Will Trump win again???

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DISCRIMINATION AND DISPARITIES
By Thomas Sowell
Basic Books, $28, 179 pages


Thomas Sowell, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution who has taught economics at Cornell, UCLA and Amherst, is the author of numerous books on subjects as diverse as philosophy, history and decision-making theory. His book, “Basic Economics,” has been translated into six languages. He is a contributor to numerous publications, a syndicated columnist and one of those very rare economists who can communicate with laymen in clear, direct and vigorous prose.
That he served in the Marine Corps during the Korean War, bringing him into daily contact with people many of his academic colleagues know only in the abstract, may help to explain his ability to communicate effectively with an audience infrequently reached by academic economists.

And that he is also black may reinforce his ability to speak honestly and objectively as he does on the disparities of race that increasingly distort our national debate, providing fuel to demagogues on both sides of the issue.
In “Discrimination and Disparities,” Mr. Sowell challenges believers in one-factor explanations, among them discrimination, exploitation or genetics, for differences in economic outcomes.
“At one end of a spectrum of explanations is the belief that those who have been less fortunate and their outcomes are genetically less capable. At the other end of the spectrum, is the belief that those less fortunate are victims of other people who are more fortunate. Yet the great disparities in outcomes need not be due to either comparable disparities in innate capabilities or comparable disparities in the way people are treated by people.”
That’s not to deny that the treatment of others isn’t a factor in human development — at times a decisive one. Factors such as racial discrimination, for instance, have been with us through recorded history. As Mr. Sowell points out, when the Roman Empire flourished, its citizens looked down on their British and Germanic counterparts as illiterate skin-wearing sub-humans, members of an obviously inferior race.
And in contrast to how skin color and geography are viewed today by some of our contemporaries, Mr. Sowell quotes a Muslim scholar from the 10th century, who noted that Europeans not only became paler as you traveled north, but “‘the farther they are to the north the more stupid, gross and brutish they are.’”
There’s an important lesson here and running through Mr. Sowell’s detailed analysis of peoples, governments, social and economic forces, ideas, statistics and the history of human progress: “The past must be understood in its own context. It cannot be seen as if its context were just like the context of the present, but with events taking place in an earlier time.”
He quotes Edmund Burke: “‘In history a great volume is unrolled for our instruction, drawing the materials of future wisdom from past errors and infirmities of mankind.’” But Burke also warned that “‘the past could also be a means of keeping alive, or reviving, dissensions and animosities.’”
This could well be the case today, with the issue of slavery, ended in this country a century and a half ago in a bloody civil war, but often resurrected politically as if the cast of mind that accepted it still prevails today. To be sure, it’s a stain on the historical record, but the past is the past, and the living cannot be held responsible for the deeds of those long dead.
As Mr. Sowell writes, “Nothing the Germans can do today will in any way mitigate the staggering evils of what Hitler did in the past. Nor can apologies in America today for slavery in the past have any meaning, much less do any good, for either blacks or whites today.”
“The only times over which we have any degree of influence at all are the present and future — both of which can be made worse by attempts at symbolic restitution among the living for what happened among the dead To admit that we can do nothing about what happened among the dead is not to give up the struggle for a better world, but to concentrate our efforts where they have at least some hope of making things better for the living.”
 
Here is a quote from black liberal Harvard sociology professor Orlando Patterson, who 28 years ago wrote: "The sociological truths are that America...offers more opportunities to a greater number of black persons than any other society, including all those of Africa."

Blade: really?

Just based on population, this is a ridiculous statement. "...to a greater number of black persons than any other society, including all those in Africa."

Really? Just take a look at the demographics of Africa and then defend the statement.

And, if you choose to defend the idea that America offers more opportunities" (ignoring 'to a greater number'), let me remind you of the population of black South Africans: 34 million. And, please don't tell me that the majority of black SA don't have sufficient opportunities...I am happy to add the black population of Ethiopia, Nigeria, and Egypt.

Yes, the grand USA may be the least "racist white-majority" country. Woo hoo! We win! (although I think that Iceland and so many others would disagree)

HH
 
Blade: really?

Just based on population, this is a ridiculous statement. "...to a greater number of black persons than any other society, including all those in Africa."

Really? Just take a look at the demographics of Africa and then defend the statement.

And, if you choose to defend the idea that America offers more opportunities" (ignoring 'to a greater number'), let me remind you of the population of black South Africans: 34 million. And, please don't tell me that the majority of black SA don't have sufficient opportunities...I am happy to add the black population of Ethiopia, Nigeria, and Egypt.

Yes, the grand USA may be the least "racist white-majority" country. Woo hoo! We win! (although I think that Iceland and so many others would disagree)

HH

I believe the statement was meant in context of offering those minorities who work hard, study and apply themselves in our system will be rewarded with success. The chance of success is still higher for each individual here in the USA than anywhere else in the world. And yes, we are the least racist white majority nation in the world.
 
