Why do you, honestly, want to be a DO?

[Iridescent]

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I like to hear different viewpoints on the issue. If you dont want to be a part of it, then dont be. No one is forcing you to read posts or threads. This is a forum where things will be discussed.

No one is forcing you to reply to me either. If you don't like my discussion don't reply to it.

And do a search. There are hundreds of viewpoints. Best view points aren't going to come from a pre-osteo forum. Hit up the specialities and ask the people going through it directly.

 

[Seth Joo]

That analogy doesnt work because a DO physician is given the same training as a MD physician.

Actually it does, because you are known to the public as a "DO" and also MD schools have actual teaching hospitals and clinical departments unlike DO schools. The AOA thinks they can open up a building with labs and hire some professors and call it a medical school, the LCME has a much higher bar than that.

 

[Gandyy]

Actually it does, because you are known to the public as a "DO" and also MD schools have actual teaching hospitals and clinical departments unlike DO schools. The AOA thinks they can open up a building with labs and hire some professors and call it a medical school, the LCME has a much higher bar than that.

Hmm. Good Points. But still, being a DO physician is still quantum tons better than not being a physician at all.

 

[Gandyy]

No one is forcing you to reply to me either. If you don't like my discussion don't reply to it.

And do a search. There are hundreds of viewpoints. Best view points aren't going to come from a pre-osteo forum. Hit up the specialities and ask the people going through it directly.

What do you mean "hit up the specialties"?

 

[Seth Joo]

Hmm. Good Points. But still, being a DO physician is still quantum tons better than not being a physician at all.

True.

 

[Iridescent]

What do you mean "hit up the specialties"?

The actual speciality forums on SDN (or at least a little higher up). Most people reading this are pre meds. You're essentially asking people who do not have any background in something, specific advice for that something.

Also Cards, and card thoracic surg are fellowship based. Meaning it's two levels higher with its own further intricacies.

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

No one really wants to be a DO

Entirely false.

 

[Gandyy]

The actual speciality forums on SDN (or at least a little higher up). Most people reading this are pre meds. You're essentially asking people who do not have any background in something, specific advice for that something.

Also Cards, and card thoracic surg are fellowship based. Meaning it's two levels higher with its own further intricacies.

But Seth Joo is a medical student. I will go to those forums as well then.

 

[Seth Joo]

Entirely false.

Well then the AOA would not need to spend so much money on marketing on propaganda then, but they are doing that to "educate" the uninformed public. The AOA brings representatives to schools to present Osteopathic Medicine. MD schools do not need to do this kind of stuff.

 

[Gandyy]

you are not everybody though.

If people going to DO schools or even many MD schools are gunning for ONLY a dermatology residency or plastic surgery residency, they are delusional and in for a world of hurt.

I have a few friends who obliterated their step exams at mid tier MD schools and had really strong applications, but they still had to take off two-three years to get a derm residency.

Its not feasible for like 95 percent of all medical graduates period.

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

Well then the AOA would not need to spend so much money on marketing on propaganda then, but they are doing that to "educate" the uninformed public. The AOA brings representatives to schools to present Osteopathic Medicine. MD schools do not need to do this kind of stuff.

This is low hanging fruit -- the above doesn't negate the fact that the absolutist argument you made before is false. The fact that there are people who, despite being accepted to both MD and DO schools, chose a DO school does negate the statement of yours that I quoted before. And there are people like this.

 

[StudyLater]

I have a few friends who obliterated their step exams at mid tier MD schools and had really strong applications, but they still had to take off two-three years to get a derm residency.

Just interested: What do they end up doing in this scenario?

 

[Lawgiver]

I just wanna do medicine, don't care do or md. Sure I will have to play the game but I don't really care. I checked my ego at the door when I was like 10 and never picked it up again. It's pretty great to feel this way. Cheapest and close to family are my top 2 priorities, everything else is waaaaay at the bottom.

 

[Gandyy]

Just interested: What do they end up doing in this scenario?

They worked during those 2 or 3 years in a dermatology research positions. They didnt have any loans though because their parents are rich......

 

[Gandyy]

I just wanna do medicine, don't care do or md. Sure I will have to play the game but I don't really care. I checked my ego at the door when I was like 10 and never picked it up again. It's pretty great to feel this way. Cheapest and close to family are my top 2 priorities, everything else is waaaaay at the bottom.

