why D.O. over M.D.?

[OHMAN0125]

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You know what, the more and more I talk to actual physicians (not the pre-meds and the like) the more and more that people really need to see that there is absolutely no difference. Its all up to you over what you can do. Many DO's don't even USE OMM after their required rotations during med school or residency. Many of them don't care where they go to school they just want to be a physician.

DO schools tend to be forgiving on grades and look at the whole applicant. MD schools (most of them) have formulas you have to pass in order to get an interview (yes its a generalization but for the most part its true). DO schools claim a holistic approach to medicine, well more and more allopathic schools do this as well, so that really isn't the key anymore.

If you want to sacrafice more biochem, pharm, path for OMM then DO school would be a great fit 😉 j/k

Everyone has their own reasons of why DO. But only you as your own individual can find out which school is right for you, whether DO or MD. Once pre-meds realize that there isn't that big of a deal between most DO schools and MD schools other than osteopathic schools often focus on general practice and family practice (but don't exclude specialities), they might start to be a little more informed.

OMG, do you really have >30K posts? THat's INSANITY!!!

 

[braluk]

Lol thats because mssheaddoc has been around since the heyday (sp?) of SDN- probable one of the more knowledgeable users on these boards.

I am a pre-allo soon to be allo student, and I find it sometimes more refreshing to stop by these boards- students seem to be alot less OCD and crazy here than in pre-allo- a probably good reflection of what many allopathic students are (And I can certainly tell given that Im in an allopathic SMP at the moment) That in itself should be a good reason to take a look into osteopathic medicine 🙂

 

[AustinFinklea]

What I think does a disservice to the DO are students who claim to attend osteopathic school as "backup". It is aggravating to meet students who apply to both MD and DO not because they see medicine as the ultimate goal, where the end justify the means, or because they see both as equally valid ways of practicing medicine, but because one serves as a safety school to another. Even if the interviews serve the purpose to weed out such students, the practice in itself by self-proclaimed pre-allos, with such an intent, is unfortunate for all. Personally, one thing I do not look forward to, is condescension towards fellow medical practitioners by MDs, I don't understand the chip such individuals carry on their shoulders when everyone is doing the same thing for what is supposed to be a physicians' primary concern of serving the public.

I agree with your statement; however, there is really not much anybody can do about some (and I emphasize SOME) MDs thinking a DO is a lesser medical degree.........thats just the way the ball is going to roll for a while. It is ok for students to have a back up school. Just because the back up might be a DO school, in my opinion, does not in anyway show disrespect to osteopathic medicine. If a student has a DO school as a back up, he/she is obviously ok with attending the school barring the other choices dont work out. That, to me, doesnt show me that the student thinks any less of becoming a DO. I agree with you, physicians should just worry about their purpose as a doctor.......many practice with this in mind, but there are some who act to keep the stereotype alive.

 

[dr.kicia]

Lol thats because mssheaddoc has been around since the heyday (sp?) of SDN- probable one of the more knowledgeable users on these boards.

I am a pre-allo soon to be allo student, and I find it sometimes more refreshing to stop by these boards- students seem to be alot less OCD and crazy here than in pre-allo- a probably good reflection of what many allopathic students are (And I can certainly tell given that Im in an allopathic SMP at the moment) That in itself should be a good reason to take a look into osteopathic medicine 🙂

that is a very truthful observation...i used to hung out in the pre-allo forums few years ago but now i do not even go there. It's painful enough to read all that OCD in mcat forum for now

 

[jkhamlin]

Lol thats because mssheaddoc has been around since the heyday (sp?) of SDN- probable one of the more knowledgeable users on these boards.

Huh. Well, according to Taus, she would know nothing because she isn't in med school yet. I guess Taus subscribes to the OSUdoc08 school of thought. 🙄

 

[Dr JPH]

Huh. Well, according to Taus, she would know nothing because she isn't in med school yet. I guess Taus subscribes to the OSUdoc08 school of thought. 🙄

With all due respect jk, I think a great deal comes from being in medical school and knowing the daily expectations of a medical student.

I joined SDN 7 years ago and now with about 140 days left until finishing medical school I can tell you that the bulk of what I have learned did not come from reading SDN or talking to people who have "been around" SDN...but from being in school.

