Wow, things have been dead around here

[Vet2B]

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So, I noticed, not much traffic around here.
Anyway, I was wondering you guy's feelings on controversial procedures such as tail/ear docking, declawing, etc.

I personally will not do either procedure if I ever get my own practice. I believe that subjecting an animal to that type of "modification" to make it look more attractive (docking) or in lew of trying alternatives (declawing) is cruel. Even with "laser surgery" the animal feels pain and no matter how minimal, I personally do not feel that it is right.

Your thoughts?

 

[Centrum]

I used to work for a vet who put tail docking in a new light. When asked if it really hurts the puppies he simply responded, "Well, I don't remember getting anything of mine cut off." It isn't a totally traumatic procedure. I am sure it isn't comfortable at the time, but they don't remember it past the short period it takes to heal.

 

[dvm n 06]

I would never declaw/ear crop/tail dock one of my own animals because I feel that there are other alternatives to declawing and ear cropping/tail docking don't really have any medical purposes. However I don't believe that declawing should be outlawed. I don't really care if ear cropping/tail docking is outlawed (I doubt that I will ever own a purebred dog so cosmetics aren't really important to me. I will probably declaw cats once I get into practice. I don't believe it's a decision for the legislature to make. I think it's a decision for the client and veterinarian to make. I will declaw a cat if the owner has tried everything possible to deter their cat from scratching and they are at the point of giving up their cat. I will first try to educate the client about normal cat behaviors and give them information on alternatives to declawing. I also believe it is acceptable to declaw a cat if the owner is immune-compromised or older and absolutely cannot be scratched by a cat. I don't believe that a cat should go to a shelter where it will probably euthanized if it can be avoided by a simple procedure. With adequate pain meds (especially if done at a young age), most cats recover quite well from the declawing procedure. That being said I respect those who will not declaw cats as a veterinarian. It is a personal decison and each person has to make their own decision on the matter.

While we're talking about ethical dilemmas, how do you all feel about convenience euthanasias?

 

[osteovet]

Yes, its all part of the way society is! Sure lets build the crap out of all the woodland, shoot the deer, use bug zappers, wash our hands 100000000 times a day, use more make up, plant non-indigenous plant species in our back yard, take magic diet pills, use chemicals for everything (eat them too!), ect.......Its all supposed to be improvement! So, now we must improve the cat by eliminating its claws!
The only improvement in eliminating a cat's claws is to deter them from killing various wildlife, which is a good thing because they are not natural predators. I feel that if for any reason someone wants to get a cat declawed, then they do not really know or love the cat! The cat's claws give it its "catness", for instance if you were ever eating a can of tuna and gave your cat a small piece, you may notice that the cat will cut the small piece of tuna (with its claws) into a smaller piece that is even more desirable. Cats are very dexterous with their claws, I mean could you imagine having a distal amputation like that. I don't know about others, but I play the piano, and other various stringed instuments, and if I did not have the tips of my fingers I just could not play good! I would have to take on another hobby like playing patty-cake with kids at a day care, or something like that!

 

[Teufelhunden]

Yeah, whatever...in the mean time all your furniture is tore to shreds and looks like sh|t.

I love my cat, and he's de-clawed. If he hadn't been de-clawed, he'd be locked in the basement 24/7 and what kind of quality of life would that be???

And for those of you that think cats can be trained to not tear the sh|t out of everything you own....well....good luck with that.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by osteovet
Yes, its all part of the way society is! Sure lets build the crap out of all the woodland, shoot the deer, use bug zappers, wash our hands 100000000 times a day, use more make up, plant non-indigenous plant species in our back yard, take magic diet pills, use chemicals for everything (eat them too!), ect.......Its all supposed to be improvement!

Uhhh....it IS improvement.

Woodland is overrated. I have never complained that "there isn't enough woodland," however I often complain of lack of parking. We should be laying down more pavement.

Shoot the deer? Of course we should. For one, they're pretty damned tasty. Secondly, if we don't their population will be out of control and we'll all be running over 2-3 deer per day.

Uhhh...washing hands is good...do I really need to defend this one???

Make-up is good...for many women, it is absolutely essential.

As far as planting non-indiginous plants....uhhh, I don't know about you, but the "indiginous" plants in my yard are called "weeds" and they are ugly. I can already tell that you're that person in the neighborhood with the nasty yard full of weeds.

