Wright Institute?

[aspiringpsych3384]

Hey guys!

Anyone have any opinions of the wright institute in Berkeley? It looks quite expensive but I am considering applying there so I can live at home while commuting as I a am from the Bay Area

One thing that worried me is the tuition, and also the incoming class is about 60 students, but the apa match rate is pretty good, along with the licensure percentage.

Thanks in advance!

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[Doctor Koala]

Kid, get ready to be flooded by a whole bunch of, “Don’t,” on here.

 

[aspiringpsych3384]

Kid, get ready to be flooded by a whole bunch of, “Don’t,” on here.Hahaha

Hahaha oh, I am ready. Everyone seems to be against PsyD's on here!

 

[Mama Bear]

Hahaha oh, I am ready. Everyone seems to be against PsyD's on here!

The board is against for-profit and unfunded programs, which are disproportionately PsyD programs.

One correction: their APA match rate is terrible per their match statistics.

 

[PsyDuck90]

Hahaha oh, I am ready. Everyone seems to be against PsyD's on here!

It's not so much being against PsyDs. It's more being against having people go into enormous amounts of debt that isn't really justifiable based on psychologists' salaries. Psychologists don't make nearly enough to justify six-figure debt loads. Also, many of these large PsyDs that take tons of students usually have poorer training and less individualized attention. With so many students, it's much easier to fall through the cracks as the faculty cannot possibly provide the sort of close advisement in professional development clinically and in research with that many students to oversee.

I am at a university-based PsyD and I teach an undergrad course every semester in exchange for tuition remission and a stipend, and my entire program across cohorts is less than 1 incoming class of Wright Institute. There are PsyDs that provide funding and smaller cohorts, but they are typically about as competitive as balanced PhD programs.

The Wright Institute also appears to have a captive internship option, which is a way for sub-par programs to game the system because they are unable to competitively match their students to APA-accreddited internships without it.

Have you tried looking for a research coordinator position? They are typically 1-2 year commitments and you get paid while gaining valuable experience that will make you competitive for funded programs.

 

[JustNoticing]

I've met one person from there, who I thought highly of (n=1). Very psychodynamic program. You should absolutely be very very worried about the tuition. More importantly, please use the search function. There are so many threads on this program already.

 

[aspiringpsych3384]

It's not so much being against PsyDs. It's more being against having people go into enormous amounts of debt that isn't really justifiable based on psychologists' salaries. Psychologists don't make nearly enough to justify six-figure debt loads. Also, many of these large PsyDs that take tons of students usually have poorer training and less individualized attention. With so many students, it's much easier to fall through the cracks as the faculty cannot possibly provide the sort of close advisement in professional development clinically and in research with that many students to oversee.

I am at a university-based PsyD and I teach an undergrad course every semester in exchange for tuition remission and a stipend, and my entire program across cohorts is less than 1 incoming class of Wright Institute. There are PsyDs that provide funding and smaller cohorts, but they are typically about as competitive as balanced PhD programs.

The Wright Institute also appears to have a captive internship option, which is a way for sub-par programs to game the system because they are unable to competitively match their students to APA-accreddited internships without it.

Have you tried looking for a research coordinator position? They are typically 1-2 year commitments and you get paid while gaining valuable experience that will make you competitive for funded programs.

Thanks so much for this response, it was very helpful.

May I ask where you attend for your PsyD?

I would love to attend funded programs, I just fear I am not competitive enough. I have a 3.36 undergrad GPA, and only 1 year research experience (I only distributed experiment to students, was not apart of the "harder" stuff)
I do have a good amount of clinical experience, around 2 years, when I lived abroad in Melbourne, Australia.

Do you recommend I take 1-2 years off to strengthen my application?

I just sort of want to get it done as soon as possible so I can begin my life and career, and the funded route seems like it would take wayy longer considering I'd have to take like a year off to really study for the GRE as well. and Phds would take longer than PsyDs as well.

 

[aspiringpsych3384]

I've met one person from there, who I thought highly of (n=1). Very psychodynamic program. You should absolutely be very very worried about the tuition. More importantly, please use the search function. There are so many threads on this program already.

Thank you

 

[aspiringpsych3384]

The board is against for-profit and unfunded programs, which are disproportionately PsyD programs.

One correction: their APA match rate is terrible per their match statistics.

yea very true.. thanks for this

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Search this program on here. Many threads and comments about your questions regarding this program have come up in the past few years.

 

[PsyDuck90]

Thanks so much for this response, it was very helpful.

May I ask where you attend for your PsyD?

I would love to attend funded programs, I just fear I am not competitive enough. I have a 3.36 undergrad GPA, and only 1 year research experience (I only distributed experiment to students, was not apart of the "harder" stuff)
I do have a good amount of clinical experience, around 2 years, when I lived abroad in Melbourne, Australia.

