Words of caution for career changers

[Ad2b]

@OP - the best advice I can give you is to walk away for 2 months, or longer. Your bitterness/anger isn't going to serve you well on here (or in life) as your *notice* to other non-trads is based solely on your lack of IIs.

You talked about how to be happy when rejected, and how that doesn't come easily. @jonnythan said, an appropriate post is "Help me figure out what is wrong with my app so I can fix it" rather than humble-boast your stats. That alone comes off as arrogant and no one here (especially) has a high tolerance for it.

As for rejection, give me an hour and I can tell you about my life. Never once, through the darkest of days and the cave-dwelling years, however, was I not grateful. Grateful for all the good things that happen because there are many. Grateful that I wake up healthy instead of like my friend with Stage IV ovarian at 43 with spots in lungs, abdomen, and brain. Grateful that I DO have a career to fall back on if I should get rejected forever from medical school. Grateful that my son survived/thrived teenage years and is now a premed too. Grateful I got to spend another 10 years with my dad (and still do!) when I thought he was dead. Grateful... by focusing on that, the rejection still stings, just a little less and eventually, I pick myself up by the bootstraps and trek onward.

Happiness IS a choice. How you choose to deal with rejection indicates a lot about the character of someone. Focus on grace/gratitude and rejection/hurt is lessened.

So... now what are you going to do? Throw away a few years worth of tuition and MCAT prep and MCAT fees and AMCAS fees and time to say.. what exactly? You gave up?

Really? I mean, Really?!

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[WGSgrad]

Oh my god, am I supposed to act contrite or something? Pretend to be in awe of those who got admitted?

This is exactly why I posted. Future nontrads, if you don't get in, you're entitled and motivation lacking scum.

The idea that no one told you applying to medical school, particularly as a non-trad, is a crapshoot is an alternative fact. There a million and one "is it worth it threads" in the non-trad forum in which the consensus is generally, "only for a few people" and like EVERY post by DrMidLife begins with a preamble as to why you shouldn't do it.


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[WGSgrad]

Good point, however it's only a few DO schools that have the 30+ mcat average. Op would have a lot of choices with the other two dozen DO schools that take lower stats in lieu for life experience.

Yup. And those graduate degrees would have helped OPs unknown GPA with a DO app as well.


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[dontdoittheyrelying]

The idea that no one told you applying to medical school, particularly as a non-trad, is a crapshoot is an alternative fact. There a million and one "is it worth it threads" in the non-trad forum in which the consensus is generally, "only for a few people" and like EVERY post by DrMidLife begins with a preamble as to why you shouldn't do it.

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I read her posts plenty. I remember her Melvin Konner reference, for instance. Plenty of good advice, but I wasn't in GPA repair mode, which I believe she said she was.

Yup. And those graduate degrees would have helped OPs unknown GPA with a DO app as well.


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I put that down (stats) in page 1. Essentially, good not great.

 

[dontdoittheyrelying]

As for my lousy attitude - yeah, a little lousy, I'll admit. I don't really think MettaWorldPeace-level lousy, though, even if I'm close to tying him based on some responses.

But come on, I started posting near 2am, ya gotta know I was in a bit of a mood at that hour!

 

[clippersfan88]

There is NOTHING wrong with being a DO. It's ridiculous to think otherwise. Get into DO school and work your butt off to get into a good residency and intriguing specialty.

 

[WGSgrad]

I read her posts plenty. I remember her Melvin Konner reference, for instance. Plenty of good advice, but I wasn't in GPA repair mode, which I believe she said she was.

I'll concede that she was probably not where she is now when you started on this journey. But there are literally thousands of "is it worth it" threads in the non-traditional forums going back to late 2000s.

I put that down (stats) in page 1. Essentially, good not great.

My bad. But my sentiment, as is many of the other posters in this thread, still stands. You had a bad strategy. As a second round applicant, you should have included some DO schools. Not applying to them because you thought they would think they were your "back up" option seems...and I'm just being straightforward, weak. As in, not the whole truth.

Your tone from your initial post till now seems to have tempered a bit so I would believe the 2AM post was posted in frustration...and maybe alcohol. I think you got solid advice in this thread. My best to you.