Magic diet pills aren't the worst idea in the world either, considering we're a country full of lard-a**es.

Those chemicals we eat...the ones that keep our food from rotting...yeah...I kinda like those too.😉

 

[dvm n 06]

Woah, we are all entitled to our own opinion. I am not saying that declawing is the greatest option in the world. I am also not saying that it is wrong for a vet to refuse to declaw a cat. I am simply saying that you are not going to instill your beliefs into all of your clients. Some of them once you educate them will decide not to declaw their cats, others will either take their cat to the vet down the road or take their cat to the humane society. If you decide not to declaw that animal then it is out of your hands. It will either be declawed by someone else or end up in a shelter. Not every client will latch on to your beliefs and you will have to learn to accept that.

If you think declawing is destroying a cat's "catness" then what about how we have totally changed their diet. In the wild, cats eat mostly protein whereas we mostly feed them dry cereal jam-packed with carbohydrates for our convenience. Most people are all about convenience. If it takes any amount of time, they don't want to fool with it. Why else would the number one cause of relinquishment to shelters be due to behavioral problems. A lot of pet owners don't want to take the time to condition their pet and work through behavior modification exercises. We have enough animals dying every year in shelters. Why add to the shelter problem by adding in cats who were given up because their vet (or legislature) did not allow them to declaw their pet? I'm just saying that I believe the decision should be made on a case by case basis after careful consideration of all the options and educating the client. What is so wrong about that?

 

[Vet2B]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
Yeah, whatever...in the mean time all your furniture is tore to shreds and looks like sh|t.

I love my cat, and he's de-clawed. If he hadn't been de-clawed, he'd be locked in the basement 24/7 and what kind of quality of life would that be???

And for those of you that think cats can be trained to not tear the sh|t out of everything you own....well....good luck with that.

Uhm, I'm one that thinks cats can be trained to not tear the shlt out fo everything. I have 5, all with claws and none of my stuff gets messed up. They have scratching posts that they use. I trained them with softpaws when they were kittens.

 

[Vet2B]

Originally posted by dvm n 06

While we're talking about ethical dilemmas, how do you all feel about convenience euthanasias?

I think that the fact we, as vets, will have to even make this decision is a sad testament to humans. But to answer your question, absolutly not. There are TONS of rescue groups that will foster and find homes for animals. I think I'll have the hardest time not hurting the person that comes to me and says "Put my dog to sleep, we're moving and I don't want to fool with him anymore" GRRRRRR

 

[loo]

Adding my 2 cents...

Until people stop viewing animals as property and start assigning them more value; a lot of the practices such as docking, convenience euthanasia, etc. will not decrease. Good news is that laws are being changed to reflect animal's status, such as increased penalties and possible jail time for crimes against animals. Education is a powerful tool that vets have and must use. However, a vet's own belief system cannot be forced on a client.

loo

 

[cudvm2005]

Considering declawing and convenience euthanasia, I suppose none of you have come across this client:

"Doctor, I've tried everything, and Fluffy will not stop scratching my new rug, furniture piece, etc. I am pregnant and worried she will scratch my new baby. I want her Declawed her or I will have her euthanized. No I won't put her in a pound, they torture pets there. Or someone might adopt her that will torture her. I can't bear to think of her being hurt in any way."

If you don't think it's out there, you've not been working in the field long enough. As a future vet who is completely against declawing, I will say that in this case I would declaw the cat. I'd rather the cat be alive and declawed, then dead.

 

[Vet2B]

Originally posted by cudvm2005
Considering declawing and convenience euthanasia, I suppose none of you have come across this client:

"Doctor, I've tried everything, and Fluffy will not stop scratching my new rug, furniture piece, etc. I am pregnant and worried she will scratch my new baby. I want her Declawed her or I will have her euthanized. No I won't put her in a pound, they torture pets there. Or someone might adopt her that will torture her. I can't bear to think of her being hurt in any way."

If you don't think it's out there, you've not been working in the field long enough. As a future vet who is completely against declawing, I will say that in this case I would declaw the cat. I'd rather the cat be alive and declawed, then dead.

I know it's out there, and it bothers me. I think that sometimes people say "I've tried everything" when really they haven't tried anything more than yelling at the cat. There are wonderful alternatives out there such as softpaws and sticky paws, etc.
However, if the case is cat is euthanised vs declawed, there are many Vets out there that will gladly take her money and preform the operation. I just don't think I can go against my beliefs for a few extra dollars.

