Why even have MD if DO=MD+ more training?

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I think it's really just that they have two very different philosophies. Combining MD and DO because they both have doctoring at their core is like combining democrats and republicans because they both have leadership at their core.

Different strokes.
 
Venom5 said:
Why are the standards of DO schools lower than MD schools? I never understood this. I would imagine because the standards are lower a lot of people look down on DOs.
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The only people I've come across with this attitude are MD students, who pick and choose what they hear and use it to indiscriminately bash on DO's students and/or Carribean students.

In real life, I might converse with MD students who honestly have no idea what they are talking about, but if it comes off as an intentional slight and I aggressively confront them about it, most turn into little pansies.

Anyway it has nothing to do with MD vs DO, as far as practice rights are concerned; I'll make the same as someone else in the same specialty, in the same region.

You'll find that people in general just like finding ways of looking down on others. It makes them feel good. If it's not an MD vs DO thing, it's your classmate saying that someone scored higher than them on the boards only because he/she had three more days to study for it, or equating memorizing tons of random facts with universal intelligence, or saying someone is fat, or ugly, or stupid.

What else can you do but backhand these people in the face and push them out the door.
 
boggvir said:
That's not what we are talking about. You don't need a phd to run a clinical trial - an md or do can do those things (and they do in the vast majority of cases).
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are you ignorant or did you suffer major head trauma as a baby?

edit: this thread is pointless. do = md = rn = emt = jesus
 
no, no one forgot chuck norris. That joke is so damn played out my mother uses them on a regular basis.
 
random cell said:
are you ignorant or did you suffer major head trauma as a baby?
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Calm down skippy. You don't need a phd to run clinical trials and you don't need a md to do bench research. And translational research is more a buzzword rather than an actual definable discipline....

I'm getting a md/phd and I'm not saying it isn't important but let's not overplay it. According to the stats provided at most interviews - 50% don't even go into research and of those that do, many do things that could be done by MDs (eg trials) or pure PhDs (bench research). Again, I think it's nice to have a perspective on both sides of the aisle so to speak and that's why I'm getting one but let's not go overboard here. If the whole thing was abolished, medical research (let alone research in general) would pretty much go on as usual with very minor corrections.
 
boggvir said:
That's not what we are talking about. You don't need a phd to run a clinical trial - an md or do can do those things (and they do in the vast majority of cases).
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...a clinical trial? This is one part of the huge amount of research done by MDs. This is kind of a silly thing to argue about since it is all theoretical, but I suggest you do some more investigation on this topic.
 
BJJ said:
no, no one forgot chuck norris. That joke is so damn played out my mother uses them on a regular basis.
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I want you to appreciate that I'm stifling the even more overused "your mom" joke in my head. :laugh:
 
thepoopologist said:
The only people I've come across with this attitude are MD students, who pick and choose what they hear and use it to indiscriminately bash on DO's students and/or Carribean students.
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There is much more negativity towards DOs among MDs than you are making it out to be. It really is unfortunate, since we have a shortage of physicians in America and DOs help a lot of people. While a DO and MD degree may not mean the same thing at a cocktail party, no one cares what degree you have when a neonate has respiratory distress syndrome and you are the only one there to help.
 
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Decicco said:
There is much more negativity towards DOs among MDs than you are making it out to be. It really is unfortunate, since we have a shortage of physicians in America and DOs helps a lot of people. While a DO and MD degree may not mean the same thing at a cocktail party, no one cares what degree you have when a neonate comes into the ER with RDS and you are the only one there to help.
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This is one of the reasons I find it so hypocritical that schools like Michigan won't accept DOs into their residencies, but they will hire them after residency
-_-

Screw cocktail parties. most americans aren't classy enough for cocktail parties anyway🙄
 
Decicco said:
While a DO and MD degree may not mean the same thing at a cocktail party, no one cares what degree you have when a neonate comes into the ER with RDS and you are the only one there to help.
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Neonates come into the ER with "RDS"?😕

As an aside, you are correct about the theme of your post, there are a boatload of DO neonatologists. No one cares at all. Really. Believe it or not. Top programs routinely accept DO trained physicians into their neo fellowships, etc, etc and so forth.
 
