why dont they merge DOs and MDs into the same degree?

[mrh125]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I mean they share more in common than differences and the few differences just seem ridiculous (why are DOs at a disadvantage for certain residencies if they're supposed to be a 100% equivalent to MDs? Why are there two sets of accreditation exams?). I really don't see the harm in just making DOs MDs and maybe offering the special DO methodology courses at every med school and make DO methodology a special certification.

Why hasn't this been done? Even though DOs are gradually (if you look at the time scale it's gradual) becoming more and more equivalent to MDs all of the biases and lack of full equivalence could be eliminated by this. DOS also seem to jump through a few more arguably unnecessary hoops.

Also, both residency type programs merged, why cant DOs and MDs do the same?

 

[gettheleadout]

The AOA.

 

[deleted407021]

Well, yeah. Apparently, the AOA has been a bit difficult to work with in the negotiations, but they are probably just being defensive of their precious uniqueness. Why would DO have to become MD, or visa versa? These recent developments suggest that it will eventually happen, but in what form, that is up to speculation.

 

[baconshrimps]

I mean they share more in common than differences and the few differences just seem ridiculous (why are DOs at a disadvantage for certain residencies if they're supposed to be a 100% equivalent to MDs? Why are there two sets of accreditation exams?). I really don't see the harm in just making DOs MDs and maybe offering the special DO methodology courses at every med school and make DO methodology a special certification.

Why hasn't this been done? Even though DOs are gradually (if you look at the time scale it's gradual) becoming more and more equivalent to MDs all of the biases and lack of full equivalence could be eliminated by this. DOS also seem to jump through a few more arguably unnecessary hoops.

Also, both residency type programs merged, why cant DOs and MDs do the same?

The 'residency type' programs haven't merged. The application system has been unified, but the residency programs and accrediting bodies (ACGME for MD, AOA for DO) operate independently of each other.
Get your facts straight.
Noone cares about 'DO methodology'. It's archaic, obsolete even. No MD student in their right mind is interested in learning something additional that they would never use, on top of the massive infocoepia they are already expected to know.
This idea of DO discrimination exists because there is a substantively lower standard for admission to DO school, and that somewhat calls into question the standards to which DO students will be held, as well as the quality of their education.
DO's are not considered 100% equivalent to MD's. If you want to do an ACGME residency as a DO, your USMLE scores are usually expected to be higher than the MD students you are competing with for a spot in a given residency program.
The DO exists because some fool named A.T. Still convinced enough chumps that "the human body possesses all it needs to heal itself" - yeah right, lets talk about infliximab if thats the case. Because of this, an entire 'distinguished' profession from those earning the MD degree was established.

I apologize if it seems as if I am defaming the DO profession - I'm just stating facts, not saying this reflects my own opinions.

OP, the truth remains, that until DO schools up their standards for admission, they will likely continue to be looked down upon.

The AOA.

Yerpp.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

The MDs haven't accepted the DO initials even though we welcome them with open arms, so ask them why.

 

[bionerd89]

The 'residency type' programs haven't merged. The application system has been unified, but the residency programs and accrediting bodies (ACGME for MD, AOA for DO) operate independently of each other.
Get your facts straight.
Noone cares about 'DO methodology'. It's archaic, obsolete even. No MD student in their right mind is interested in learning something additional that they would never use, on top of the massive infocoepia they are already expected to know.
This idea of DO discrimination exists because there is a substantively lower standard for admission to DO school, and that somewhat calls into question the standards to which DO students will be held, as well as the quality of their education.
DO's are not considered 100% equivalent to MD's. If you want to do an ACGME residency as a DO, your USMLE scores are usually expected to be higher than the MD students you are competing with for a spot in a given residency program.
The DO exists because some fool named A.T. Still convinced enough chumps that "the human body possesses all it needs to heal itself" - yeah right, lets talk about infliximab if thats the case. Because of this, an entire 'distinguished' profession from those earning the MD degree was established.

I apologize if it seems as if I am defaming the DO profession - I'm just stating facts, not saying this reflects my own opinions.

OP, the truth remains, that until DO schools up their standards for admission, they will likely continue to be looked down upon.


Yerpp.

What about Carribean MDs? They also have low admission stats so how do you guys feel about them being MDs?

 

[sliceofbread136]

What about Carribean MDs? They also have low admission stats so how do you guys feel about them being MDs?

It might as well be a different degree.

 

[baconshrimps]

What about Carribean MDs? They also have low admission stats so how do you guys feel about them being MDs?

It's an irrelevant point. We're talking about medical education in the United States, which is praised for its standards.
Medical Schools in foreign countries do not need to adhere to the same standards of medical schools in the U.S.

 

[gumdrops]

The 'residency type' programs haven't merged. The application system has been unified, but the residency programs and accrediting bodies (ACGME for MD, AOA for DO) operate independently of each other.
Get your facts straight.
Noone cares about 'DO methodology'. It's archaic, obsolete even. No MD student in their right mind is interested in learning something additional that they would never use, on top of the massive infocoepia they are already expected to know.
This idea of DO discrimination exists because there is a substantively lower standard for admission to DO school, and that somewhat calls into question the standards to which DO students will be held, as well as the quality of their education.
DO's are not considered 100% equivalent to MD's. If you want to do an ACGME residency as a DO, your USMLE scores are usually expected to be higher than the MD students you are competing with for a spot in a given residency program.
The DO exists because some fool named A.T. Still convinced enough chumps that "the human body possesses all it needs to heal itself" - yeah right, lets talk about infliximab if thats the case. Because of this, an entire 'distinguished' profession from those earning the MD degree was established.