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And yes, we are the least racist white majority nation in the world.

I love the USA too.

However, I disagree with your quoted statement (which I think is based on someone else's assessment).

Do you really think that we (USA) are less racist than Iceland, for example?

HH
 
I believe the statement was meant in context of offering those minorities who work hard, study and apply themselves in our system will be rewarded with success. The chance of success is still higher for each individual here in the USA than anywhere else in the world. And yes, we are the least racist white majority nation in the world.


Agree the United States is less racist than most other nations. Still there is racism and we should strive to improve.
 
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Anyone who thinks being black in a country that is 99% white won't encounter racism is simply wrong.

“When people have asked me how I’m getting along in Iceland, I try and bring in something about my experience as a person of colour, because that’s a big part of my identity” Jewells says. “When I’m walking down the street, I want to be considered a regular person like everyone else, but the stares are real, and sometimes they’re much more prolonged than I think is OK. They might stare a little bit longer because they’re curious and they don’t realise what they’re doing, and it feels strange because you’re usually not getting a smile.”
Be sensitive to the fact that when we talk about being a person of colour, being Black, this is meaningful for us because there are so few of us in places like this. This has more to do with building a community and feeling like you can share experiences with other people.”
Jewells says she prefers to deal with the ignorance she has encountered on a case by case basis. Sometimes this means trying to diffuse or dismiss the situation with a joke; other times it can mean confronting the ignorance directly. Either way, an internal struggle can often emerge.
“That’s the hardest part, because sometimes people who are victims of ignorance or racism assume it’s their fault, because you’re the one who’s different,” she says. “You’re part of the minority. So sometimes just my existence feels like I’m doing something wrong because people are so unaware of what it’s like to just exist as this person.”

 
Agree the United States less racist than most other nations. Still there is racism and we should strive to improve.

If you haven't read anything by Thomas Sowell on this subject then your perspective is being clouded by the media. Sowell is a genius who happens to be black and writes some of the best books on the topics of economics and its implications for black Americans.
 
Here is a quote from black liberal Harvard sociology professor Orlando Patterson, who 28 years ago wrote: "The sociological truths are that America, while still flawed in its race relations ... is now the least racist white-majority society in the world; has a better record of legal protection of minorities than any other society, white or black; offers more opportunities to a greater number of black persons than any other society, including all those of Africa."

1. It's arguable that Patterson fits neatly into a liberal or conservative box.

2. That quote is from a 1991 op-ed in which Patterson defends Clarence Thomas by saying that he probably did all the terrible things Hill accused him of but he should get confirmed anyway because that's how men are and women are too sexy to not get hit on constantly in the workplace.

 
If you haven't read anything by Thomas Sowell on this subject then your perspective is being clouded by the media. Sowell is a genius who happens to be black and writes some of the best books on the topics of economics and its implications for black Americans.


I’ve watched his YouTube interviews for years.
 
This simple fact that you believe the “fact” that 1 in 4 women are raped in America makes it really hard to discuss “facts.”

Seriously, how do you go throughout the day without popping Xanax like tic tacs? You believe you live in a country where everyone is racist, everyone is oppressed, and 25% of women are raped?! Geez, if I believed what you do I’d be so stressed and depressed I don’t think I could go on.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think the headline is a little more nuanced but it's still a crazy high percentage of women who have experienced some form of sexual assault

"
Nearly 20% of women in the US are raped or suffer attempted rape at some point in their lives, a US study says.

Even more women, estimated at 25%, have been attacked by a partner or husband, the Centers for Disease Control said."

 
Anyone who thinks being black in a country that is 99% white won't encounter racism is simply wrong.



Please don't move the goalposts.

There is a HUGE 😉 difference between "won't encounter racsim" and

And yes, we are the least racist white majority nation in the world.

This kind of argument is part of what creates such division in our country.

HH
 
This simple fact that you believe the “fact” that 1 in 4 women are raped in America makes it really hard to discuss “facts.”


cdc.png


The CDC defined rape as follows:
Rape is any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent. Rape is separated into three types: completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, and completed alcohol- or drug-facilitated penetration. Among women, rape includes vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes vaginal or anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object. Among men, rape includes oral or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.


Obviously there are limits to retrospective survey studies conducted by random telephone call. The authors acknowledge the risk of non-response bias and argue that this would likely lead to an underestimate of the prevalence of rape. I don't know if I buy the researchers' bias in assessing the bias in their study 🙂 but I don't have any difficulty believing that the lifetime risk for a US woman to be a victim of rape or attempted rape is in the neighborhood of 1 in 4 or 5.
 