Do you recommend I take 1-2 years off to strengthen my application?

I just sort of want to get it done as soon as possible so I can begin my life and career, and the funded route seems like it would take wayy longer considering I'd have to take like a year off to really study for the GRE as well. and Phds would take longer than PsyDs as well.

It generally takes on average 5-6 years to complete a doctorate (PhD or PsyD). If you get more research experience, you can be competitive for funded positions. What's more important to you? Waiting a year or 2 and getting into a solid program with good training and no debt or a program that will leave you with student loan debt you'll have for decades like an albatross around your neck?

Your GPA isn't the best but it by no means should disqualify you from getting into a funded program. As far as GREs go, many schools have made them optional this year due to the pandemic, and several have already said they are doing away with them for good. Time will tell how many programs will forgo the GREs in the coming years. Focus on getting more research experience, with the possibility of posters and maybe even a publication.

 

[YungPsy]

Thanks so much for this response, it was very helpful.

May I ask where you attend for your PsyD?

I would love to attend funded programs, I just fear I am not competitive enough. I have a 3.36 undergrad GPA, and only 1 year research experience (I only distributed experiment to students, was not apart of the "harder" stuff)
I do have a good amount of clinical experience, around 2 years, when I lived abroad in Melbourne, Australia.

Do you recommend I take 1-2 years off to strengthen my application?

I just sort of want to get it done as soon as possible so I can begin my life and career, and the funded route seems like it would take wayy longer considering I'd have to take like a year off to really study for the GRE as well. and Phds would take longer than PsyDs as well.

I felt this way too - wanting to get it done as soon as possible and almost applied during my senior year (from a great school with a couple years of research experience but not too much depth/focus). Yet, I heeded the advice here and elsewhere and spent 2 years as a research coordinator and then landed at my top PhD program that was fully funded. I cannot express to you how great it feels not to graduate with debt, particularly with the added stress of graduate school over the past 5 years. I'm now in the middle of applying to internship and have interviews at basically every peds site within AMCs I applied to (which I worried were mostly all too competitive). I highly recommend taking 1-2 years off to work as a research coordinator as it will help you with preparation for grad school, focusing your interests and way up your chances for obtaining a fully funded position.

 

[Indiana_Jane]

I felt this way too - wanting to get it done as soon as possible and almost applied during my senior year (from a great school with a couple years of research experience but not too much depth/focus). Yet, I heeded the advice here and elsewhere and spent 2 years as a research coordinator and then landed at my top PhD program that was fully funded. I cannot express to you how great it feels not to graduate with debt, particularly with the added stress of graduate school over the past 5 years. I'm now in the middle of applying to internship and have interviews at basically every peds site within AMCs I applied to (which I worried were mostly all too competitive). I highly recommend taking 1-2 years off to work as a research coordinator as it will help you with preparation for grad school, focusing your interests and way up your chances for obtaining a fully funded position.

Similar story. I applied to an unfunded PsyD program, they took my application money then told me they were closing the day after I submitted me app. Took two years off, and was accepted to multiple, fully-funded PhD programs (stipend + fellowship). I’m currently applying for internship and I am so thankful I waited.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Kid, get ready to be flooded by a whole bunch of, “Don’t,” on here.

Is there something wrong with me that I read your post (in my mind) with the voice of Indiana Jones?

 

[Ollie123]

I can understand wanting to get done and "start life" sooner but would really urge you to redefine how you think about this.

Person A goes straight into a PsyD program, needs to take out roughly 200k in loans just to cover tuition plus possibly more for living expenses or live with their parents. They struggle to find an internship and have to go APPIC, move away to a large city and still have limited funding so take on more debt before graduating at 27. They're done with school but since they went APPIC they find there aren't many serious sites willing to hire them. They take a post doc in a private practice for 25k for a year and then land a job at a CMHC (because they need health insurance and don't have easy access in PP) that pays 65k a year. They are paying > $1000/month (possibly much, much more) in student loans for many, many years. Forget a mortgage, they need their parents to co-sign apartment leases with them into their 40s.

Person B takes 2 years off, works as a coordinator and pays all their own bills. Has a good time, learns some stuff and gets into a funded program after. It is a bit of a cut from the coordinator life, but maybe their parents still help them a bit (cheaper than having them live at home!) and they can make ends meet. Their route is much smoother, they are done at 30 with an APA internship that keeps them on as a post-docs at 45k/yr for 1 year. After that they become an attending at 90k and have zero debt. They have better science and education training so even have some opportunities for side income and to pivot a bit to help grow their income throughout life.

I obviously made these up but I think most here would agree these are pretty realistic scenarios. There are no guarantees. You could fail out of PhD program or launch the world's most successful PP straight out of a PsyD program and make bank. These are realistic outcomes, not extreme ones. Which one sounds like they get to start life sooner? A couple years delay in graduating is nothing.