 

[Taus]

Huh. Well, according to Taus, she would know nothing because she isn't in med school yet. I guess Taus subscribes to the OSUdoc08 school of thought. 🙄

well.....you're gonna spin my words no matter what I say....but regardlesss.....of course a pre-med can have excellent and very valid advice....but some subjects take more experience to truly understand

 

[Dr JPH]

well.....you're gonna spin my words no matter what I say....but regardlesss.....of course a pre-med can have excellent and very valid advice....but some subjects take more experience to truly understand

Dont worry Taus...he will figure it out next year. While youre on rotations he will be sweating in anatomy lab!

And when youre an intern and he's a 3rd year, you can pimp him!

BTW>..how did neuro go?

 

[mille125]

completely regreted going DO because of how some people treated him throughout his rotations. Now, mind you, this person is entirely concerned about what each and every person around him thinks.....he didnt really know anything about going DO, other than he would just be a doctor. Going DO is not for everyone!!!

When students start flame wars, it usually revolves around DOs wanting respect and equality and that MDs think that allopathic is superior (not all feel this way, obviously. There are many, many incredible MD docs that give the upmost respect and proper credence to their DO counterparts and colleagues).

Bottom line: if you feel comfortable being the minority in medicine and want to learn OMT (which will be very cool) and the possibility of having to explain your credentials and training to those who are in the dark about DOs, then go for it! It is pointless to fight and bicker about the DO v MD thing; it ends up going nowhere and the thread usually gets locked up by dear old Nate.....

Good luck to you dude.[/QUOTE]


how many DO's practice OMT.....I dont know any that do (I know over 40 DO's). it seems that many DO's end up doing MD residencies..I may be wrong but this is my perception

 

[Dr JPH]

how many DO's practice OMT.....I dont know any that do (I know over 40 DO's). it seems that many DO's end up doing MD residencies..I may be wrong but this is my perception

2 topics that have been discussed ad nauseum

 

[Nasrudin]

Nasrudin, this is obviously bothering you, so let me give you a little advice...FWIW

Have you shadowed an osteopathic physician? Do you know the history of osteopathy and A.T. Still? If so, do you feel comfortable graduating with the D.O. degree and learning osteopathic medicine? Those are the questions you need to ask yourself and feel comfortable with the answers.

That's astute that you would weed through my polemic to arrive a psychological need to prove something to other people. I suppose it does give me something to answer to before I begin to pursue osteopathy.
I've worked with osteopaths.
I visited my friend at his school and went to his OMM lab with his instructor's approval. I was the subject of the instructors range of movement demonstration. I was very impressed. The instructor was able to describe all my weaknesses involving lack of range of movement due to very poor flexibility. He said I was an injury waiting to happen. Less than a year later I herniated a disc and have since undergone long and painful and ineffective treatment culminating in surgery. I began to actively treat myself with yoga practice. The impression the osteopath OMM instructor left on me with his knowledge of physical medicine was indelible. Regardless of whether I pursue osteopathy I will always give proper respect to osteopaths and their students.
But as an individual who has lived beneath my academic potential my whole life being judged by my menial occupations I've developed a psychology of "I'll show these the m@therF$ckers." Perhaps I fear being judged yet again as inferior for my education, and you've discerned this for me as a potential liability for being in a minority physician population.

I'll read up on the history and philosophy before I give it a go.

 

[jkhamlin]

well.....you're gonna spin my words no matter what I say....but regardlesss.....of course a pre-med can have excellent and very valid advice....but some subjects take more experience to truly understand

Looks like you're spinning your own words just fine without my help.

 

[dr.kicia]

how many DO's practice OMT.....I dont know any that do (I know over 40 DO's). it seems that many DO's end up doing MD residencies..I may be wrong but this is my perception

😱 😱 😱
that is like a number of a whole hospital medical stuff

 

[Dr JPH]

HAHA!

I dont think I know that many DOs!

And I would say if you know 40 there are at least a few who use OMT, I guarantee that...maybe not every day in their practice but they do. I do more OMT on friends and family than on patients.

 

[dr.kicia]

HAHA!

I dont think I know that many DOs!