 

[dvm n 06]

Not all cats can be trained to use a scratching post. Cats are independent creatures and are as a whole more difficult to train than dogs. Some people have a higher tolerance level than others. I personally have 4 cats and 3 scratching posts. None of my cats are declawed and yes once in a while they decide that the furniture is more appealing than the scratching posts. That is not acceptable to some people. It is your perogative to turn that client away, but who is to say that they won't get fed up and go down the street and have the cat euthanized?

As for convenience euthanasias, I agree that a perfectly healthy pet should not be euthanized because the family is moving. Some people should never have pets.

However there are always exceptions to every rule. What about a person with terminal cancer who wants their elderly, otherwise healthy dog euthanized when they die because they know that the dog will be stressed by being rehomed when it has never been away from her.

I do believe there are a number of good no-kill shelters/rescues out there, however the ones that I'm familiar with cannot take an infinite number of animals. It is also nearly impossible to control disease outbreak in places like this. I believe that they have the best of intentions, however some no-kill shelters have multiple animals to a cage and that is how they will live out their lives. I don't believe this is good quality of life. Some of these animals may have behavior/agression/medical problems, but they can't be euthanized because the facility is no-kill and they will probably never find a permanent home. I think it would be far better to choose animals for adoption that have been through behavior testing and deemed healthy and screened for infectious diseases and heartworm disease. I think it would be better to educate the community on pet overpopulation and the benefits of spaying/neutering. In an ideal world solving that problem would greatly reduce the number of animals euthanized in shelters. I personally believe there are fates worse than death and that an animal that is highly stressed in a shelter situation is not in my mind experiencing good quality of life. In a case like that I believe humane euthanasia is a viable alternative.

 

[cudvm2005]

There is no such thing as a truly no-kill shelter. All shelters will have policies in effect to euthanize animals who are too aggressive or unadoptable for behavior reasons. And no-kill shelters fill up fast, forcing people to surrender pets to "kill shelters", effectively killing that animal too. This summer I rescued an abandoned cat in my apartment building, and called the no-kill places first. All were full and not taking in new animals. I was forced to turn it to a kill shelter (with the understanding that if no one adopted it in 7 days I would take it back in and find a home for it.) I witnessed firsthand at another no-kill shelter by my vet school where they informed an owner looking to drop his cat off that they would have to fill out an application and wait two weeks. The owner became irate and said they would dump the cat on the side of the road because they "had it in their head that they were surrendering the animal THAT day." Luckily, another couple looking for a cat adopted that one on the spot. But my point is, no kill shelters still kill animals, just maybe not directly.

 

[osteovet]

LOL! Now, who said this place was dead! I know my post was a bit controversial (in fact the Marine Corp wanted to chew me up)! LOL! Please don't think I am that extreme on those issues, I mean, it was just something to think about. My girlfriend, and I really liked that quote by St. Francis (I am roman catholic, she is methodist). As for euthanasia, well, It just goes against my belief system to kill anything, but I know others feel different. Life is a beautiful thing, so please consider wisely your decisions to terminate it. ((smiles))
🙂

 

[dvm n 06]

I hope you choose the vet schools you apply to wisely because many programs still do terminal surgeries. I know my school does and when you go through the interview process they tell you that if you have a problem with it to go elsewhere. If you have a problem killing anything, how on earth are you going to deal with euthanasia?

 

[Vet2B]

Originally posted by loo
Adding my 2 cents...

Until people stop viewing animals as property and start assigning them more value; a lot of the practices such as docking, convenience euthanasia, etc. will not decrease. Good news is that laws are being changed to reflect animal's status, such as increased penalties and possible jail time for crimes against animals. Education is a powerful tool that vets have and must use. However, a vet's own belief system cannot be forced on a client.

loo

I believe that this is the answer as well, however every time I see something that makes me think that we are getting closer to this goal, I see something more horrible that reminds me how far we are away from it.
I know I can't force clients to believe as I believe, I just hope they will listen to my opinion and seek out the best answer for them in their situation. So many times when I explain that declawing involves amputation people are shocked. I am more shocked that no one has ever told them before.....

