ziggyandjazzy

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I wanted to save it in case Mel got killed again. Also, you kept trying to mislynch me and that's kinda against my win con.
You're ridiculous. Have you even looked at your own trackers or saw what Nav said? I consistently voted for SAR and Stagg the few days I was alive. I voted for you ONCE in an attempt to get the vote off who I knew was the role name seer. I literally knew you were the person who decided the PROTECTOR wasn't worth a Rez lmao

from my PM lol
remind me to throat punch said person when I find out who it is

it's probably AM and she just hated me enough not to do it :cryi:

COOOOOOL
I will not throat punch you lol but I am going to be very very very salty about this. and how I called it hahahaha
 
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Coopah

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You're ridiculous. Have you even looked at your own trackers or saw what Nav said? I consistently voted for SAR and Stagg the few days I was alive. I voted for you ONCE in an attempt to get the vote off who I knew was the role name seer. I literally knew you were the person who decided the PROTECTOR wasn't worth a Rez lmao

from my PM lol

I will not throat punch you lol but I am going to be very very very salty about this. and how I called it hahahaha
Welcome to WW
 
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Animal Midwife

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You're ridiculous. Have you even looked at your own trackers or saw what Nav said? I consistently voted for SAR and Stagg the few days I was alive. I voted for you ONCE in an attempt to get the vote off who I knew was the role name seer. I literally knew you were the person who decided the PROTECTOR wasn't worth a Rez lmao

from my PM lol

I will not throat punch you lol but I am going to be very very very salty about this. and how I called it hahahaha
Yeah, I don't do either/or especially not on myself. Posts are also important along VCA. Regardless, it was for if Mel died again.
 
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Navilly

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Wondering on peoples thoughts on narrative games vs. involved write up non-narrative games (similar effort in write ups, usually a bit less writing, but no cohesive story). Did you care about the story/enjoy story? Did you connect with the story/your character within the story? Narrative takes a lot of effort, so I am wondering what people takes are on it in general?
 

WildZoo

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Wondering on peoples thoughts on narrative games vs. involved write up non-narrative games (similar effort in write ups, usually a bit less writing, but no cohesive story). Did you care about the story/enjoy story? Did you connect with the story/your character within the story? Narrative takes a lot of effort, so I am wondering what people takes are on it in general?
I felt my character was grossly underrepresented :p

Anyway I love games with a story. There are a lot of pitfalls with that kind of thing and I feel like they were decently well, if not completely, avoided here. Being able to keep the theme mostly hidden helped.
 
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PippyPony

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Wondering on peoples thoughts on narrative games vs. involved write up non-narrative games (similar effort in write ups, usually a bit less writing, but no cohesive story). Did you care about the story/enjoy story? Did you connect with the story/your character within the story? Narrative takes a lot of effort, so I am wondering what people takes are on it in general?
... Ok if I give you my full thoughts on this offline? I thought the amount of effort and attention to detail was remarkable, but as you can probably imagine, I have thoughts about giving players that level of information in write ups, as well as restricting theme discussions, which were helpful enough to players to drive people to circumvent rules.

That being said, the degree of balance is always something that I'm incredibly impressed with and this was no exception to that
 
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PippyPony

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CoffeeQuestionMark

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Wondering on peoples thoughts on narrative games vs. involved write up non-narrative games (similar effort in write ups, usually a bit less writing, but no cohesive story). Did you care about the story/enjoy story? Did you connect with the story/your character within the story? Narrative takes a lot of effort, so I am wondering what people takes are on it in general?
I like puzzles so I did enjoy picking out the hints in the story. However unfortunately that was only so helpful because about half of the players it seemed treated it as a regular game, and didn't take into account storyline mechanics.

Anyways, I would say it kept me more invested for that reason. However, it was REALLY long, and think for playing something like that, would've been nice to have like more return on investment..?

Not really sure how to put that. But like, we spent a week or so reading and figuring out the story, using it to chase down the antagonists, found them all pretty quickly, felt really good about that but in the end it didn't seem to matter because their affiliations all changed once capri was dead. In this way, it was like being really invested and then that investment feels wasted.

Definitely applaud the effort you in as it was very unique, a great game, totally worth playing.
 
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Navilly

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I like puzzles so I did enjoy picking out the hints in the story. However unfortunately that was only so helpful because about half of the players it seemed treated it as a regular game, and didn't take into account storyline mechanics.

Anyways, I would say it kept me more invested for that reason. However, it was REALLY long, and think for playing something like that, would've been nice to have like more return on investment..?

Not really sure how to put that. But like, we spent a week or so reading and figuring out the story, using it to chase down the antagonists, found them all pretty quickly, felt really good about that but in the end it didn't seem to matter because their affiliations all changed once capri was dead. In this way, it was like being really invested and then that investment feels wasted.

Definitely applaud the effort you in as it was very unique, a great game, totally worth playing.
So you would like narrative more if there were less character arcs (less redemption arcs)?
 

ziggyandjazzy

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Wondering on peoples thoughts on narrative games vs. involved write up non-narrative games (similar effort in write ups, usually a bit less writing, but no cohesive story). Did you care about the story/enjoy story? Did you connect with the story/your character within the story? Narrative takes a lot of effort, so I am wondering what people takes are on it in general?
I don't really think that the write-ups "gave too much away". There was no affiliation seer. because coffee was the role name seer, I think the write ups were somewhat helpful in her being able to use her ability ~sometimes~ as that of an affiliation seer.

I liked the story but had some qualms with it. I don't like that some people were allowed privileged info about it and some weren't (by this, I mean 3 people were told the theme). I think it should be all or none for fairness purposes.

Additionally, I think I would be really interested in a story game that didn't follow a specific theme (ie the mod made the story completely based on the actions of characters, etc). Because like dubs said, I think I was underrepresented ;) And giving people certain roles here kinda made it seem like they were a lot more important (which they probably are in the video game) then others, which doesnt make me feel super warm and cuddly if that makes sense lol. And because these characters were often impossible/very hard to kill, it made a lot of villagers pretty frustrated pretty quickly. So I think instead of having us try to fit a story, I think it would be fun to have the story come from us, if that makes sense?