Its not about ego. People interested in getting to competitive residency by putting in less work are interested in MD over DO as well. As a DO you have to work much harder to get the same residency that a MD would.

Or at least I hope that would be the reason and not because of the title after their name...

 

[235009]

Why are people micro-aggressive against the DO route?

I'm just sick and tired of this discussion that every pre med has on SDN.

....and here I thought I was being facetious when I said.....

The reason I even respond to threads like this is the undue sense of entitlement and misuse of popular buzzwords like "discrimination". Next thing you know you'll find a way to throw in "bullying" and "microaggressions"

We need to have a revolution against these meaningless buzzwords that people use to try to stifle discussion and shut down contrary opinions and even facts that don't fit in with a person's pre-conceived views. What a joke. I'm sorry your feelings are hurt but the comments you were responding to were not mean-spirited or incendiary... they just contain facts, observations, analysis, or opinions that make you uncomfortable... that doesn't make them "micro-aggressive"...whatever the hell that means.

 

[Instatewaiter]

That analogy doesnt work because a DO physician is given the same training as a MD physician.

Not really true when you look at both the clinical training and the residency opportunities. What you learn in your pre-clinical classes is but the surface of your true training which occurs once you start your clinical training.

The merger is going to do essentially nothing for DOs in terms of acceptance into various resicencies. The merger is mainly symbolic. Program directors aren't magically going to start accepting DOs if they havent before. DOs can already apply to all ACGME residencies.

As it stands now, MDs cannot apply to AOA residencies but the merger will now open up these to MD students (you know if they want to live in rural nebraska, or Des moines- obviously kidding, no one wants to live in Des Moines).

 

[Iridescent]

....and here I thought I was being facetious when I said.....



We need to have a revolution against these meaningless buzzwords that people use to try to stifle discussion and shut down contrary opinions and even facts that don't fit in with a person's pre-conceived views. What a joke. I'm sorry your feelings are hurt but the comments you were responding to were not mean-spirited or incendiary... they just contain facts, observations, analysis, or opinions that make you uncomfortable... that doesn't make them "micro-aggressive"...whatever the hell that means.

I have no reason to be hurt and this certainly isn't micro aggressive towards me. I attend an MD school.

People can discuss anything they like. For me, I wanted to discuss how played out these discussions are. Just as you pointed out how meaningless my use of microagressive is.

Also, properly read my posts in this thread before responding with such a tone.

 

[el_duderino]

Not really true when you look at both the clinical training and the residency opportunities. What you learn in your pre-clinical classes is but the surface of your true training which occurs once you start your clinical training.

The merger is going to do essentially nothing for DOs in terms of acceptance into various resicencies. The merger is mainly symbolic. Program directors aren't magically going to start accepting DOs if they havent before. DOs can already apply to all ACGME residencies.

As it stands now, MDs cannot apply to AOA residencies but the merger will now open up these to MD students (you know if they want to live in rural nebraska, or Des moines- obviously kidding, no one wants to live in Des Moines).

The merger might be the first step to getting rid of DO as a degree and having all the DO-granting institutions hand out MDs. It makes no sense whatsoever to have two different degrees.

 

[StudyLater]

They worked during those 2 or 3 years in a dermatology research positions. They didnt have any loans though because their parents are rich......

Ah I see. Go social capital.

 

[235009]

I have no reason to be hurt and this certainly isn't micro aggressive towards me. I attend an MD school.

People can discuss anything they like. For me, I wanted to discuss how played out these discussions are. Just as you pointed out how meaningless my use of microagressive is.

Also, properly read my posts in this thread before responding with such a tone.

i read them. the fact that you used that meaningless word devalues everything you've ever written

GOOD DAY SIR!

 

[Iridescent]

i read them. the fact that you used that meaningless word devalues everything you've ever written

GOOD DAY SIR!