I apologize if it seems as if I am defaming the DO profession - I'm just stating facts, not saying this reflects my own opinions.

OP, the truth remains, that until DO schools up their standards for admission, they will likely continue to be looked down upon.


Yerpp.

Although this is true, I still find this unfair. If two people have the same USMLE score, they'd know the same rough amount of material, no? Don't see why DO's should be penalized in this case unless the DO curriculum is missing aspects that would make them unqualified for that specialty.

 

[Espadaleader]

The 'residency type' programs haven't merged. The application system has been unified, but the residency programs and accrediting bodies (ACGME for MD, AOA for DO) operate independently of each other.
Get your facts straight.
Noone cares about 'DO methodology'. It's archaic, obsolete even. No MD student in their right mind is interested in learning something additional that they would never use, on top of the massive infocoepia they are already expected to know.
This idea of DO discrimination exists because there is a substantively lower standard for admission to DO school, and that somewhat calls into question the standards to which DO students will be held, as well as the quality of their education.
DO's are not considered 100% equivalent to MD's. If you want to do an ACGME residency as a DO, your USMLE scores are usually expected to be higher than the MD students you are competing with for a spot in a given residency program.
The DO exists because some fool named A.T. Still convinced enough chumps that "the human body possesses all it needs to heal itself" - yeah right, lets talk about infliximab if thats the case. Because of this, an entire 'distinguished' profession from those earning the MD degree was established.

I apologize if it seems as if I am defaming the DO profession - I'm just stating facts, not saying this reflects my own opinions.

OP, the truth remains, that until DO schools up their standards for admission, they will likely continue to be looked down upon.


Yerpp.

Hey @baconshrimps. They are merging.

• From July 1, 2015 to June 30, 2020, AOA-accredited training programs will transition to ACGME recognition and accreditation.
  
  
• There will continue to be osteopathic-focused training programs under the ACGME accreditation system. Two osteopathic review committees will be developed to evaluate and set standards for the osteopathic aspects of training programs seeking osteopathic recognition.
  
  
• DOs and MDs would have access to all training programs. There will be prerequisite competencies and a recommended program of training for MD graduates who apply for entry into osteopathic-focused programs.
  
  
• AOA and AACOM will become ACGME member organizations, and each will have representation on ACGME’s board of directors.
  

 

[baconshrimps]

Although this is true, I still find this unfair. If two people have the same USMLE score, they'd know the same rough amount of material, no? Don't see why DO's should be penalized in this case unless the DO curriculum is missing aspects that would make them unqualified for that specialty.

It's kind of like that low MCAT / high GPA thing you see for medical school admissions.
I suppose you can say that attending DO school is the medical school equivalent of having a low GPA (if applying to ACGME residencies) and so they are expected to have a higher USMLE score? I'm just spitballing here but that's the only justification I can think of. Again, the logic here is that residency program directors may be weary of the standards of admission and the standards to which DO students are held to in school compared with that of MD.

 

[mrh125]

The 'residency type' programs haven't merged. The application system has been unified, but the residency programs and accrediting bodies (ACGME for MD, AOA for DO) operate independently of each other.
Get your facts straight.
Noone cares about 'DO methodology'. It's archaic, obsolete even. No MD student in their right mind is interested in learning something additional that they would never use, on top of the massive infocoepia they are already expected to know.
This idea of DO discrimination exists because there is a substantively lower standard for admission to DO school, and that somewhat calls into question the standards to which DO students will be held, as well as the quality of their education.
DO's are not considered 100% equivalent to MD's. If you want to do an ACGME residency as a DO, your USMLE scores are usually expected to be higher than the MD students you are competing with for a spot in a given residency program.
The DO exists because some fool named A.T. Still convinced enough chumps that "the human body possesses all it needs to heal itself" - yeah right, lets talk about infliximab if thats the case. Because of this, an entire 'distinguished' profession from those earning the MD degree was established.

I apologize if it seems as if I am defaming the DO profession - I'm just stating facts, not saying this reflects my own opinions.

OP, the truth remains, that until DO schools up their standards for admission, they will likely continue to be looked down upon.


Yerpp.

I'm premed im not going to know every single fact about the differences.
why exactly is having a lower standards of admissions "the big issue here"? If all med schools accepted 34+ 3.80 gpa students then there would be a hell of a lot of people who undeservingly missed out on medicine due to cookie cutter requirements. take away the pseudoscience and AOA business and DOs with their admissions requirements would be on the same level as low to mid MD schools. What'd be the problem with that? DO schools provide a lot of students opportunities due to cookie-cutter admissions requirements, but they really should just be MD schools.

 

[Espadaleader]

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/ACGME-single-accreditation-system.aspx

 

[bionerd89]

It's an irrelevant point. We're talking about medical education in the United States, which is praised for its standards.
Medical Schools in foreign countries do not need to adhere to the same standards of medical schools in the U.S.

True, but I guess my point was that even though US MD and Carribean MD both have different education standards, they are still grouped as MDs.

 

[baconshrimps]

True, but I guess my point was that even though US MD and Carribean MD both have different education standards, they are still grouped as MDs.