 

[osteovet]

I have to study for an exam this week, and do a paper, so I will get back to you guys this weekend 10/26. 🙁

 

[craff1]

Well, I'd hate to get bazooka'd by you guys, so I won't offer any opinion on the declaw thing, but I am interested in these products Sticky Paws and Soft Paws. I have one SPCA cat who came declawed and the other one I adopted at 1 yr old who is not. She ruined a couch of mine, so when replacing furniture I always consider what is her favorite type of scratching material when making a decision!

On the euthanazia thing though, one of my worst days working at the vet was when a Mastiff owner came in. The dog was diagnosed with a mild knee problem (I think beginning arthritis). The owner hadn't previously used any medication with the dog, so the vet was recommending an inexpensive drug (not like he needed Rimadyl at $30-60/month). Anyway, the owner said he didn't want a dog with a defect and ordered it euthanized. The techs called the mastiff rescue who said they would take the dog, but the owner refused, saying if he couldn't have him, he didn't want anyone else to have him. About 4 different vets talked to this guy and he wouldn't budge. The dog was put down. Everyone cried and was angry.

That's one of the things I struggled with when trying to decide between human and vet medicine. If a human comes in with a daughter's broken arm, they don't say "well, I have no money for Sx, so put her down!" It's really tough to see animals put down when they have completely "fixable" conditions. On the other hand, the vet has to operate in the black somehow! I myself took my Sheltie to the cardiologist before putting her down, just to make sure there was nothing else that could be done and to understand what exactly the problem was. Yet, if that happened today, I wouldn't have the money to take my dogs to the specialist. So I understand when people are in a bind. It's just really hard.

[email protected]

 

[southerncomfort]

Originally posted by craff1

On the euthanazia thing though, one of my worst days working at the vet was when a Mastiff owner came in. The dog was diagnosed with a mild knee problem (I think beginning arthritis). The owner hadn't previously used any medication with the dog, so the vet was recommending an inexpensive drug (not like he needed Rimadyl at $30-60/month). Anyway, the owner said he didn't want a dog with a defect and ordered it euthanized. The techs called the mastiff rescue who said they would take the dog, but the owner refused, saying if he couldn't have him, he didn't want anyone else to have him. About 4 different vets talked to this guy and he wouldn't budge. The dog was put down. Everyone cried and was angry.

That's one of the things I struggled with when trying to decide between human and vet medicine. If a human comes in with a daughter's broken arm, they don't say "well, I have no money for Sx, so put her down!" It's really tough to see animals put down when they have completely "fixable" conditions. On the other hand, the vet has to operate in the black somehow! I myself took my Sheltie to the cardiologist before putting her down, just to make sure there was nothing else that could be done and to understand what exactly the problem was. Yet, if that happened today, I wouldn't have the money to take my dogs to the specialist. So I understand when people are in a bind. It's just really hard.

[email protected]

I understand your feelings on this topic--it's one of my major concerns about vet med, too. BUT, this is where YOU make the CHOICE about what kind of doctor you will become. You can refuse to euthanize an otherwise healthy animal. A vet that I worked with had this policy, he would not euthanize something that could be fixed. I think euthanasia is a powerful tool in the medical field, and should only be used when all other options are exhausted in order to relieve pain and suffering, or with an animal that is unplaceable due to aggressive behavior. Not because someone doesn't care, the dog doesn't match the furniture, they don't want to have the leg set. There are groups out there (but not enough) who will help out with emerg. vet bills, and take in unwanted pets. If someone wants to "take their business elsewhere" because you won't do a convenience euth.--so be it! BTW--this is a VERY popular question/topic at vet school interviews!

 

[Truth74]

I volunteer at the Humane Society, which many of us do. This particular place is also an arm of the county animal control. The only animals killed there are the too ill or the too vicious to survive.
Some animals stay for months. Others are in one day and out the next.
They just recently adopted out an epileptic boxer, who I hear is doing very well. There are also some blind cocker spaniels that I thought would make it a full year, but found a home together.
I've seen fighting dogs, and the sad thing is, that it's evident in their eyes that they want to do well, they just weren't given the chance to develop normally. So, when they have to be killed, it isn't their fault.
Animals are what we make them to be, not what they are naturally. They can be restored to some amount of what they could have been, but due to domesticity itself, they look to us to set the tone.
As for euthanasia, declawing, and docking, I look at it on a case by case basis. As a scratching post for many a cat, I can say that it stings, but it heals, so... Generally, I feel non-health related modifications aren't necessary.
Now, spaying and neutering, that's a completely different story!
Doing my bit to contribute during my busy schedule!
I know you know what I mean!
Truth