Here is a quote from black liberal Harvard sociology professor Orlando Patterson, who 28 years ago wrote: "The sociological truths are that America, while still flawed in its race relations ... is now the least racist white-majority society in the world; has a better record of legal protection of minorities than any other society, white or black; offers more opportunities to a greater number of black persons than any other society, including all those of Africa."
Not sure if that is true anymore. 28 years is a long time. And the current CIC in the white House embodies none of that


Crucially, the Nordic economic model reassures the ethnic majority that immigrants are not a threat to their well-being, while at the same time maximizing the chance for minorities to be successful. It is this combination that makes it possible to win.

The American economic model guarantees division and gives the economic elite opportunity to play groups off against each other, reinforcing and strengthening racism that already exists.

Trump played that to the T.

 
Not sure if that is true anymore. 28 years is a long time. And the current CIC in the white House embodies none of that

That's a fairly interesting article. I'd been wondering about some of that recently - specifically about the Syrian refugee problems that some European countries were experiencing at first but I had not heard much about in the last year or so.

I like the idea of essentially spreading immigrants around. You'd need enough services to acclimate people (almost certainly to include English language classes), but there's definitely value in that. I think your average not-big-city American would likely be more tolerant if they interacted with minorities on a regular basis in a positive way.

But that massive expansion in social services would be a hard sell
 
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I love the USA too.

However, I disagree with your quoted statement (which I think is based on someone else's assessment).

Do you really think that we (USA) are less racist than Iceland, for example?

HH
I would bet we are. Small nations (or communities) are usually much more intolerant against foreigners; it's human nature. That's why minorities flourish in (former) empires, and tend to be persecuted in smaller places. That's why Trump wins in rural America, not in the metropolitan one.

This will be very progressively incorrect, but I'll say it: one of the (perceived) problems with African Americans is that they don't appreciate all the opportunities this country offers them, and instead focus on the negatives and keep asking for more. This may be due to a lack of education, which anchors them in poverty (newsflash: it also anchors whites). It may be also cultural: there is this national obsession with the bad white man. Most whites I have met in this country seem more tolerant by orders of magnitude than whites in other civilized countries (including American immigrants from those countries). It's enough to look at the number of racial minorities in powerful executive, legislative or judicial positions in various countries.

The number one thing that pisses me off about the MAGA slogan is that it assumes this country is not great. You guys have no idea how great it is!
 
That's a fairly interesting article. I'd been wondering about some of that recently - specifically about the Syrian refugee problems that some European countries were experiencing at first but I had not heard much about in the last year or so.

I like the idea of essentially spreading immigrants around. You'd need enough services to acclimate people (almost certainly to include English language classes), but there's definitely value in that. I think your average not-big-city American would likely be more tolerant if they interacted with minorities on a regular basis in a positive way.

But that massive expansion in social services would be a hard sell
There is also an important European component that Americans are missing: integration and assimilation. The European countries where immigrants have been successful assimilated and integrated them. And the other way round: successful immigrants usually are assimilated ones. That's also one of the reasons why immigrants should be spread around, and there should be no "Chinatowns" or "ghettos" anywhere.

Anywhere immigrants are not only allowed, but also encouraged, to keep their language and customs, as in America, intolerance will soon and naturally follow. It's just a matter of time. It's absolutely STUPID to believe otherwise. The success of the 20th century America was based on controlled immigration with strong assimilation into the American fabric. That's why, if you look at European immigrants back then, their offspring lost the mother tongue and culture; they became AMERICANS. This is one of the most tolerant countries in the world, imperfect as it is. Nobody is; it's a human instinct to agglutinate with similar and stay away from different.

Anybody who can't make it here, can't make it because s/he doesn't WANT to become an AMERICAN. They just want to be American citizens, and enjoy all the benefits of this great country, without changing. That's where I agree with the MAGA people. When in Rome... Yes, that may include giving popular American names to children (instead of ethnic names), that may include adopting a local religion (instead of your minority one), that MUST include speaking English (because that's part of the fabric of this nation) etc. WTF are they doing in America otherwise? Colonizing?

Theodore Roosevelt’s ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.
“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American … There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag … We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language … and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
 
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Trump vs Obama

Who is more corrupt?
I think you pretty much need to use a logarithmic scale to capture Trump's magnitude of corruption compared to anyone in the last several decades, president wise.

The guy is still fighting to release his tax returns, wouldn't put this assets in a blind trust, and literally doubled mar a Lago initiation fees after he got elected president.
 
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There is also an important European component that Americans are missing: integration and assimilation. That's also one of the reasons why immigrants should be spread around, and there should be no "Chinatowns" or "ghettos" anywhere.

Anywhere immigrants are not only allowed, but also encouraged, to keep their language and customs, as in America, intolerance will soon and naturally follow. It's just a matter of time. It's absolutely STUPID to believe otherwise. The success of the 20th century America was based on controlled immigration with strong assimilation into the American fabric. That's why, if you look at European immigrants back then, their offspring lost the mother tongue and culture; they became AMERICANS. This is one of the most tolerant countries in the world, imperfect as it is.