Oh, and more death :D:ninja:
and double oh, no bad people in dead chat :nono:
 
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Coopah

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I loved the story (even if I wasn't in it much) the only problem was I felt like a lot of what the village did didn't reflect on the outcomes because they were just immune so we couldn't figure out how to kill people
 

WildZoo

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So you would like narrative more if there were less character arcs (less redemption arcs)?
For me personally it's hard to wrap my head around that kind of thing in the context of a WW game. That in particular I do agree very strongly with Coffee about. The shifting goal posts were frustrating, and so I basically just ignored them lol
 

CoffeeQuestionMark

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So you would like narrative more if there were less character arcs (less redemption arcs)?
Yeah; the entertainment value is high, and I do like that things become less random/more solvable. In the random games it is relied more on player meta which creates a disadvantage for newer players or those not in the same cliques if you would.
 

PippyPony

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I don't really think that the write-ups "gave too much away". There was no affiliation seer. because coffee was the role name seer, I think the write ups were somewhat helpful in her being able to use her ability ~sometimes~ as that of an affiliation seer.

I liked the story but had some qualms with it. I don't like that some people were allowed privileged info about it and some weren't. I think it should be all or none for fairness purposes.

Additionally, I think I would be really interested in a story game that didn't follow a specific theme (ie the mod made the story completely based on the actions of characters, etc). Because like dubs said, I think I was underrepresented ;) And giving people certain roles here kinda made it seem like they were a lot more important (which they probably are in the video game) then others, which doesnt make me feel super warm and cuddly if that makes sense lol. And because these characters were often impossible/very hard to kill, it made a lot of villagers pretty frustrated pretty quickly. So I think instead of having us try to fit a story, I think it would be fun to have the story come from us, if that makes sense?

Oh, and more death :D:ninja:
and double oh, no bad people in dead chat :nono:
People asked for different levels of involvement. Do you think that might have played into the level of information they got?

Like I'm sorry, but if you asked to basically be a spectator and then bitched that your role wasn't powerful or involved enough... that's no one's "fault" but your own imo (in the cases where people asked for that). It shouldn't even be a negative.
 

CoffeeQuestionMark

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People asked for different levels of involvement. Do you think that might have played into the level of information they got?

Like I'm sorry, but if you asked to basically be a spectator and then bitched that your role wasn't powerful or involved enough... that's no one's "fault" but your own imo (in the cases where people asked for that). It shouldn't even be a negative.
I'm not sure that's what she was talking about. Maybe this was more obvious in death chat. There were 2 very main characters (you and mel), a few more secondary main characters (myself, jboo, capri, etc), and the other characters that really only showed up when they're killed.

So more important in that they're reading the write ups looking for themselves but don't show up because they aren't a main character
 
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Navilly

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I'm not sure that's what she was talking about. Maybe this was more obvious in death chat. There were 2 very main characters (you and mel), a few more secondary main characters (myself, jboo, capri, etc), and the other characters that really only showed up when they're killed.

So more important in that they're reading the write ups looking for themselves but don't show up because they aren't a main character
That would be the difference between a narrative story and involved write ups without a cohesive narrative. Narrative story had character arcs, has character development, etc. there is only so little pages that can be used to include 10-15 main characters let alone 33. And I was already getting complaints about how long the write ups were. So within a narrative style, how would you prefer that be solved, or suggestions on how to solve it? Or do you prefer non-narrative where each character is treated with fairly equal weight?
 

CoffeeQuestionMark

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That would be the difference between a narrative story and involved write ups without a cohesive narrative. Narrative story had character arcs, has character development, etc. there is only so little pages that can be used to include 10-15 main characters let alone 33. And I was already getting complaints about how long the write ups were. So within a narrative style, how would you prefer that be solved, or suggestions on how to solve it? Or do you prefer non-narrative where each character is treated with fairly equal weight?
I don't know. I didn't personally find it bothersome, just trying to articulate what I thought ziggy was saying based on from dead chat.

edit: I reread it again though and see it seemed like her suggestion was to build the story off the game. So rather than have set main characters before the game starts, have the characters become more involved in the story based on how the players are interacting with each other.
 
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ziggyandjazzy

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People asked for different levels of involvement. Do you think that might have played into the level of information they got?

Like I'm sorry, but if you asked to basically be a spectator and then bitched that your role wasn't powerful or involved enough... that's no one's "fault" but your own imo (in the cases where people asked for that). It shouldn't even be a negative.
I didn't ASK to be like a spectator. I said I was available the whole time. I understand not everyone can be the star, but this comment feels pretty ****ty coming from you, gotta say.
 

Stroganoff

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Is... is this over yet? Thanks Navilly and Karabiner.

This thread is... intimidatingly lengthy. Will wait for Netflix version.
****************
 

StayingPositive2017

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Wondering on peoples thoughts on narrative games vs. involved write up non-narrative games (similar effort in write ups, usually a bit less writing, but no cohesive story). Did you care about the story/enjoy story? Did you connect with the story/your character within the story? Narrative takes a lot of effort, so I am wondering what people takes are on it in general?
Best not have me play as I always seem to break things. I am why we can't have nice things :rofl:
 
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Stagg737

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Is it over?
 
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PippyPony

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I didn't ASK to be like a spectator. I said I was available the whole time. I understand not everyone can be the star, but this comment feels pretty ****ty coming from you, gotta say.
I wasn't talking about you :shrug:

I'm not sure why it feels ****ty, I'm just pointing out that some people did ask for different levels of involvement, which is true.
 

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An aside: Trilt fell on her sword today to ensure pippy won, while pippy betrayed Trilt last night, as if she had killed Coopah last night, parity would not have been hit before the night kill, meaning True antagonists and Chaos would have won together (Pippy would have ruled Firma instead of The Vale). So, Pippy betrayed Trilt twice, but Trilt gave up her win to ensure Pippy won.
@PippyPony say it aint so!