 

[psych.meout]

It's not so much being against PsyDs. It's more being against having people go into enormous amounts of debt that isn't really justifiable based on psychologists' salaries. Psychologists don't make nearly enough to justify six-figure debt loads. Also, many of these large PsyDs that take tons of students usually have poorer training and less individualized attention. With so many students, it's much easier to fall through the cracks as the faculty cannot possibly provide the sort of close advisement in professional development clinically and in research with that many students to oversee.

I am at a university-based PsyD and I teach an undergrad course every semester in exchange for tuition remission and a stipend, and my entire program across cohorts is less than 1 incoming class of Wright Institute. There are PsyDs that provide funding and smaller cohorts, but they are typically about as competitive as balanced PhD programs.

The Wright Institute also appears to have a captive internship option, which is a way for sub-par programs to game the system because they are unable to competitively match their students to APA-accreddited internships without it.

Have you tried looking for a research coordinator position? They are typically 1-2 year commitments and you get paid while gaining valuable experience that will make you competitive for funded programs.

This is one of the most important parts.

Clinical Program Student Admissions, Outcomes, and Other Data

The Wright Institute Graduate School of Psychology

Founded in 1968 by the distinguished psychologist Nevitt Sanford, The Wright Institute is a graduate school of psychology in Berkeley, California.

www.wi.edu

Wright Institute Internships​

Working closely with our internal placements and affiliated training agencies, the Wright Institute also provides internship training. Currently, we offer 16 internship placement slots, and we are well along in our efforts to expand that number to 20-22, advancing the Wright Institute's match rate and maintaining our commitment to the highest quality training experiences.

Look at the huge jump in their match rate from 2014-2015 to 2015-2016, that's likely when they instituted the captive internship. This is a perfect example of how programs use these captive sites to game the match statistics instead of making programmatic changes that would tangibly improve the quality of their training and students to actually make them more competitive for internship. This kind of behavior should drive any discerning applicant away, because it shows that they don't really care about you or the quality of your training, but rather just the appearance of quality and that you're paying them exorbitant tuition and fees.

 

[Temperance]

I just sort of want to get it done as soon as possible so I can begin my life and career, and the funded route seems like it would take wayy longer considering I'd have to take like a year off to really study for the GRE as well. and Phds would take longer than PsyDs as well.

Ph.D. programs can take longer, but that comes with benefits. You have far more opportunities to seek research and clinical training experiences over the course of 5-7 years that can prepare you to be a more well-rounded psychologist than if you were to try to rush through training in a four-year Psy.D. program.

As @Ollie123 pointed out, taking on $200k+ of debt to attend an unfunded program can set you very far behind. Becoming a psychologist at 26 but not being able to afford anything because of crippling student loan payments (for more on that, read this thread) would mean being forced to delay life milestones anyway because you might not be able to afford living without roommates, having a car, or even having children (if that's what you want to do). Waiting a few years might mean you become a psychologist at 30 instead, but (a) you'll be far more prepared for your eventual career and (b) you can afford choices.

Is there a reason that you're trying to stick close to home? California as a state is already an overly saturated market for mental health professionals, and that's especially true of the Bay Area.

 

[aspiringpsych3384]

It generally takes on average 5-6 years to complete a doctorate (PhD or PsyD). If you get more research experience, you can be competitive for funded positions. What's more important to you? Waiting a year or 2 and getting into a solid program with good training and no debt or a program that will leave you with student loan debt you'll have for decades like an albatross around your neck?

Your GPA isn't the best but it by no means should disqualify you from getting into a funded program. As far as GREs go, many schools have made them optional this year due to the pandemic, and several have already said they are doing away with them for good. Time will tell how many programs will forgo the GREs in the coming years. Focus on getting more research experience, with the possibility of posters and maybe even a publication.

Very very true...
and yes I did see many schools made them optional this year, but I just think it is too last minute to apply now as I only just thought of this idea! It seems too rushed.

If I get more research experiences and pubs, do you think I'd have a good chance even considering my low gpa? Thank u again

 

[aspiringpsych3384]

I felt this way too - wanting to get it done as soon as possible and almost applied during my senior year (from a great school with a couple years of research experience but not too much depth/focus). Yet, I heeded the advice here and elsewhere and spent 2 years as a research coordinator and then landed at my top PhD program that was fully funded. I cannot express to you how great it feels not to graduate with debt, particularly with the added stress of graduate school over the past 5 years. I'm now in the middle of applying to internship and have interviews at basically every peds site within AMCs I applied to (which I worried were mostly all too competitive). I highly recommend taking 1-2 years off to work as a research coordinator as it will help you with preparation for grad school, focusing your interests and way up your chances for obtaining a fully funded position.