 

[dontdoittheyrelying]

You had a bad strategy. As a second round applicant, you should have included some DO schools. Not applying to them because you thought they would think they were your "back up" option seems...and I'm just being straightforward, weak. As in, not the whole truth.

Your tone from your initial post till now seems to have tempered a bit so I would believe the 2AM post was posted in frustration...and maybe alcohol. I think you got solid advice in this thread. My best to you.

1) Alright, alright, DO sounds just fine, but honestly, I made near zero headway beyond MD app payments. A few of those secondary invites came after passing the screen, but little more than that. Honestly, wouldn't you tell most premeds with that experience that DO is going to be a pretty tough fight under those circumstances? I think people who hedge with DO apps are probably displacing some good, earnest DO applicants. Bad strategy? Yeah, sure, maybe, who knows.

2) If I missed threads where people trying to change careers openly talked about it, without some serious obstacle (GPA, for example, seems to come up all too often) that seems to be the main explanation, my bad. TBH, the nontrads pages were often a little odd to me. I thought my experience was relatable to a more general career person - no reason to doubt that it would work out, everything seems okay on paper - but hey, presumptuousness can be added to my character flaws.

3) Who is up at 2am without having some alcohol? And don't say "me, and my colleagues doing the overnight shifts at the hospital." Else I actually will start trolling.

 

[el_duderino]

How many schools did you apply to?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

1) Alright, alright, DO sounds just fine, but honestly, I made near zero headway beyond MD app payments. A few of those secondary invites came after passing the screen, but little more than that. Honestly, wouldn't you tell most premeds with that experience that DO is going to be a pretty tough fight under those circumstances? I think people who hedge with DO apps are probably displacing some good, earnest DO applicants. Bad strategy? Yeah, sure, maybe, who knows.

That's not how it works though. You aren't competing for spots with individual applicants.

2) If I missed threads where people trying to change careers openly talked about it, without some serious obstacle (GPA, for example, seems to come up all too often) that seems to be the main explanation, my bad. TBH, the nontrads pages were often a little odd to me. I thought my experience was relatable to a more general career person - no reason to doubt that it would work out, everything seems okay on paper - but hey, presumptuousness can be added to my character flaws.

3) Who is up at 2am without having some alcohol? And don't say "me, and my colleagues doing the overnight shifts at the hospital." Else I actually will start trolling.

Unfortunately I am often up at 2am, either at work or with the little one. They frown on alcohol in either case.

 

[dontdoittheyrelying]

It sounds like there's a serious red flag in your app.

Some, maybe death sentences: C's in orgo. Like zilch volunteering. But no, probably should have mentioned no criminal background, since someone asked that. LORs, I can only assume, were mostly fine, because some rejects started rolling quick.

How many schools did you apply to?

~20

 

[libertyyne]

Some, maybe death sentences: C's in orgo. Like zilch volunteering. But no, probably should have mentioned no criminal background, since someone asked that. LORs, I can only assume, were mostly fine, because some rejects started rolling quick.



~20

we need a clearer picture of the hours , types of ECs etc. I would be cautious about the letters , you could have a torpedo in there. when were you complete?

 

[NonTrad16]

Some, maybe death sentences: C's in orgo. Like zilch volunteering. But no, probably should have mentioned no criminal background, since someone asked that. LORs, I can only assume, were mostly fine, because some rejects started rolling quick.



~20

That's the ticket. Only took 3 pages, but... no volunteering (clinical if not in your job, and definitely non clinical for those in need) is a very clear but maybe not written requirement. Shadowing is also expected, and I'm guessing there wasn't much there.

 

[dontdoittheyrelying]

I won't go off on some rant bashing volunteering. I will just say family obligations can make it harder to justify. And those obligations don't get counted as volunteer hours.

Actually I will do a small amount of bashing: I find it a little disturbing if med school adcoms are actually duped by the altruism of it all. Reminds me of high schoolers who do it for Ivy attention, and stop as soon as the decision letter comes in.

And if I'm wrong on this, hey, I got hit pretty hard earlier for describing what I felt was "checking the boxes."

 

[libertyyne]

I won't go off on some rant bashing volunteering. I will just say family obligations can make it harder to justify. And those obligations don't get counted as volunteer hours.