And I would say if you know 40 there are at least a few who use OMT, I guarantee that...maybe not every day in their practice but they do. I do more OMT on friends and family than on patients.

yeah...family is always supportive, they will even let you experiment on them 😉

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

yeah...family is always supportive, they will even let you experiment on them 😉

My wife doesn't know it yet, but Im planning on using OMT to somehow stimulate her into giving me more sex.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

My wife doesn't know it yet, but Im planning on using OMT to somehow stimulate her into giving me more sex.

nice.

 

[dr.kicia]

My wife doesn't know it yet, but Im planning on using OMT to somehow stimulate her into giving me more sex.

i knew one way or the other those MD vs. DO threads always turn into something interesting...
*runs out to get popcorn*

 

[fanty]

*Reading over everything that has been said*

Music playin' in the background: Rock the Boat by the Hues Corporation

Well, it's fitting for this subject--well, maybe in a weird way. This whole forum seems to be in it's own world where everyone knows eachother. How can a newbie like me comment on this subject? Not to mention, I'm also pre-med. Sounds like taboo to me. Seems that Taus gets picked on because of this, too...

*cough*

Well, I'm on my best behavior. Besides that, however, this topic has been overdone...many times...and there is no settling it. Why would anyone put a DO on a high pedestal and a MD low enough to just look up in the shining glory of the DO? It's not like that! It's like having a lawyer vs. doctor fight. Neither are better, just different.

Hmmm...This is a pre-med forum...😉 I wonder if I'll be loved here...

 

[Dr.Inviz]

i knew one way or the other those MD vs. DO threads always turn into something interesting...
*runs out to get popcorn*

im bored. to death.

 

[Omar-57]

I think this is a really good question. Nothing wrong with talking about stuff. Don't be scared.

It is good practice and you get a chance to see some of your stuff written that you may not be happy with. A little reflection. Also, the question does hold in interviews. Why DO?

I believe that osteopathic medicine has a beautiful philosophy. When someone gets sick there are many worries involved and they hope for a lot of things. If your education can help you to see more and treat your patients with the broader situation it is a positive.

Osteopaths have gone through a lot and their intent has been to heal their patients as well as to gain respect in the medical community.

Our path now will lead to greater acceptance from everyone. We will move forward and make strong impressions in a variety of ways.

However, a challenge is to build osteopathic research. Hopefully national climate will change making it easier for researchers to obtain federal funding. I think it is important not to shy away from striving to make the advancement of science through primary research a fundamental goal for osteopaths.

Looking at my situation I am grateful to the osteopathic schools for being there to take me in. I felt as if I were not going to be competitive enough to get in to med school but now I have. I will not say that school status is not important to me, it is. I would like to have an elite name behind mine. Who wouldn't?

And there is nothing wrong with realizing that there are stronger spots out there.

We can still turn up the heat and make the best for ourselves and share the sprit with the community.

I feel great about becoming an osteopath and I looking forward to making strong connections with the people of medicine and science.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

This is evidence that the DO kids are just as nerdy as the MD's....I talk about how to get more sex....and yall go right back to the topic.😕

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

It is good practice and you get a chance to see some of your stuff written that you may not be happy with. A little reflection. Also, the question does hold in interviews. Why DO?
.

And to answer this question. When everthing is said and done they make big "DOllars".

 

[jkhamlin]

This is evidence that the DO kids are just as nerdy as the MD's....I talk about how to get more sex....and yall go right back to the topic.😕

Haven't you seen the "DO girls are hotter" thread?

 

[jkhamlin]

*Reading over everything that has been said*

Music playin' in the background: Rock the Boat by the Hues Corporation

Well, it's fitting for this subject--well, maybe in a weird way. This whole forum seems to be in it's own world where everyone knows eachother. How can a newbie like me comment on this subject? Not to mention, I'm also pre-med. Sounds like taboo to me. Seems that Taus gets picked on because of this, too...

*cough*

Well, I'm on my best behavior. Besides that, however, this topic has been overdone...many times...and there is no settling it. Why would anyone put a DO on a high pedestal and a MD low enough to just look up in the shining glory of the DO? It's not like that! It's like having a lawyer vs. doctor fight. Neither are better, just different.

Hmmm...This is a pre-med forum...😉 I wonder if I'll be loved here...

No, doctors are definitely better. Lawyers suck.

 

[fanty]

No, doctors are definitely better. Lawyers suck.

