Why do you, honestly, want to be a DO?

[StudyLater]

I did not say what you have quoted. In fact, I hadn't posted in this thread until now.....

Geez. No idea how that happened. Sorry mimelim.

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[gossip_girl_xoxo]

Because I need that grade replacement

 

[Abraxas65]

Because I need that grade replacement

yeah about that grade replacement you should really follow this thread

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/any-hope.1140832/

 

[Jamie561]

Be careful. You've got to be up on the latest developments before making a sweeping statement; you've got to know whatever you're saying will be true ~9-12 (depends on where you are in HS) years in the future. Will DO's eventually have full access to previously MD-only ACGME residencies? I'll leave that for you to research. An important follow-up question is this: if they gain access, will there still be a hidden stigma at some programs? This is worth considering as a premed, because it is part of the decision making process of which sort of school you intend to attend.



Remember english class? Diction, man! Diction! It can mean the difference between "you're wonderful" and "I sincerely hate you." I'm not saying the corresponding rash judgment of others based on a single word can't be seen as ridiculous; I'm just saying being linguistically sensitive is an essential for dealing with gatekeepers, who intend to keep traditional professionalism intact.

Computerguy raises a good point and doesn't deserve to be crucified because everyone here is concerned about hurt feelings. Going to DO with MD-caliber stats is a poor decision on paper absent compelling soft factors ("location" is a nice excuse some people use). This is not controversial nor is the notion that DOs match poorly in many fields. The fact that a merger is pending implementation should not change your decision making since the details are still undecided.

 

[StudyLater]

Computerguy raises a good point and doesn't deserve to be crucified because everyone here is concerned about hurt feelings. Going to DO with MD-caliber stats is a poor decision on paper absent compelling soft factors ("location" is a nice excuse some people use). This is not controversial nor is the notion that DOs match poorly in many fields. The fact that a merger is pending implementation should not change your decision making since the details are still undecided.

Agreed. Losing ~150 DO-only programs is likely to be a significant loss for future grads, unless there is still de facto limited MD spots in those programs. I have no idea how that will work out. Worst case scenario every program becomes the same level of difficulty for DO's to match as current ACGME programs. But regardless, clerkship grades/board scores are king - do well/very well and you'll match. It was reasonably doable for DO's to match ACGME in most specialties (other than, say, neurosurg, radonc, derm) previously; so I don't see how it could end up with DO's getting backed into a corner where they can no longer match where they used to be able to. You can also look at the flip side and say that this is a major event which marks the official acceptance of the DO community by the MD community as equals in the practice of medicine, thereby increasing the prestige and respect that comes with the DO degree - this may have positive consequences for DO's in the match.

 

[Gandyy]

Ugh, the letters after the name thing. Touro CA and Touro NY have MCAT averages of 30 and GPA averages of 3.6 for matriculants. The average US MD is 3.7 and 31 MCAT.

There is a much much larger differential between DO schools than between MD schools. Hell even the lowest tier MD schools that dont have a particular mission for a certain demographic of people still have
MCAT averages of 28 or higher.

So yea before you go claiming that DO's all have ****ty grades etc, please understand the facts.

A 30 on the MCAT is actually pretty good. It doesnt seem good when you come to SDN for various reasons.


Edit: I know you apologized for it, but everyone bashing DO needs to read this stuff.

 

[CopToEM]

I chose to be a DO because the school I'm in is 1:15 minutes from my house, wife, parents, etc. Simple as that. I wanted to be a physician and it was the easiest route between A and B for me.

 

[Bones 2020]

When I wrecked my back in high school, I received a couple of manipulations before being sent to PT. I didn't even realize he was a DO, and my pain level dropped to a more tolerable level. When I learned that MD's do not know how to do these manipulations, I leaned more towards going DO because of my personal experience. One more tool in my pocket to relieve pain rather than prescribe opiates.

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

Answer A) = location
Answer B) = you gain mad palpation skills
Answer C) = OMT has a lot of useful applications (I won't go advocating for cranial, however)
Answer D) = cuz I dig DMU as a school in particular

 

[oOKawaiiOo]

Answer B) = you gain mad palpation skills

The patient awaits you.....

 

[StudyLater]

The patient awaits you.....
View attachment 193583

 

[Iridescent]

Ugh, the letters after the name thing. Touro CA and Touro NY have MCAT averages of 30 and GPA averages of 3.6 for matriculants. The average US MD is 3.7 and 31 MCAT.

There is a much much larger differential between DO schools than between MD schools. Hell even the lowest tier MD schools that dont have a particular mission for a certain demographic of people still have
MCAT averages of 28 or higher.