Actually I will do a small amount of bashing: I find it a little disturbing if med school adcoms are actually duped by the altruism of it all. Reminds me of high schoolers who do it for Ivy attention, and stop as soon as the decision letter comes in.

And if I'm wrong on this, hey, I got hit pretty hard earlier for describing what I felt was "checking the boxes."

Got to check the boxes while looking like you arent checking the boxes.

 

[Promethean]

Wow, seriously, bash and hate all you want. I'm out of the running. Maybe some of my sentences were bitter, but that slips out occasionally now as I work out plan C.

MCAT 513, cGPA 3.8, sGPA 3.5 (yeah, usual chemistry-challenged type). Schools were a mix of state public's in my region, and some privates where my score fell in the 10-90 percentile range on MSAR.

Quite honestly, I heard a lot about the idea that med schools go nuts for the slightly older (30) candidate, but it really didn't work out for me. Wish I had heard this when I first started. And no, not quitting early. I applied after year one with a 509. (Not bad for someone without orgo I figured.)

So I figured I'd share my disappointment on a forum where people ask about their chances going back all the time. That's it.

Go nuts for over 30? Nah. More like being 30+ doesn't rule you out.

No one is guaranteed anything, but I'm betting that if you'd applied DO, you'd have acceptances right now. DO schools are kinder to nontrads, in my experience. But I don't know that anyone is seriously claiming that 30+ is a plus... Just that it isn't hopeless for those of us who are older.

 

[NonTrad16]

Is it really a dupe? Basically 100% of accepted students volunteer, in part because they want to, or because it's a requirement. Can you not find something altruistic you'd enjoy doing? If not (ignoring the other implications), can you not muster up the effort to do it because it's required? You completed a PhD, right? There's lots of nonsense along that route (at least in the experience I had in graduate school, and through my friends who went through the full PhD). If you've worked, you've dealt with stuff that wasn't really your job, but you had to do... if you aren't motivated by altruism, it seems you're taking a stand against it just because you don't think you should have to, rather than follow the practical requirement.

And if you can't manage to volunteer because you're too busy... what will you do when you're in school and a resident? Family obligations aren't a benefit for schools and residencies. They also aren't an excuse.

 

[bears1992]

I won't go off on some rant bashing volunteering. I will just say family obligations can make it harder to justify. And those obligations don't get counted as volunteer hours.

Actually I will do a small amount of bashing: I find it a little disturbing if med school adcoms are actually duped by the altruism of it all. Reminds me of high schoolers who do it for Ivy attention, and stop as soon as the decision letter comes in.

And if I'm wrong on this, hey, I got hit pretty hard earlier for describing what I felt was "checking the boxes."

I agree that your average medical school applicant is volunteering just because they have to. Almost every volunteer I've met in the ER is a premed student doing it because it's basically a requirement. However, you are not going to get into any medical schools without volunteering or atleast shadowing. You should know this. Applying for two cycles without ANY volunteering is crazy. As dumb as it sounds, 150 volunteer hours and 50 hours of shadowing could be the difference between 5 II and 0 II.

 

[Goro]

So now we know why you were rejected. In your OP, as LizzyM pointed out, you looked upon these as box checking. Thus, you didn't have “ the application of a person who dearly wants to be a physician; you had the application of someone who wants to be a doctor as long as it is convenient.


The successful applicants don't view volunteering the way you do. They do what love and they love what they do. Their enthusiasm for their volunteer experiences shines through at interviews.

From the wise LizzyM”: I am always reminded of a certain frequent poster of a few years ago. He was adamant about not volunteering as he did not want to give his services for free and he was busy and helping others was inconvenient. He matriculated to a medical school and lasted less than one year. He's now in school to become an accountant.

What are you going to say when asked how you know you are suited for a life of caring for the sick and suffering? “That you just know”? Imagine how that will go over!

Here's the deal: You need to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanistic side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injured people for the next 30-40 years.

Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??

We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.

Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all, but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless, the dying, or Alzheimers or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.

Service need not be "unique". If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities. The key thing is service to others less fortunate than you. And get off campus and out of your comfort zone!

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Ronald McDonald House, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

Admission to medical school, and a career in Medicine, is a privilege, not a right. It is not a reward for being a good student or having high grades + GPA+ MCAT.

You wanna be a doctor? Earn it.