Anybody who can't make it here, can't make it because s/he doesn't WANT to become an AMERICAN. They just want to be American citizens, and enjoy all the benefits of this great country, without changing. That's where I agree with the MAGA people. When in Rome... Yes, that may include giving popular American names to children (instead of ethnic names), that may include adopting a local religion (instead of your minority one), that MUST include speaking English (because that's part of the fabric of this nation) etc. WTF are they doing in America otherwise? Colonizing?
Man, with all due respect, you are not very accurate in your statements.
That assimilation you mentioned in Europe has miserably failed in countries like France, Spain, Germany, and England.
They have ghettos of poor immigrants where the police is afraid to intervene and crime of all kinds is rampant. These ghettos continue to be a very fertile environment for radicals, terrorists and outlaws.
The true solution to Immigration is to help people stay in their countries by having a global view at the world, not by continuing to stir religious, and political conflicts and supply weapons to all those who want to fight in hot areas of the world.
The world is no longer isolated populations unable to communicate or affect each other due to geographic barriers, that was the world before the internet and social media.
We have to accept that today whatever happens anywhere in the world affects all of us directly, and we have to build our foreign policies on that assumption.
Adopting isolationist and populist policy might be effective in the short term but it makes the problem worse for the coming generations.
There is no longer us versus them on this planet, there is only one human race struggling to survive, and unless we understand this simple fact, there will never be a solution, and there will always be wars, genocide, prejudice and misery.
 
There is also an important European component that Americans are missing: integration and assimilation. The European countries where immigrants have been successful assimilated and integrated them. And the other way round: successful immigrants usually are assimilated ones. That's also one of the reasons why immigrants should be spread around, and there should be no "Chinatowns" or "ghettos" anywhere.

Anywhere immigrants are not only allowed, but also encouraged, to keep their language and customs, as in America, intolerance will soon and naturally follow. It's just a matter of time. It's absolutely STUPID to believe otherwise. The success of the 20th century America was based on controlled immigration with strong assimilation into the American fabric. That's why, if you look at European immigrants back then, their offspring lost the mother tongue and culture; they became AMERICANS. This is one of the most tolerant countries in the world, imperfect as it is. Nobody is; it's a human instinct to agglutinate with similar and stay away from different.

Anybody who can't make it here, can't make it because s/he doesn't WANT to become an AMERICAN. They just want to be American citizens, and enjoy all the benefits of this great country, without changing. That's where I agree with the MAGA people. When in Rome... Yes, that may include giving popular American names to children (instead of ethnic names), that may include adopting a local religion (instead of your minority one), that MUST include speaking English (because that's part of the fabric of this nation) etc. WTF are they doing in America otherwise? Colonizing?
Yeah, my great-grandparents that emigrated from Poland during WW1 weren't originally named John and Jane like it said on their SS cards...
 
Man, with all due respect, you are not very accurate in your statements.
That assimilation you mentioned in Europe has miserably failed in countries like France, Spain, Germany, and England.
They have ghettos of poor immigrants where the police is afraid to intervene and crime of all kinds is rampant. These ghettos continue to be a very fertile environment for radicals, terrorists and outlaws.
The true solution to Immigration is to help people stay in their countries by having a global view at the world, not by continuing to stir religious, and political conflicts and supply weapons to all those who want to fight in hot areas of the world.
The world is no longer isolated populations unable to communicate or affect each other due to geographic barriers, that was the world before the internet and social media.
We have to accept that today whatever happens anywhere in the world affects all of us directly, and we have build our foreign policies on that assumption.
Adopting isolationist and populist policy might be effective in the short term but it makes the problem worse for the coming generations.
There is no longer us versus them on this planet, there is only one human race struggling to survive, and unless we understand this simple fact, there will never be a solution, and there will always be wars, genocide, prejudice and misery.
Where it's failing, it's failing EXACTLY because of the lack of controlled immigration with assimilation.

Absent assimilation, it's just a matter of time till we have another racial/ethnic/religious major war. It's like in Nature: you can't have a difference in potential with no electrical current (except with a lot of isolation between those areas).

The most stable societies are homogeneous societies (from every standpoint). Sad, but true. Human nature.

I totally agree that the solution to immigration is to eliminate the reasons for people to want to emigrate from their home countries. I.e. a more homogeneous world. Good luck with that.

What are people who live in a foreign country without assimilating doing there? Invading?
 
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The number of cookies per person isn't a fixed amount. We can bake many more cookies per person:

View attachment 283242
Everyone should have a chance to get their share of cookies fairly.

Personally, I think QE and the differential taxation of qualified dividends and capital gains has accelerated the ongoing wealth and income gap coming out of the great recession. Trump channeled that populist resentment very effectively towards immigrants while giving the billionaires even more of their money back, rather than trying to fix the tax code and address automation which is a far bigger job killer than immigration or outsourcing ever could be. I really like Yang solutions in that regard

Meanwhile, the swamp continues: Updated - Trump-O-Meter: Eliminate the carried interest loophole
 
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Canada seems to be doing fine
It's just on the surface. They are getting their "MAGA" people, too. Right now, the social pressure is that Canadians are nice and hospitable. Keep watching. The tide will change there, too. Human nature. No country is an exception.