#TrueAntagonists4eva
 
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PippyPony

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StartingoverVet

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That would be the difference between a narrative story and involved write ups without a cohesive narrative. Narrative story had character arcs, has character development, etc. there is only so little pages that can be used to include 10-15 main characters let alone 33. And I was already getting complaints about how long the write ups were. So within a narrative style, how would you prefer that be solved, or suggestions on how to solve it? Or do you prefer non-narrative where each character is treated with fairly equal weight?
My constructive criticisms:
*. Extremely Long writeups in a game with a lot of players was pretty hard to digest. Normally I would have been all over the write ups, but until 1/2 the people were eliminated, I didn’t really have time, and I am sure I am not the only one who skimmed through a number of write ups just to keep up.
*multiple wolves with various unknowable ways of being killed ultimately was very demotivating as a villager, there was a certain blasé attitude that kicked in that you as mod were just doing whatever you wanted to tell a story, and it wasn’t worth the effort to figure it out as players, not to mention being next to impossible to do so.
*for me, this game falls in the category as @DocEspana complains where the game has strayed too far from WW anymore, and is something else. I like problem solving and mechanics more than most in WW, but if it is too hard, or in some cases impossible to understand the mechanics I just kind of shrug.
*personal preference is that I dislike super powered players, as the game is much less interesting to those who don’t have those roles. I especially don’t like chaos with win conditions, Again this is preference though.
*Didn’t know the theme, and don’t really get why it was such a big deal to keep it secret. And not really thrilled that some people knew and others didn’t.

The game had really nicely thought out roles, and a lot of love in the writeups, and was very well run. I really enjoyed playing so that is a tribute to your game design and game running. The stuff above is just a few points that distracted from the overall perfection.

Thank you for your time and effort.
 

PippyPony

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Sorry mods, I know I promised to do a wolf/chaos brag at the end of this, but I'm not feeling it anymore.

For anyone who is mad that I knew the theme...I would have known it 3 sentences into the first write up anyways, since it is my favorite game (I'm re-playing it now, actually) & the write ups were not subtle references to the game scenes. I agree that it was probably extremely difficult for people to not use the theme, or to be restricted on what they could/could not say or do, and I gave that feedback in sign ups before the game even started.

I'm sorry to everyone who's obviously very upset with me -- I was only doing my best to play to the role itself and was pretty darn proud of myself for actually doing it until recently. I'm also sad I couldn't make everyone happy at the end. It wasn't even clear to me until very recently that I would win with other factions, or that I would need to make a choice like that. I thought there would be a greater number of people happy with a village win, so I picked that, but it seems like everyone is still mad at me anyways so I guess I did that wrong. First time I haven't wanted to see dead chat because I don't think I can handle it.

I'm still thankful for this role -- it tested the limits of my creativity and also pushed me to be a harsh survivor in more ways than one, when my natural inclination as a bad guy is to be more of a team operator.
 

Animal Midwife

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Sorry mods, I know I promised to do a wolf/chaos brag at the end of this, but I'm not feeling it anymore.

For anyone who is mad that I knew the theme...I would have known it 3 sentences into the first write up anyways, since it is my favorite game (I'm re-playing it now, actually) & the write ups were not subtle references to the game scenes. I agree that it was probably extremely difficult for people to not use the theme, or to be restricted on what they could/could not say or do, and I gave that feedback in sign ups before the game even started.

I'm sorry to everyone who's obviously very upset with me -- I was only doing my best to play to the role itself and was pretty darn proud of myself for actually doing it until recently. I'm also sad I couldn't make everyone happy at the end. It wasn't even clear to me until very recently that I would win with other factions, or that I would need to make a choice like that. I thought there would be a greater number of people happy with a village win, so I picked that, but it seems like everyone is still mad at me anyways so I guess I did that wrong. First time I haven't wanted to see dead chat because I don't think I can handle it.

I'm still thankful for this role -- it tested the limits of my creativity and also pushed me to be a harsh survivor in more ways than one, when my natural inclination as a bad guy is to be more of a team operator.
I was having fun with you and feel alright with the outcome of things. Sorry if things got harsh during the game.
 
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PippyPony

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Excerpts from Role PMs, in case anyone is interested in my action submissions or funny things from the beginning of the game


Some ideas...

Spells:

Reflect: reflects all non-physical actions back on the caster (reflects seering, blocking/stop, protect, redirection back on to the original user)

Shell: Shield target from most seering and other non-physical attacks

Protect: Protect target from most physical attacks

Doom: cast delayed death on a player

Silence: duh

Haste: cast during one cycle to allow the target two for the price of one the following cycle

Might/Focus: add strongarm/unstoppable effect to other actions

Confuse: force target's action to be randomly redirected

Osmose/Eat: sap/absorb the target's ability

Physical/Special :

Attack/kill: pew pew

Cover: use a player as a shield on another player

Steal: steal items (and cash money)

Auto-Revive: equip to be automatically rezzed (at lower strength/diminished abilities would be ok)

Roulette: pew pew on a random player

Beserk: Cause player to attack relentlessly at random
Quick clarification here that I should have done before I opened my big lying mouth in wolf chat:

Who can I win with? Do my lackeys and I need to be the last ones standing for us to win? :nailbiting: Or can I win with wolves? Or can I win with Trilt and KC?

Probably should figure that out before I decide how much more to lie...

For example, I'm debating telling the Queen Brahne crew that I can't kill anyone, but I need to know my ultimate win condition before I set myself down limited paths like that.
So here is what I will say. Your motivations are that of Kuja in the game. Your win condition is vague because, well, it’s vague in the game. I would explore how he treats the relationships of those around him, and the methodology in which he handles certain situations, and you can maybe make more sense of how to play it. Yes I am being vague, and yes I am not really giving you an answer, but I feel that it you do this, you will understand a lot better what things may be ideal or less than ideal to do.
*fake hissing sounds*

Serious question: is it possible for me to win this game?