Wow, that is amazing! Congratulations, you must be so proud! That must have been such a great feeling.

What was your undergrad GPA? mine is only a 3.36...which is one of the reasons I don't think I will get in to a phd program.

Thank you for your comment

 

[aspiringpsych3384]

I can understand wanting to get done and "start life" sooner but would really urge you to redefine how you think about this.

Person A goes straight into a PsyD program, needs to take out roughly 200k in loans just to cover tuition plus possibly more for living expenses or live with their parents. They struggle to find an internship and have to go APPIC, move away to a large city and still have limited funding so take on more debt before graduating at 27. They're done with school but since they went APPIC they find there aren't many serious sites willing to hire them. They take a post doc in a private practice for 25k for a year and then land a job at a CMHC (because they need health insurance and don't have easy access in PP) that pays 65k a year. They are paying > $1000/month (possibly much, much more) in student loans for many, many years. Forget a mortgage, they need their parents to co-sign apartment leases with them into their 40s.

Person B takes 2 years off, works as a coordinator and pays all their own bills. Has a good time, learns some stuff and gets into a funded program after. It is a bit of a cut from the coordinator life, but maybe their parents still help them a bit (cheaper than having them live at home!) and they can make ends meet. Their route is much smoother, they are done at 30 with an APA internship that keeps them on as a post-docs at 45k/yr for 1 year. After that they become an attending at 90k and have zero debt. They have better science and education training so even have some opportunities for side income and to pivot a bit to help grow their income throughout life.

I obviously made these up but I think most here would agree these are pretty realistic scenarios. There are no guarantees. You could fail out of PhD program or launch the world's most successful PP straight out of a PsyD program and make bank. These are realistic outcomes, not extreme ones. Which one sounds like they get to start life sooner? A couple years delay in graduating is nothing.

Thanks for this thoughtful response!

You make very good points.

But I am actually 27, so that is another reason I am reluctant to take more time off before starting my career. If I take 1-2 years off to strengthen my application, by the time I finish my PhD I will be 36! (biological click ticking)

 

[aspiringpsych3384]

Ph.D. programs can take longer, but that comes with benefits. You have far more opportunities to seek research and clinical training experiences over the course of 5-7 years that can prepare you to be a more well-rounded psychologist than if you were to try to rush through training in a four-year Psy.D. program.

As @Ollie123 pointed out, taking on $200k+ of debt to attend an unfunded program can set you very far behind. Becoming a psychologist at 26 but not being able to afford anything because of crippling student loan payments (for more on that, read this thread) would mean being forced to delay life milestones anyway because you might not be able to afford living without roommates, having a car, or even having children (if that's what you want to do). Waiting a few years might mean you become a psychologist at 30 instead, but (a) you'll be far more prepared for your eventual career and (b) you can afford choices.

Is there a reason that you're trying to stick close to home? California as a state is already an overly saturated market for mental health professionals, and that's especially true of the Bay Area.

This is very true. Thank you.

And because my family is here, and my really good friends. I have just moved back from Australia though, so maybe I am currently feeling like I want to stay here cause it's novel atm lol.

 

[mypointlesspov]

Thanks for this thoughtful response!

You make very good points.

But I am actually 27, so that is another reason I am reluctant to take more time off before starting my career. If I take 1-2 years off to strengthen my application, by the time I finish my PhD I will be 36! (biological click ticking)

You can have a family and kids while you're in grad school. Lots of people in my grad school and internship cohorts did. Many fellow postdocs I know are in their mid-30s. Would you rather be 36 with a degree and little to no debt or 32 with a degree and $150,000+ in loans? You mention your "biological clock ticking," but consider that buying a house for the family you seem to want would be impossible with that debt load. A large chunk of your income would go toward loans.

 

[Ollie123]

But I am actually 27, so that is another reason I am reluctant to take more time off before starting my career. If I take 1-2 years off to strengthen my application, by the time I finish my PhD I will be 36! (biological click ticking)

OK, so make that "having parents co-sign your apartment lease until you are 50" - sound any better? I actually think being older is MORE of a reason to go with a less expensive program. You'll have much less time to make up the financial loss. Accruing a ton of student debt later in life is not a great retirement planning strategy. It is a bad enough idea at 18. It is a downright terrible idea at 40 when friends might be starting to retire around the time you are still crawling towards the "net worth that isn't negative" starting line.

Depending on your goals, I actually think a good alternative for you could be to go for a clinical master's in a respectable program with research opportunities. These often include some tuition remission component, but even if not they will cost a fraction of the PsyD. Let's you move towards the goal, gives you an opportunity to boost up the GPA and get more research experience. If you decide you are content, you can stop there and start your career. If you still want more, you are much better positioned to enter a program that won't leave you with crippling debt and questionable credentials.