Oh! Did I start something!? 😛

 

[fanty]

This is evidence that the DO kids are just as nerdy as the MD's....I talk about how to get more sex....and yall go right back to the topic.😕

Well, what else is there to say after that!? Me too? Nah, so I just answered the question. 😎

BTW, I just love these smilies! Talk about expressing how you feel. Whatever would I do if they weren't there? Hmm--I think I would be yelled at!

 

[Nate]

This thread gets 5 stars for originality

 

[DoctorMom78]

I was so worried when this thread started that it was going to turn into a DO vs MD flame war. When I checked back on it this morning, you all are talking about using OMT to intice more sex out of your SO and lawyers. (Which, BTW, I don't think you will have much time for sex in med school and residency.🙄 ) I am like a proud parent!!! 😍 No one is fighting!!! I am sure the OP intended to start a war and it didn't happen. YAY PRE-OSTEOS!!!! 😍 😀 😎

 

[Packamylase]

Nasrudin, this is obviously bothering you, so let me give you a little advice...FWIW

Have you shadowed an osteopathic physician? Do you know the history of osteopathy and A.T. Still? If so, do you feel comfortable graduating with the D.O. degree and learning osteopathic medicine? Those are the questions you need to ask yourself and feel comfortable with the answers.

That's astute that you would weed through my polemic to arrive a psychological need to prove something to other people. I suppose it does give me something to answer to before I begin to pursue osteopathy.
I've worked with osteopaths.
I visited my friend at his school and went to his OMM lab with his instructor's approval. I was the subject of the instructors range of movement demonstration. I was very impressed. The instructor was able to describe all my weaknesses involving lack of range of movement due to very poor flexibility. He said I was an injury waiting to happen. Less than a year later I herniated a disc and have since undergone long and painful and ineffective treatment culminating in surgery. I began to actively treat myself with yoga practice. The impression the osteopath OMM instructor left on me with his knowledge of physical medicine was indelible. Regardless of whether I pursue osteopathy I will always give proper respect to osteopaths and their students.
But as an individual who has lived beneath my academic potential my whole life being judged by my menial occupations I've developed a psychology of "I'll show these the m@therF$ckers." Perhaps I fear being judged yet again as inferior for my education, and you've discerned this for me as a potential liability for being in a minority physician population.

I'll read up on the history and philosophy before I give it a go.

That's awesome, Nasrudin. Sounds like you have plenty of material for a kick-butt interview, and perhaps a great LOR if you have kept in touch with that osteopathic physician. I would recommend "The D.O.'s: Osteopathic Medicine in America", by Norman Gevitz. A quick and fascinating read. More than once, an interviewer was really impressed that I had read that book.

Keep your chin up!

 

[Kuba]

Yeah we beat Tennessee, though! OSU got their asses kicked... made the Big Ten look bad... so did UMich.

Our strength of schedule is going to suffer. If Morelli plays as well as he did during the Outback Bowl next year, we're gonna be in the top 20.

I'm onto the Eagles now!

Nice. I'm a huge Eagles fan too. C'mon Westbrook! Too bad Shep is out this week.

 

[Kuba]

I was so worried when this thread started that it was going to turn into a DO vs MD flame war. When I checked back on it this morning, you all are talking about using OMT to intice more sex out of your SO and lawyers. (Which, BTW, I don't think you will have much time for sex in med school and residency.🙄 ) I am like a proud parent!!! 😍 No one is fighting!!! I am sure the OP intended to start a war and it didn't happen. YAY PRE-OSTEOS!!!! 😍 😀 😎

Hah! no time for sex?! That will be the day.

 

[jkhamlin]

Nice. I'm a huge Eagles fan too. C'mon Westbrook! Too bad Shep is out this week.

Now THAT'S boring. 🙄

 

[DoctorMom78]

Hah! no time for sex?! That will be the day.

LOL! Just wait until school starts....you'll see.....🙄

 

[MaximusD]

My wife doesn't know it yet, but Im planning on using OMT to somehow stimulate her into giving me more sex.

SWEET! Time to withdraw all of my MD apps! My fiance will finally put out!

I'm, of course, kidding.