Doesn't matter. You have to take the country in which the degree was earned into consideration.
Take a look at what the MD from University of St. Andrews in Scotland is given for:
http://medicine.st-andrews.ac.uk/postgraduate/phdmd/

Also, you should take into consideration the standard of healthcare in the country where the person is receiving their professional medical degree, as well as the institution. I'd sooner seek the care of an MD from University of Tokyo or an MBBS from Imperial College London than I would from someone who earned their MD from Ross University.

 

[bionerd89]

Doesn't matter. You have to take the country in which the degree was earned into consideration.
Take a look at what the MD from University of St. Andrews in Scotland is given for:
http://medicine.st-andrews.ac.uk/postgraduate/phdmd/

Also, you should take into consideration the standard of healthcare in the country where the person is receiving their professional medical degree, as well as the institution. I'd sooner seek the care of an MD from University of Tokyo or an MBBS from Imperial College London than I would from someone who earned their MD from Ross University.

I agree. I guess its unfortunate then that they don't have a separate title for those who have a foreign MD.

 

[baconshrimps]

I agree. I guess its unfortunate then that they don't have a separate title for those who have a foreign MD.

You....can't force that designation, that's just ludicrous.

 

[deleted407021]

I agree. I guess its unfortunate then that they don't have a separate title for those who have a foreign MD.

They can really call the degree they grant anything they like.

 

[gumdrops]

I'm premed im not going to know every single fact about the differences.
why exactly is having a lower standards of admissions "the big issue here"? If all med schools accepted 34+ 3.80 gpa students then there would be a hell of a lot of people who undeservingly missed out on medicine due to cookie cutter requirements. take away the pseudoscience and AOA business and DOs with their admissions requirements would be on the same level as low to mid MD schools. What'd be the problem with that? DO schools provide a lot of students opportunities due to cookie-cutter admissions requirements, but they really should just be MD schools.

You're looking at SDN here and forgetting that the vast majority of "low-stats" applicants aren't the average SDN low-stat applicant, who often has an incredible redemption story that proves their readiness for a US MD school. Most low-stats applicants have low numbers and very little else that sets them apart. Thus the lower barrier to entry sadly often means a lower caliber of applicant.

 

[baconshrimps]

You're looking at SDN here and forgetting that the vast majority of "low-stats" applicants aren't the average SDN low-stat applicant, who often has an incredible redemption story that prove their readiness for a US MD school. Most low-stats applicants have low numbers and very little else that sets them apart. Thus the lower barrier to entry sadly often means a lower caliber of applicant.

@gumdrops 2016

 

[gumdrops]

@gumdrops 2016

You flatter, sir. 🙂 I'd be your running mate!

 

[bionerd89]

They can really call the degree they grant anything they like.

Lol true. But that is not what I meant.

 

[baconshrimps]

You flatter, sir. 🙂 I'd be your running mate!

With your virtues and my insatiable slightly cannibalistic appetite for bacon, we'll wreck civilization.

 

[gumdrops]

With your virtues and my insatiable slightly cannibalistic appetite for bacon, we'll wreck civilization.

Hunger is all that matters. 🙂

 

[baconshrimps]

Hunger is all that matters. 🙂

LET THE GAMES BEGIN.
Get it?

 

[gumdrops]

LET THE GAMES BEGIN.
Get it?

Give me a second.


😉

 

[deleted407021]

Give me a second.


😉

 

[gumdrops]

Oh noez a serious discussion on the state of American medical education was hijacked

 

[baconshrimps]

Oh noez a serious discussion on the state of American medical education was hijacked

As my runningmate for the 2016 presidential race, I think the single most important lesson you've taught me is that 'serious' has a very loose definition.

 

[deleted407021]

Oh noez a serious discussion on the state of American medical education was hijacked

Well we got bored and everyone knows these kinds of discussions get worn out before they even start.

 

[Beth_W737]

@baconshrimps what year are you or are you premed? 4th year DO student here, just like with MD schools there are various tiers, my school is one of the top in the country and better than a number of allo schools, we also have 2 in state allo schools and had the same stats and more applicants. You argue US MD is so much higher but there have been plenty of URM and other candidates accepted to allo schools with lower MCAT/GPA than many DO students. And that isn't even addressing the standards of PR med schools with avg of 20-22 MCAT. My school has an avg MCAT of about 30. Our grads go all over including Hopkins, Dartmouth, Harvard, Brown, Cleveland Clinic, etc.

I think you need to do some research before accepting the party line. Many of our grads do take USMLE as well. Most of the top tier DO schools are equal to some of the mid tier MD programs. Yes the bottom tier programs may have lower standards but like others have said, you shouldn't lose the chance to be a doctor because you made some mistakes in the past, if you brought up GPA and have a decent MCAT (high 20s to 30s) you deserve that chance just as much. I think we are making a mistake with this humongous focus on numbers

Also, my mentor who is an MD and world renowned in the AIDS community said he was told he'd been accepted by accident, meant to go in the wait list pile but got accepted. He's made huge discoveries and is the best doctor I know. Both he and Patch Adams have told me if they had to start over they would pick a DO school, they like the philosophy (not OMM but a more holistic approach and no cutthroat learning environment)

 

[baconshrimps]

@baconshrimps what year are you or are you premed? 4th year DO student here, just like with MD schools there are various tiers, my school is one of the top in the country and better than a number of allo schools, we also have 2 in state allo schools and had the same stats and more applicants. You argue US MD is so much higher but there have been plenty of URM and other candidates accepted to allo schools with lower MCAT/GPA than many DO students. And that isn't even addressing the standards of PR med schools with avg of 20-22 MCAT. My school has an avg MCAT of about 30. Our grads go all over including Hopkins, Dartmouth, Harvard, Brown, Cleveland Clinic, etc.