 

[summerbabe]

But I am actually 27, so that is another reason I am reluctant to take more time off before starting my career. If I take 1-2 years off to strengthen my application, by the time I finish my PhD I will be 36! (biological click ticking)

After taxes, FICA, 5% retirement match contributions, health insurance, etc, I take home 62.6% of each pay check. It'll likely be higher for you if you remain in California due to CA state income tax.

So if you end up with $150,000 in student loans and want to finish paying it off in 10 years, you'll likely be looking at $1500/month or more in repayment, which will have a big impact on your housing/lifestyle options, ability to save for an eventual down payment, ability to be approved for a mortgage with good rates due to a high debt to income ratio, ability to save for retirement, major one time expenses like car repairs, etc etc etc. Or if you end up only being able to pay in the hundreds of dollars/month, you'll be lucky to have paid off all your loans by retirement age.

For the sake of math simplicity, let's say you gross $100,000/year post-licensure and pocket roughly $60,000/year after taxes/deductions. If you want to be debt free in 10 years and choose an aggressive repayment plan, you might end up with only $40,000 net yearly ($3333 monthly) for all of your other expenses for a decade while working in a stressful profession.

And since many people are not going to be able to repay their loans this aggressively, you could be looking at paying $700-900/month for 20+ years.

Is all of this doable? Sure. But just know that this path forward is likely going to be waaaaaaaaaaaay more stressful than whatever you can anticipate right now.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

I think I've asked this before, but I'm not sure the debt precludes you from home ownership? Most i know who have scary debt (one whom i dated and thankfully got out lol) still went and procured home loans. They've gotta be doing income contingent though. Can't see any other way.

 

[Ollie123]

Probably depends how your loans/paymentd are structured. I'm definitely making light of it a bit - no you probably won't actually need your parents co-signing the lease on a studio apartment That said, you will be struggling financially....potentially for a very long time. You might not qualify for that mortgage and even if you do....savings for that down payment is going to be absolutely brutal.

That said, it absolutely would impact how you qualify for a loan and could (drastically) reduce the amount of mortgage you could responsibly take on. Especially in higher COL areas, I feel like it is tough enough to make home ownership work I cannot fathom doing so with a massive student loan bill too.

 

[R. Matey]

am actually 27, so that is another reason I am reluctant to take more time off before starting my career. If I take 1-2 years off to strengthen my application, by the time I finish my PhD I will be 36! (biological click ticking)

I was 30 when I entered my Ph.D. program after declining admissions to unfunded Psy.D. programs the year prior. My partner and I had a child in graduate school. A few others in my year did so as well. The faculty were very supportive and worked with me to make sure I graduated on time. There were a few opportunities that I wasn't as able to take advantage of because I was a parent to a newborn and my partner was working full time, but I have no regrets. If you want details about what it's like to be a parent in grad school, feel free to PM me.

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

You can find helpful information about the program from earlier posts. Regarding your concern about tuition, borrowing federal loans can be doable, although depends on many factors (i.g., having significant savings, other financial investments, flexibility and/or ability to work part-time while in school, highly disciplined and willing to live a financially restricted life for a long time...). There are consequences down the road as others stated. Do your best not to take any plus loans for living expenses. It has a higher interest rate. I took out a total of $125,767.00 loan for tuition. I lived off my savings and also worked two part-time jobs during my final year. I made small payments when I got paid a bonus or worked an extra shift. Here is what a 10-year graduated repayment plan looks like (there are other repayment plans that might require lower monthly payment; however, the longer the repayment term, the greater amount of accumulated interest to be repaid over time):

 

[YoungFrancis]

3.36 gpa is not too low for funded programs. I had a lower gpa and got into fully funded PhDs. You can make up for your gpa with experience, research productivity, a master's, or GREs.

Don't rush this. When you're ready, apply widely.

 

[ClinicalABA]

You can find helpful information about the program from earlier posts. Regarding your concern about tuition, borrowing federal loans can be doable. There are consequences down the road as others stated. Do your best not to take any plus loans for living expenses. It has a higher interest rate. I took out a total of $125,767.00 loan for tuition. I lived off my savings and also worked two part-time jobs during my final year. I made small payments when I got paid a bonus or worked an extra shift. Here is what the payment plan looks like:

View attachment 324038

View attachment 324037

Look REAL hard at what these numbers mean! They are very large numbers, indeed! Let's say that 10 years from now you are making 100k per year. After taxes and benefits, your bimonthly take home pay will be around $2400. You will need more than one of your 2 paychecks per month JUST TO COVER YOUR STUDENT LOAN PAYMENT!!!! That is a crazy, crippling, ridiculously huge monthly loan payment (and may not include undergrad debt). I have a higher salary than that, and a spouse with good income, and that monthly payment amount would still be crippling (it's more than my monthly mortgage payment). Please please please do not look at these numbers as "doable." They are insanely high and life altering (in a bad way) for almost all practicing psychologists!