I won't go off on some rant bashing volunteering. I will just say family obligations can make it harder to justify. And those obligations don't get counted as volunteer hours.

Actually I will do a small amount of bashing: I find it a little disturbing if med school adcoms are actually duped by the altruism of it all. Reminds me of high schoolers who do it for Ivy attention, and stop as soon as the decision letter comes in.

And if I'm wrong on this, hey, I got hit pretty hard earlier for describing what I felt was "checking the boxes."

 

[Gastrapathy]

As someone who has tried out multiple careers, you can't see why ADCOMs would want you to demonstrate some commitment to medicine?

 

[dontdoittheyrelying]

So now we know why you were rejected. In your OP, as LizzyM pointed out, you looked upon these as box checking. Thus, you didn't have “ the application of a person who dearly wants to be a physician; you had the application of someone who wants to be a doctor as long as it is convenient.


The successful applicants don't view volunteering the way you do. They do what love and they love what they do. Their enthusiasm for their volunteer experiences shines through at interviews.

Trimming the quote just for the sake of keeping this as short as possible. Trust me, I read it. Trust me, I appreciate the thoroughness of all of this. All good to know, even if too late.

Again, a bit of lousy attitude crept in my post. Happens more when I post from my phone.

I respect volunteering. I checked out options, and gave it a go at a VA hospital. They were adamant that it was not going to include shadowing or patient contact. I won't try to dress it up: I felt like I was just blocking people filling Rx's from doing their jobs. And what can I say, I felt like I was being disengenous. Which is, from the excerpt of your post I included, my issue: I don't view it the way I should.

So I take that as a sign that I am not meant for it. That's all fine (again, I acknowledge the inconsistency with my rants from before).

But hey, one last jab (now I'm trolling): 200,000+ physicians balked at the ACA exchange plans, because reimbursement wasn't high enough. Is their altruism where it should be? Or maybe this isn't the effective test adcoms think it is.

 

[dontdoittheyrelying]

Not terribly on topic, but I have to say, I appreciate all the heavyweight posters on SDN replying. I'm sure I'm giving off a bad vibe, but I've read your posts over the years and have to say, you've actually responded to all my posts with decency.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Not terribly on topic, but I have to say, I appreciate all the heavyweight posters on SDN replying. I'm sure I'm giving off a bad vibe, but I've read your posts over the years and have to say, you've actually responded to all my posts with decency.

Actually, you definitely turned around your attitude. At least in my eyes. It was understandable frustration, but it's good to see you're probably not an insufferable jackass.

 

[libahli]

I need to be upfront that I haven't read every post on this thread but I do believe I've gotten the gist of what's been said.

I'm not a frequent poster but I specifically want to chime in because I'm a (career-changer) nontrad who is currently at the tail end of a very successful cycle and I am not a vet, URM, or any other special candidate. So I definitely don't think you have to be any of those to be a successful nontrad applicant.

I think something that may be hindering you is your lack of awareness that becoming a physician in this country is a huge privilege and not a given once you've just met basic criteria (which for most other graduate programs IS generally the case).

As a nontrad, I do think it's okay if you have a checklist mentality of CERTAIN parts of your application but the rest of your application should pretty much just reflect what you've been doing with your life. So for example, I think shadowing is definitely a checklist item - very important to have and not something you'd likely have if you weren't applying to medical school. But volunteering? Heck, in my former career, pretty much no one volunteered (ain't no time for it). Happens to be, volunteering was always important to me so I had a bunch of it that I could put on my application. I had no idea when I was doing most of the volunteering that I'd ever be applying to medical school and that it would be useful to put on my application. I simply did it because it was important to me. The fact that it ended up being useful for my application was just a random side benefit that I never could have anticipated. Same with many of my other experiences.

Look, I get that it's super frustrating and that you want to place blame of your failed cycle on something. But I think that saying your status as a nontrad should have helped you is kind of naive. If you haven't done anything to show why your nontraditionality is a pro to your candidacy, then I don't think it's reasonable to expect the adcoms to treat it as such.

 

[dontdoittheyrelying]

Actually, you definitely turned around your attitude. At least in my eyes. It was understandable frustration, but it's good to see you're probably not an insufferable jackass.

