Woot woot!! COCA isn't messing around

[MADD!!!]

So, question.

Why can DO schools "sprawl out" and have all these satellite campuses or found new schools but MD schools don't? I know a few do, UNC has a satellite campus in Asheville, Washington has campuses in AK and MT.

Is it just cheaper to start a DO school vs an MD school??

I think a big component is research. MD schools need to have labs set up and running for a few years as one of the requirements while DO schools don't.

Also they're sprawling because of how profitable medical schools have become now due to high tuition rates.

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[Goro]

So, question.

Why can DO schools "sprawl out" and have all these satellite campuses or found new schools but MD schools don't? I know a few do, UNC has a satellite campus in Asheville, Washington has campuses in AK and MT.

Is it just cheaper to start a DO school vs an MD school??

Yes, sadly. However, MD schools can increase their class sizes.

IU has seven branch campuses, BTW.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Is it just cheaper to start a DO school vs an MD school??

Pretty much yeah. Also the requirements to meet are a little lower with stuff like research output. ACOM actually said at the interview last year that they first explored an MD program but eventually went DO because of the research requirements on the MD side.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I’m sure Ross will try. Hopefully COCA does it because I’m sure that would be highly illegal and COCA would then be stripped of its accreditor privileges and the schools would be forced to seek LCME accred.

So you want to sacrifice every DO student currently for elimination of COCA? Thats cold.

Pretty much yeah. Also the requirements to meet are a little lower with stuff like research output. ACOM actually said at the interview last year that they first explored an MD program but eventually went DO because of the research requirements on the MD side.

The money requirements (as I remember from a few years ago when I looked) are about 10 fold more for an MD school from what I understand (although I am sure that as DO becomes more popular, the cost has gone up). Think like 5 million vs 50 million in cash.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

So you want to sacrifice every DO student currently for elimination of COCA? Thats cold

Nah I’m banking on a grace period, like with the merger

 

[DO2015CA]

Nah I’m banking on a grace period, like with the merger

Lol wouldn’t call it that great of a grace period because if they were then they’d allow the last class be taken in 2019 even if they shut down afterwards. The reason i say that is because the 2018 & 2019 classes started then it was dropped on them.

 

[hallowmann]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, this blocking of the LECOM Elmira campus is more political than actual policy changes. Don't get me wrong, LECOM definitely doesn't need another campus, but it could do a lot worse than Elmira, considering it has a mediumish DO hospital right in the town with multiple residencies and some fellowships that have for the most part attained initial ACGME accreditation. That hospital can easily support 2/3 of the proposed school's students for rotations. On top of that LECOM is one of the few DO schools that actually has been consistently opening up residencies every year. If this was really about rotations and residencies, COCA would have blocked plenty of other schools that got approved over the last few years before this one. I don't know who LECOM annoyed (it wouldn't be a first for LECOM), but that's what's going on in Elmira.

So, question.

Why can DO schools "sprawl out" and have all these satellite campuses or found new schools but MD schools don't? I know a few do, UNC has a satellite campus in Asheville, Washington has campuses in AK and MT.

Is it just cheaper to start a DO school vs an MD school??

There are plenty of MD schools with multiple satellite campuses, but its certainly cheaper to open a satellite DO school than it is a satellite MD school.

So you want to sacrifice every DO student currently for elimination of COCA? Thats cold.

The money requirements (as I remember from a few years ago when I looked) are about 10 fold more for an MD school from what I understand (although I am sure that as DO becomes more popular, the cost has gone up). Think like 5 million vs 50 million in cash.

Its not that big of a difference. From what I remember when I looked into it (to be fair that was 4 yrs ago), it was about double. ~$50mil for a DO school facility and $100-$150mil for an MD school (at least $50mil for the school facility and at least $50mil for the affiliated hospital for rotations).

