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[deleted922750]

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[bluemamba7]

I'm a non-trad student. Let me know what you guys think? what else I can focus on?

While in college

Teaching 420 hours over the course of 2 years
Research 400 hours over the course of 1 year (including summer)
Non clinical volunteer 130 hours over the course of 6 months (including summer)

Before college

Shadowing 240 hours over the course of 6 months
Medical employment/Clinical exposure 4000 hours over the course of 2 years

Note:

My activities in college are staggered. My activities before college both happened in the course of 2 years.

Let me know! Thanks!

Do you have any clinical volunteering?

 

[PopeKnope23]

Sorry to jump in but question for @gonnif --- I will have about 130 nonclinical volunteering at a single homeless shelter by the time I apply. I know that's not a lot, but compared to my 50 hours of shadowing and 100 of clinical volunteering, will I seem balanced enough? It's not like I have 1000s of hours in one area and only 1oo in another. This is also alongside having 3 jobs (pharm tech, on campus, and doctor's office) and working as a tutor... should I be concerned?

 

[RNtoMD87]

Even with the significant clinical employment, you have lower nonclinical volunteer hours and no clinical volunteer hours. What was your clinical job?

I thought with a clinical employment, clinical volunteer wasn't necessary?

 

[RNtoMD87]

I hope so. If I do clinical volunteering, I doubt that I will gain any experience that I haven't/can't gain from working as a critical care nurse.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Thank you brother

-Til Valhalla

 

[bluemamba7]

I thought with a clinical employment, clinical volunteer wasn't necessary?

That’s incorrect since clinical volunteering shows your altruistic character, specifically with regards to patients.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Working in a clinical area also shows altruistic character. Definitely not a nurse for the money, trust me. Plenty of fields pay much better, with much less headache.

 

[RNtoMD87]

@Goro Your take?

Blue-here is my reasoning.

1. What are you allowed to do as a clinical volunteer? Nurses have many responsibilities that take much more blood and sweat than a volunteer. I've seen clinical volunteers that do things such as greet patients, file paper, etc. How does this demonstrate hard work and empathy? Now if you're talking about going on a Mercy Ship and traveling to Africa, or volunteering to work at a disaster etc, I can agree with you. But not the majority of clinical volunteer work I've seen people discuss.
We have to counsel patients families after they have just passed. This is very difficult emotionally and mentally. It takes not only skill but a high level of empathy.
We have to educate patients that are illiterate/barely literate. This takes a lot of patience and skill.
We are often subject to violence, there was a brawl in the hospital last week after a gunshot victim died, and his family fell out and fought. Myself and another nurse got punched in the ensuing chaos.

2. Premeds with clinical work experience still have volunteer experience. I volunteer with the underserved at the YMCA teaching prediabetes education as well as at the coroners office as an autopsy intern.

3. From what I've gathered, the intention of clinical experience and shadowing is to crush any unrealistic romanticized ideas of what working in a hospital/with patients is like. I've been told by adcoms that even shadowing is much less necessary for nurses and other clinical professionals. It seems the one area that is still recommended is primary care since many of us have no primary/out patient care experience.

4. You say clinical volunteering is free of ulterior motives besides altruism. FALSE. Many premeds do it in order to get into medschool. Do you think nearly as many would just do it, to do it? A few would... but the majority?

Nurses don't probably get paid as much as you think. Starting pay is 22.75 per hour. Not really that much. I'm not complaining, I manage a farm and that brings in much more money, but if someone chooses to be a nurse for the money, it makes about as much sense as becoming a doctor for the money. If you don't enjoy helping people, the money is NOT worth it.

 

[bluemamba7]

@Goro Your take?

Blue-here is my reasoning.

1. What are you allowed to do as a clinical volunteer? Nurses have many responsibilities that take much more blood and sweat than a volunteer.
We have to counsel patients families after they have just passed. This is very difficult emotionally and mentally. It takes not only skill but a high level of empathy.
We have to educate patients that are illiterate/barely literate. This takes a lot of patience and skill.
We are often subject to violence, there was a brawl in the hospital last week after a gunshot victim died, and his family fell out and fought. Myself and another nurse got punched in the ensuing chaos.

2. Premeds with clinical work experience still have volunteer experience. I volunteer with the underserved at the YMCA teaching prediabetes education as well as at the coroners office as an autopsy intern.