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

Look REAL hard at what these numbers mean! They are very large numbers, indeed! Let's say that 10 years from now you are making 100k per year. After taxes and benefits, your bimonthly take home pay will be around $2400. You will need more than one of your 2 paychecks per month JUST TO COVER YOUR STUDENT LOAN PAYMENT!!!! That is a crazy, crippling, ridiculously huge monthly loan payment (and may not include undergrad debt). I have a higher salary than that, and a spouse with good income, and that monthly payment amount would still be crippling (it's more than my monthly mortgage payment). Please please please do not look at these numbers as "doable." They are insanely high and life altering (in a bad way) for almost all practicing psychologists!

Luckily, I don't have any previous loans. I didn't go back to school until I was in my late 20's and made cash payments every semester while working full-time to support myself through my undergraduate and then a couple of master's programs. I am living a financially restricted life that is not so different than 10 years ago and I understand that things are going to be tight for a while.

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

Everyone has a unique story and different reasons for wanting to be a psychologist.
"To be informed is to be empowered." This might be a helpful post to read about student loan:

A PsyD story (mostly $$$ talk)

OK, I know this is a long post, but if you’re considering pursuing an unfunded PsyD, you may want to read this because detailed first-person accounts of PsyD debt are rare. I know that my case is not representative, but I want to talk about money because very few of my peers/colleagues do/did...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[psych.meout]

Everyone has a unique story and different reasons for wanting to be a psychologist.
"To be informed is to be empowered." This might be a helpful post to read about student loan:

A PsyD story (mostly $$$ talk)

OK, I know this is a long post, but if you’re considering pursuing an unfunded PsyD, you may want to read this because detailed first-person accounts of PsyD debt are rare. I know that my case is not representative, but I want to talk about money because very few of my peers/colleagues do/did...

forums.studentdoctor.net

I get that being a psychologist (or just being a "dr.") can be someone's dream and everyone has a unique story, but that doesn't mean any path to becoming a psychologist is a valid (e.g., online and/or unaccredited programs) or financially wise one (e.g., unfunded). If someone's only (perceived) option is $200,000 debt with the typical earnings for a psychologist, I would recommend they get a licensable master's degree instead. Sometimes a dream should stay a dream if it results in more hardship than another path.

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

I get that being a psychologist (or just being a "dr.") can be someone's dream and everyone has a unique story, but that doesn't mean any path to becoming a psychologist is a valid (e.g., online and/or unaccredited programs) or financially wise one (e.g., unfunded). If someone's only (perceived) option is $200,000 debt with the typical earnings for a psychologist, I would recommend they get a licensable master's degree instead. Sometimes a dream should stay a dream if it results in more hardship than another path.

Let's stay on track with what tdkarma's was asking and humbly consulting here. This is not a conversation about what is right or what is wrong. This is a supportive platform to inform a fellow and potentially a future colleague to make the best decision based on the individual situation and resources.

 

[ClinicalABA]

... This is a supportive platform to inform a fellow and optionally a future colleague to make the best decision based on the individual situation and resources.

That is exactly what we are doing. If the OP's decision to attend ANY program results in $1000-$2500 monthly student loan payments, it is very likely a really bad choice (and OP did question the costs, so these discussions are directly relevant to their post). Add in legitimate concerns about Wright cohort sizes, match rates, and attrition, and it is a potentially even worse decision. Reasons for wanting to be a psychologist are of no concern to debt collectors, mortgage brokers, etc. Spending MORE THAN HALF your take home pay from a 100k job on student loan payment is a lot more than belt tightening.

 

[erg923]

This is not a conversation about what is right or what is wrong,

yes it is.

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

yes it is.

ehh

 

[WisNeuro]

I dunno, I'm starting to see the advantages of high debt load. Looking at the numbers and contemplating starting a group practice where I take care of the logistics. Much easier to get people to accept a 50% cut of collections when they feel like they don't have many other choices. Seems like a win/win. Well, at least for me.

 

[psych.meout]

Let's stay on track with what tdkarma's was asking and humbly consulting here. This is not a conversation about what is right or what is wrong. This is a supportive platform to inform a fellow and potentially a future colleague to make the best decision based on the individual situation and resources.

Actually, OP did specifically say they are worried by the tuition:

Hey guys!

Anyone have any opinions of the wright institute in Berkeley? It looks quite expensive but I am considering applying there so I can live at home while commuting as I a am from the Bay Area

One thing that worried me is the tuition, and also the incoming class is about 60 students, but the apa match rate is pretty good, along with the licensure percentage.

Thanks in advance!

Thus, discussing the soundness of taking on that level of debt vs. one's "dreams" is germane to this discussion.