 

[Oats]

I had my cat declawed when she was 5 months old. I rented my apartment and she loved clawing the carpet away from the wall, leaving the carpet in shreds. I tried scratch posts, spray deterrents, squirting her with a water bottle when I saw her doing it, etc. At the time I had it done, I didn't really agree with declawing because their claws are their main source of defense and I hated to think of any animal not being able to defend themselves. But, I knew mine would ALWAYS be a house cat (assuming she never escaped 😱 ). Now, a year and a half later, I would give anything to be able to give her her claws back. I seriously think she misses them! My other cat has hers, and therefore has an advantage when they "fight". She also stretches upwards against a door jam, etc., and tries to scratch her non-existent claws at the same time. She really seems irritated that she can't scratch anymore, and I feel horrible that I took them from her. So, I would have to say that I do not agree with declawing. Once it's done, you can't take it back. 🙁
Second, I want to thank all of you in the vet field for what you do. I am an insane animal lover, so much so that I just couldn't work with sick or hurt animals everyday. I'd cry harder than the owners when I had to euthanize a pet. I watch 'Emergency Vets' occasionally, and cry like a baby everytime. In fact, just yesterday in A/P, we had to intubate, perform needle crichs., give intentional pneumothorax then decompress, on cats. Aside from the smell, having to look at a dead cat all day bothered me. Not to mention when I got home, my girls smelled something they definately didn't like, and refused to have anything to do with me until I took a shower!
Anyway, sorry for the rambling, but just wanted to throw in my opinion. Thanks again all for helping keep our pets safe and healthy. Good luck in school! 🙂 🙂

 

[HeartSong]

I took in an abandoned cat, well she moved in, I didn't actually have a say in the matter. She was completely declawed (front and back paws) and felt sorry for her because she couldn't defend herself (boy was I wrong). At that time I had six dogs two of whom were big and did NOT like cats. But she didn't care, she bullied them until they let her stay. She also could climb trees, catch birds and mice, send any other cat screaming if they got in a fight, and quickly let my dogs know who was boss.
Yet if I had gotten her before she had been declawed, I would not have done it to her. As an animal behaviorist, I do not believe that any cat is impossible to train or any behavior too imbedded to correct. If anything, it's just that we do not understand them well enough to find the right method of correct their behaviors. As a last resort I guess declawing is an option but I think this is something that is more important for an owner to understand than a vet. Even if you refuse to declaw and tell them of training methods, I still don't think that it will change their opinion of why declawing is good or bad. As American I think that we have capabilities in many areas beyond what our understanding of those areas are. Instead of obedience classes for dogs, maybe we should have classes for humans to better understand their pets.

The last vet I worked for operated on a dog to sever his vocal cords because he barked too much. I still highly respect the vet, but I cannot imagine that there wasn't a better solution.

 

[electric]

Any opinion on vaccinations? I've heard from some people that, after the first vaccination, they really aren't needed on an annual basis and can shorten the lifespan of your pet.

Anyone else heard this, or have any articles about it?

 

[cudvm2005]

The thing is there is no good research out there to support the duration of efficacy of vaccines in companion animals. There is also inadequate research to support the incidence of disease caused by "over vaccination" I think it's sort of a hot topic in vet medicine today. I know that many states are adopting a three year policy on rabies vaccines, so long as the animal receives an initial series that is adequate. I think vets really need to be educated in this aspect of medicine, and also be aware and tailor vaccine protocols to individual patients. I don't "push" vaccination on anyone, but I also try and remain scientifically educated at the same time. There are guidelines published by the AAFP regarding cat vaccinations and many vet schools puport their own recommendations for vaccine protocols for pets. Here at Cornell, the protocol changes so often that I literally have a hard time keeping up.

I'm a vet student and I don't vaccinate my cat at all (He received a kitten series and that's it) and I only rabied vaccinate my dog. I just think their personal risk of contracting disease is so low that any risk put forth by vaccination is not worth it. I am aware of the potential risk should my cat bite someone and me not be able to prove he's vaccinated, but I am willing to take the risk because I am too scared about VAS or kidney damage.

 

[electric]

Thanks, cudvm. I had someone mention it to me, along the lines of that's the only way vets in small practice make money. I thought it was interesting, but didn't know much about it.

How's school going? What year are you in? What type of practice are you interested in?