3. From what I've gathered, the intention of clinical experience and shadowing is to crush any unrealistic romanticized ideas of what working in a hospital/with patients is like. I've been told by adcoms that even shadowing is much less necessary for nurses and other clinical professionals. It seems the one area that is still recommended is primary care since many of us have no primary/out patient care experience.

Nurses don't probably get paid as much as you think. Starting pay is 22.75 per hour. Not really that much. I'm not complaining, I manage a farm and that brings in much more money, but if someone chooses to be a nurse for the money, it makes about as much sense as becoming a doctor for the money. If you don't enjoy helping people, the money is NOT worth it.

I agree, and I’m too lazy to scroll up and look to see if you’ve mentioned it or not, but it can’t hurt to start volunteering at a hospital ASAP, especially if you’re not applying this year. You definitely have a lot of great experiences to write about in your primary/secondaries, but my take on it is why “waste” or taint that great experience with no clinical volunteering (assuming it’s lethal). Rather, it’ll only make your application shine even brighter by having clinical volunteering. That’s my take on it, but let’s wait for goros response

 

[RNtoMD87]

Well time that I spend doing clinical volunteering is time that I can't spend doing nonclinical volunteering. And my nonclinical volunteering is much more worthwhile than what I would be doing clinically. I am able to teach underserved, diabetic at risk populations about managing diabetes and hold them accountable to themselves for making healthy choices. In my mind it is as important if not more so than what I do in the hospital, since for many of them it is too late/ not too late but they are set in their ways and less open to listening. The paid position that I am volunteering to fill requires either a registered nurse, dietician, or other healthcare professional with nutritional knowledge and credentials that permit teaching.

If I volunteered clinically, my skills would be wasted. There is nowhere I could work where I could use my abilities. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Xyzcannon18]

I hope so. If I do clinical volunteering, I doubt that I will gain any experience that I haven't/can't gain from working as a critical care nurse.

I think this is okay, but I also think that is not common among applicants. Prior to that, you had to do some clinical volunteering to become a nurse and gain acceptance (or I hope so).

 

[Xyzcannon18]

I think you're correct. I'm actually ignoring this response about the clinical hours. Clinical volunteering is just one way of exposing college students to the field. There are other ways.

I'm not sure this statement is a catch all. Technically, clinical employment could be as simple as wheeling patients around. While you might have other tasks and you're interacting with patients, it wouldn't look to good if you had 0 involvement with something related to medicine.

I volunteered in a clinic run by our SOM that offered free healthcare to our homeless and uninsured population of my city. I also volunteered in a mobile healthcare clinic that visited the rural parts of my state. At the same time, I have a clinical job. Both of these add value to my application and more importantly, value to myself as an individual. As mentioned already, I think it is important to have a well rounded application and I understand your point. In fact, my involvement with these programs have confirmed the type of medicine I'd love to do and the population I hope to work with. However, I would still take some time to squeeze in some clinical volunteering. You might find you love something. But what do I know? I'd trust the advice of the ADCOMs.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Clinical volunteering is only 2-3hrs/week tops. If I have time to do it as a full time university student, full time worker, part time worker, and continue my other ECs, you have time to do it with no excuses.




As a clinical volunteer, you are not there to use your skills as a nurse or health care professional, but rather as a human being. You talk to patients, relate to them, and do whatever you can to make their stay better, something that paid workers cannot do to the same level as volunteers due to their other responsibilities, as you mentioned earlier. I’ve experienced this, ER techs experience this, nurses experiences this, and even doctors experience this. Due to their work, they simply cannot dedicate the time the patient deserves, which is where volunteers come in. (Also, from your earlier post, you seem to suggest that nurses get a lot more crap than volunteers, well I would beg to differ. Volunteers have to take the toll from the physician, nurses, lab techs, and patients. I’ve personally never had any negative experiences working as a volunteer, but there have been a lot of posts on SDN about the mistreatment of volunteers, especially by nurses.) Even physicians today who have the greatest set of skills in the healthcare industry are humbled by showing kindness and empathy towards others over using their skill sets by volunteering. The point being is that even though you are much more qualified to do a particular task does not mean you cannot or should not do it.

Why would a volunteer ever be in trouble with a nurse, physician, etc? What power do they have to “screw something up” when they have no real responsibilities except to comfort a patient and only put in a few hours per week?