Oh, it all depends on the hour of the day, man - insufferable here and there, sometimes for such a stretch you can see it in multiple posts, sometimes in just brief bursts that show up at the end of posts. Thanks for the kindness!

I need to be upfront that I haven't read every post on this thread but I do believe I've gotten the gist of what's been said.

I'm not a frequent poster but I specifically want to chime in because I'm a (career-changer) nontrad who is currently at the tail end of a very successful cycle and I am not a vet, URM, or any other special candidate. So I definitely don't think you have to be any of those to be a successful nontrad applicant.

I think something that may be hindering you is your lack of awareness that becoming a physician in this country is a huge privilege and not a given once you've just met basic criteria (which for most other graduate programs IS generally the case).

As a nontrad, I do think it's okay if you have a checklist mentality of CERTAIN parts of your application but the rest of your application should pretty much just reflect what you've been doing with your life. So for example, I think shadowing is definitely a checklist item - very important to have and not something you'd likely have if you weren't applying to medical school. But volunteering? Heck, in my former career, pretty much no one volunteered (ain't no time for it). Happens to be, volunteering was always important to me so I had a bunch of it that I could put on my application. I had no idea when I was doing most of the volunteering that I'd ever be applying to medical school and that it would be useful to put on my application. I simply did it because it was important to me. The fact that it ended up being useful for my application was just a random side benefit that I never could have anticipated. Same with many of my other experiences.

Look, I get that it's super frustrating and that you want to place blame of your failed cycle on something. But I think that saying your status as a nontrad should have helped you is kind of naive. If you haven't done anything to show why your nontraditionality is a pro to your candidacy, then I don't think it's reasonable to expect the adcoms to treat it as such.

Couldn't be happier for you, nor more jealous of you. Yeah, the vet/URM/other special candidate thing slipped out, only because I envy having the ability to articulate a clear answer of "why doctor?" And naturally, I expect to encounter people with a bit more purity of heart than me.

 

[el_duderino]

Volunteering doesn't have to be medical. It's worthwhile to do something, anything, that you don't get paid for and benefits others in some way. Running a local tennis league, volunteering IT work for a local church camp, whatever. Having volunteer experience in your past doesn't need to be soup kitchens.

It should just be something you do because there's something in life you like or care about and are willing to put in some extra work to make it better.

 

[dontdoittheyrelying]

Volunteering doesn't have to be medical. It's worthwhile to do something, anything, that you don't get paid for and benefits others in some way. Running a local tennis league, volunteering IT work for a local church camp, whatever. Having volunteer experience in your past doesn't need to be soup kitchens.

It should just be something you do because there's something in life you like or care about and are willing to put in some extra work to make it better.

Okay, I'll add the one I did like, but it was after my apps went out. Volunteering in a local school. Great time, loved it. But realistically, not doable alongside the courses (purely because of time conflicts). But yeah, I'm not totally deranged. I know volunteering can be good.

 

[libahli]

Okay, I'll add the one I did like, but it was after my apps went out. Volunteering in a local school. Great time, loved it. But realistically, not doable alongside the courses (purely because of time conflicts). But yeah, I'm not totally deranged. I know volunteering can be good.

Volunteering was but just one example. I'm no Mother Theresa. A lot of the experiences on my application were not volunteer-related but just things I had done with my time (besides work) since I had gotten my degree. The point I was trying to make (and I'm sorry it didn't come across as such, I had no intention of making you feel like you should be spending time you don't have to volunteer) is simply that most of the experiences you list on the AMCAS should come naturally just from what you've done with your time since you graduated. Have an interesting hobby that you spend lots of energy on? How about a leadership experience through one of your grad school programs? I'm sure you have interesting things to show for your life - you might just have to dig a little deeper to figure out what you've done that can help show why you want to be a doctor and why you should be accepted - aka why should the adcoms believe you when you say you've done your research and know that being a physician is a good fit for you based upon your past experiences.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Okay, I'll add the one I did like, but it was after my apps went out. Volunteering in a local school. Great time, loved it. But realistically, not doable alongside the courses (purely because of time conflicts). But yeah, I'm not totally deranged. I know volunteering can be good.

Do you have something eating up all your time? The amount of volunteer hours I accumulated while doing research and working 70 hours per week and finishing my degree and raising two kids etc is pretty competitive. I feel like most people can make it happen.