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, this blocking of the LECOM Elmira campus is more political than actual policy changes. Don't get me wrong, LECOM definitely doesn't need another campus, but it could do a lot worse than Elmira, considering it has a mediumish DO hospital right in the town with multiple residencies and some fellowships that have for the most part attained initial ACGME accreditation. That hospital can easily support 2/3 of the proposed school's students for rotations. On top of that LECOM is one of the few DO schools that actually has been consistently opening up residencies every year. If this was really about rotations and residencies, COCA would have blocked plenty of other schools that got approved over the last few years before this one. I don't know who LECOM annoyed (it wouldn't be a first for LECOM), but that's what's going on in Elmira.



There are plenty of MD schools with multiple satellite campuses, but its certainly cheaper to open a satellite DO school than it is a satellite MD school.



Its not that big of a difference. From what I remember when I looked into it (to be fair that was 4 yrs ago), it was about double. ~$50mil for a DO school facility and $100-$150mil for an MD school (at least $50mil for the school facility and at least $50mil for the affiliated hospital for rotations).

I would trust your memory over mine, I seem to be thinking of a story of a school trying to start ten years ago, so definitely could be off.

 

[DCRATAMT2]

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ts/COCA-APPEAL-PANEL-In-re-LECOM-07022017.pdf

So LECOM has been trying to build a new campus in New York, and COCA has REPEATEDLY shut them down. Still, LECOM keeps appealing the rejections. Just want to give a shoutout to COCA for not just letting DO schools to sprawl up everywhere unless they do have everything in place. They've gotten some bad stigma here and deserve praise when it's warranted.

LECOM Receives Approval to Add Elmira, NY Campus - LECOM Education System

 

[Goro]

I am still waiting to hear of a school that actually gets permanently stopped from opening by COCA.
This "COCA isn't messing around" thread ends with LECOM Elmira getting approved.

Not going to hold my breath

 

[LutGholein]

Pharmacy model here we come!!!

 

[CoomassieBlue57]

I am still waiting to hear of a school that actually gets permanently stopped from opening by COCA.
This "COCA isn't messing around" thread ends with LECOM Elmira getting approved.

Northwest Suburban College Rabia School of Osteopathic Medicine Rolling Meadows, IL

 

[LutGholein]

Northwest Suburban College Rabia School of Osteopathic Medicine Rolling Meadows, IL

If schools are going to proliferate fine, I can’t personally stop the dilution of our medical education— but at least have semi-respectable sounding medical school names. I’m waiting for the run-on sentence medical school

 

[CoomassieBlue57]

Can you please link to the COCA meeting minutes or any news story that shows that this school was rejected by COCA?

It just kind of went away without any kind of statement. There's no way the clowns putting together this school ever had a chance.

 

[MADD!!!]

@jkdoctor just think of how many schools you posted in the last few years that were planning to open, and how many actually did. I’d guess it’s roughly 20%. (You’ve literally posted like 50 new schools that were projected to open).

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

On a lighter note, I'm opening a ND school in my basement.

$500 application fee.

Don't call us, we will call you.

 

[DO2015CA]

Of course this list is already now of date since it does not include LECOM Elmira, LMU Knoxville, and WNCOM Jefferson.

What the heck is WNCOM? Where is that?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Should be WCOM Wisconsin College of Osteopathic Medicine

Jk you are the dang watchman on the wall. I have no idea how you keep up with all this crap. I mean 17 new schools opening in the next 3 years is crazy. And people still try to say we will match like we always have. Lol.

 

[Sardonix]

So, question.

Why can DO schools "sprawl out" and have all these satellite campuses or found new schools but MD schools don't? I know a few do, UNC has a satellite campus in Asheville, Washington has campuses in AK and MT.

Is it just cheaper to start a DO school vs an MD school??

Probably the biggest thing that comes to mind is that MD schools are usually part of the land-grant based state programs. They don't grow new schools unless the state wants them to.