I think you need to do some research before accepting the party line. Many of our grads do take USMLE as well. Most of the top tier DO schools are equal to some of the mid tier MD programs. Yes the bottom tier programs may have lower standards but like others have said, you shouldn't lose the chance to be a doctor because you made some mistakes in the past, if you brought up GPA and have a decent MCAT (high 20s to 30s) you deserve that chance just as much. I think we are making a mistake with this humongous focus on numbers

Also, my mentor who is an MD and world renowned in the AIDS community said he was told he'd been accepted by accident, meant to go in the wait list pile but got accepted. He's made huge discoveries and is the best doctor I know. Both he and Patch Adams have told me if they had to start over they would pick a DO school, they like the philosophy (not OMM but a more holistic approach and no cutthroat learning environment)

Buddy, before you get all defensive, pay note and realize that I was merely stating how DO schools and the profession of osteopathy is currently perceived. I did not say this is my own opinion, in fact I provided a disclaimer. That said, everyone I know in DO school (I have 9 friends in various DO programs) and they all bemoan OMM and say it's not going to be a part of their medical practice. Further, what residency programs are you claiming these students are matching to? I don't care what institution you do your residency at - MGH is not necessarily renouned for its EM or Pathology program (neither of which are competitive specialties to begin with.) Also, I encourage you to visit this thread, before preaching to me about whether or not I should pass judgement on someone for their MCAT/GPA or their particular degree - because I wasn't. Once again, I was just pointing out what the current perception on DO's are. Something I did not know, howwever, is how defensive and whiney they can be. Jesus.

Also, as an example:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/emergencymedicine/residency/people/

The resident classes for JHU's EM program can be found here. There have been only 3 DOs admitted to the EM program at JHU over the past 4 years. That is a significant underrepresentation, but since you're about to graduate from medical school, absolutely feel free to be ignorant of the fact that D.O. discrimination is a real issue. I am not saying its ok, I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just acknowledging the fact that it's there.

Also, you are talking about "tiers" for DO schools, when there are like what, 30 programs out there? There are well over 130 MD schools, divided into rougly three tiers. Essentially, the entire consort of DO programs in sum has a representation of less than any one tier of the allopathic medical schools, and you are going to suggest there is some meaninful ranking amongst them?

 

[Beth_W737]

You recently posted a thread about how people shouldn't feel entitled, are a premed and post that the standards for DO are lower than MD. I'm sorry if I mistook your post but there are plenty of students who had MD acceptances and turned them down to go to a DO school. I am pointing out that there are some top tier DO programs where stats are on par with MD. We match into every specialty including ROAD. I'm sorry if I misjudged your post but you were stating some things that were incorrect, including about the merger which is putting all residencies under ACGME accreditation. The new residency merger is likely to decrease the DO bias even more.

 

[bionerd89]

Buddy, before you get all defensive, pay note and realize that I was merely stating how DO schools and the profession of osteopathy is currently perceived. I did not say this is my own opinion, in fact I provided a disclaimer. That said, everyone I know in DO school (I have 9 friends in various DO programs) and they all bemoan OMM and say it's not going to be a part of their medical practice. Further, what residency programs are you claiming these students are matching to? I don't care what institution you do your residency at - MGH is not necessarily renouned for its EM or Pathology program (neither of which are competitive specialties to begin with.) Also, I encourage you to visit this thread, before preaching to me about whether or not I should pass judgement on someone for their MCAT/GPA or their particular degree - because I wasn't. Once again, I was just pointing out what the current perception on DO's are. Something I did not know, howwever, is how defensive and whiney they can be. Jesus.

Also, as an example:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/emergencymedicine/residency/people/

The resident classes for JHU's EM program can be found here. There have been only 3 DOs admitted to the EM program at JHU over the past 4 years.

To be fair, it's pretty natural for someone to become defensive when they feel like their career and dreams are being criticized.

 

[baconshrimps]

You recently posted a thread about how people shouldn't feel entitled, are a premed and post that the standards for DO are lower than MD. I'm sorry if I mistook your post but there are plenty of students who had MD acceptances and turned them down to go to a DO school. I am pointing out that there are some top tier DO programs where stats are on par with MD. We match into every specialty including ROAD. I'm sorry if I misjudged your post but you were stating some things that were incorrect, including about the merger which is putting all residencies under ACGME accreditation. The new residency merger is likely to decrease the DO bias even more.

One more time, in case you missed it the first 3 times...I am stating that this is the perception of DO schools - that they have lower standards/may hold their students to lower standards. I am not claiming that I believe this. I am simply conveying this is the majority perception of DO schools. Continue misconstruing my statements. Please explain to me why you think the new merger is likely to decrease the DO bias? It is not as if there will be 'DO quotas' for residency programs, and even if program directors do invite DO's where they may not have previously, there is nothing to say the PD's will be require to rank the candidates. Until all of the old school PD's at the major hospitals retire or die, this DO discrimination will persist. It will be a very long time before any meaningful tipping point is approached, so try and be realistic about this merger if you want to have a meaningful discussion about it.