 

[dontdoittheyrelying]

Do you have something eating up all your time? The amount of volunteer hours I accumulated while doing research and working 70 hours per week and finishing my degree and raising two kids etc is pretty competitive. I feel like most people can make it happen.

Dude, I won't even try to compete on this. All that on your plate? Good luck! I had [a lot] less, and still felt tired. So hey, maybe it's a matter of stamina.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Dude, I won't even try to compete on this. All that on your plate? Good luck! I had [a lot] less, and still felt tired. So hey, maybe it's a matter of stamina.

You can make it happen if you really want it. It's just a matter of pushing.

 

[DrCaffeinated]

I hope what other non trads get from this cautionary tale is that medical school is just as competitive for them as any other premeds, they can't expect red flags on their application to be given a pass because they are older and they don't have the luxury of not applying widely and to DO schools.

 

[dontdoittheyrelying]

I hope what other non trads get from this cautionary tale is that medical school is just as competitive for them as any other premeds, they can't expect red flags on their application to be given a pass because they are older and they don't have the luxury of not applying widely and to DO schools.

...except I did apply pretty broadly (I know, 20 doesn't sound high, but still), and can't we use something other than "red flag"? Call me "incomplete" or "unfinished" or something. Has a nicer sound to it.

 

[DrCaffeinated]

...except I did apply pretty broadly (I know, 20 doesn't sound high, but still), and can't we use something other than "red flag"? Call me "incomplete" or "unfinished" or something. Has a nicer sound to it.

A missing LOR makes an incomplete application. No volunteering or clinical experience is a red flag.

You can apply to 20 schools and if you only applied to top 20 schools, I wouldn't call that broad. You didn't specify your school list, but if you insist you applied broadly, than I'll withdraw that part to make you feel better.

You really shot yourself in the foot by not applying DO. But... I doubt it wold make a difference with an application that is so... "incomplete..."

 

[dontdoittheyrelying]

A missing LOR makes an incomplete application. No volunteering or clinical experience is a red flag.

You can apply to 20 schools and if you only applied to top 20 schools, I wouldn't call that broad. You didn't specify your school list, but if you insist you applied broadly, than I'll withdraw that part to make you feel better.

You really shot yourself in the foot by not applying DO. But... I doubt it wold make a difference with an application that is so... "incomplete..."

I had clinical experience and shadowing (not a ton of shadowing, admittedly, ~45 hours). Yes, I've been cagey about my app. Sorry, I get that way online. Trust me, you're getting the worst version of me this way. And withdrawing it made me feel 10x better.

But I should think that DO programs have the same expectations as MD programs, and would expect that I would have had a similar flop there if a bit of volunteering is the issue. Not seeing how skipping them was costly. Unless you are thinking I had an ego blocking me from it. Maybe. Though honestly, I don't know why there is even a difference anymore. [Yes, add ignorance of history of medical profession to list of flaws.]

But hey, maybe volunteering isn't the issue. Maybe my PS really, really sucked. It's just as possible, based on what I know.

 

[marcelo12]

But I should think that DO programs have the same expectations as MD programs, and would expect that I would have had a similar flop there if a bit of volunteering is the issue. Not seeing how skipping them was costly. Unless you are thinking I had an ego blocking me from it. Maybe. Though honestly, I don't know why there is even a difference anymore. [Yes, add ignorance of history of medical profession to list of flaws.]

I don't see the difference after med school, but when it comes to admissions, DO schools are more nontrad-friendly and more forgiving when it comes to mistakes/bad grades made in the past.

 

[el_duderino]

I don't see the difference after med school, but when it comes to admissions, DO schools are more nontrad-friendly and more forgiving when it comes to mistakes/bad grades made in the past.

You would think so, but I'm not sure that's true. I got 0 DO interviews and 2 MD interviews as a nontrad with past mistakes and bad grades.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You would think so, but I'm not sure that's true. I got 0 DO interviews and 2 MD interviews as a nontrad with past mistakes and bad grades.