As I said, you just can't have the hordes invade and not have negative feelings. My wife makes fun of me because I am part of the "hordes", but that's the truth. Every immigrant should ask him-/herself: what can I do to make the majority feel less threatened by me? Because what makes them FEEL less threatened by me will make me BE less threatened by them.

Slow controlled immigration, like slow controlled induction. The lower the EF (median wealth), the higher the instability otherwise. One of the reasons for Canada's success (until now) may be their famous points system, which puts skills-based immigration ahead of family-. They are also less generous with welfare for family-based immigrants, AFAIK.
 
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Where it's failing, it's failing EXACTLY because of the lack of controlled immigration with assimilation.

Absent assimilation, it's just a matter of time till we have another racial/ethnic/religious major war. It's like in Nature: you can't have a difference in potential with no electrical current (except with a lot of isolation between those areas).

The most stable societies are homogeneous societies (from every standpoint). Sad, but true. Human nature.

I totally agree that the solution to immigration is to eliminate the reasons for people to want to emigrate from their home countries. I.e. a more homogeneous world. Good luck with that.

What are people who live in a foreign country without assimilating doing there? Invading?
They are not invading... they are trying to have a better life! An instinctual desire hardwired in the DNA of all of us.
If you were them you would do exactly the same thing. You would take your family and run towards a place where you and them might have a chance.
Unlucky people who were born in the wrong places will constantly run towards the more prosperous places, and they will always have variable degrees of assimilation based on many factors: Their educational levels, their ages, and the ability of the host society to integrate them and accept them.
We don't need a homogeneous world, we need a world where differences are accepted as long as we all see each-other as equal participants in the survival of all of us.
This is no longer a dream, it is a necessity.
 
They are not invading... they are trying to have a better life! An instinctual desire hardwired in the DNA of all of us.
If you were them you would do exactly the same thing. You would take your family and run towards a place where you and them might have a chance.
Unlucky people who were born in the wrong places will constantly run towards the more prosperous places, and they will always have variable degrees of assimilation based on many factors: Their educational levels, their ages, and the ability of the host society to integrate them and accept them.
We don't need a homogeneous world, we need a world where differences are accepted as long as we all see each-other as equal participants in the survival of all of us.
This is no longer a dream, it is a necessity.
I couldn't agree more. It just won't happen.

The question is: what do you do when you immigrate? That's what I am talking about. When in Rome do as the Romans do, or not, that is the question. Because this legend about accepting the differences has been a legend for millennia. Read the ancient Romans, and you'll find that NOTHING has changed in human nature. The negative feelings (intolerance, envy, hate) have always been there and will always be. The most you can get is some icing on the top to hide the rotten contents, for a while. Unless you fix the contents, for which I don't have a solution.

Minorities who expect the majority to adapt, instead of the other way round, are in for a very painful wakeup call, even in the developed world. History has a tendency of repeating itself, and humanity has been having all kinds of intolerance-based wars for as long as it has existed. Democracy is a very fragile thing, and I am not sure how much hate and envy it can resist to.

To any majority, minorities who don't try to assimilate ARE invading. Like it or not, that's how many people see it. Stability feels safe, and change breeds the opposite. So change should be SLOW and CONTROLLED. Like a good induction.
 
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I couldn't agree more. It just won't happen.

The question is: what do you do when you immigrate? That's what I am talking about. When in Rome do as the Romans do, or not, that is the question. Because this legend about accepting the differences has been a legend for millennia. Read the ancient Romans, and you'll find NOTHING has changed in human nature. The negative feelings (intolerance, envy, hate) have always been there and will always be. The most you can get is some icing on the top to hide the rotten contents, for a while. Unless you fix the contents, for which I don't have a solution.

Minorities who expect the majority to adapt, instead of the other way round, are in for a very painful wakeup call, even in the developed world. History has a tendency of repeating itself, and humanity has been having all kinds of intolerance-based wars for as long as it has existed. Democracy is a very fragile thing, and I am not sure how much hate and envy it can resist to.
Yes... there is no magical instant solution, but at least we need to agree that inciting more prejudice and more xenophobia by certain political elements is definitely not a step in the right direction.
People who you call "hordes" don't become hordes by choice, they become hordes by necessity and lack of options.
 
It's also something that's as old as the human race, because it's part of manipulating the masses. The herd is a very stupid animal.
Well... maybe we need better education so people can understand human history better and make better choices when they vote for politicians.
Unfortunately we are doing the opposite, we are producing more ignorant, and as a result, more vulnerable population, a population easier to manipulate as you said.
 