DO is not equal to MD in my eyes. I think DOs are excellent physcians. However, the AAMC does more to help promote diversity in medicine (which is the reason I want to be a doctor). Also, all of the nations public medical schools (which focus on inner city and state medical education by charter) are MD. All DOs are private.
 
serenade said:
This really is a non-point. Most nations which do not recognize an USDO will not recognize a USMD and furthermore many nations do recognize them.
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This is false. Every nation recognizes the traditional medical degree which is MD in the united states and MBBS in foreign nations but not all countries recognize the D.O degree. France for example.

Here is a link to check it for yourself.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a.../Pages/international-practice-rights-map.aspx
 
Espadaleader said:
DO is not equal to MD in my eyes. I think DOs are excellent physcians. However, the AAMC does more to help promote diversity in medicine (which is the reason I want to be a doctor). Also, all of the nations public medical schools (which focus on inner city and state medical education by charter) are MD. All DOs are private.
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False. MSU College of Osteopathic Medicine was the world's first publicly funded college of osteopathic medicine.

http://onthebanks.msu.edu/Exhibit/1-6-5/college-of-osteopathic-med/
 
MD and DO needs to be separate degrees because you shouldn't force people to learn osteopathic techniques. I think most DO doctors will agree that the fundamental assumptions of the DO discipline (all disease stems from structural problems) is outdated. There are probably useful aspects of it in backpain and neck pain, etc, but craniosacral therapy?

DO is MD + Chiropractic manipulations.
 
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iniquus said:
Edit: And not to shout a school out, but look at this DO school. Really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Touro-college-harlem.jpg
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hollywood-upstairs-medical-college.png
 
👍 And whoever posted that jpg of Touro up, that's a low blow man, low blow. I have to say though, I did laugh. :laugh:
oldbearprofessor said:
Neonates come into the ER with "RDS"?😕

As an aside, you are correct about the theme of your post, there are a boatload of DO neonatologists. No one cares at all. Really. Believe it or not. Top programs routinely accept DO trained physicians into their neo fellowships, etc, etc and so forth.
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Espadaleader said:
DO is not equal to MD in my eyes. I think DOs are excellent physcians. However, the AAMC does more to help promote diversity in medicine (which is the reason I want to be a doctor). Also, all of the nations public medical schools (which focus on inner city and state medical education by charter) are MD. All DOs are private.
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this is nonsense the only thing the AAMC does is promote lining their pockets with $$$.

I would wager that DO schools have more diversity than MD schools (as far as student populations) due to having more forgiving admissions requirements.
 
It was just a facilities joke, lol. I have no qualms in trusting fellow DO physicians when I practice.
 
Decicco said:
There is much more negativity towards DOs among MDs than you are making it out to be. It really is unfortunate, since we have a shortage of physicians in America and DOs help a lot of people. While a DO and MD degree may not mean the same thing at a cocktail party, no one cares what degree you have when a neonate has respiratory distress syndrome and you are the only one there to help.
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The point I was making is that I don't care what MDs or anybody else think as long as I have the same practice rights, am paid an equivalent salary, and DO's have a lobby in Washington DC.

People will have their opinions, and they will come from people I know and respect and people I couldn't care whether they lived or died. 99.9% of these opinions can't change the fact that I'll finish residency (an MD or DO one) with at least a six figure salary working as a physician.
 
I don't even...but why would...didn't you think..........oh wat the ****.

472.gif
 
Agreed op.

I think all md schools should be shut down asap to boot.
 
ozzi22 said:
This is false. Every nation recognizes the traditional medical degree which is MD in the united states and MBBS in foreign nations but not all countries recognize the D.O degree. France for example.

Here is a link to check it for yourself.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a.../Pages/international-practice-rights-map.aspx
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This idiotic argument for example.

Like I care which foreign countries recognize my degree. Physicians make the most money in the U.S. I don't think most people enter a US medical school wondering whether they can practice elsewhere. I'm not planning on practicing in France, although I like Paris and plan to visit often when I can afford it.
 
Dr Oops said:
I would wager that DO schools have more diversity than MD schools (as far as student populations) due to having more forgiving admissions requirements.
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I am pretty sure one of the reasons why md schools do not like the dos admission policy is because those stats are made public. I mean, say a school like Harvard used the "forgiving admissions requirements" policy, and then the stats for the entering class get released at the end of the year....the reputation of the school would fall down all the way to hell. Someone being accepted that had to retake classes?! That would go against the whole "This school is number one, because of the high academic standards!"😱

Stats are important, it helps pay the tuition and fund the research and pretty buildings.