Why don't private MD schools flourish and make chains like DO schools? They're probably already making quite a nice chunk of change as they currently are. If they water down their reputation by creating a sub-optimal expansion school they do more damage than benefit.

This is all talking off the top of my head, I am no expert.

 

[Goro]

Probably the biggest thing that comes to mind is that MD schools are usually part of the land-grant based state programs. They don't grow new schools unless the state wants them to.

Why don't private MD schools flourish and make chains like DO schools? They're probably already making quite a nice chunk of change as they currently are. If they water down their reputation by creating a sub-optimal expansion school they do more damage than benefit.

This is all talking off the top of my head, I am no expert.

This minor obstacle called LCME.

 

[eberge3]

Probably the biggest thing that comes to mind is that MD schools are usually part of the land-grant based state programs. They don't grow new schools unless the state wants them to.

Why don't private MD schools flourish and make chains like DO schools? They're probably already making quite a nice chunk of change as they currently are. If they water down their reputation by creating a sub-optimal expansion school they do more damage than benefit.

This is all talking off the top of my head, I am no expert.

There are usually a 1 or 2 new MD schools added each year or thats how it has been in the fast few years. Those are the exact same numbers as DO schools last year it was ICOM + PCOM branch campus. Everyone on SDN says LCME (MD accredidation) is more strict on opening new schools but no one truly knows that for sure.

What is really going on here is that in the last 6-8 years we have seen a tremendous rise in the amount of students willing to go to a DO program. Osteopathic medicine is the fastest growing medical profession. Now that could be due to more people interested in medicine, less people wanting to take years off/go to carrib. So now that there is such a high demand, people will fill the supply. Some of the proposed upcoming schools such as the new California school or Wisconsin school have been in the works for the past several years it is not all of a sudden and most importantly a lot of new schools are branch campuses from LECOM or PCOM or Nova etc therefore those schools can achieve COCA accreditation much much faster. I mean there was a new MD school introduced last year "California University of Science and Medicine" who is currently being housed in a strip mall and was started by a dean who was inspired to start the school because he went to the carribean and noticed how many CA students were there.

 

[Goro]

There are usually a 1 or 2 new MD schools added each year or thats how it has been in the fast few years. Those are the exact same numbers as DO schools last year it was ICOM + PCOM branch campus. Everyone on SDN says LCME (MD accredidation) is more strict on opening new schools but no one truly knows that for sure.

What is really going on here is that in the last 6-8 years we have seen a tremendous rise in the amount of students willing to go to a DO program. Osteopathic medicine is the fastest growing medical profession. Now that could be due to more people interested in medicine, less people wanting to take years off/go to carrib. So now that there is such a high demand, people will fill the supply. Some of the proposed upcoming schools such as the new California school or Wisconsin school have been in the works for the past several years it is not all of a sudden and most importantly a lot of new schools are branch campuses from LECOM or PCOM or Nova etc therefore those schools can achieve COCA accreditation much much faster. I mean there was a new MD school introduced last year "California University of Science and Medicine" who is currently being housed in a strip mall and was started by a dean who was inspired to start the school because he went to the carribean and noticed how many CA students were there.

Jeeze, you were correct about CalU Med. I can't fault them given their association with Arrowhead Hospital. Sure have a lot of foreign-born/trained faculty though.

 

[eberge3]

Jeeze, you were correct about CalU Med. I can't fault them given their association with Arrowhead Hospital. Sure have a lot of foreign-born/trained faculty though.


View attachment 247708

I heard their inaugural class average mcat was a 514.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Jeeze, you were correct about CalU Med. I can't fault them given their association with Arrowhead Hospital. Sure have a lot of foreign-born/trained faculty though.


View attachment 247708

You got to hand it too them tho, thats a pretty nice strip mall. I got some inside info on the 'delayed' William Carey branch campus and it ain't looking so good:

 

[Goro]

I heard their inaugural class average mcat was a 514.

Californians! These kids will do fine. Alas, we won't be getting some them.