 

[TreadLightly]

Buddy, before you get all defensive, pay note and realize that I was merely stating how DO schools and the profession of osteopathy is currently perceived. I did not say this is my own opinion, in fact I provided a disclaimer. That said, everyone I know in DO school (I have 9 friends in various DO programs) and they all bemoan OMM and say it's not going to be a part of their medical practice. Further, what residency programs are you claiming these students are matching to? I don't care what institution you do your residency at - MGH is not necessarily renouned for its EM or Pathology program (neither of which are competitive specialties to begin with.) Also, I encourage you to visit this thread, before preaching to me about whether or not I should pass judgement on someone for their MCAT/GPA or their particular degree - because I wasn't. Once again, I was just pointing out what the current perception on DO's are. Something I did not know, howwever, is how defensive and whiney they can be. Jesus.

Also, as an example:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/emergencymedicine/residency/people/

The resident classes for JHU's EM program can be found here. There have been only 3 DOs admitted to the EM program at JHU over the past 4 years. That is a significant underrepresentation, but since you're about to graduate from medical school, absolutely feel free to be ignorant of the fact that D.O. discrimination is a real issue. I am not saying its ok, I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just acknowledging the fact that it's there.

Also, you are talking about "tiers" for DO schools, when there are like what, 30 programs out there? There are well over 130 MD schools, divided into rougly three tiers. Essentially, the entire consort of DO programs in sum has a representation of less than any one tier of the allopathic medical schools, and you are going to suggest there is some meaninful ranking amongst them?

Why are you schooling a 4th year DO student on how DOs are perceived by residency programs? There's something to be said about personal experience.

OP, the truth remains, that until DO schools up their standards for admission, they will likely continue to be looked down upon.

You're absolutely right that some DO schools have lower admissions standards than some MD schools. But it wouldn't be right to make a blanket statement. There are some state MD schools that have lower averages than some DO schools. And if you're going to look for "historically black" DO schools with questionable admissions standards, rest assured that you won't find any.

 

[baconshrimps]

Why are you schooling a 4th year DO student on how DOs are perceived by residency programs? There's something to be said about personal experience.



You're absolutely right that some DO schools have lower admissions standards than some MD schools. But it wouldn't be right to make a blanket statement. There are some state MD schools that have lower averages than some DO schools. And if you're going to look for "historically black" DO schools with questionable admissions standards, rest assured that you won't find any.

Some? I would say with the exception of a handful of newer MD programs and some state MD schools which act as the lone medical school in their state, the vast majority of DO schools have substantively lower average GPA and MCATs for their entering classes. For the record, this is not a judgement, it is a fact. We're talking about numbers people, before we get all up in arms at baconshrimps.

 

[Beth_W737]

Sorry but saying EM is not competitive is completely incorrect, EM is getting pretty competitive. Usually almost no spots left for SOAP. Is it on the level of derm, no but still getting much more competitive.

I didn't say DO bias does not exist, I said your commenting that most or all DO candidates have lower stats is incorrect. At least 5 DO programs, all well established, have many applicants that had stats for MD but often chose that school. I never said I liked OMM. And I never said there is no DO bias, I am saying the kind of judgement that goes on is often inaccurate, and yes there still are tiers. Most who know the DO schools would agree that some well established programs are equal to some MD schools in quality.

Is there bias, absolutely. But we have had people match into prestigious programs, and I love my school just as I am sure you will love yours.



quote="baconshrimps, post: 14980330, member: 591243"]Buddy, before you get all defensive, pay note and realize that I was merely stating how DO schools and the profession of osteopathy is currently perceived. I did not say this is my own opinion, in fact I provided a disclaimer. That said, everyone I know in DO school (I have 9 friends in various DO programs) and they all bemoan OMM and say it's not going to be a part of their medical practice. Further, what residency programs are you claiming these students are matching to? I don't care what institution you do your residency at - MGH is not necessarily renouned for its EM or Pathology program (neither of which are competitive specialties to begin with.) Also, I encourage you to visit this thread, before preaching to me about whether or not I should pass judgement on someone for their MCAT/GPA or their particular degree - because I wasn't. Once again, I was just pointing out what the current perception on DO's are. Something I did not know, howwever, is how defensive and whiney they can be. Jesus.

Also, as an example:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/emergencymedicine/residency/people/

The resident classes for JHU's EM program can be found here. There have been only 3 DOs admitted to the EM program at JHU over the past 4 years. That is a significant underrepresentation, but since you're about to graduate from medical school, absolutely feel free to be ignorant of the fact that D.O. discrimination is a real issue. I am not saying its ok, I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just acknowledging the fact that it's there.

Also, you are talking about "tiers" for DO schools, when there are like what, 30 programs out there? There are well over 130 MD schools, divided into rougly three tiers. Essentially, the entire consort of DO programs in sum has a representation of less than any one tier of the allopathic medical schools, and you are going to suggest there is some meaninful ranking amongst them?[/quote]
Al

 

[GUH]

Some of us who went the DO route actually want to be DO's.