So yea before you go claiming that DO's all have ****ty grades etc, please understand the facts.

A 30 on the MCAT is actually pretty good. It doesnt seem good when you come to SDN for various reasons.


Edit: I know you apologized for it, but everyone bashing DO needs to read this stuff.

U.S. MD schools vary an enormous amount too. From high 20s to high 30s median scores.

MD schools have a median MCAT score of 33.

You're also giving examples of 2 schools out of 30+.

Rotations are were most DO schools get hit the hardest. Community programs without residents isn't the best place to learn to be a resident.

I have nothing against DO schools and the better ones are fine institutions. And this is not to say that MD schools are perfect either.

 

[Gandyy]

U.S. MD schools vary an enormous amount too. From high 20s to high 30s median scores.

MD schools have a median MCAT score of 33.

You're also giving examples of 2 schools out of 30+.

Rotations are were most DO schools get hit the hardest. Community programs without residents isn't the best place to learn to be a resident.

I have nothing against DO schools and the better ones are fine institutions. And this is not to say that MD schools are perfect either.

MD schools have a median MCAT of a 31, not a 33. (I dont know where everyone keeps getting this false number from, and the average MD score for the MCAT is not the 90th percentile lol Although 80th isnt too far behind) Many DO schools have MCAT averages of a 28+ now and are going up every year.

I am not giving examples of 2 schools out of 30+. There were around 10 I had to cross off because they were pretty much for instaters only. This is not counting the HBCU's.

I agree that U.S MD schools vary a great amount as well but nothing you really can say takes away from the fact that residency program directors will choose U.S. MD ultra low tier over Top Tier DO school all day.

It does seem like DO schools get hit pretty hard on rotations, but if you come from CCOM (hardest DO school to get into numbers wise) and some guy who under performs in his low tier MD program with a Step 1 Score that your score demolishes, he still gets the residency over you.

With the merger, I dont see this ridiculous anti-DO bias getting much better either.

There is a large difference between getting admitted to CCOM and say... the lowest tier schools in the nation with 24/3.4 averages.

Just as there is a large difference between getting admitted to John Hopkins and your standard MD school with 31/3.7 average matriculant status.

 

[ClassicJandT]

MD schools have a median MCAT score of 33.

MD schools have a median MCAT of a 31, not a 33. (I dont know where everyone keeps getting this false number from, and the average MD score for the MCAT is not the 90th percentile lol Although 80th isnt too far behind)

Last year's MSAR mistakenly used duplicated scores to present the national median so it incorrectly identified median MCAT score at MD schools as 33. This year's MSAR fixed the mistake so the median MCAT for MD schools is now back at the correct 31 value.

 

[Iridescent]

I agree that U.S MD schools vary a great amount as well but nothing you really can say takes away from the fact that residency program directors will choose U.S. MD ultra low tier over Top Tier DO school all day.

It does seem like DO schools get hit pretty hard on rotations, but if you come from CCOM (hardest DO school to get into numbers wise) and some guy who under performs in his low tier MD program with a Step 1 Score that your score demolishes, he still gets the residency over you.

With the merger, I dont see this ridiculous anti-DO bias getting much better either.

I don't think that's entirely true anymore. Looking at some match lists from last year, DO students are matching better and better. In the end it does come down to board scores (plus the 9 yards) and while I don't doubt that DO students have a more difficult time matching than MD students, going DO is not going to stop you from pursuing what you want anymore.

Plus, GPA/test scores are indicative of a student's motivation and testing ability. The truth is that a majority of MD students outcompete DO students, hence they land the residencies.

EDIT: I'm sure the students in better DO schools do just as fine. (They match just fine too). That's not what I'm saying.

 

[Gandyy]

I don't think that's entirely true anymore. Looking at some match lists from last year, DO students are matching better and better. In the end it does come down to board scores (plus the 9 yards) and while I don't doubt that DO students have a more difficult time matching than MD students, going DO is not going to stop you from pursuing what you want anymore.

Plus, GPA/test scores are indicative of a student's motivation and testing ability. The truth is that a majority of MD students outcompete DO students, hence they land the residencies.

EDIT: I'm sure the students in better DO schools do just as fine. (They match just fine too). That's not what I'm saying.

But there are so many MD students who get into a low to mid tier MD school with a sub 30 score (28-29) and do very well in Step 1 and medical school.

I dont think you can correlate how well someone is going to understand medicine and how well they are going to do on Boards after a 27+ score on the MCAT.

I've seen Goro and other adcoms post that the MCAT, after a certain score cutoff, has no correlation whatsoever with Board scores.