I’ve had patients physically attack me for not being able to give them pain meds in the ER, trying to de-escalate conflicts after the loss of a loved one, or being mentally incompetent and fighting at me while trying to restrain them.

As a new nurse I’ve also had my share of doctors mad at me from not meeting their expectations in the ICU (it’s a lot for a new nurse, titrating several drips at once, maintaining proper RASS score, etc).

If I can disagree on just one point, it’s the fact that being a volunteer can NOT be nearly as stressful as being a professional with real expectations on them.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I think this is okay, but I also think that is not common among applicants. Prior to that, you had to do some clinical volunteering to become a nurse and gain acceptance (or I hope so).

Are clinicals considered volunteer hours? I wouldn’t expect so

 

[bluemamba7]

Why would a volunteer ever be in trouble with a nurse, physician, etc? What power do they have to “screw something up” when they have no real responsibilities except to comfort a patient and only put in a few hours per week?

I’ve had patients physically attack me for not being able to give them pain meds in the ER, trying to de-escalate conflicts after the loss of a loved one, or being mentally incompetent and fighting at me while trying to restrain them.

As a new nurse I’ve also had my share of doctors mad at me from not meeting their expectations in the ICU (it’s a lot for a new nurse, titrating several drips at once, maintaining proper RASS score, etc).

If I can disagree on just one point, it’s the fact that being a volunteer can NOT be nearly as stressful as being a professional with real expectations on them.

I’m leaving this post because you seem to want to argue more rather than looking at the main point I’m trying to say. Have a good day and good luck on your app

 

[RNtoMD87]

I’m leaving this post because you seem to want to argue more rather than looking at the main point I’m trying to say. Have a good day and good luck on your app

I’m disagreeing on a single point you made. I am considering the other points you discussed.

 

[JustAUser]

It seems as if no one bothered to read Gonnif's response.

If you take a look at the 2018 survey (N=130) that Goniff linked, clinical volunteering/community service had a higher importance rating than paid clinical/medical employment.

 

[RNtoMD87]

My main concern with clinical volunteering is an overlapping of responsibilities. If I am a state registered nurse, I am not the same as someone with no medical liability in the same scenario. My licensure may provide certain expectations, while the volunteer job does not give me the authority to carry it out. My state nursing board wouldn’t care that I’m performing as a volunteer in a role. I am still an RN.

Also, let’s say I am placed under an LPN or a CNA. That causes role conflicts because I have more training and possibly experience than they do. It’s very confusing and not as simple as it may seem.

Imagine that you are/ reflect on the fact that you are an MD.

How would you feel about and what implications would volunteering and having a nurse in charge of you in a hospital setting have?

I work under autopsy technicians with only a few months training which is fine for me, because since the subject is dead, my licensure is not applicable. Also, while teaching prediabetes education at the YMCA, I am not performing medical care nor am I in a medical setting. A registered dietitian is in charge of that program.

@Goro are my concerns legitimate?

 

[Deleted member 737595]

It seems as if no one bothered to read Gonnif's response.

If you take a look at the 2018 survey (N=130) that Goniff linked, clinical volunteering/community service had a higher importance rating than paid clinical/medical employment.

Thank you for this evidence. Every premed should print this out and put it on their fridge, their bedroom et cetera.

Honestly, I don't think hospital/clinical volunteering is necessary when you have a ton of clinical experience already.

But OP: why are you asking SDN when you could literally pick up the phone, call any US MD school and ask directly: "If I have significant clinical experience, would it be suggested or recommended to also participate as a volunteer in the clinical setting?"

Ask a few schools. Get their responses. Report back with your findings.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

That’s incorrect since clinical volunteering shows your altruistic character, specifically with regards to patients. From what I’ve personally took out of SDN, it’s the most important EC you could do

I have zero altruistic reasons to volunteer in a hospital. My only concern is to gain the clinical experience I need to decide for myself if medicine is the profession for me.

Otherwise, I would not do it. Straight up.

 

[Xyzcannon18]

Are clinicals considered volunteer hours? I wouldn’t expect so

I would assume so as well. This, however, is not the point I am making. Most people applying are not RNs and do not have the opportunity for clinical hours through nursing.