Lol it was discussed in one of our orientation lessons last week. That's kinda why it's on my mind haha

 

[235009]

Lol it was discussed in one of our orientation lessons last week. That's kinda why it's on my mind haha

That's so disappointing that professional students are being fed this victimhood bullsh*t

Also as someone who hasn't even started med school yet you should probably do more listening than talking when it comes to the differences between the two degrees rather than just making noise about "micro-aggressions" and and being macro-aggressive about the tone of people who are more knowledgeable about the process than you.

 

[Gandyy]

That's so disappointing that professional students are being fed this victimhood bullsh*t

Also as someone who hasn't even started med school yet you should probably do more listening than talking when it comes to the differences between the two degrees rather than just making noise about "micro-aggressions" and and being macro-aggressive about the tone of people who are more knowledgeable about the process than you.

I have a question for you. Do you despise and hate DO's physicians as much as I think you do? Or do you hate the institutions that teach the DO physicians? Furthermore, do you think of DO's as lesser people?

 

[Iridescent]

That's so disappointing that professional students are being fed this victimhood bullsh*t

Also as someone who hasn't even started med school yet you should probably do more listening than talking when it comes to the differences between the two degrees rather than just making noise about "micro-aggressions" and and being macro-aggressive about the tone of people who are more knowledgeable about the process than you.

Whoa. Lol. Again I never proclaimed anything. All I said was I'm tired of reading topics x, y and z (in which one of those contained your beloved buzzword).


And See how you just got offended without me trying to be offensive. That's the basic concept of microagression. It isn't completely bull****. Its a way to fine tune your communication skills.

 

[235009]

I have a question for you. Do you despise and hate DO's physicians as much as I think you do? Or do you hate the institutions that teach the DO physicians? Furthermore, do you think of DO's as lesser people?

wow, some pre-meds are so insufferably annoying and have such fragile egos

Whoa. Lol. Again I never proclaimed anything. All I said was I'm tired of reading topics x, y and z (in which one of those contained your beloved buzzword).


And See how you just got offended without me trying to be offensive. That's the basic concept of microagression. It isn't completely bull****. Its a way to fine tune your communication skills.

we've communicated just fine up until now without having a dictionary full of buzzwords to define how victimized we each feel... it's complete bullsh*t

 

[Gandyy]

wow, some pre-meds are so insufferably annoying and have such fragile egos



we've communicated just fine up until now without having a dictionary full of buzzwords to define how victimized we each feel... it's complete bullsh*t

No actually my ego nor my conscious is hurt. I'm not even a medical student let alone an Osteopathic Medical Student. Your opinions do not hurt my feelings or anything like that. But I've seen a lot of your comments over the past year and you seem to really hate on DO's for some reason. I'm trying to figure out why.

In fact, anytime Goro makes a comment about residency's for DO's, you always make it a point to come in and start bashing DO's.

Again, I'm not offended here, but you seem to have a lot of strong opinions about DO's. From viewing your posts over the past year, its almost like you have some kind of personal vendetta against DOs.

If I am totally wrong here, I 100 percent apologize to you and its totally my bad.

 

[DrEnderW]

The merger is going to do essentially nothing for DOs in terms of acceptance into various resicencies. The merger is mainly symbolic. Program directors aren't magically going to start accepting DOs if they havent before. DOs can already apply to all ACGME residencies.

As it stands now, MDs cannot apply to AOA residencies but the merger will now open up these to MD students (you know if they want to live in rural nebraska, or Des moines- obviously kidding, no one wants to live in Des Moines).

I agree with your general point about this not being a magic light switch.

The real value is for fellowship opportunities for DOs that went the AOA route (often the most competitive students in the surgical subspecialties and such) and not having to gamble skipping the AOA match. For example, even with a 250 Step 1 is it worth me gambling with the ACGME match or taking a better chance offer via the AOA route for a highly competitive specialty? As is stands right now, many top students don't even see what would have happened in the ACGME match. That can be pretty limiting. I don't think it will impact the average/ below-avg student soon in any meaningful way though.

I know you're exaggerating, but for others reading there are actually no AOA residences in Nebraska and only 2 programs is Des Moines according to the AOA residency website. There are ~45 in the greater NYC area, 32 in CA, 20ish in Philly, probably 75+ in greater Detroit area, etc. There are some crap locations but it's not quite as bad as many think.