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Since I mentioned not irritating the majority, and slow-controlled:

I love these op-eds by Republicans who, even if they were never-trumpers in 2016, created the exact conditions in their party over the last decade that allowed trump to rise meteorically. And when he finally did rise, they now want to blame dems for their buyer’s remorse. If trump wins once again in 2020, it’ll still be the fault of the GOP and all their head-in-the-sand voters who refused (and still refuse) to take a stand for decency and lawfulness.
 
I love these op-eds by Republicans who, even if they were never-trumpers in 2016, created the exact conditions in their party over the last decade that allowed trump to rise meteorically. And when he finally did rise, they now want to blame dems for their buyer’s remorse. If trump wins once again in 2020, it’ll still be the fault of the GOP and all their head-in-the-sand voters who refused (and still refuse) to take a stand for decency and lawfulness.
They would argue about the definition of decency, especially in the context of this town hall. 😉

What Democrats should focus on is winning. Instead, they focus on preaching to the choir. Keep preaching, and they'll be the opposition party yet again. The only way Democrats can win is exactly by attracting the moderate Republicans they are alienating with radical left antics. Which also applies to moderate independents like myself.
 
They would argue about the definition of decency, especially in the context of this town hall. 😉

What Democrats should focus on is winning. Instead, they focus on preaching to the choir. Keep preaching, and they'll be the opposition party yet again. The only way Democrats can win is exactly by attracting the moderate Republicans they are alienating with radical left antics. Which also applies to moderate independents like myself.

I’ll guarantee you, anyone whose sensibilities were offended by that town hall wasn’t voting for a democrat anyway.

As I said earlier in the thread, the myth of the independent who can be swayed is dead. Some ***** dem strategist was convinced that putting a moderate like Clinton on the ballot in 16 would sway the independents to the D side and all the true believers and Bernie bros would hold their nose and fall in line. You know what happened, right? All the true believers stayed home, and all the “independents” hid their embarrassment about trump and pulled the lever for him anyways. By now it’s become quite cliche, but the tagline “Bernie would’ve won” remains absolutely true.

Moderates are dead. Populism is king- it’s only a question of whether you want leftist populism or trump’s faux populism. Dems win by driving their own turnout to north of 70%, not trying to win the mythical independent swing voter.
 
I’ll guarantee you, anyone whose sensibilities were offended by that town hall wasn’t voting for a democrat anyway.

As I said earlier in the thread, the myth of the independent who can be swayed is dead. Some ***** dem strategist was convinced that putting a moderate like Clinton on the ballot in 16 would sway the independents to the D side and all the true believers and Bernie bros would hold their nose and fall in line. You know what happened, right? All the true believers stayed home, and all the “independents” hid their embarrassment about trump and pulled the lever for him anyways.

Moderates are dead. Populism is king- it’s only a question of whether you want leftist populism or trump’s faux populism. Dems win by driving their own turnout to north of 70%, not trying to win the mythical independent swing voter.
I am sorry, but I am exactly that independent, and I am sure there are many undecideds like me, especially in the age of Trump. I am beginning to see myself skipping the 2020 elections.

Just because the radicals are disproportionately noisier than moderates, they aren't more numerous. Actually, all polls show that moderate voters still dominate the American electorate.
 
I am sorry, but I am exactly that independent, and I am sure there are many undecideds like me, especially in the age of Trump. I am beginning to see myself skipping the 2020 elections.
Bingo.

It's the difference between people like me voting for the Democratic candidate or voting third party again.
 
I am sorry, but I am exactly that independent, and I am sure there are many undecideds like me, especially in the age of Trump. I am beginning to see myself skipping the 2020 elections.

Just because the radicals are disproportionately noisier than moderates, they aren't more numerous. Actually, all polls show that moderate voters still dominate the American electorate.


Remind me, what happened to moderates Jeb and Kasich and Hunstman?

Nominating Biden would be the dems 2nd biggest mistake this decade, since he essentially would be HRC 2.0. What they need to do is turn out the 4 million Obama voters who stayed home in 2016. No matter who the candidate is, they will be painted as a radical second coming of AOC by the trump machine. We all know candidates campaign in poetry and govern in prose, so if you think Warren is still one of the radicals, so be it.
 
I don't like Warren anymore (and I used to be a fan for a long time, starting back in her Obama era). The more she speaks, the less I like her. I don't like radicals, even (or especially) if they are Harvard professors.

She's not likeable, even without her radical ideas (makes Obama look like a moderate). She will not beat Trump.
 
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Society-level data, you say? That's a new one from a conservative considering most of you all perseverate on federalism and the individual experience. If Warren Buffet suggests that wealthy people, esp those who make fortunes through capital gains, need to pay more taxes, the response is always something *****ic like "well, he's free to write an extra personal check to the IRS if he feels that way" rather than address the issue with a change to the federal tax code.

There is plenty of historical and current data that demonstrates the economic and social marginalization of people of color, LGBTQ, women, etc. But something tells me you would dispute it all plus any personal anecdotes because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion of America.