 

[NurWollen]

I heard their inaugural class average mcat was a 514.

Study lounge and library look terrible. Not places conducive to my study style.

Worst part is watching a new upstart MD school just come into a hospital that had essentially been a home institution for Western DO students. DO schools just let that kind of thing happen too often.

 

[Goro]

Study lounge and library look terrible. Not places conducive to my study style.

Worst part is watching a new upstart MD school just come into a hospital that had essentially been a home institution for Western DO students. DO schools just let that kind of thing happen too often.

It's not like do students have much power in these types of things

 

[863168]

@BorntobeDO? Isn't that Touro NY Harlem?

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

In all honesty if you take out the "research labs" it becomes very similar to a lot of DO schools. Yet their students will likely be given more benefit of the doubt in the match. Go figure.

 

[NurWollen]

In all honesty if you take out the "research labs" it becomes very similar to a lot of DO schools. Yet their students will likely be given more benefit of the doubt in the match. Go figure.

Honestly my DO school had labs for bench research. A big difference is that this school has a teaching hospital, which moreso than research affects a students education. Then again, my rotations in med school were largely fantastic, but not all my classmates were so lucky. That inconsistency I think makes residency programs hesitant.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

 

[eberge3]

I would say half of DO schools have great facilities, plenty of research opportunities, and some sort of teaching hospital connection.

 

[libertyyne]

I would say half of DO schools have great facilities, plenty of research opportunities, and some sort of teaching hospital connection.

 

[Goro]

View attachment 248016

This is so f'ing sad I just want to tear my hair out in frustration.




All I can hazard is to surmise that the AOA and COCA really and truly want you to be Primary Care docs and do not give a rat's ass bout your hopes for competitive specialties.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

This is so f'ing sad I just want to tear my hair out in frustration.




All I can hazard is to surmise that the AOA and COCA really and truly want you to be Primary Care docs and do not give a rat's ass bout your hopes for competitive specialties.

I think even more than our hopes for competitive specialties, those of us whom would like to contribute to scientific literature are not given any assistance from our schools to do so. It's very frustrating from that standpoint.

 

[eberge3]

View attachment 248016

There is around 150 MD schools most linked with major state/private universities with major research heavy programs of course they are going to receive the majority of NIH funding. However the majority of the programs I interviewed at had plenty of research opportunities and I know of many other good DO programs that I wasn't able to interview with that have the same.

 

[libertyyne]

There is around 150 MD schools most linked with major state/private universities with major research heavy programs of course they are going to receive the majority of NIH funding. However the majority of the programs I interviewed at had plenty of research opportunities and I know of many other good DO programs that I wasn't able to interview with that have the same.

That is money ONLY going to the medical school not the UG research institutes. When MD schools in US territories have twice the funding of all DO schools combined there is a problem in the DO research focus.
Schools during interview will try to sell you on research , but the numbers do not lie.


Almost every single MD school has more research dollars than ALL of DO schools combined.

Research in the Osteopathic Medical Profession: Roadmap to Recovery
Brian C. Clark, PhD; Jack Blazyk, PhD
Author Notes
The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association, August 2014, Vol. 114, 608-614. doi:10.7556/jaoa.2014.124

 

[Neopolymath]

That is money ONLY going to the medical school not the UG research institutes. When MD schools in US territories have twice the funding of all DO schools combined there is a problem in the DO research focus.
Schools during interview will try to sell you on research , but the numbers do not lie.


Almost every single MD school has more research dollars than ALL of DO schools combined.

Research in the Osteopathic Medical Profession: Roadmap to Recovery
Brian C. Clark, PhD; Jack Blazyk, PhD
Author Notes
The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association, August 2014, Vol. 114, 608-614. doi:10.7556/jaoa.2014.124

They neglect to mention that it is awful bench research that is going nowhere and isn't even accessible to many students with no prior lab work under their belt.