DO schools worry about making doctors, MD schools do that and also worry about how said doctors will make their school look better.

In the end, it's just business, everyone wants to earn their share, whether you call it for-profit or not.
 
thepoopologist said:
This idiotic argument for example.

Like I care which foreign countries recognize my degree. Physicians make the most money in the U.S. I don't think most people enter a US medical school wondering whether they can practice elsewhere. I'm not planning on practicing in France, although I like Paris and plan to visit often when I can afford it.
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😕 i don't get your argument. i am a foreigner and international practice rights is something i consider. The fact that D.O's are not recognize in my country is a major reason i would prefer not to go the D.O route. D.O's are excellent physicians and if you plan on practicing in the U.S then absolutely consider D.O's equivalently as MD's.
 
Espadaleader said:
DO is not equal to MD in my eyes. I think DOs are excellent physcians. However, the AAMC does more to help promote diversity in medicine (which is the reason I want to be a doctor). Also, all of the nations public medical schools (which focus on inner city and state medical education by charter) are MD. All DOs are private.
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The last time I checked there were six public DO schools. Someone needs to get their facts straight 🙄
 
In the real world, no one cares what your degree is. They care if you can provide the service needed. When I consult a cardiologist I couldn't care less if she's an MD or a DO. I just care that she is a competent cardiologist who will treat my patient kindly and write me a nice letter explaining what they've done or recommend. I also don't care if they're trained in OMM or if they did a Med/Peds residency and are certified for kids, too. None of that makes them a better cardiologist and is irrelevant to me. Frankly, I'm too busy to have time to worry about stuff like that. You could have a great pedigree with all top 10 schools and training, but treat my patient poorly and don't keep me in the loop of what you're planning to do and I'll stop referring to you.

All this talk about "plus" this and "plus" that is ridiculous banter of pre-medical students justifying one degree path versus the other and trying to stroke an ego from whichever side of the fence they sit on. Pull that crap in residency or when you land in your first practice...well, hopefully by then you'll be mature enough to not be so narrow minded.
 
MeowMeowCAT said:
Since I don't have any experience in terms of either schools I am just talking from the admission perspective. Your application basically gets eaten alive by the aamc, whereas with the DO's equivalent you can still get in even without the perfect stats.

So when you look at the fact that both still get to have basically the same medical education, it is kind of comforting to have DO around.
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For the applicant or the patient?

Captain Fantastic said:
In the real world, no one cares what your degree is.
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Knowing the difference between MD and DO but not caring is not the same as not caring because you do not the difference.
 
SisterDisco08 said:
This is one of the reasons I find it so hypocritical that schools like Michigan won't accept DOs into their residencies, but they will hire them after residency
-_-

Screw cocktail parties. most americans aren't classy enough for cocktail parties anyway🙄
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This isn't the negativity I was referring to. It seems reasonable to me that a research heavy school like Michigan would select MDs (especially since residents put out a ton of research at these schools).
 
0kazak1 said:
Knowing the difference between MD and DO but not caring is not the same as not caring because you do not the difference.
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I know the difference and don't care. I've been treated by both and found them equally competent. Actually, it was a DO who helped the most with my migraines 12 years ago because of a pinched nerve in my neck that was contributing to the issue.

For the record, I plan on going MD, but that is only because of the increased residency opportunities. If they were totally equal in that respect I would be completely ambivalent about the choice.
 
NightGod said:
I know the difference and don't care. I've been treated by both and found them equally competent. Actually, it was a DO who helped the most with my migraines 12 years ago because of a pinched nerve in my neck that was contributing to the issue.

For the record, I plan on going MD, but that is only because of the increased residency opportunities. If they were totally equal in that respect I would be completely ambivalent about the choice.
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Well... duh.
 
NickNaylor said:
Well... duh.
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My point being that the post I was directly replying to was implying that people who knew the difference between an MD and a DO might choose differently than someone who just knew they were going to see a doctor. I just took it to the next level and said that I not only knew the difference between them, but that I would be equally happy with either degree if it wasn't for the decreased residency opportunities for DOs.
 
I'm a DO students and my brother's a MD. So I've seen both sides so to speak. So the differences:
(1) As a DO you wont be able to go into some fields like Integrated Plastic Surgery. But then again, 95% of students in USMD schools wont be able to either due to grades and usmle scores. So as a DO, you have 100% chance of not getting in, while MD has 95% chance of not getting in. But if you're interested in things like Anesthesia, EM, there's plenty of DO's getting residency in those fields. For things like ortho, neurosurg, derm, there's DO funded residencies. So if you're a pre-med, in top 5%, and you're 100% sure you want to go into Plastics, you should probably go to MD school. But for things like IM, EM, neuro, peds, psych, a DO degree wont hold you back provided you have the grades.