Moreover, this is the problem that gets so many people into these predicaments of being into debt up to their eyeballs but without a career and remuneration commensurate with that level of debt. People are so reticent to question the basic premises of these arguments for prospective grad students that it ends up limiting the discussion. They don't want to be seen as being judgmental or questioning a person's career plans that the parameters of the discussion are limited to which unfunded program is best or how to work during one's program to limit the debt or how best to manage the debt after graduation. If you don't question the fundamental premises (e.g., why they need a doctorate, why can't they apply more broadly, why can't they take time off to boost their resume to be more competitive for funded programs) you're hamstringing the effectiveness of the discussion and advice.

I dunno, I'm starting to see the advantages of high debt load. Looking at the numbers and contemplating starting a group practice where I take care of the logistics. Much easier to get people to accept a 50% cut of collections when they feel like they don't have many other choices. Seems like a win/win. Well, at least for me.

This is why the argument from students in unfunded or unaccredited programs (or applicants aspiring to those programs) is so fundamentally flawed. They try to deflect from the arguments that these programs limit their career options by saying that they just want to go into private practice, but they don't realize or are ignoring that there are plenty of unscrupulous practice owners who want to hire them, because the owners know they will have the upper hand with their employees, who have limited options to go elsewhere if they don't like the split, working conditions, productivity expectations, etc.

 

[WisNeuro]

This is why the argument from students in unfunded or unaccredited programs (or applicants aspiring to those programs) is so fundamentally flawed. They try to deflect from the arguments that these programs limit their career options by saying that they just want to go into private practice, but they don't realize or are ignoring that there are plenty of unscrupulous practice owners who want to hire them, because the owners know they will have the upper hand with their employees, who have limited options to go elsewhere if they don't like the split, working conditions, productivity expectations, etc.

The thing is, it isn't necessarily unscrupulous. 50/50 split is common in some areas. And it's that way for a reason. There are plenty of people who will accept that. It's simply a market force at that point. As a practice owner, why would I offer more if I can have 10 applicants who will accept that for every 1 that won't? The practice owner didn't force that employee to take on 6 figure debt, the applicant chose that. In most metros, there are a surplus of providers, little reason to incentivize the hiring as long as they meet some low benchmark of mediocrity.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Decisions to go to this or similar programs that offer poorer training and make you take on that debt are:

1) Probably bad for the individual (whether they have accepted this or not)

2) Almost certainly bad for our profession

3) Usually bad for patients and society. Although I am open to the idea that in some geographical areas or sub-fields, having a mental health care provider (even a poorer quality one that is stressed about finances for a decade +) is more helpful for people who could not otherwise access care at all.

 

[psych.meout]

The thing is, it isn't necessarily unscrupulous. 50/50 split is common in some areas. And it's that way for a reason. There are plenty of people who will accept that. It's simply a market force at that point. As a practice owner, why would I offer more if I can have 10 applicants who will accept that for every 1 that won't? The practice owner didn't force that employee to take on 6 figure debt, the applicant chose that. In most metros, there are a surplus of providers, little reason to incentivize the hiring as long as they meet some low benchmark of mediocrity.

I'm not saying 50/50 alone is necessarily unscrupulous, but rather in combination with other practices (e.g., poor support for that level of split, high productivity expectations).

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm not saying 50/50 alone is necessarily unscrupulous, but rather in combination with other practices (e.g., poor support for that level of split, high productivity expectations).

High productivity expectations aren't that bad. As with other issues, if you don't like it, you are welcome to try elsewhere. At some point as a practice owner, you may care about your reputation. But, I'd say the largest PP group in town cares very little for their reputation. They have no problem filling their practice with diploma millers. They do have a problem finding board certified neuropsychs, though. But that may be because we know we can net twice what they offer easy on our own.

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

Hey guys!

Anyone have any opinions of the wright institute in Berkeley? It looks quite expensive but I am considering applying there so I can live at home while commuting as I a am from the Bay Area

One thing that worried me is the tuition, and also the incoming class is about 60 students, but the apa match rate is pretty good, along with the licensure percentage.

Thanks in advance!

I have met both poorly trained and well-trained clinicians from the Wright Institute. Cannot tell if either group is representative of the quality of the program or it is a reflection of the individuals being selected into the program. Reasonably, perhaps both. It is a psychodynamic emphasized program. Is that your theory orientation or orientation of your desire? Have you looked into other programs in the bay area? APA matching is highly competitive in the bay area due to the limited number of APA accredited sites and a disproportionately large number of applicants every year. Many students have to move out of state for APA accredited internships or choose to stay locally with non-APA-accredited sites. The latter will limit your career choices.