 

[Beth_W737]

No, not true. My school, as posted, has equal stats among applicants to our 3 in state allo schools and more applications than any of them. Some DO programs do have equal stats to MD programs, and not just newer ones or lone in state. Take it from me, there are good med students and bad med students everywhere. You can't judge based on the degree, every person should be judged individually. And the new merger should alleviate some bias, all residents will be doing ACGME approved residencies in the future.


quote="baconshrimps, post: 14980367, member: 591243"]Some? I would say with the exception of a handful of newer MD programs and some state MD schools which act as the lone medical school in their state, the vast majority of DO schools have substantively lower average GPA and MCATs for their entering classes. For the record, this is not a judgement, it is a fact. We're talking about numbers people, before we get all up in arms at baconshrimps. [/quote]
S

 

[TreadLightly]

Some? I would say with the exception of a handful of newer MD programs and some state MD schools which act as the lone medical school in their state, the vast majority of DO schools have substantively lower average GPA and MCATs for their entering classes. For the record, this is not a judgement, it is a fact. We're talking about numbers people, before we get all up in arms at baconshrimps.

There are a significant number of schools with numbers lower than the "established" DO schools (which have average mcats ranging from 28-32). Here are a list of MD schools that have similar averages (according to SDN's martriculant's data):

South Alabama (29.1)
Arkansas (29.2)
Arizona-Tucson (29.1)
Florida Atlantic Univ (30)
Florida State (28)
Hawaii-Burns (30)
Illinois (30)
Southern Illinois (29)
Kansas (29)
KY-Louisville (29.1)
LSU Shreveport (29.5)
Michigan - Wayne State (29.8)
Michigan State (30)
East Carolina - Brody (29.7)
Nebraska (29.5)
North Dakota (28.7)
New Mexico (26.9)
Nevada (30)
NY - Buffalo (29)
OH - Wright State Boonshoft (30)
Northeastern Ohio (28.3)
PA - Commonwealth (30)
Penn State (29.1)
All 3 Puerto Rico schools
SC - Columbia (27.1)
SC - Greenville (29.9)
Tennessee (30)
East Tennessee Quillen (29.7)
Texas A & M (30)
UT HSC San Antonio (30)
Texas Tech (29.3)
Texas Tech-Foster (29.3)
Utah (30)
Eastern Virginia (30)
Virginia Commonwealth (29.3)
Vermont (30)
Marshall-Edwards (29.1)
West Virginia (28)
Quinnipiac-Frank Netter SOM (29)

Of course you will find these numbers vary from year to year as do the averages of DO schools. Forgive me for being too lazy to type up GPAs as well, but you'll find that they follow a similar trend. I don't have a convenient source for DO school numbers but they are usually found on individual school websites (I would be willing to create such a source but my excel skills ain't great, maybe someone could work with me).

 

[baconshrimps]

Sorry but saying EM is not competitive is completely incorrect, EM is getting pretty competitive. Usually almost no spots left for SOAP. Is it on the level of derm, no but still getting much more competitive.

I didn't say DO bias does not exist, I said your commenting that most or all DO candidates have lower stats is incorrect. At least 5 DO programs, all well established, have many applicants that had stats for MD but often chose that school. I never said I liked OMM. And I never said there is no DO bias, I am saying the kind of judgement that goes on is often inaccurate, and yes there still are tiers. Most who know the DO schools would agree that some well established programs are equal to some MD schools in quality.

Is there bias, absolutely. But we have had people match into prestigious programs, and I love my school just as I am sure you will love yours.



quote="baconshrimps, post: 14980330, member: 591243"]Buddy, before you get all defensive, pay note and realize that I was merely stating how DO schools and the profession of osteopathy is currently perceived. I did not say this is my own opinion, in fact I provided a disclaimer. That said, everyone I know in DO school (I have 9 friends in various DO programs) and they all bemoan OMM and say it's not going to be a part of their medical practice. Further, what residency programs are you claiming these students are matching to? I don't care what institution you do your residency at - MGH is not necessarily renouned for its EM or Pathology program (neither of which are competitive specialties to begin with.) Also, I encourage you to visit this thread, before preaching to me about whether or not I should pass judgement on someone for their MCAT/GPA or their particular degree - because I wasn't. Once again, I was just pointing out what the current perception on DO's are. Something I did not know, howwever, is how defensive and whiney they can be. Jesus.

Also, as an example:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/emergencymedicine/residency/people/

The resident classes for JHU's EM program can be found here. There have been only 3 DOs admitted to the EM program at JHU over the past 4 years. That is a significant underrepresentation, but since you're about to graduate from medical school, absolutely feel free to be ignorant of the fact that D.O. discrimination is a real issue. I am not saying its ok, I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just acknowledging the fact that it's there.

Also, you are talking about "tiers" for DO schools, when there are like what, 30 programs out there? There are well over 130 MD schools, divided into rougly three tiers. Essentially, the entire consort of DO programs in sum has a representation of less than any one tier of the allopathic medical schools, and you are going to suggest there is some meaninful ranking amongst them?

Al[/quote]

It seems that you and I have had very different experiences. As I stated previously, I have a number of friends in DO school. They are smart kids, but all have stated at one point or another that they would have rather attended an MD school. I am not saying that there aren't people who specifically sought out osteopathy, but by and large the majority of applicants to DO schools are applying as a back up in case they are unable to secure an MD acceptance. As far as tiers go, I think that is probably very internal. Much like noone can distinguish very much between the #3 MD school and the #27 MD school, I seriously doubt there is a stark difference between the top ranked DO school and the bottom ranked DO school, considering how narrow the range in # of schools is.