 

[Seth Joo]

Yes, I know, this has been asked before and the MD vs. DO debate has been on the forum everywhere, blah blah blah.
I do not intend for this to become an MD vs. DO debate.
Rather, I am genuinely interested in why you guys want to be a DO. That might mean comparing it to allopathic medical school, but please don't turn this into an MD vs. DO debate. We're all sick of seeing that.

So, why do you want to be a DO?
Be as honest as possible, no bull****! You are not talking to an admissions committee right now, you're talking to me and your peers.

I would say 75 to 85 percent of the people at my school are going DO because they could not get into MD. That is just being honest. There is a small percent who really want to be DO and are really into Osteopathic manipulation. I would belong to that majority who would go MD if given the opportunity.

 

[Gandyy]

I would say 75 to 85 percent of the people at my school are going DO because they could not get into MD. That is just being honest. There is a small percent who really want to be DO and are really into Osteopathic manipulation. I would belong to that majority.

If thats the case, how did you answer the question "Why Osteopathic Medicine?"

 

[JustaDO]

Because they accepted me.

 

[Seth Joo]

If thats the case, how did you answer the question "Why Osteopathic Medicine?"

They never asked me that, they asked me why I wanted to be a physician. I remember at my interview the student tour guide kept comparing the school to well known Allopathic schools, the group clearly knew this student deep down wanted to go to an MD school.

Many people I know do not deal much with OMM after the first two years of school.

 

[Gandyy]

They never asked me that, they asked me why I wanted to be a physician. I remember at my interview the student tour guide kept comparing the school to well known Allopathic schools, the group clearly knew this student deep down wanted to go to an MD school.

Many people I know do not deal much with OMM after the first two years of school.

Ok but a lot of secondary questions ask why osteopathic medicine. You had to have put something down for that. No I'm not asking for myself... I already have 4 giant paragraphs on my answer for this particular question.

 

[allantois]

If thats the case, how did you answer the question "Why Osteopathic Medicine?"

Holistic to the whole person approach applied to rural health setting with an added bonus of spine manipulation. Honestly, that question can very well be read as simply "why medicine", in which case it is no different from writing a response tailored to a particular school's mission (or better yet if your goals genuinely align with their mission).

 

[Seth Joo]

Ok but a lot of secondary questions ask why osteopathic medicine. You had to have put something down for that. No I'm not asking for myself... I already have 4 giant paragraphs on my answer for this particular question.

Maybe focus on the community based and primary care aspects of Osteopathic Medicine. Most DO schools tend to focus on underserved populations and tend to have their students rotate at community hospitals, you aren't likely to do your core rotations at Mass General.

I recall during my interview day at my current school the student tour guide I had was telling the group that he initially wanted to be an MD, and was persuading us that the school we were interviewing at was as good as a top tier MD school. There are a lot of my classmates who would go MD if they were given the chance.

My in state public MD school that I applied to and was unfortunately wait listed at is a fraction of the cost of my current DO school, that alone would have convinced me to go MD if I got in there.

 

[Gandyy]

Maybe focus on the community based and primary care aspects of Osteopathic Medicine. Most DO schools tend to focus on underserved populations and tend to have their students rotate at community hospitals, you aren't likely to do your core rotations at Mass General.

I recall during my interview day at my current school the student tour guide I had was telling the group that he initially wanted to be an MD, and was persuading us that the school we were interviewing at was as good as a top tier MD school. There are a lot of my classmates who would go MD if they were given the chance.

My in state public MD school that I applied to and was unfortunately wait listed at is a fraction of the cost of my current DO school, that alone would have convinced me to go MD if I got in there.

Yea I dont think anyone would blame you for wanting to go MD because you have advantage of Public In state MD Tuition.

 

[Giovanotto]

I may be talking out of my wazoo, but is it possible that MCAT averages have keep creeping higher and higher in the last few years because as the AMCAS has said, scores have, in the last 4-5 years gone up to where a true 50th percentile on the old test wasn't really a 50th percentile? I get that there is some flaw with my logic here especially since the way that the MCAT is scored is still a bit of a mystery to me...

I'd be curious to see if with the new MCAT, percentile scores of applicants actually drop to equate to a lower MCAT score on the old MCAT (if this makes any sense...)

 

[Gandyy]

I may be talking out of my wazoo, but is it possible that MCAT averages have keep creeping higher and higher in the last few years because as the AMCAS has said, scores have, in the last 4-5 years gone up to where a true 50th percentile on the old test wasn't really a 50th percentile? I get that there is some flaw with my logic here especially since the way that the MCAT is scored is still a bit of a mystery to me...