 

[235009]

No actually my ego nor my conscious is hurt. I'm not even a medical student let alone an Osteopathic Medical Student. Your opinions do not hurt my feelings or anything like that. But I've seen a lot of your comments over the past year and you seem to really hate on DO's for some reason. I'm trying to figure out why.

In fact, anytime Goro makes a comment about residency's for DO's, you always make it a point to come in and start bashing DO's.

Again, I'm not offended here, but you seem to have a lot of strong opinions about DO's. From viewing your posts over the past year, its almost like you have some kind of personal vendetta against DOs.

If I am totally wrong here, I 100 percent apologize to you and its totally my bad.

I have no dog in this (figurative) fight and I certainly don't hate anyone. My comments, observations, and opinions have almost always been backed up by both MD and DO residents and attendings. It's always the pre-meds and pre-clinical med students who think I'm trying to insult them by saying anything other than "everyone is equal, you make your own path, DO = MD". It's simply not true and when you eventually get to the point when you have some experience under your belt (going through med school apps, residency apps, residency) then you too might have some strong opinions that are backed up with experiences but until then just listen to both sides and proceed with caution.

As for the specific poster you mentioned: being an ad com member at an osteopathic school who is not a physician and in no way participates in clinical education or residency applications gives a person about as much insight into the residency application process as a pre-med and yet affords the opportunity to use the adcom title to make meaningless assertions like "you can do any specialty as a DO" without any actual knowledge or experience to back up what is being said.

 

[Gandyy]

I have no dog in this (figurative) fight and I certainly don't hate anyone. My comments, observations, and opinions have almost always been backed up by both MD and DO residents and attendings. It's always the pre-meds and pre-clinical med students who think I'm trying to insult them by saying anything other than "everyone is equal, you make your own path, DO = MD". It's simply not true and when you eventually get to the point when you have some experience under your belt (going through med school apps, residency apps, residency) then you too might have some strong opinions that are backed up with experiences but until then just listen to both sides and proceed with caution.

As for the specific poster you mentioned: being an ad com member at an osteopathic school who is not a physician and in no way participates in clinical education or residency applications gives a person about as much insight into the residency application process as a pre-med and yet affords the opportunity to use the adcom title to make meaningless assertions like "you can do any specialty as a DO" without any actual knowledge or experience to back up what is being said.

Hmm.... Ok I apologize for asking the question before, but I had to ask because like I said I havnet said anything to you for a year now.

Still I would say that Goro is not making stuff up

 

[Giovanotto]

I've been thinking about this more and more, and I can almost compare an osteopathic medical education to a 21st century liberal arts one. They both prepare you for broad studies (in the DO case; primary care) that form the foundation for a specialty.

 

[el_duderino]

I've been thinking about this more and more, and I can almost compare an osteopathic medical education to a 21st century liberal arts one. They both prepare you for broad studies (in the DO case; primary care) that form the foundation for a specialty.

You're clearly under the mistaken impression that DO education is actually different from MD education somehow.

 

[Roxas]

I've been thinking about this more and more, and I can almost compare an osteopathic medical education to a 21st century liberal arts one. They both prepare you for broad studies (in the DO case; primary care) that form the foundation for a specialty.

This has not been my experience, they do plenty to get us jazzed up about competitive specialties. Not to mention, we learn the same basic sciences as allopathic schools and most take the USMLE as well

 

[Giovanotto]

You're clearly under the mistaken impression that DO education is actually different from MD education somehow.

This has not been my experience, they do plenty to get us jazzed up about competitive specialties. Not to mention, we learn the same basic sciences as allopathic schools and most take the USMLE as well

Whelp, there goes my interview response!
@jonnythan, it's not that, I am more referring to the DO philosophy: To train physicians in a foundation of primary care.

 

[Roxas]

Whelp, there goes my interview response!
@jonnythan, it's not that, I am more referring to the DO philosophy: To train physicians in a foundation of primary care.

You can find MD schools with a similar mantra

 

[Giovanotto]

You can find MD schools with a similar mantra

A mantra that was taken from the DO philosophy? Or are you literally trying to kill me? Does everybody here mean to tell me there is no difference between MD and DO, save for a tougher time during specialties....

 

[Roxas]

A mantra that was taken from the DO philosophy?