Probably more of a reflection of your DO list. The established DO programs can be just as much of a crapshoot as MD apps. (I assume you mainly applied to these and only a handful because that's what most MD applicants do who apply both) a broad app would have netted you II up the wazoo

 

[DrCaffeinated]

I am a non trad limited by geography, with similar stats as you. I applied to every school I was able to, including DO. I did everything I could to make sure my application reflected my strong motivation to become a physician, and to show I had done all I could to learn about a physician's life and responsibilities. Like most non trads, I have extra responsibilities and stresses that my younger counterparts lack, but I have maturity to help me find novel solutions to my obstacles. I volunteered, shadowed, had my PS edited. I got advice from mentors who knew how this worked- how can I get the most out of my application, how can I do well in interviews, how do I get good LOR's? I netted 2 DO acceptances right at the beginning of the cycle. Yep, I took the time to learn about DO, and i guess if it wasn't worth your time to look into it, you probably shouldn't apply to those schools. I would be perfectly happy at either of those schools, but I prefer to not have the extra OMT to learn on top of the equivalent MD content. And there are MD schools that are cheaper and closer to my family that would be a better situation. So I'm waitlisted at one of those schools, waiting to hear from the 2 others I interviewed at. This is what I really wanted to do, I don't want to spend another year or two reapplying, I had to make this shot count. So I did everything I could to make it happen. And thanks to the opportunity to apply DO, I know at the end of the cycle, I am going to start medical school somewhere. That's a huge relief after such a costly application process.

My point is... We're all doing this too. it's a little hard to feel sorry for you, when we had to jump through the same hoops, but put in a little more effort... so that's why we aren't being as sympathetic as you would like.

And on top of it, you have an entitled tone, which never goes over very well here. I feel lucky. It's a privilege to go to medical school, and to be someone's physician. It's rare in this world to get to follow such lofty dreams. My application was one of thousands at each school. When you look at the numbers, the odds are staggering. I knew perfectly well going into this that despite my best efforts, I might come out empty handed. I am lucky.

You words of caution are that this is a huge risk-- but you knew that going into it, didn't you?

 

[Med Ed]

Sounds like the system worked.

 

[el_duderino]

Probably more of a reflection of your DO list. The established DO programs can be just as much of a crapshoot as MD apps. (I assume you mainly applied to these and only a handful because that's what most MD applicants do who apply both) a broad app would have netted you II up the wazoo

I applied to I think around 7 or 8 schools. LECOM, UNECOM, PCOM, UMDNJ, Chicago, Nova, one or two others. I had a pretty big "mistake" in my past and my cGPA was below 3.0, though. Still weird that I got MD interviews and no DO.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I applied to I think around 7 or 8 schools. LECOM, UNECOM, PCOM, UMDNJ, Chicago, Nova, one or two others. I had a pretty big "mistake" in my past and my cGPA was below 3.0, though. Still weird that I got MD interviews and no DO.

Interesting! For all those reading, this is why a broad app is important. You never know who will be interested

 

[libertyyne]

I applied to I think around 7 or 8 schools. LECOM, UNECOM, PCOM, UMDNJ, Chicago, Nova, one or two others. I had a pretty big "mistake" in my past and my cGPA was below 3.0, though. Still weird that I got MD interviews and no DO.

Are we talking IA or criminal mistake.DO schools tend to be less forgiving on those matters.

 

[el_duderino]

Are we talking IA or criminal mistake.DO schools tend to be less forgiving on those matters.

No criminal stuff, no. Failed out of undergrad >10 years ago with two semesters of F's because I stopped going to class.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

No criminal stuff, no. Failed out of undergrad >10 years ago with two semesters of F's because I stopped going to class.

Ah yes, the thought process of the young and stupid. It's amazing how we think when we are still teenagers, without a care in the world about how our futures just might be getting ruined.

 

[Winged Scapula]

While the thread may be turning around, several posts (and everyone really) need to remember that the use of profanity, attempting to evade the profanity filter and calling each other names are TOS violations and are not tolerated.

 

[Promethean]

But hey, one last jab (now I'm trolling): 200,000+ physicians balked at the ACA exchange plans, because reimbursement wasn't high enough. Is their altruism where it should be? Or maybe this isn't the effective test adcoms think it is.

You said it was trolling, but I'm still going to answer you, because I think this notion deserves a thorough and thoughtful answer. Although I'm about to school you, please understand that it is without animosity. My intent is not to argue, but to educate.