I'm still going to try to fulfill what I think would be the win conditions, of course, but it would be helpful to know if this is destined to be just a moral victory instead of an actual one haha
I promise you that is 100% possible for you to win this game
With that said, you also have the most difficult role in the game. You start with no true allies, you have to balance information in three different places, and you have limitless power which is sometimes more difficult than having a defined power. And that’s disregarding all the other roles/mechanics working against you this game. But let’s put it this way, the game is meant to give you a fighting chance.
Things that amuse me, D2 edition:

- Ticking off AM until she defends Mel in giant, bolded, underlined text
- SAR being giddy and excited that she actually killed someone
- How NO ONE on the thread said I was sketchy today, nor asked what I received for winning a 3 day vote, or even seemed to remember anything remotely related to the fact that they all voted to upgrade me and then there were two night attacks.
Equip auto life:

Permanently equip a 1x resurrection with abilities intact, to be activated upon the execution of an action (lynch or kill) that would result in my death.
Ok I think I am going to do this

Equip auto-life
Ok. Since I don't have intel from Capri to play around with here and I don't know if I want her to get killed off before she can take down another country...

Switch Stagg with AM so that whatever is directed at her hits him

and hopefully that goes through the ridiculous # of extra lives he has. And god help me if it doesn't go through or if he flips solid wolf because I will be ****ed when they realize I am gone from the pack.
Some ideas for tonight...

- plant a bomb on the queen
- cast haste on one of the twins so they can get around the EON deal
- cast beserk on one of the bounty hunters for the lulz
- double the strength of the smog monsters
Hmmm

How about this?

Sever genny's connection with Allie (PM and role mechanic)
N Whatever Contingency action:

SCAN AM for all player data,

including role name, affiliation, ability(ies), relative strength (level/HP), current party members, any weaknesses (e.g. elemental weaknesses, vulnerable to magic, etc), current status effects/buffs, trance bar status, current equipment, items available for theft, items in inventory, exact location, current target. Report data for lists (inventory, party members) as names, not number of x.
I'm such an idiot, I've been sitting here like "what's the best way to get a much information on players as possible? Steal their ability? Yeah that sounds good!"

:X3:

Think big, self. Think big.

I should have done this as my first action, I'm so mad at myself right now lol

As it is, I'm just going to be confirming things I already half-know
Everything I want to do looks wolfy as **** or is not possible to do :-/
soooo I assume you are not closing tonight?

I will try to submit something that works but no promises, I just got out of work & probably have another all nighter.

If I can't think of anything

Bank an action for tomorrow night when I can dedicate more time
1. Run the same scan on Mel that I ran on AM the other day

adjust the capri action to:

2. Extract the gellune Bahamut from Queen Capri, and before she knows what hit her, command Bahamut to megaflare that **** until her Majesty is toast
Goals for Act 3

- Stay alive
- Bitch less
- Moar lulz
- Moar megaflare
- Drop myself into at least one new pack
- Set the stage to take over a write up or two heading into end game
Run the same scan on Mel that I ran on AM the other day
Pippy have you been chaos all along?
Yes ma'am
Upgrade Paws's bomb to take out the one guaranteed person PLUS additional people (consecutive voters) under the following parameters:

Double Trouble:
Anyone who has voted for one of the twins at the end of the day in the final tally, two+ days in a row, has a 50% chance of being mortally hit by the explosion.

...Don't think there's any way that's getting approved despite nerfing it from what I want to do, but it's worth a shot lol
Ladies, it has been fun.

Leeeeerooooooooy
This is very anti climactic.
Pips we have some flute we've been sitting on.should we play it tonight? It's a fairy/fifee thing
Aaaahhhh why would you not use that

It's a faatle flute
Cuz I didn't know what it did
use the flute tonight
Wait hold on

Moogles can do a couple things in the game:
- Deliver/send mail
- Tent (heals your party)
- Save

What message did you get with the flute?
Just said we got a fatale flute please refer to item rules. Not anything special.
Lol

Let's still use it
Lol...I hope the moogle flute is like a save point.
I am so glad to finally not feel like I have to change things on the DL or be sneaky sneak
You can upgrade them to straight take out two people guaranteed when they die, do you want to do that?
But I want moar

Upgrade action is only on one person... :sneaky:
I don't know if you are being a **** for the purposes of being a **** or not, but I need to start working on the write up, since everything has been undone from the previous night, so now I need to be creative and get a cohesive story together.
Nope, am not doing it on purpose lol
Is it relevant to write up? If not just work on that, I can wait

Also don't be mad at me that you put a moogle flute into the game lol
You all passed it around for 4 nights and used it on the one night that breaks the game :p

But regardless, Paws gets the game breaker title at the end of this game lol.
You are such a troll lol
I blame this on everyone who is boring af right now

I have an overactive, impulsive mind with zero attention span, I can't be expected to entertain myself for this long
If only you didn’t have a fake posting restriction and could actually interact with others ;)
Lol AM stop trolling the troll and answer my question

I found the cutest fox picture I could find
If you guys used Zombie on yourselves tonight, I think that might work as protection?
Keep in mind we now know you're not actually connected tonight and so I'm not sure pack mechanics will be super effective
Bit worried that people will "attack" you with village actions
The Zombie thing is predicated on their actions being switched too, btw.

Zombie --> heal = kill

So if their actions are now heal = kill, then that should reverse it

...I hope?

I swear I'm not trying to kill you guys like I did Capri
Actual night action:

Reflect Stagg's own extra kill back onto himself, with a message written in sparkly magic smoke that says "karma is a bitch"

Goodbyeeee, sunshine
...adjust my action to include:

Cast beserk on Stagg so he is compelled to attack and then reflect it back on himself.
Just in case he decides to get any fun ideas like holding onto that extra kill now that Cubs is pressuring him to use it.
inb4 you two actually flip Antagonists --> Antagonistically Aligned Chaos or something
:rofl:
Hmmm hmm

• party crash a pack
• drop into SOV's role PM
• steal/silently control lynch vote for tomorrow
• ...swap someone with the leading lynch candidate?
• chuck Mel out of the game for a day
• manipulate someone's night results
• steal AM's ability
• full seer trilt
• bank an action for later/swap to a day action for tomorrow
• murder someone
• steal a dead persons ability

So many choices
Read SOV's role PM

Redirect Mel onto Miz
Kill Mel
 

Stagg737

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People asked for different levels of involvement. Do you think that might have played into the level of information they got?