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I swear there are allopathic schools with mission statements about rural populations and primary care that has nothing to do with DO philosophy.

Or are you literally trying to kill me? Does everybody here mean to tell me there is no difference between MD and DO, save for a tougher time during specialties....

Well, I am trained in deadly DO techniques, exhibited here:

 

[radkat101]

A mantra that was taken from the DO philosophy? Or are you literally trying to kill me? Does everybody here mean to tell me there is no difference between MD and DO, save for a tougher time during specialties....

These days, yeah. The only difference is having to put up with OMM (which most of us will never use) and then facing discrimination in the match. The "primary care emphasis" is just used to justify the match lists. DO schools would be thrilled to have all their students match competitive specialties, and we'd be seeing the match list from that school real fast if it happened. I have an even harder time trying to explain what makes DO's different now then I did before I started med school. Just OMM? Seriously? It's no wonder the public is confused/doesn't understand what a DO is. You can't blame them because even I'm confused!

 

[IslandStyle808]

These days, yeah. The only difference is having to put up with OMM (which most of us will never use) and then facing discrimination in the match. The "primary care emphasis" is just used to justify the match lists. DO schools would be thrilled to have all their students match competitive specialties, and we'd be seeing the match list from that school real fast if it happened. I have an even harder time trying to explain what makes DO's different now then I did before I started med school. Just OMM? Seriously? It's no wonder the public is confused/doesn't understand what a DO is. You can't blame them because even I'm confused!

No hiding behind that either. A person with a good understanding of internal medicine and pediatrics matching can see through that facade also.

 

[notbobtrustme]

For people saying that DO and MD learn the same stuff, that's not really true. How you function as a doctor is depended on your residency training. Medical School does a very poor job of training you to be a doctor.

Thus, matching into a good residency program is how you become the best doctor you can be. To be frank, most DOs I've talked to going into IM are shooting for places that would be backups for Most of my class. Getting into a university program as a DO is hard and getting into a strong program is harder.

 

[Iridescent]

For people saying that DO and MD learn the same stuff, that's not really true. How you function as a doctor is depended on your residency training. Medical School does a very poor job of training you to be a doctor.

Thus, matching into a good residency program is how you become the best doctor you can be. To be frank, most DOs I've talked to going into IM are shooting for places that would be backups for Most of my class. Getting into a university program as a DO is hard and getting into a strong program is harder.

Definitely. We also have to realize that just about every student there isn't there because they want to be there. If actually given a choice between MD, it would be a no brainer for most. Only time I can think that a student might want a DO program over MD is because of location.

I honestly don't think the philosophy even matters for almost all of the class.

In the end, internal or family is better than not being a doctor.

 

[Seth Joo]

Definitely. We also have to realize that just about every student there isn't there because they want to be there. If actually given a choice between MD, it would be a no brainer for most. Only time I can think that a student might want a DO program over MD is because of location.

I honestly don't think the philosophy even matters for almost all of the class.

In the end, internal or family is better than not being a doctor.

I read about a student who chose CCOM over U of Illinois because it was near Chicago, I heard of people picking other DO schools because they were near big cities while the Allopathic schools they got into were in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Iridescent]

I read about a student who chose CCOM over U of Illinois because it was near Chicago, I heard of people picking other DO schools because they were near big cities while the Allopathic schools they got into were in the middle of nowhere.

Honestly that's not Smart. Unless I had a spouse that could not leave the area under any circumstance, I would never choose DO over MD due to geography.

A reason I would is money. But DO schools barely get any outside funding and therefore rely on Tuition as their major source of income. Hence, very limited scholarships.

 

[Seth Joo]

Honestly that's not Smart. Unless I had a spouse that could not leave the area under any circumstance, I would never choose DO over MD due to geography.

A reason I would is money. But DO schools barely get any outside funding and therefore rely on Tuition as their major source of income. Hence, very limited scholarships.

Check out the stats of some lesser ranked DO schools located near major US cities, they have some of the highest MCATs and GPAs of any schools around, is that an accident? No, they attract students who would rather be near a big city than go to some MD school in the middle of nowhere. CCOM is one of those schools. Its kind of like real estate, location can be a big seller for a school.