As stated before, I think your hours are important, but as also pointed out, as far as medical school goes clinical paid hours are not as important as volunteering. I'm simply stating that you should at least try to get a few hours on the weekends. We'd love to have someone like you at those rural health clinics that I spoke of because an experienced nurse usually trumps an inexperienced MS1 or MS2. There your talent and information will not be "wasted".

 

[bbdylan87]

I thought with a clinical employment, clinical volunteer wasn't necessary?

If you look at the MSAR, most schools (if not all) have 85% or greater of their matriculated students having some form of clinical volunteering. I think it would be wise to have clinical volunteering on your app, even if just to box check, since it's kinda the norm now a days

 

[Deleted member 737595]

Good for you bud, clearly not all pre-meds are created equal. I’m not saying the ONLY reason to volunteer is for altruistic reasons, but I think I speak for most premeds when I say that a large proportion of us are not doing it solely for box checking or experience as you are (you do know that you can do both, helping others and gaining experience at the same time right?). It also slightly bothers/scares me that a potential doctor has absolutely “zero altruistic reasons to volunteer in a hospital” with patients. Straight up

Big deal. Pretty much everywhere outside of the US, there is no such thing as clinical volunteering as a requirement for medical school. Its two things: grades and exam scores. Are all doctors outside of the US selfish scumbags? No.

The reason I feel zero altruism in my decision to volunteer is because there is very little I can do to care for the welfare of others as a volunteer. And I should revise my earlier statement: altruism had little to do with my decision to volunteer, but as a volunteer I surely exhibit and feel a sense of altruism, yes, because there are many times that I help out people in the ED even when I don't really 'need to' as a volunteer; I do it out of compassion and empathy. But my original decision to start volunteering was out of necessity.

The VAST majority of premeds I know think or say something along the lines of "shoot, I need to start volunteering at a hospital for premed." Its a known fact that volunteering or clinical experience in general is a prereq of medical school admissions at this point.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Big deal. Pretty much everywhere outside of the US, there is no such thing as clinical volunteering as a requirement for medical school. Its two things: grades and exam scores. Are all doctors outside of the US selfish scumbags? No.

The reason I feel zero altruism in my decision to volunteer is because there is very little I can do to care for the welfare of others as a volunteer. And I should revise my earlier statement: altruism had little to do with my decision to volunteer, but as a volunteer I surely exhibit and feel a sense of altruism, yes, because there are many times that I help out people in the ED even when I don't really 'need to' as a volunteer; I do it out of compassion and empathy. But my original decision to start volunteering was out of necessity.

The VAST majority of premeds I know think or say something along the lines of "shoot, I need to start volunteering at a hospital for premed." Its a known fact that volunteering or clinical experience in general is a prereq of medical school admissions at this point.

You are correct. I love volunteering when I do it, but I wouldn’t have just done it otherwise. After serving my country, working as an RN, and taking care of my future step son, I feel quite altruistic already. However I don’t mind volunteering, but if I do it, it better count for something as well. That’s time I could be working and helping my girlfriend and her son out financially, and simply just seeing them. I only see them a day a week right now. When you’re a full time college student, full time nurse pulling 60+ hours a week, and volunteering, you literally have no time for anyone else. A few extra hours with them a week would be priceless.

 

[RNtoMD87]

How are your ECs and stats besides the lack of clinical volunteer hours?

Currently everything I have:

Career- 2 Years Registered Nurse critical care experience

Military-
5 Years Army active duty with 1 year deployed to Iraq.

Volunteer non clinical
YMCA prediabetes classes- 4 hours (only meets 1 hour per week so it takes awhile to build up hours)

Parish coroners office autopsy intern- 17 hours

Still contracted at my hospital as a CCRN until April 2019.

Have Gchem, Ochem, Biochem, physics left.

cGPA as of now is approx 3.5
sGPA so far is 3.77

Major uptrend in GPA. 3.9 GPA since I left the army in 2012.

Gpa from 2006-2007 was 2.3 I failed algebra so a big hit to my sGPA comes from that. Retook it since ETSing from the Army with an A.

 

[RNtoMD87]

How many more years/semesters do you have left? Don't worry much about the hours. Focus on the span of volunteering. Nobody can really say **** about commitment when they read the army part.

I have about 3 years until I can possibly apply. 1 year at the hospital full time then I can work on 2 years of prereqs/MCAT study.