 

[Mama Bear]

Ethics argument: Don’t put yourself in a situation in which you are financially desperate - not just the reasons stated above, but it can cloud your ability to act ethically. Nothing bugs me like providers who are so hard up for cash that they shill MLM essential oil nonsense. If you are desperate for cash, how much more difficult will it be to refer out or terminate clients when appropriate? How will you respond when a client wants to end therapy?

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Nothing bugs me like providers who are so hard up for cash that they shill MLM essential oil nonsense.

There are several masters level provider 'friends' doing this on my social media feeds and it is so cringe-worthy. Could you imagine if they had another 80k in debt for the additional 3-5 years of training. oh man what they would be doing.

Edit: not essential oils but for beauty products and health supplements.

 

[WisNeuro]

It's all about the "evaluations" to get ESA letters here.

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

Ethics argument: Don’t put yourself in a situation in which you are financially desperate - not just the reasons stated above, but it can cloud your ability to act ethically. Nothing bugs me like providers who are so hard up for cash that they shill MLM essential oil nonsense. If you are desperate for cash, how much more difficult will it be to refer out or terminate clients when appropriate? How will you respond when a client wants to end therapy?

You make a great point.

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

Individuals who do well from non funded APA accredited PsyD or PhD programs share some common characteristics, including but may not be limited to having significant savings with reserved emergency funds, strong social support and social network, previous work experience in healthcare, mental health, or human services, strong theory foundation from previous academic training, dedication and commitment to this filed, interest in and ability to do research... Some folks are already licensed or certified at a master level, therefore, can work part-time and get paid a decent hourly rate while in school to minimize debts. Some individuals were psychotherapists or psychologists from foreign countries who would need an American degree to be licensed; however, they were not competitive enough to get into funded programs. These people tend to be older than the traditional students and have planed well what to do upon graduation after years of preparation before getting into the program. This is not to generalize what all graduates from non funded programs are like. Nonetheless, some struggle from the first day to the end while others don't make it to the finishing line. It is not a glamorous journey. Mental health is a demanding field and graduate school is a marathon. Think it through and take all the information presented here sincerely to make a wise decision for the long run.

 

[psych.meout]

Ethics argument: Don’t put yourself in a situation in which you are financially desperate - not just the reasons stated above, but it can cloud your ability to act ethically. Nothing bugs me like providers who are so hard up for cash that they shill MLM essential oil nonsense. If you are desperate for cash, how much more difficult will it be to refer out or terminate clients when appropriate? How will you respond when a client wants to end therapy?

Not to derail too much, but there was a thread on /r/psychotherapy from a while back from a master's level provider who was having trouble keeping a sufficient caseload and balancing patient scheduling. They were lamenting that some patients wanted to reduce session frequency, from weekly to biweekly, which would be bringing in less money and make it difficult for them to find other patients to do biweekly sessions in the same timeslots on the off weeks. The biweekly patients may also be occupying spaces that might be good for a weekly patients, which would bring them in money more consistently.

Someone else, who was supposedly also a provider of some kind, advised them that they should tell their patients that they couldn't do biweekly sessions and give them an ultimatum to continue doing weekly sessions or they would have to discontinue treatment and find a new provider. Other posters balked at this, so this person countered that they have debt and need to make a living, and the patients wanting to change session frequency were threatening their financial viability. Thus, it was actually the ethical thing to give patients this ultimatum, as they might have to close their practice and leave their remaining patients without a provider if they didn't do it.

Individuals who do well from non funded APA accredited PsyD or PhD programs share some common characteristics, including but may not be limited to having significant savings with reserved emergency funds, strong social support and social network, previous work experience in healthcare, mental health, or human services, strong theory foundation from previous academic training, dedication and commitment to this filed, interest in and ability to do research... Some folks are already licensed or certified at a master level, therefore, can work part-time and get paid a decent hourly rate while in school to minimize debts. Some individuals were psychotherapists or psychologists from foreign countries who would need an American degree to be licensed; however, they were not competitive enough to get into funded programs. These people tend to be older than the traditional students and have planed well what to do upon graduation after years of preparation before getting into the program. This is not to generalize what all graduates from non funded programs are like. Nonetheless, some struggle from the first day to the end while others don't make it to the finishing line. It is not a glamorous journey. Mental health is a demanding field and graduate school is a marathon. Think it through and take all the information presented here sincerely to make a wise decision for the long run.

Gonna need some citations here.

More importantly, that someone is not competitive enough to get into a funded program or that traditional programs don't fit into their life circumstances aren't good arguments in favor of these unfunded programs, especially the ones that are demonstrably low quality (e.g., large cohort; poor match EPPP pass, licensure rates). Why should we compromise on the quality of training because someone doesn't want to conform to the standards, sacrifices, etc. of the field? Aren't these the same arguments used by Caribbean med schools? If you look at the medical field, DO programs are progressively changing to be more like MD programs, not less.