 

[baconshrimps]

There are a significant number of schools with numbers lower than the "established" DO schools (which have average mcats ranging from 28-32). Here are a list of MD schools that have similar averages (according to SDN's martriculant's data):

South Alabama (29.1)
Arkansas (29.2)
Arizona-Tucson (29.1)
Florida Atlantic Univ (30)
Florida State (28)
Hawaii-Burns (30)
Illinois (30)
Southern Illinois (29)
Kansas (29)
KY-Louisville (29.1)
LSU Shreveport (29.5)
Michigan - Wayne State (29.8)
Michigan State (30)
East Carolina - Brody (29.7)
Nebraska (29.5)
North Dakota (28.7)
New Mexico (26.9)
Nevada (30)
NY - Buffalo (29)
OH - Wright State Boonshoft (30)
Northeastern Ohio (28.3)
PA - Commonwealth (30)
Penn State (29.1)
All 3 Puerto Rico schools
SC - Columbia (27.1)
SC - Greenville (29.9)
Tennessee (30)
East Tennessee Quillen (29.7)
Texas A & M (30)
UT HSC San Antonio (30)
Texas Tech (29.3)
Texas Tech-Foster (29.3)
Utah (30)
Eastern Virginia (30)
Virginia Commonwealth (29.3)
Vermont (30)
Marshall-Edwards (29.1)
West Virginia (28)
Quinnipiac-Frank Netter SOM (29)

Of course you will find these numbers vary from year to year as do the averages of DO schools. Forgive me for being too lazy to type up GPAs as well, but you'll find that they follow a similar trend. I don't have a convenient source for DO school numbers but they are usually found on individual school websites (I would be willing to create such a source but my excel skills ain't great, maybe someone could work with me).

Okay, now go ahead and eliminate the schools which serve as the only public MD program in the state, as well as any "new" MD programs. You should also ignore PR. They are very self-serving and are largely not interested in applicants that are not hispanic or not from peurto rico. They are not generating physicians to serve the United States, they are generating physicians to serve Peurto Rico, hopefully.

 

[Beth_W737]

I also have a hard time with a premed posting about what residency directors prefer and what DO students need to get into an ACGMe program (which as stated will become a moot point as all AOA programs will become ACGME) Until you've made it through 4 years of medical school and gone through the residency process, I don't think you can judge the preference of PDs or even judge DO vs MD because you haven't worked with both in a clinical setting. I can say I rotated at a top hospital in USNWR and got honors but was honestly told that they still are biased, so yes it exists).

I want you to realize that you sound like you believe MD programs are superior and considering your recent post I find that surprising. My in state schools, as mentioned are not the only in state school, there are 3 allopathic schools. There had recently been a report on the 2 allopathic schools and our school (3rd allo is new, 2 years old) and our school was called a gem. It is very well regarded in our part of the country. And yes there is a HUGE difference between top DO programs like PCOM, Michigan, UMDNJ/Rowan with GPAs of 3.6+ and MCATs of 28-30 average but range up to high 30s vs newer DO schools with GPA of 3.0 and MCAT of 22-24. Not everyone uses DO as a backup. My school has a family environment, we have a good OPTI, our home residency has fellowships in almost everything (cardiology, GI, ID, Pulm, CC, etc). Please do more research, there is a difference. Top established DO programs are like comparing average mid tier MD to PR programs. Big difference between PCOM and new programs like Liberty or ACOM.


My mentor probably wouldn't be able to even get into med school today and yet has made huge contributions to AIDS research and is getting a doctor of the year award, he has received tons of accolades. Numbers are not everything. There will always be someone with better stats, that does not mean you cannot become a great doctor. That is all I've been trying to say. The attitude of bias most exists among premeds, yes some PDs are biased but I think part of that was because there were AOA residencies so some ACGME directors felt they should give preference to MDs. Ask most all attendings who work with both - no difference, it varies based on students.

 

[baconshrimps]

I also have a hard time with a premed posting about what residency directors prefer and what DO students need to get into an ACGMe program (which as stated will become a moot point as all AOA programs will become ACGME) Until you've made it through 4 years of medical school and gone through the residency process, I don't think you can judge the preference of PDs or even judge DO vs MD because you haven't worked with both in a clinical setting. I can say I rotated at a top hospital in USNWR and got honors but was honestly told that they still are biased, so yes it exists). I want you to realize that you sound like you believe MD programs are superior and considering your recent post I find that surprising. My in state schools, as mentioned are not the only in state school. And yes there is a HUGE difference between top DO programs like PCOM, Michigan, UMDNJ/Rowan with GPAs of 3.6+ and MCATs of 28-30 average but range up to high 30s vs newer DO schools with GPA of 3.0 and MCAT of 22-24. Not everyone uses DO as a backup. My school has a family environment, we have a good OPTI, our home residency has fellowships in almost everything (cardiology, GI, ID, Pulm, CC, etc). Please do more research, there is a difference. Top established DO programs are like comparing average mid tier MD to PR programs. Big difference between PCOM and new programs like Liberty or ACOM.