 

[MaximusD]

This thread gets 5 stars for originality

I think Nate hates us. 🙁

 

[DoctorMom78]

I think Nate hates us. 🙁

LOL! I thought it was a good thing. 😀

 

[dr.kicia]

I think Nate hates us. 🙁

i think he loves us.😀
It's like going to zoo every time he reads those threads 🙄

 

[Kuba]

i think he loves us.😀
It's like going to zoo every time he reads those threads 🙄

yea, lol, a zoo full of cows, horses, and dogs. (nothing new)

 

[jbone]

LOL! Just wait until school starts....you'll see.....🙄

I can confirm this one. 🙁 🙁

You're like "hmmmm...let's see. Sleep for 2 hours or get it on for 2 min (yes, super stamina here 😉 but time is precious). Oh I think I'll sleep...goodnight!"

 

[Y2KPSD]

Are you sure it's not the other way around???😕

 

[mille125]

HAHA!

I dont think I know that many DOs!

And I would say if you know 40 there are at least a few who use OMT, I guarantee that...maybe not every day in their practice but they do. I do more OMT on friends and family than on patients.

0/40 use OMT

 

[mille125]

😱 😱 😱
that is like a number of a whole hospital medical stuff

Precisely......There was a DO internship program at the small community hospital where I did my clinical base year. I met over 25 DO's there. I have met the others in practice. None use OMT (one doctor says that he thinks about it but does not use it in practice. He does say that he may in the future.) A few do not even believe in the philosophy behind OMT and just see it as a means of getting into med school to do an MD residency (sad but true).

 

[med26]

For specialties like PM&R, it's better to go DO. Otherwise, most DO schools are inferior to most MD schools, especially in the west.

 

[jkhamlin]

Precisely......There was a DO internship program at the small community hospital where I did my clinical base year. I met over 25 DO's there. I have met the others in practice. None use OMT (one doctor says that he thinks about it but does not use it in practice. He does say that he may in the future.) A few do not even believe in the philosophy behind OMT and just see it as a means of getting into med school to do an MD residency (sad but true).

Now we know you're full of it. If it is a DO internship program, there is at least one person there who uses OMM, if not more. 🙄

 

[mille125]

Now we know you're full of it. If it is a DO internship program, there is at least one person there who uses OMM, if not more. 🙄

Mercy Hospital of Pittsburgh.....it is an allopathic program...HOWEVER, they make sure that DO interns can get all of their requirements satisfied..most MD IM programs will not do this...therefore it attracts many, many DO interns...look at their roster ....you will see that the IM program is made up almost entirely of DO's and their transitional year program is made up of entirely of MD's....it is good marketing on their part...they know that they are a small community hospital and would have a lot of trouble filling their spots with MD's.....therefore they create a "DO internship" so to speak and have absolutely no trouble filling their spots...there are many many DO's who would do anything to get into an MD residency.......brilliant if you ask me

 

[jkhamlin]

Mercy Hospital of Pittsburgh.....it is an allopathic program...HOWEVER, they make sure that DO interns can get all of their requirements satisfied..most MD IM programs will not do this...therefore it attracts many, many DO interns...look at their roster ....you will see that the IM program is made up almost entirely of DO's and their transitional year program is made up of entirely of MD's....it is good marketing on their part...they know that they are a small community hospital and would have a lot of trouble filling their spots with MD's.....therefore they create a "DO internship" so to speak and have absolutely no trouble filling their spots...there are many many DO's who would do anything to get into an MD residency.......brilliant if you ask me

I knew there was some major catch to it. However, I shadowed for about 50 hours at an allopathic family medicine residency, and there were a few DO's there. I saw one do OMM. It is virtually a statistical impossibility that you get 40 DO's together and NONE of them ever do OMM.

 

[mshheaddoc]

With all due respect jk, I think a great deal comes from being in medical school and knowing the daily expectations of a medical student.

I joined SDN 7 years ago and now with about 140 days left until finishing medical school I can tell you that the bulk of what I have learned did not come from reading SDN or talking to people who have "been around" SDN...but from being in school.

well.....you're gonna spin my words no matter what I say....but regardlesss.....of course a pre-med can have excellent and very valid advice....but some subjects take more experience to truly understand

These guys have valid points because while pre-meds can be knowledgeable, I'll be the first to admit that not everyone can know everything. I have additional experience since I've already been "through" medical school once with my husband as well that I pretty much have time intensive study on medical school itself. I'm lucky to be surrounded by people who have already been through medical school or are almost done so I can draw from their experience and know the "dos and don'ts" of school. Trust me, it does help.