Like I'm sorry, but if you asked to basically be a spectator and then bitched that your role wasn't powerful or involved enough... that's no one's "fault" but your own imo (in the cases where people asked for that). It shouldn't even be a negative.
I agree with this but for the opposite reason. People who asked for less involvement were basically given a free pass for the first half of the game and didn't have to worry about being lynched or NK'd which was frustrating. I don't necessarily have a problem with that to a certain extent, but about half the players weren't touchable for a long time and there were certain players who definitely had a big advantage towards the end of the game because there was less info to glean from them (due to post restrictions or b/c they simply didn't have to be around).

Wondering on peoples thoughts on narrative games vs. involved write up non-narrative games (similar effort in write ups, usually a bit less writing, but no cohesive story). Did you care about the story/enjoy story? Did you connect with the story/your character within the story? Narrative takes a lot of effort, so I am wondering what people takes are on it in general?
Loved the narrative with in-depth write-ups. I felt like there was a layer(s) of depth to this game that I haven't seen before. Biggest critique is the whole redemption point with the affiliation changes. As pointed out, a lot of people didn't take the fluidity of the game into account as much and stuck by rules of "never listen to an outed wolf" and such. Which is normally fine but was detrimental to village in this game.

My other critique was that I think some of the characters were made too obvious in write-ups. It was reeeeaaally easy for wolves to figure out who most of the villagers were just from the write-ups very early (like D3). I understand that it was a narrative to tell the story, but there were times where it was so obvious that it almost seemed like the story was trying to push to get specific characters killed, which I'm not really a fan of. I also don't think hiding the theme was really necessary. You'd had contingency plans for if things strayed off course and some parts of the plot ended up being completely different (Mel's conversion), so I think I'd rather have known the theme and had a narrative that felt more organic with how the game developed based on how people were playing as opposed to a narrative that seemed to be pushing specific actions with seemingly pre-determined outcomes (even in small ways).
 
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Sorry mods, I know I promised to do a wolf/chaos brag at the end of this, but I'm not feeling it anymore.

For anyone who is mad that I knew the theme...I would have known it 3 sentences into the first write up anyways, since it is my favorite game (I'm re-playing it now, actually) & the write ups were not subtle references to the game scenes. I agree that it was probably extremely difficult for people to not use the theme, or to be restricted on what they could/could not say or do, and I gave that feedback in sign ups before the game even started.

I'm sorry to everyone who's obviously very upset with me -- I was only doing my best to play to the role itself and was pretty darn proud of myself for actually doing it until recently. I'm also sad I couldn't make everyone happy at the end. It wasn't even clear to me until very recently that I would win with other factions, or that I would need to make a choice like that. I thought there would be a greater number of people happy with a village win, so I picked that, but it seems like everyone is still mad at me anyways so I guess I did that wrong. First time I haven't wanted to see dead chat because I don't think I can handle it.

I'm still thankful for this role -- it tested the limits of my creativity and also pushed me to be a harsh survivor in more ways than one, when my natural inclination as a bad guy is to be more of a team operator.
I'm not sure what you think is in there, but dead chat is entertaining and worth reading.
 

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Sorry mods, I know I promised to do a wolf/chaos brag at the end of this, but I'm not feeling it anymore.

For anyone who is mad that I knew the theme...I would have known it 3 sentences into the first write up anyways, since it is my favorite game (I'm re-playing it now, actually) & the write ups were not subtle references to the game scenes. I agree that it was probably extremely difficult for people to not use the theme, or to be restricted on what they could/could not say or do, and I gave that feedback in sign ups before the game even started.

I'm sorry to everyone who's obviously very upset with me -- I was only doing my best to play to the role itself and was pretty darn proud of myself for actually doing it until recently. I'm also sad I couldn't make everyone happy at the end. It wasn't even clear to me until very recently that I would win with other factions, or that I would need to make a choice like that. I thought there would be a greater number of people happy with a village win, so I picked that, but it seems like everyone is still mad at me anyways so I guess I did that wrong. First time I haven't wanted to see dead chat because I don't think I can handle it.

I'm still thankful for this role -- it tested the limits of my creativity and also pushed me to be a harsh survivor in more ways than one, when my natural inclination as a bad guy is to be more of a team operator.
Not sure what you have to apologize about? You were playing a WW game, and trying to win. I don’t see anything at all you did wrong. Mods created your role, and you played it. Well done.

Letting you live after the last 7 was inexplicable, and that wasn’t your fault.
 

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I agree that it was probably extremely difficult for people to not use the theme
Yes, and I'll also add that the rules in terms of this were very vague and should have been better clarified since I don't enjoy being called a cheater multiple times when I didn't actually break any freaking rules. The only thing initially posted was this:

There is in fact a cohesive theme to this game, and is filled with a truly fantastic story, however, in order to allow for the story to be told in a free and unbeholden manner, the theme shall not be revealed. If you figure out the theme before the end of the game, feel free to use it to speculate FOR YOURSELF. You may not ever reveal the theme within the game thread, pm, or any other location
So when Mel posted about the mist, bandits, and other stuff it technically was theme solving and led to this:

The next time I see any hint or attempts at theme solving on the thread, I am simply going to end the game. So don't mess up the game for everyone else around you (this was and has been the #1 rule of the game). Think before you type stuff. Thanks. (I am a bit too pissed tonight to continue writing, will attempt to get it done in the morning...)
So again, talking about trying not to solve theme on the thread. It said nothing about posting that "hey, I know things and we should do X thing based on that." So while it prohibited theme "solving", use of theme for game strategy or even saying "I know the theme" was NOT originally prohibited. EVER. PERIOD. It wasn't until after my post where I mentioned INDIRECTLY that I knew what the theme was that Navi posted that no one was allowed to even reference the theme. If that was the rule it should have been explicitly stated in the two other times that rules about the theme were mentioned.

