you dont think it's wrong would you willing tell your professor you have those old exams? What would he do if he found out? What would your school do?

In the end, your paying for an education. You're only harming yourslef and wasting your money by cheating. If you can't hack it now, you won't be able to hack it in med school. Would you want a doctor who only did well because they had the answers of the exam?

get off your high horse.
-mota
 
Dov said:
USING OLD TESTS IS FORMALLY CHEATING... unless you have the professors permission or the exams were released.
Umm...we are talking about cases where the prof gives permission or the exams were released. No need to flip out.

Dov said:
They are his/her property. I studied my ass off for every exam and never cheated... though many of my friends did. If you dont think it's wrong would you willing tell your professor you have those old exams? What would he do if he found out? What would your school do?
Sure, I'd be willing to tell my profs...like others have pointed out, old exams are a valuable studying tool that we're expected to use. The one case I know of where a prof flipped out was because he was embarrassed at his own laziness and stupidity. Our school sided with the student and agreed that the prof was a dip**** (see my post a bit ago).

Dov said:
In the end, your paying for an education. You're only harming yourslef and wasting your money by cheating. If you can't hack it now, you won't be able to hack it in med school. Would you want a doctor who only did well because they had the answers of the exam?
Hahaha...why do people always start with the whole bad doctor guilt trip line? Talk to me in ten years and I'll tell you all about how using old test material started me on a downward trend that ruined my career. Right.
 
Dov said:
USING OLD TESTS IS FORMALLY CHEATING... unless you have the professors permission or the exams were released. They are his/her property. I studied my ass off for every exam and never cheated... though many of my friends did. If you dont think it's wrong would you willing tell your professor you have those old exams? What would he do if he found out? What would your school do?

In the end, your paying for an education. You're only harming yourslef and wasting your money by cheating. If you can't hack it now, you won't be able to hack it in med school. Would you want a doctor who only did well because they had the answers of the exam?

Using old tests is formally cheating if the professor bothers to put the exact same questions from old exams on "new" tests. Knowing that old tests are in the possession of former students, whose fault is that?

If the professor hands you your test back, it is your property, and you are free to do with it what you please. It's not a copyrighted, trademarked document; it's information on a piece of paper. I've had professors who would let you look at your exam and then take it right back; then it's his/her property. If a professor is so afraid of tests circulating, s/he has a right to do the same, or compensate by creating an exam with completely different questions on it so that a student's studying/memorizing them would be "futile." If s/he refuses to do that, then that is his/her own fault.

At least, that's how I look at it. I don't follow rules that don't exist or aren't stated.
 
Bluntman said:
Hahaha...why do people always start with the whole bad doctor guilt trip line? Talk to me in ten years and I'll tell you all about how using old test material started me on a downward trend that ruined my career. Right.

We need to make an SDN version of this:

20060405bingo.png


"you're going to be a bad doctor" would definitely be on it.
 
ND2005 said:
We need to make an SDN version of this: {pic}

"you're going to be a bad doctor" would definitely be on it.

Hahaha...priceless! :thumbup: :laugh:
 
Speaking from the other side, I always made new quizzes every semester for exactly this reason. I knew that my old quizzes were floating around anecdotally. Plus, I spent a year attending the pre-med club meetings, and I know that the pre-med club at my university collects old quizzes and tests for their members to use. So if I reused a question, I'd change it so that memorizing wouldn't help (such as by changing the numbers in a calculation). In fact, I'd even give each of my two sections different questions so that the second class couldn't see the first class's questions and get an advantage that way. But after I gave those quizzes to the students, they belonged to them. I don't agree that it's wrong to look at old quizzes and tests, assuming that the instructor released them to the students. (Obviously it is wrong to steal a quiz that the instructor wants to collect back.) But I always assumed that the students WOULD look at the old quizzes, and I acted accordingly.
 
H_caulfield said:
Making a diagnosis and mapping out a potential procedure/excision/treatment-plan is LARGELY an intellectual matter

Wait. You seriously thnk that medicine is an intellectual field?

WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Four to one says you'll become one of the drones by MSII.

By the way, this is coming from an ex-intellectual.
 
Dov said:
In the end, your paying for an education. You're only harming yourslef and wasting your money by cheating. If you can't hack it now, you won't be able to hack it in med school. Would you want a doctor who only did well because they had the answers of the exam?
Ok, I'm all about gettin my learn on, but most of my doctors are halfway ******ed. I'm talking 21x3 (and that's not just keeping score on my headboard). Of course I want them to cheat. I don't trust these people! At the very least I want them to know where to find the right f•cking answer or who to ask in case they don't know something...
 
A few questions.

Were these old tests available to everyone in the class?

Did the professor specifically state you can use my old tests as a study guide but it is your own responsibililty to find them?

Did the professor offer to run copies of the old tests for students who didn't have "connections" to get these old tests?

If it isn't available to everyone in the class it isn't fair. Everyone should have their notes, book, access to study groups, and internet. These are all fair ways to study. Unless there is a library of old exams available to all the students I don't think it is fair.

This is just my opinion, and just b/c this is how I choose to prepare for tests doesn't mean I expect everyone else to be the same. We all have our own opinion on the matter.
 
jebus said:
I want them to know where to find the right f•cking answer or who to ask in case they don't know something...


I know you are talking about after school, but in school the answer should be found in your book or notes if not then you are right your instructors are silly and you should change schools.

If you just don't feel like reading your book and it's easier to look at an old test I would say that is just pure laziness and not the teachers fault.

(I'm saying in general, not directing it toward you.)
 
Callogician said:
Wait. You seriously thnk that medicine is an intellectual field?

WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Four to one says you'll become one of the drones by MSII.

By the way, this is coming from an ex-intellectual.


I blame this post on why we have so many misdiagnosis and tools getting left behind tv shows.
 
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