Bolded sentence has absolutely atrocious syntax and logical follow-through. "Most of you" or "all"? Furthermore, your retort is aimed toward me but based on the supposed views of other people. ???

*snaps fingers*

I'm right here. Feel free to present an argument to me instead of ranting cathartically about conservatives.
 
I don't like Warren anymore (and I was a fan for a long time). The more she speaks, the less I like her. I don't like radicals, even (or especially) if they are Harvard professors.
Remember that Obama was a radical too.. Some of the Warren policies will be difficult to implement (aka Medicare for all, free college etc...), but Warren will go after crony capitalism big time.

She is not my #1, but the republicans/Trump are forcing my hands here. I sat out in the last election, but I was hoping the presidency might have transformed Trump into a marginally decent human being, but boy! I was so wrong.
 
Remember that Obama was a radical too.. Some of the Warren policies will be difficult to implement (aka Medicare for all, free college etc...), but Warren will go after crony capitalism big time.

She is not my #1, but the republicans/Trump are forcing my hands here. I sat out in the last election, but I was hoping the presidency might have transformed Trump into a marginally decent human being, but boy! I was so wrong.
Except that Obama had (and has) charisma. And he was never as radical as these candidates. The current Democratic crop make the Chinese look capitalist (and that's without touching on the social issues).

Beyond a vote on Trump, these upcoming elections are also beginning to shape as a vote on "wokeness". And I am not sure everybody wants the government to turn into the woke and progressive correctness police.
 
I’ll guarantee you, anyone whose sensibilities were offended by that town hall wasn’t voting for a democrat anyway.

Probably right. I thought her response was kind of funny, myself. Stupid. Strategically unsound. Harmful to her campaign. But funny.


As I said earlier in the thread, the myth of the independent who can be swayed is dead. Some ***** dem strategist was convinced that putting a moderate like Clinton on the ballot in 16 would sway the independents to the D side and all the true believers and Bernie bros would hold their nose and fall in line. You know what happened, right? All the true believers stayed home, and all the “independents” hid their embarrassment about trump and pulled the lever for him anyways. By now it’s become quite cliche, but the tagline “Bernie would’ve won” remains absolutely true.

Moderates are dead. Populism is king- it’s only a question of whether you want leftist populism or trump’s faux populism. Dems win by driving their own turnout to north of 70%, not trying to win the mythical independent swing voter.

No, you're not going to get a moderate who thinks gays are icky to vote for a Democrat, even if he dislikes Trump. But if you make make gender pronoun jokes or imply that a guy who believes in traditional marriage can't get a girl, he's a lot less likely to stay home or vote 3rd party.

You're not going to get a moderate who is concerned about gun rights to vote for a Democrat, even if he dislikes Trump. But if Beto prances around telling everyone the Democrats are absolutely for sure definitely really going to come to confiscate their guns, he's a lot less likely to stay home or vote 3rd party.

You're not going to get a moderate who wants illegal immigration stopped to vote for a Democrat, even if he dislikes Trump. But if you expand free services for illegal immigrants, and tell him he's a racist for disagreeing, he's a lot less likely to stay home or vote 3rd party.


You seem to think because an independent or indifferent person isn't likely to vote for the Democratic nominee, that it's therefore impossible to alienate them to the point that they feel compelled to show up and vote for the other guy.

You don't seem to care that the LGBTQ town hall accomplished nothing except piss off people who were never going to vote Democrat. The LGBTQ community is already all-in with any Democratic candidate. Why go out of your way to give Trump voters (some of whom might be having second thoughts about how great he's making America) another reason to show up and vote for him again?

You're absolutely right that turnout is going to win this election. Where you seem to have a blind spot is in not understanding that highlighting these fringe issues may well drive a lot more of your opponents to the polls than allies.

You guys are like a concussed Superman who can't stop picking up the kryptonite to see if it still hurts.

It's the same thing when Republican candidates talk about abortion. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Perseverating on culture issues loses elections.
 
Bolded sentence has absolutely atrocious syntax and logical follow-through. "Most of you" or "all"? Furthermore, your retort is aimed toward me but based on the supposed views of other people. ???

*snaps fingers*

I'm right here. Feel free to present an argument to me instead of ranting cathartically about conservatives.

You're not familiar with the phrase "most of you all" or similarly "most of you guys?" You might have to take FFPs advice and assimilate if English isn't your first language.
 
You're not familiar with the phrase "most of you all" or similarly "most of you guys?" You might have to take FFPs advice and assimilate if English isn't your first language.
That was violence, my woke friend. 😛
 
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Remind me, what happened to moderates Jeb and Kasich and Hunstman?

Nominating Biden would be the dems 2nd biggest mistake this decade, since he essentially would be HRC 2.0. What they need to do is turn out the 4 million Obama voters who stayed home in 2016. No matter who the candidate is, they will be painted as a radical second coming of AOC by the trump machine. We all know candidates campaign in poetry and govern in prose, so if you think Warren is still one of the radicals, so be it.
Biden would've beaten Trump in 2016
 
Probably right. I thought her response was kind of funny, myself. Stupid. Strategically unsound. Harmful to her campaign. But funny.