I disagree that SDN isn't a valuable resource though. Alot of what I've gathered about school in general (and application processes for residency, rotations, etc) has been gathered on SDN where I get the resources to expand (and verify) what is stated on SDN. I'm sure that once I'm in school the knowledge will be expanded (as things aren't static and changes will obviously occur). From the experience OF a med student (like expectation etc) you can't completely understand that without experiencing that so I agree with JPHazelton on that one. I think everyone's experience is different though. I have been a daily user on SDN and done many of a search for various issues on SDN dealing with school and residency. So maybe I've be around and seen a little more than the user who checks in once a week or so. I also am not the typical SDNer either 😉

I knew there was some major catch to it. However, I shadowed for about 50 hours at an allopathic family medicine residency, and there were a few DO's there. I saw one do OMM. It is virtually a statistical impossibility that you get 40 DO's together and NONE of them ever do OMM.

Just from talking with current physicians, residents, interns, medical students you can get an idea that the majority of DO's don't use OMT daily (unless you are on an OMT rotation). And honestly, most of the knowledge you get from OMT you will "lose it" if you don't "use it". Which could be frustrating as a patient because its not like the doctor can just go on the web and find the techniques (and if there IS a resource, can someone post it? 😀 ), they have to be able to find their references and dust off the cobwebs. This has happened to me personally.

You saw one DO do OMM but did you ask them how often they use it? I think those are the types of questions that pre-meds and med students need to ask to get a valid picture of how often certain methods are used in practice. Especially that most DO's probably do not feel comfortable at times doing complex OMT as they are out of practice. And also, OMT is an art that not everyone can grasp. Some people I've known can do miracles and others they just pass the class and move on. They can't pop a back to save a life 😉

 

[mshheaddoc]

For specialties like PM&R, it's better to go DO. Otherwise, most DO schools are inferior to most MD schools, especially in the west.

Yeah, that's a great attitude to take because your statement absolutely makes no sense. You learn tools in school. You don't use all of them. OMM is a tool. DO schools produce more than just PM&R applicants and many of them are quite successful. There are some great experiences at MD and DO schools but ultimately it depends on the person. To make a broad generalization pretty much isn't valid. Especially for an area of the country.

Why is it inferior? Is it the basic science education? The focus on primary care?

 

[jkhamlin]

Just from talking with current physicians, residents, interns, medical students you can get an idea that the majority of DO's don't use OMT daily (unless you are on an OMT rotation). And honestly, most of the knowledge you get from OMT you will "lose it" if you don't "use it". Which could be frustrating as a patient because its not like the doctor can just go on the web and find the techniques (and if there IS a resource, can someone post it? 😀 ), they have to be able to find their references and dust off the cobwebs. This has happened to me personally.

You saw one DO do OMM but did you ask them how often they use it? I think those are the types of questions that pre-meds and med students need to ask to get a valid picture of how often certain methods are used in practice. Especially that most DO's probably do not feel comfortable at times doing complex OMT as they are out of practice. And also, OMT is an art that not everyone can grasp. Some people I've known can do miracles and others they just pass the class and move on. They can't pop a back to save a life 😉

I have seen plenty of DO's do OMM, I was just trying to compare my experience at a residency program to his alleged experience at a "DO" internship. I disagree that most do not practice OMM. I don't get that "idea" from the physicians, residents, interns, and medical students I have talked to (besides on SDN, where I think a lot of people just spout off without much to back them up).

Yes I saw one DO do OMM at the residency program. I did ask him how often he uses it, which is an interesting area of contention within Osteopathic medicine. He explained to me that there is one school of thought that it needs to be done regularly, and there is one school of thought that it should be done if the situation warrants it. I suspect that the DO's that allegedly don't use OMM fall into the latter camp, and consider "using" OMM to be the former camp. The doctor I saw use OMM fell in the latter camp, as I believe right now that I will. It is an absolutely essential tool, but should only be used when needed, kind of like antibiotics are essential, but it would be dangerous if we were all on antibiotics on a regular basis. Also, I know for a fact that the other residents do OMM because I talked to them, and also because one was moonlighting at an urgent care when I had to take my wife there for a work comp injury. That DO resident was able to fix what was wrong with her when the MD's at the ER just wanted to narc her up and recommend surgery and weeks to months off work.