I'd be curious to see if with the new MCAT, percentile scores of applicants actually drop to equate to a lower MCAT score on the old MCAT (if this makes any sense...)

I just think that its getting more competitive by the year. Qualified applicants are getting pushed out of MD, and have to go to DO. So now you have a considerable amount of people with 30+ scores going to DO schools.

 

[cryhavoc]

Because I have a better chance of getting in and I think DO's are just as qualified. All the specialties I'm interested in are realistic for a DO. My loans are growing and I'd probably have to waste a another year to up my stats for MD. My growing loans from undergrad are a more important issue to me than the initials after my name to be honest.

 

[Giovanotto]

XXXX

 

[PKA<0]

Honestly, because it beats being a DON'T

 

[MachoDOAndySavage]

The area I'm in is very DO friendly, Manipulation seems like another good thing to add to the tool belt, and everyone I've talked to including the MD's I work with always say good things about DO's. Plus I'm in an Eap program for my state's osteopathic school which makes the decision a bit easier

 

[StudyLater]

I may be talking out of my wazoo, but is it possible that MCAT averages have keep creeping higher and higher in the last few years because as the AMCAS has said, scores have, in the last 4-5 years gone up to where a true 50th percentile on the old test wasn't really a 50th percentile? I get that there is some flaw with my logic here especially since the way that the MCAT is scored is still a bit of a mystery to me...

I'd be curious to see if with the new MCAT, percentile scores of applicants actually drop to equate to a lower MCAT score on the old MCAT (if this makes any sense...)

No way to know. Does it even matter? They just want people that are better (within this context) than at least 25k of the other people that took the test for a given year.

 

[BPCM]

I simply want to learn as much as I can to provide the best care to my future patients. If I can learn something extra (OMM, osteopathic philosophy, etc) and it might help someone.....why not?

 

[StudyLater]

I simply want to learn as much as I can to provide the best care to my future patients. If I can learn something extra (OMM, osteopathic philosophy, etc) and it might help someone.....why not?

Doesn't the C usually come before the P? It just has a better ring to it that way.

 

[BPCM]

Doesn't the C usually come before the P? It just has a better ring to it that way.

Doesn't m come before p?

 

[StudyLater]

Doesn't m come before p?

Yeah but....wait what the **** are you talking about?

 

[BPCM]

Yeah but....wait what the **** are you talking about?

What the funk are WE talking about? Leave my username alone.
#sdnafterdark

 

[Seth Joo]

MD schools have a median MCAT of a 31, not a 33. (I dont know where everyone keeps getting this false number from, and the average MD score for the MCAT is not the 90th percentile lol Although 80th isnt too far behind) Many DO schools have MCAT averages of a 28+ now and are going up every year.

I am not giving examples of 2 schools out of 30+. There were around 10 I had to cross off because they were pretty much for instaters only. This is not counting the HBCU's.

I agree that U.S MD schools vary a great amount as well but nothing you really can say takes away from the fact that residency program directors will choose U.S. MD ultra low tier over Top Tier DO school all day.

It does seem like DO schools get hit pretty hard on rotations, but if you come from CCOM (hardest DO school to get into numbers wise) and some guy who under performs in his low tier MD program with a Step 1 Score that your score demolishes, he still gets the residency over you.

With the merger, I dont see this ridiculous anti-DO bias getting much better either.

There is a large difference between getting admitted to CCOM and say... the lowest tier schools in the nation with 24/3.4 averages.

Just as there is a large difference between getting admitted to John Hopkins and your standard MD school with 31/3.7 average matriculant status.

CCOM is not the only DO school that has students that probably aimed to go to MD schools, also consider PCOM, NSU, Ohio, etc. At least 30 percent of current DO students could probably be in MD schools but luck did not shine upon them. And unfortunately yes there is major bias against DOs in the medical community, the merger is not going to to do squat to change this situation.

No one really wants to be a DO, most aspiring students want to be an MD. Its like most car buyers want a Mercedes not settle for a clunky Kia. Most people want a house with a lawn not an apartment in a complex.

 

[Gandyy]

CCOM is not the only DO school that has students that probably aimed to go to MD schools, also consider PCOM, NSU, Ohio, etc. At least 30 percent of current DO students could probably be in MD schools but luck did not shine upon them. And unfortunately yes there is major bias against DOs in the medical community, the merger is not going to to do squat to change this situation.

True. Since you seem to be more forthcoming than others about DO programs, what specialties are you blocked out of as a DO? Lets assume that you dont immediately become a genius and score a 280 on Step 1 and its equivalent on COMLEX.