I'm taking a lifetime paycut to be a family med doc as compared to continuing in my previous career. Not only am I incurring a quarter million of debt, and half a million of lost opportunity costs, but the average salary that I could expect is not significantly higher than I could have earned working about as a many hours a year doing travel OR nursing. (Incidentally, while that work can be very intense in the moment, it is usually very pleasant, predictable, and reasonably low stress work, especially as compared to the responsibility held by physicians. Also, it is a gig where one can generally clock out at a predictable time and be really free of any further thought or responsibility, unlike being someone's doctor.)

You can't look only at the income side of medicine to determine whether it is a high paying career. You have to also consider the ongoing expenses, as well as the invested capital and the opportunity costs. Those reimbursements aren't going right into a physician's pocket. There is overhead and staff to pay for private practice docs, and employed physicians may find that they have to see more patients (and thus shortchange more of them with rapid appointments) in order to meet productivity goals.

Doctors are just NOT where the expense in medical care comes from. Most of the increase in costs are attributable to bloated administration and predatory pricing of medical technology/pharms/devices. ($250 for a foam pillow that would cost 10% as much at full retail, if it weren't being marketed as a medical device, etc. The examples are too numerous to name.) We are, however, an easy target for cost cutting because of perceptions like yours, that we are somehow overpaid and money motivated.

 

[dwgrubbs1s]

Why not D.O if you can't get into M.D? I would say given your stats you should have some success in the M.D. process. Like others have said, this would possibly indicate a red flag somewhere else in your application. Judging by your initial post, it seems as if you have an entitlement issue. This typically is easy to pickup when having a conversation with someone and no one owes you a damn thing. In regards to being highly questioned about your career change. Again, as others have said, your becoming a physician. Your not filing taxes, managing stores, etc. You are literally in control of peoples lives in many cases. So yes, it makes perfect sense for a committee or board to question your reasoning for entering the field with such high pressure, with a lot of years ahead of you. (And little pay until you become an attending physician). If you cannot articulate adequately why you want that in your life as opposed to another field, then you likely lack true passion for the field. As any medical student or resident will tell you, you had better have a pretty damn good passion for the field during those 16 hour shifts or when you are missing out on time with family and friends due to studying for medical school. This isn't just a career change, this is a life change, and medicine will be your life. You officially become property of the medical school and the medical system once you enter the field. This is too much pressure for a lot of people, which is why medical schools see if people have intestinal fortitude prior to admitting them.

 

[el_duderino]

This isn't just a career change, this is a life change, and medicine will be your life. You officially become property of the medical school and the medical system once you enter the field.

Dude.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You said it was trolling, but I'm still going to answer you, because I think this notion deserves a thorough and thoughtful answer. Although I'm about to school you, please understand that it is without animosity. My intent is not to argue, but to educate.

I'm taking a lifetime paycut to be a family med doc as compared to continuing in my previous career. Not only am I incurring a quarter million of debt, and half a million of lost opportunity costs, but the average salary that I could expect is not significantly higher than I could have earned working about as a many hours a year doing travel OR nursing. (Incidentally, while that work can be very intense in the moment, it is usually very pleasant, predictable, and reasonably low stress work, especially as compared to the responsibility held by physicians. Also, it is a gig where one can generally clock out at a predictable time and be really free of any further thought or responsibility, unlike being someone's doctor.)

You can't look only at the income side of medicine to determine whether it is a high paying career. You have to also consider the ongoing expenses, as well as the invested capital and the opportunity costs. Those reimbursements aren't going right into a physician's pocket. There is overhead and staff to pay for private practice docs, and employed physicians may find that they have to see more patients (and thus shortchange more of them with rapid appointments) in order to meet productivity goals.

Doctors are just NOT where the expense in medical care comes from. Most of the increase in costs are attributable to bloated administration and predatory pricing of medical technology/pharms/devices. ($250 for a foam pillow that would cost 10% as much at full retail, if it weren't being marketed as a medical device, etc. The examples are too numerous to name.) We are, however, an easy target for cost cutting because of perceptions like yours, that we are somehow overpaid and money motivated.

Great points.

Physician take-salaries make up something like 8% of national healthcare spending, and reducing that even by 20% would only reduce overall national spending by less than 2%. Doctor salaries are NOT the problem, as you so eloquently point out.