So if people got angry and thought I was cheating then they should either read the rules more closely or ask to have them clarified better. Most of you should know by now that I'll get creative and take advantage of what's given WITHIN THE RULES and that I'll try and find loopholes if possible. Attacking my integrity for that is utter BS and frankly makes me not want to play on this site in the future, as it sounds like people whining because things didn't go their way. So if people want to be pissy cry babies about it when it ended up not even really impacting the game then they can cry me a river, because that's a flaw with the stated rules/design, not how it was played.
 
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Navilly

Navilly

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I don't know. I didn't personally find it bothersome, just trying to articulate what I thought ziggy was saying based on from dead chat.

edit: I reread it again though and see it seemed like her suggestion was to build the story off the game. So rather than have set main characters before the game starts, have the characters become more involved in the story based on how the players are interacting with each other.
I agree with the idea here, but the problem is that in this type of scenario, it's hard to create a cohesive narrative. So let's say we see these 5 people seeming to direct a lot of action, so you start to direct 5 or so story arcs. Let's say that 3 or 4 of those people die in the first half of the game. Sure you have likely got more and more characters involved in those arcs, but then it feels like more you have created a world, and here are things going on in the world rather than a story, if that makes sense (think GoT without the cohesiveness of the story). I have done a narrative one like this prior, and I personally think it missed the mark as a narrative game. I guess, I just am not sure of a good strategy on this, without having a couple of key characters I know will stick around for a bit, even if some of the characters I really wanted to use in the story (Brazlak, Iji, Wiske, Krammet, and Ristham) all died so early.
I like puzzles so I did enjoy picking out the hints in the story. However unfortunately that was only so helpful because about half of the players it seemed treated it as a regular game, and didn't take into account storyline mechanics.

Anyways, I would say it kept me more invested for that reason. However, it was REALLY long, and think for playing something like that, would've been nice to have like more return on investment..?

Not really sure how to put that. But like, we spent a week or so reading and figuring out the story, using it to chase down the antagonists, found them all pretty quickly, felt really good about that but in the end it didn't seem to matter because their affiliations all changed once capri was dead. In this way, it was like being really invested and then that investment feels wasted.

Definitely applaud the effort you in as it was very unique, a great game, totally worth playing.
So, this comes into the other problem with story based narratives. My goal was a story, and I think I did a pretty good job of getting a full and complete story out of it, with a few minor issues. With that said, without having a 50 person game, I am not quite sure the best way that I can FULLY reward you for finding the wolves, and having you deplete their lives was a measure (for instance with SAR it was 3 and done, which is lynch, a night kill, a lynch. Dolphin and paws was the same as lynching them separately, just a delayed death, Capri you knew was untouchable, so you didn't bark up that road, Stagg I can understand the frustration, but I wanted them to live through to their redemption arc OR be killed by Mero (Pippy could destroy all 5 lives with one kill). In addition to that, I made all of the True Antagonists quite squishy, such that they had no means of surviving a kill or a lynch attempt. And I completely get what you are saying there, however, Dolphin and Paws were definitely anti village still, as was Pippy. So the only one that it became not fortuitous to continue lynching was Stagg. But I completely understand the frustration there, I guess I need to rethink a bit more about how fluidity can work.

I didn't ASK to be like a spectator. I said I was available the whole time. I understand not everyone can be the star, but this comment feels pretty ****ty coming from you, gotta say.
FWIW, you would have likely survived quite awhile if Coffee hadn't outed you early on. You were intuitive on who to predict, even on the day you were killed you knew you were being killed, and was going to protect yourself if it wasn't for the burn. With that said, I do apologize that some people received roles that didn't match their activity levels (was below the anticipated levels they wanted)
My constructive criticisms:
*. Extremely Long writeups in a game with a lot of players was pretty hard to digest. Normally I would have been all over the write ups, but until 1/2 the people were eliminated, I didn’t really have time, and I am sure I am not the only one who skimmed through a number of write ups just to keep up.
*multiple wolves with various unknowable ways of being killed ultimately was very demotivating as a villager, there was a certain blasé attitude that kicked in that you as mod were just doing whatever you wanted to tell a story, and it wasn’t worth the effort to figure it out as players, not to mention being next to impossible to do so.
*for me, this game falls in the category as @DocEspana complains where the game has strayed too far from WW anymore, and is something else. I like problem solving and mechanics more than most in WW, but if it is too hard, or in some cases impossible to understand the mechanics I just kind of shrug.
*personal preference is that I dislike super powered players, as the game is much less interesting to those who don’t have those roles. I especially don’t like chaos with win conditions, Again this is preference though.
*Didn’t know the theme, and don’t really get why it was such a big deal to keep it secret. And not really thrilled that some people knew and others didn’t.

The game had really nicely thought out roles, and a lot of love in the writeups, and was very well run. I really enjoyed playing so that is a tribute to your game design and game running. The stuff above is just a few points that distracted from the overall perfection.

Thank you for your time and effort.
A) Yeah, I completely understand that. I guess I could have gotten progressively longer and longer with the write ups as I went, but I was trying to establish early on that good information was hidden in the write ups, and its hard to hide information without there being some fluff around it.
B) If I redid this game, I would've had a role in there that can assess how many lives each person had at that given time, and provided them with a bit of protection. I think the not knowing how to kill was more frustrating than the them not dying on first lynch, and I can understand that bleakness as a villager.
C) I completely agree that this is on the avante garde side of WW games. Out of curiosity, would you be able to go over some of the mechancis you felt were too daunting?
D) So chaoses win condition was simply to reach parity (to survive to end game). It's very similar to how serial killer functions. Do you believe third parties shouldn't be able to win in conjunction with village? With respect to overpowered villagers/other roles, I agree with you on that. It's hard to navigate narrative games without having that though, as if you develop a story on 10 characters or 15 characters, you need to hope at least 5 of those survive. I guess I really need to rethink how to do narrative games in the future to hit that tricky balance on that.
E) The reason I kept it secret was more to prevent infighting with the antagonists to a minimum in early game. If Capri looked up the game, Stagg and Pippy both would have been attempted to be killed by the pack early on. I could've gone more off script with how I played it, but I really liked the story from the game and wanted to do it as much justice as I could.
I agree with this but for the opposite reason. People who asked for less involvement were basically given a free pass for the first half of the game and didn't have to worry about being lynched or NK'd which was frustrating. I don't necessarily have a problem with that to a certain extent, but about half the players weren't touchable for a long time and there were certain players who definitely had a big advantage towards the end of the game because there was less info to glean from them (due to post restrictions or b/c they simply didn't have to be around).