Edit: I didnt see your comment about how a DO student is an apartment complex and a MD is a house with a lawn.

Being a DO means you still get to be a doctor at the end of the day. At the very least you will be a PCP.

 

[Iridescent]

Here we go again...

 

[Seth Joo]

True. Since you seem to be more forthcoming than others about DO programs, what specialties are you blocked out of as a DO? Lets assume that you dont immediately become a genius and score a 280 on Step 1 and its equivalent on COMLEX.

Think of certain programs at Harvard, Yale, etc, these places are way biased against DOs.

Many of my classmates would jump ship to go to a big name MD school if given the chance, and even my professors if given a position at a school, would do the same, money and prestige would be much better.

The mid and lower tier DO schools are turning into what Caribbean schools were about 10-15 years ago.

 

[Gandyy]

Think of programs at Harvard, Yale, etc, these places are way biased against DOs.

Ah yea, but I dont think anyone really cares to go to those programs except for the super gunner types who got into Harvard Med school in the first place.

So its almost a non-issue for most DO's then, no?

I am much more concerned about available specialties for my future, and tuition costs for a certain school than I am about "prestige" and the title after my name.

I'm asking about specialties though because if the title after my name in this case actually makes a huge difference on specialties in the future, then that is something I would have to consider.

 

[Seth Joo]

Ah yea, but I dont think anyone really cares to go to those programs except for the super gunner types who got into Harvard Med school in the first place.

So its almost a non-issue for most DO's then, no?

True at the end of the day you get to be a doctor. At the end of the day a Kia owner owns a car the same as a Mercedes owner.

In answer to the OP, no one really deep down wants to be a DO, they want to be a doctor.

 

[Gandyy]

True at the end of the day you get to be a doctor. At the end of the day a Kia owner owns a car the same as a Mercedes owner.

That analogy doesnt work because a DO physician is given the same training as a MD physician.

 

[Iridescent]

 

[Gandyy]

View attachment 195099

Stop fanning the fake flame that doesnt exist.

Seth Joo and I have are having a civil discussion. Yes it is possible to have a civil discussion about this topic. Not everyone is an immature 12 year old about it.

 

[asdf123g]

That analogy doesnt work because a DO physician is given the same training as a MD physician.

same training but opportunities are limited. In a perfect world, if you could choose one or the other to attend, MD or DO, Seth is saying most people would choose MD without hesisitation.

 

[Gandyy]

same training but opportunities are limited. In a perfect world, if you could choose one or the other to attend, MD or DO, Seth is saying most people would choose MD without hesisitation.

I understand that. I am trying to figure out what opportunities are limited in the form of residency specialties though? Derm, or Plastics? I have no interest in those. I do have interest in secondary specialties like cardiology and cardiovascular surgery, general surgery. I have no desire to be a dermatologist, plastic surgeon or radiology oncologist.

 

[Iridescent]

Stop fanning the fake flame that doesnt exist.

Seth Joo and I have are having a civil discussion. Yes it is possible to have a civil discussion about this topic. Not everyone is an immature 12 year old about it.

Quite the contrary.

This is something that is discussed in just about every thread that pertains to DO vs MD. Yet you continue to bring up the same analogies, same topic of discussion, and the same ideas. What are you expecting to learn?

What specialities DOs do not have access to that MDs do?

Why do people say MD is a Benz, while DO is a Kia?

Why are people micro-aggressive against the DO route?

I'm just sick and tired of this discussion that every pre med has on SDN.

 

[Gandyy]

Quite the contrary.

This is something that is discussed in just about every thread that pertains to DO vs MD. Yet you continue to bring up the same analogies, same topic of discussion, and the same ideas. What are you expecting to learn?

What specialities DOs do not have access to that MDs do?

Why do people say MD is a Benz, while DO is a Kia?

Why are people micro-aggressive against the DO route?

I'm just sick and tired of this discussion that every pre med has on SDN.

I like to hear different viewpoints on the issue. If you dont want to be a part of it, then dont be. No one is forcing you to read posts or threads. This is a forum where things will be discussed.

Also, I'm surprised you dont respond in this manner to people actually bashing DO's and instead bash people who are trying to find out the most info they can on the subject. This is the Pre-Med Osteopathic forum where people applying themselves want to know the most accurate information for their future.

 

[asdf123g]

I understand that. I am trying to figure out what opportunities are limited in the form of residency specialties though? Derm, or Plastics? I have no interest in those. I do have interest in secondary specialties like cardiology and cardiovascular surgery, general surgery. I have no desire to be a dermatologist, plastic surgeon or radiology oncologist.

you are not everybody though.