No, you're not going to get a moderate who thinks gays are icky to vote for a Democrat, even if he dislikes Trump. But if you make make gender pronoun jokes or imply that a guy who believes in traditional marriage can't get a girl, he's a lot less likely to stay home or vote 3rd party.

You're not going to get a moderate who is concerned about gun rights to vote for a Democrat, even if he dislikes Trump. But if Beto prances around telling everyone the Democrats are absolutely for sure definitely really going to come to confiscate their guns, he's a lot less likely to stay home or vote 3rd party.

You're not going to get a moderate who wants illegal immigration stopped to vote for a Democrat, even if he dislikes Trump. But if you expand free services for illegal immigrants, and tell him he's a racist for disagreeing, he's a lot less likely to stay home or vote 3rd party.


You seem to think because an independent or indifferent person isn't likely to vote for the Democratic nominee, that it's therefore impossible to alienate them to the point that they feel compelled to show up and vote for the other guy.

You don't seem to care that the LGBTQ town hall accomplished nothing except piss off people who were never going to vote Democrat. The LGBTQ community is already all-in with any Democratic candidate. Why go out of your way to give Trump voters (some of whom might be having second thoughts about how great he's making America) another reason to show up and vote for him again?

You're absolutely right that turnout is going to win this election. Where you seem to have a blind spot is in not understanding that highlighting these fringe issues may well drive a lot more of your opponents to the polls than allies.

You guys are like a concussed Superman who can't stop picking up the kryptonite to see if it still hurts.

It's the same thing when Republican candidates talk about abortion. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Perseverating on culture issues loses elections.

I don't disagree with what you're saying about some moderates being turned off. However. part of the reason I side left is because many liberal politicians are principled enough that they don't give a sht about trying to cater to people with regressive beliefs who have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. If liberals think LGBTQ or young black men or single moms on welfare or whoever are an important constituency whose rights are worthy of a townhall, that's fine by me. If coming out strongly for abortion rights or gay marriage drives that many liberal opponents or indifferent people to the polls for Trump then we absolutely deserve the Handmaid's Tale-ish America that we get. Does Warren have to insult people who are regressive about gay marriage? Probably not. Has Trump been hurt one iota by being a rude dbag? Definitely not.

I probably differ from many others on the left who are so desperate to beat Trump that they would vote for literally anyone who could win. I don't like Biden, I think he's wishy washy and too centrist, and many parts of his record are disagreeable. Regardless, I 100% would rather nominate Warren or Bernie because of my sense that Biden is going to poll exactly like and lose exactly like HRC if he's the nominee.
 
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Biden would've beaten Trump in 2016

Probably. However, this past week, #WheresHunter was the top trender. Biden is a terrible campaigner, he has a mediocre record, it's painfully obvious he's trying to win the left and right while likely he's currently alienating both, and he seems helpless to defend himself against the Trump machine and their attacks.
 
I don't disagree with what you're saying about some moderates being turned off. However. part of the reason I side left is because many liberal politicians are principled enough that they don't give a sht about trying to cater to people with regressive beliefs who have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. If liberals think LGBTQ or young black men or single moms on welfare or whoever are an important constituency whose rights are worthy of a townhall, that's fine by me. If coming out strongly for abortion rights or gay marriage drives that many liberal opponents to the polls then we deserve the America that we get. Does Warren have to insult people who are regressive about gay marriage? Probably not. Has Trump been hurt one iota by being a rude dbag? Definitely not.

I probably differ from many others on the left who are so desperate to beat Trump that they would vote for literally anyone who could win. I don't like Biden, I think he's wishy washy and too centrist, and many parts of his record are disagreeable. Regardless, I 100% would rather nominate Warren or Bernie because of my sense that Biden is going to poll exactly like and lose exactly like HRC if he's the nominee.
Trump hasn't been as hurt by that because lots of his supporters voted for him as a rejection of PC culture. Not sure that'll fly with Warren.

You're right, nothing you do will get anti-gay people to vote for a Democrat. But you can easily turn people off who support LGBT rights but don't love how insane things have gotten with some people about that.

Part of Biden's problem is how long he was in the Senate. He's been reasonably moderate for most of that as best I can tell, that means his views 30 years ago aren't going to be seen as a good thing by today's standards. But like many he's willing to go forward when needed.

I think he has a solid chance. 2016 taught the far-left to get out and vote or risk another term of Trump. He can handle a debate with Trump better than the others in my opinion. I think Sanders will likely get goaded into going full-on crazy old man by Trump's "debate" style. I don't know enough about Warren to say one way or another, but I do remember thinking Biden did very well in 2008 and 2012 in the VP debates.
 
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