Loved the narrative with in-depth write-ups. I felt like there was a layer(s) of depth to this game that I haven't seen before. Biggest critique is the whole redemption point with the affiliation changes. As pointed out, a lot of people didn't take the fluidity of the game into account as much and stuck by rules of "never listen to an outed wolf" and such. Which is normally fine but was detrimental to village in this game.

My other critique was that I think some of the characters were made too obvious in write-ups. It was reeeeaaally easy for wolves to figure out who most of the villagers were just from the write-ups very early (like D3). I understand that it was a narrative to tell the story, but there were times where it was so obvious that it almost seemed like the story was trying to push to get specific characters killed, which I'm not really a fan of. I also don't think hiding the theme was really necessary. You'd had contingency plans for if things strayed off course and some parts of the plot ended up being completely different (Mel's conversion), so I think I'd rather have known the theme and had a narrative that felt more organic with how the game developed based on how people were playing as opposed to a narrative that seemed to be pushing specific actions with seemingly pre-determined outcomes (even in small ways).
Out of curiosity, which players do you feel capitalized off of that the most (the ones that didn't have to be around so you could glean more off of them)?

Yeah, I am not sure how to handle redemption arcs better, since I provided a major hint on the first post that likely a wolf will become a villager.

At the same time, I do feel that it was almost as equally simply to start picking out who wolves were from the write ups by village. I was trying to be as fair as possible in that regard, but maybe I had slanted it a bit too much in the antagonists favor early on. With respect to the theme, look at the above post, and that is the main reason I had for hiding the theme.
Yes, and I'll also add that the rules in terms of this were very vague and should have been better clarified since I don't enjoy being called a cheater multiple times when I didn't actually break any freaking rules. The only thing initially posted was this:



So when Mel posted about the mist, bandits, and other stuff it technically was theme solving and led to this:



So again, talking about trying not to solve theme on the thread. It said nothing about posting that "hey, I know things and we should do X thing based on that." So while it prohibited theme "solving", use of theme for game strategy or even saying "I know the theme" was NOT originally prohibited. EVER. PERIOD. It wasn't until after my post where I mentioned INDIRECTLY that I knew what the theme was that Navi posted that no one was allowed to even reference the theme. If that was the rule it should have been explicitly stated in the two other times that rules about the theme were mentioned.

So if people got angry and thought I was cheating then they should either read the rules more closely or ask to have them clarified better. Most of you should know by now that I'll get creative and take advantage of what's given WITHIN THE RULES and that I'll try and find loopholes if possible. Attacking my integrity for that is utter BS and frankly makes me not want to play on this site in the future, as it sounds like people whining because things didn't go their way. So if people want to be pissy cry babies about it when it ended up not even really impacting the game then they can cry me a river, because that's a flaw with the stated rules/design, not how it was played.
I don't think you were trying to cheat, and I appreciate the loopholes. The problem came in that Mel had made it clear already they knew the theme, and then you had directed a theme argument at Mel, referenced them as bosses in there, and threw a lynch from you to chaos based off of theme, which is not what I had wanted. If you had gone with story based reasons, I had put a fair amount in there that could have implicated them in that regard, I would've been thrilled by that. Or even if you had stuck to arguments regarding your wolf pm instead. I just didn't want it to be like "The game says it must happen this way, so everyone vote them instead." As it's a less.... fulfilling type of lynch, and frustrating if you are lynched because someone knows you are a bad guy in the game and another verifies that, if that makes sense. (sorry, typing fast as I had to leave, so if any of that didn't follow, my bad).
 

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Since I'm pretty sure this is targeted at me...

It wasn't until after my post where I mentioned INDIRECTLY that I knew what the theme was that Navi posted that no one was allowed to even reference the theme. If that was the rule it should have been explicitly stated in the two other times that rules about the theme were mentioned.
...it was literally stated in the first post of the game.

So if people got angry and thought I was cheating then they should either read the rules more closely or ask to have them clarified better. Most of you should know by now that I'll get creative and take advantage of what's given WITHIN THE RULES and that I'll try and find loopholes if possible. Attacking my integrity for that is utter BS and frankly makes me not want to play on this site in the future, as it sounds like people whining because things didn't go their way. So if people want to be pissy cry babies about it when it ended up not even really impacting the game then they can cry me a river, because that's a flaw with the stated rules/design, not how it was played.
On the contrary, it could have impacted the game a great deal as it would have taken away any chance any of the antagonists had on like D1 and started to confirm what people were wondering to themselves about the theme, as was evidenced by comments from others right afterwards and how thing started to shift. It'd be different in a game that didn't stay so true to the story, but in this case, it would have created a monster that was ultimately game breaking.

I thought the stipulation was SO clear in the opening posts that I thought there was no way you were making that call out to Mel without knowing it was clearly breaking the rules. So when you say it felt like people were being pissy cry babies...from my side it looked like you were being petulant and taking a cheap shot to basically mod-verify all the characters in the game because you didn't want to lose, not the other way around. I'm truly sorry for that implication if that wasn't your intent, but given that you targeted the only other player who had said something on the thread about the theme, that's how it looked to me at the time.

It would have been much easier for me to use the theme in some ways as well (for example, in retrospect, I almost definitely could have gotten the other antagonists to just agree to have me outright kill you in early game if I told them Beatrix was 100% traitor), but specifically didn't because of respect for those rules that were giving us a LITTLE wiggle room.

Although...maybe i should have just gone along with it, because I'm still really not sure why you hadn't considered the possibility that the other wolves would also convert to other factions when you did. Because as I said in the game...that would make for a pretty quick end to the game, and it was balanced much better than that haha.

...and let me also say that I don't think we were compensated nearly as much as you probably think we were lol. I mean I was ok with it, but it's not like it was any massive advantage.
 