My mentor probably wouldn't be able to even get into med school today and yet has made huge contributions to AIDS research and is getting a doctor of the year award, he has received tons of accolades. Numbers are not everything. There will always be someone with better stats, that does not mean you cannot become a great doctor. That is all I've been trying to say. The attitude of bias most exists among premeds, yes some PDs are biased but I think part of that was because there were AOA residencies so some ACGME directors felt they should give preference to MDs. Ask most all attendings who work with both - no difference, it varies based on students.

So by your logic, when I was researching medical schools and preparing to apply, I wasn't in a position to make a judgement call on whether to apply to MD it DO? That's a good one.

I don't care about your mentor. You keep mentioning them as if they are relevant to this discussion, but they aren't. It's not as if I said "DOs contribute nothing to the medical community" in which case you could boast about your mentors accolades to your hearts content.

I believe I am informed enough about the residency application process that I really don't care what judgements you have to pass upon me. I already mentioned that not everyone used DO as a backup, but certainly the vast majority of DO applicants did. By the way, only applying DO because they know they aren't competitive for MD, counts as applying as a backup. Once again. I am not saying any of this to be disparaging, but rather whenever you assign an absolute to one of my comments or base the strength of a school on WHERE applicants are matching and not WHAT they are matching into, I'm going to bite back.

Okay, I'm going to go back to being awesome. Later yo.

 

[Beth_W737]

No, you don't have the right to state your 'research' on residency is superior to actually going through the process. You sure are quick to jump on the bandwagon once you actually got in. My point, as I have stated before, is that stats don't predict how good of a doctor you will become. They may somewhat predict your ability on standardized tests. Many of the old big name MDs would never get in today based on current stats. Whether you are DO or MD should not be anyone's sole criteria for judging how good a doctor you are. That's it. I think you will lose that belief once you actually finish 3-4 years of med school and have worked with both in a clinical setting. As stated, grads from my school match into every specialty, EM, Med-Peds, PM&R, IM, Peds, Surgery, Radiology, Anesthesia and so on, they weren't all primary care. We match about 50/50 primary vs specialty. I honestly find the judgement on SDN so frustrating, it is why I avoided it for the past 3+ years. Now I feel obligated to correct some misconceptions. And you were clearly
not well informed enough about residency process having posted inaccurate info about the merger. That's enough for me, I hope you go into med school with a more open mind.


quote="baconshrimps, post: 14980417, member: 591243"]So by your logic, when I was researching medical schools and preparing to apply, I wasn't in a position to make a judgement call on whether to apply to MD it DO? That's a good one.

I don't care about your mentor. You keep mentioning them as if they are relevant to this discussion, but they aren't. It's not as if I said "DOs contribute nothing to the medical community" in which case you could boast about your mentors accolades to your hearts content.

I believe I am informed enough about the residency application process that I really don't care what judgements you have to pass upon me. I already mentioned that not everyone used DO as a backup, but certainly the vast majority of DO applicants did. By the way, only applying DO because they know they aren't competitive for MD, counts as applying as a backup. Once again. I am not saying any of this to be disparaging, but rather whenever you assign an absolute to one of my comments or base the strength of a school on WHERE applicants are matching and not WHAT they are matching into, I'm going to bite back.

Okay, I'm going to go back to being awesome. Later yo.[/quote]
Y

 

[Dr. Zombie]

@Beth_W737 why are you wasting your time?

There are many premeds like @baconshrimps who like to make blanket statements based on google. He keeps saying "oh it's not my opinion but the opinion of others" ---a self-given license clearly from someone who probably never spoke with real directors and real residents and real students and real admissions members to make him better qualified to be a "spokesperson" but clearly is just showing off his own personal biases and putting it as "general facts"--especially statements towards admissions statistics which were inaccurate.

Attentive people will always value YOUR advice better because the only opinions that matter are of those who went through the process first hand. Keep up the good work as well as all of you upperclassmen.

 

[Beth_W737]

Thanks so much Dr Zombie, I appreciate it and am taking your advice. 🙂. Out of here, back to working in the peds ED.

 

[Gauss44]

I mean they share more in common than differences and the few differences just seem ridiculous (why are DOs at a disadvantage for certain residencies if they're supposed to be a 100% equivalent to MDs? Why are there two sets of accreditation exams?). I really don't see the harm in just making DOs MDs and maybe offering the special DO methodology courses at every med school and make DO methodology a special certification.

Why hasn't this been done? Even though DOs are gradually (if you look at the time scale it's gradual) becoming more and more equivalent to MDs all of the biases and lack of full equivalence could be eliminated by this. DOS also seem to jump through a few more arguably unnecessary hoops.

Also, both residency type programs merged, why cant DOs and MDs do the same?

From a marketing perspective, I don't know why no one's tried selling an MD/DO haha! (Like an MD/PhD...)

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Both he and Patch Adams have told me if they had to start over they would pick a DO school, they like the philosophy (not OMM but a more holistic approach and no cutthroat learning environment)

Patch Adams is a crazy person. Like, literally, terrifyingly crazy. The movie was cute and all, but bears little resemblance to the actual person.

Edit: And the bolded is the most BS part of this whole argument, and one of the real reasons DO and MD are unlikely to merge. A lot of DOs engage in this self-congratulatory back-patting about their holistic approach and how they are more empathic, etc, etc. Even the whole term "allopathic" is an underhanded insult to MDs. A lot of it is a psychologic defense mechanism developed in response to the general idea that DOs are somehow inferior, and it is highly ingrained in the leadership of DO schools.