(2) OMM + omm lab takes 3hr/wk so doesnt take away from our learning time in other classes. But I'll admit, we do get less histology, not that I care much for histo.
 
NickNaylor said:
ITT: DOs defend DO programs, MDs minimize important of DOs

We're done here.
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Yeah... anyone is gonna defend their program or try to denigrate the status of another program.

Carib school grads are probably receiving an equal if not better pre-clinical education. Their profs usually wrote the book on the subject matter.

So, in the end. MD=DO.
 
SisterDisco08 said:
I think it's really just that they have two very different philosophies. Combining MD and DO because they both have doctoring at their core is like combining democrats and republicans because they both have leadership at their core.

Different strokes.
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Osteopathy began as an offshoot from allo due to differing philosophy. Those philosophies have more or less eroded and the current generation of osteo grads often want into allopathic medicine residencies to practice with the same philosophy as MDs. In other words it was an interesting idea that failed the test of time. Which is why merging these wayward children back into the parent allopathic profession probably would be workable at this juncture. Find me one DO coming out of an allopathic residency who really believes he has a different philosophy than his coresidents. You won't. He regards himself as equivalent not just in education, but in philosophy as well. He most likely will keep the OMM forever in his back pocket, never to be used after med school graduation.
 
Valid point brought up. Osteopathy was a valiant effort. But more and more people are coming back to allopathic residencies.

I've heard stories of people going DO because the tuition was cheaper for them. Then coming back to do an allopathic residency. It happens all the time.

It's sad that OMM just gets back pocketed though. That's one of the major differences between the two I guess. I've never had my diaphragm released. But I love my chiropractor, saved me a lot of pain and suffering during my athletic career.
 
Law2Doc said:
Osteopathy began as an offshoot from allo due to differing philosophy. Those philosophies have more or less eroded and the current generation of osteo grads often want into allopathic medicine residencies to practice with the same philosophy as MDs. In other words it was an interesting idea that failed the test of time. Which is why merging these wayward children back into the parent allopathic profession probably would be workable at this juncture. Find me one DO coming out of an allopathic residency who really believes he has a different philosophy than his coresidents. You won't. He regards himself as equivalent not just in education, but in philosophy as well. He most likely will keep the OMM forever in his back pocket, never to be used after med school graduation.
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Excellent post. This is my main beef with my the AOA. Time to face the music guys and recognize what TODAY'S osteopathic graduates wants...even if it doesnt conform to your outdated beliefs of what osteopathic should be.
 
CodeBlu said:
Valid point brought up. Osteopathy was a valiant effort. But more and more people are coming back to allopathic residencies.

I've heard stories of people going DO because the tuition was cheaper for them. Then coming back to do an allopathic residency. It happens all the time.

It's sad that OMM just gets back pocketed though. That's one of the major differences between the two I guess. I've never had my diaphragm released. But I love my chiropractor, saved me a lot of pain and suffering during my athletic career.
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A lot of people like to argue about OMMs effectiveness. But aside from all that, the modern day DO grad simply doesnt have the time to use, and stay proficient in OMM techniques. Its just not a real practical treatment modality in modern day medicine...where physicians are pushed to see more patients per day than ever. It is much easier, (and more practical) to cut the patient a referral to see a orthopod/pt than spend 30 minutes+ doing OMM techniques that may not may not work (more often than not wont work in my experience)
 
thepoopologist said:
This idiotic argument for example.

Like I care which foreign countries recognize my degree. Physicians make the most money in the U.S. I don't think most people enter a US medical school wondering whether they can practice elsewhere. I'm not planning on practicing in France, although I like Paris and plan to visit often when I can afford it.
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Not everyone who gets their MD/DO in the US is a US citizen who plans to stay here.
 
TheProwler said:
Not everyone who gets their MD/DO in the US is a US citizen who plans to stay here.
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Yeah..but the goal of most medical schools and especially osteopathic medical schools is to educate physicians who will stick around to treat patients in the US is it not?

I would say this is definitely a factor to consider...but im sure only a gross minority actually plan on leaving the states.
 
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