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Since I'm pretty sure this is targeted at me...


...it was literally stated in the first post of the game.


On the contrary, it could have impacted the game a great deal as it would have taken away any chance any of the antagonists had on like D1 and started to confirm what people were wondering to themselves about the theme, as was evidenced by comments from others right afterwards and how thing started to shift. It'd be different in a game that didn't stay so true to the story, but in this case, it would have created a monster that was ultimately game breaking.

I thought the stipulation was SO clear in the opening posts that I thought there was no way you were making that call out to Mel without knowing it was clearly breaking the rules. So when you say it felt like people were being pissy cry babies...from my side it looked like you were being petulant and taking a cheap shot to basically mod-verify all the characters in the game because you didn't want to lose, not the other way around. I'm truly sorry for that implication if that wasn't your intent, but given that you targeted the only other player who had said something on the thread about the theme, that's how it looked to me at the time.

It would have been much easier for me to use the theme in some ways as well (for example, in retrospect, I almost definitely could have gotten the other antagonists to just agree to have me outright kill you in early game if I told them Beatrix was 100% traitor), but specifically didn't because of respect for those rules that were giving us a LITTLE wiggle room.

Although...maybe i should have just gone along with it, because I'm still really not sure why you hadn't considered the possibility that the other wolves would also convert to other factions when you did. Because as I said in the game...that would make for a pretty quick end to the game, and it was balanced much better than that haha.

...and let me also say that I don't think we were compensated nearly as much as you probably think we were lol. I mean I was ok with it, but it's not like it was any massive advantage.
It wasn't just directed at you, there were several people who said something and some of them were pretty low blows. Also, I quoted the first post which just stated "if you figure out the theme, don't give it away on thread". It didn't say that we weren't allowed to use it to strategize and it certainly didn't say we couldn't talk about it at all. Just that we were supposed to keep the actual theme to ourselves. That wasn't clarified until AFTER my posts. Everyone who wolfed with me in the noob game or Family Tree should already know I look for those kinds of loopholes.

I get where you're coming from with the part of the post where I mentioned Mel, and I didn't realize that was the implication until after Navi brought it up. The only thing I was trying to do with that part was move Mel's vote off of me, which he said he planned to do when I came back anyway. I think this was a really great game with great ideas that didn't go as smoothly or had hiccups because of Navi's unfamiliarity with how people play here and there were more than a few points where I was frustrated by things I couldn't do with my own role PM (like killing you early in the game).
 

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My constructive criticisms:
*. Extremely Long writeups in a game with a lot of players was pretty hard to digest. Normally I would have been all over the write ups, but until 1/2 the people were eliminated, I didn’t really have time, and I am sure I am not the only one who skimmed through a number of write ups just to keep up.
*multiple wolves with various unknowable ways of being killed ultimately was very demotivating as a villager, there was a certain blasé attitude that kicked in that you as mod were just doing whatever you wanted to tell a story, and it wasn’t worth the effort to figure it out as players, not to mention being next to impossible to do so.
*for me, this game falls in the category as @DocEspana complains where the game has strayed too far from WW anymore, and is something else. I like problem solving and mechanics more than most in WW, but if it is too hard, or in some cases impossible to understand the mechanics I just kind of shrug.
*personal preference is that I dislike super powered players, as the game is much less interesting to those who don’t have those roles. I especially don’t like chaos with win conditions, Again this is preference though.
*Didn’t know the theme, and don’t really get why it was such a big deal to keep it secret. And not really thrilled that some people knew and others didn’t.

The game had really nicely thought out roles, and a lot of love in the writeups, and was very well run. I really enjoyed playing so that is a tribute to your game design and game running. The stuff above is just a few points that distracted from the overall perfection.

Thank you for your time and effort.
e7133c0d-e92e-46ae-9399-52e9693fa349.jpg
 

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Oh -- shout out to @Jahboi who I corralled into playing this and who did a great job of figuring out how to play with no help from me!

I hope you decide to play another game -- they are definitely not all this long or this complex haha


(...also, sorry for killing you lol.)
 

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In addition to that, I made all of the True Antagonists quite squishy, such that they had no means of surviving a kill or a lynch attempt.
Say it louder for people in the back

I gave myself one death avoidance but was told that was it.

I was pretty easy to kill and was accordingly terrified for most of this game...

...especially when it got to the point where I was open chaosing on the thread and then we saw that abilities/lynch avoidances were going away and I looked death in the eyes and said "aaaahhh" but also "not today"

B) If I redid this game, I would've had a role in there that can assess how many lives each person had at that given time, and provided them with a bit of protection. I think the not knowing how to kill was more frustrating than the them not dying on first lynch, and I can understand that bleakness as a villager.
I think this is a really cool idea and probably would have helped players out a lot.

Also, having more village assassin shots that could go through wolf protective mechanisms.

I will say that I think an affiliation seer might have also helped for the shifting goal posts, but I'm darn glad you didn't have one (except me) because otherwise I definitely would have died lol.

(Side note -- I did consider trying to switch people's affiliations in early game, but decided that there was enough frustration there already to make that a lame choice.)
 

Trilt

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Say it louder for people in the back

I gave myself one death avoidance but was told that was it.

I was pretty easy to kill and was accordingly terrified for most of this game...

...especially when it got to the point where I was open chaosing on the thread and then we saw that abilities/lynch avoidances were going away and I looked death in the eyes and said "aaaahhh" but also "not today"
That was regarding true antagonists, not chaos.
 
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PippyPony

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That was regarding true antagonists, not chaos.
I was still pretty easy to kill compared to the rest of the original antagonists, with the exception of the times when I was not in the game (as you were also not).
 
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Melchizedek

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Trilt

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I usually would have turned a conversion down, but after this I basically had to take the conversion. Trilt put so much effort into it, it woulda been ****ty of me to decline and then out her haha
What's a lil guilt tripping between friends? ;)

I didn't think you'd accept if I didn't go all out tbh. My only ragretz is I couldn't find my partner's really legit resume paper and my calligraphy stuff to make it super badass.