 

[Iridescent]

Check out the stats of some lesser ranked DO schools located near major US cities, they have some of the highest MCATs and GPAs of any schools around, is that an accident? No, they attract students who would rather be near a big city than go to some MD school in the middle of nowhere. CCOM is one of those schools. Its kind of like real estate, location can be a big seller for a school.

I agree location matters big time to a lot of people. i still feel like many of the CCOM people would still do MD regardless.

I'm not saying anything against CCOM or any of the other reputable DO schools, just that people would rather have a name brand degree that will matter when applying to residencies and not have to explain what DO means.

I would rather have an US MD from bumblef*** nowhere than a DO around chi of nyc.

 

[radkat101]

I read about a student who chose CCOM over U of Illinois because it was near Chicago, I heard of people picking other DO schools because they were near big cities while the Allopathic schools they got into were in the middle of nowhere.

I'd say the majority of my class could have gone to an MD school somewhere if they applied more broadly. The cheap tuition, location, and our rep here in the state makes the school pretty attractive, and I think most people here, including the grads are content with being DO's and the residency opportunities we have. At the time I applied, I pretty much viewed the school in the same light as the rest of the MD schools here. OMM is a lot worse than I thought it would be though, and a lot of times I'm in lab I wonder whether I should have applied to more MD programs. These feelings usually fade when lab's over. Still, there's no way I would choose a costly DO program over any MD school.

 

[radkat101]

Honestly that's not Smart. Unless I had a spouse that could not leave the area under any circumstance, I would never choose DO over MD due to geography.

A reason I would is money. But DO schools barely get any outside funding and therefore rely on Tuition as their major source of income. Hence, very limited scholarships.

Texas. Even without scholarships (and a lot of my classmates have them) tuition is <20K a year. There are certainly people here who probably would have preferred to match into one of the MD programs, but I think there's a pretty unanimous understanding that being here is better than leaving the state. Especially those who ultimately want to do residency and practice in Texas.

 

[QueenJames]

Arghh!! I seriously wish I established residency and went to school in Texas! I have family there and would have applied and hopefully been accepted into a Texas DO program. That tuition doeeeee!

 

[Seth Joo]

I agree location matters big time to a lot of people. i still feel like many of the CCOM people would still do MD regardless.

I'm not saying anything against CCOM or any of the other reputable DO schools, just that people would rather have a name brand degree that will matter when applying to residencies and not have to explain what DO means.

I would rather have an US MD from bumblef*** nowhere than a DO around chi of nyc.

Many CCOM folks would do MD regardless, but there are other DO schools that seem to attract MD quality applicants and my school is one of them. Some of the DO schools located on the big coastal cities attract high caliber applicants with excellent stats yet settle for being DOs, you know deep down these people would rather be MDs.

If a DO school opened up inside an abandoned JC Penney or Sears in the Boston area, that school would be flooded with applications left and right overnight. Location can help a school build its applicant base big time.

The brand bias in medical education will continue to exist but schools will know how to get around those biases. DO schools will be like Hyundai and Kia while MD will be Toyota, Honda, and Mercedes, everyone knows who they are, and they do not really have to market themselves to get buyers.

I constantly get junk mail from the AOA constantly telling me I made a good decision going to a DO school, I get pins, T-shirts, and other trinkets from them saying what a great choice I made to become a DO. Do you think people at LCME schools get stuff like this constantly reminding them they made a great choice to become an MD?

 

[asdf123g]

Many CCOM folks would do MD regardless, but there are other DO schools that seem to attract MD quality applicants and my school is one of them. Some of the DO schools located on the big coastal cities attract high caliber applicants with excellent stats yet settle for being DOs, you know deep down these people would rather be MDs.

If a DO school opened up inside an abandoned JC Penney or Sears in the Boston area, that school would be flooded with applications left and right overnight. Location can help a school build its applicant base big time.

The brand bias in medical education will continue to exist but schools will know how to get around those biases. DO schools will be like Hyundai and Kia while MD will be Toyota, Honda, and Mercedes, everyone knows who they are, and they do not really have to market themselves to get buyers.

im not saying I disagree with you, but by this logic, wouldn't the DO degree begin to become much much more main stream (and rapidly) if DO's began opening up new schools in populated areas rather than in rural locations as most seem to do now?