Oh, lame. Well, residency, then teach? I wonder what it would be like if WVUPharm2007 were a teacher. 😵
Yet another new pharmacy school...
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Where is Z at? I think we should start a Pharmacy School here in Dallas. You could be the dean if you wanted to.
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There is no way to stop pharmacy schools from opening because the standards set by the ACPE are not high enough. In addition, the ACPE does not have the political will to put up a good fight. So as long as there is a demand, pharmacy schools will continue to pop up.
California has its own board exam which has a much lower pass rate than other states especially for foreign and out of california graduates. If the board is hard then it does not matter how many students pharmacy schools graduate each year.
California has its own board exam which has a much lower pass rate than other states especially for foreign and out of california graduates. If the board is hard then it does not matter how many students pharmacy schools graduate each year.
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The lack of qualified professionals teaching courses for these new programs is definitely a problem. Not only that, increasing numbers of applicants may lead to acceptance of lower quality students.
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Straight from Dean Colaizzi's mouth to our Pharm Law class. The best part is - their mission statement (Farleigh Dickinson) explicitly mentions "the pharmacist shortage in NJ."
ridiculooooous...
SO, just to prepare myself for the future, when where you graduated from starts to matter - I assume I'm good to go with Rutgers, right? I mean, I don't really pay much attention to the whole 'ranking' system so I have no clue...
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you two take care of dallas and I will lead the satellite program here in San Antone...
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I'd teach using Socratic method, use humorous analogies to explain concepts, and have an exam that tests critical thinking rather than only "the material.".
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Rutgers is a "decent" school on my 3 tiered "decent," "acceptable but sketchy," and "just plain sketchy" scale.
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haha...sketchy sounds about right for some of these schools. some of their names just sound like a joke...
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"Dyouville", New England, Cal Northstate...def in the sketchy category...
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So how exactly does the AMA keep the number of medical colleges from exploding? It's pretty clear there is intense demand for primary care docs. What are they doing to keep standards high and prevent high supply low demand situation?
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The AMA made a fatal mistake. They let the demand for primary care go too high and as a result, nurses are now taking over primary care.
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Allow me to take a different point-of-view.
Not excatly. You could get an interview almost anywhere with those stats today. Remember, people with sub par stats have been getting into competative programs forever, it's not just new schools who accept sub 3.0 GPA's and weak PCAT scores. People can keep using weak examples of sub par pre-pharmers geting into newby schools, but that's an exception even at those schools, just check the stats for new school avg entering GPA's on the AACP site. And everyone can keep glorifying their schools strict admissions, but it really isn't that linear. People aren't academic robots with perfect stats, so no matter how selective you say your school is I GARUNTEE there were plenty accepted with some less than stellar aspects of their application.
I don't think just because a school is new it means it's going to produce chumps. Take USN as an example. Pretty new school, but very selective admissions and a growing rep. for producing solid RPh's. So, here's a school you shiat on for being new but you guys probbaly coudn't score an interview yourself.
Overall, admissions is just random. You can't assume every new school is just out to make money and will accept anybody regardless of stats. For example, I have a 3.9GPA and 90+ PCAT and was accepted to some "good ol' boy" 80 year old established schools from out-of-state and rejected pre-interview from some newby ass schools like SJF.
And New Schools...boo hooo biatch.. Your parties being crashed and you're sulking like little bitches. Reality is, new schools aren't matriculating classes of boneheads. Most are probably taking people just as competative as yourself. Btw, what do you expect when a huge f'in pharmacist shortage S.O.S. has been displayed in the media for the last 5 years.
Pssshhh please. You actually buy the shiat coming out your pie hole? You know the increase in pharm applicants has made admissions more selective. The PCAT you took, if you even had to, is way more challenging now than when you took it. In fact, people who took it before June 2008 get their scores scaled back about 5 points to equate for the current test difficulty. Btw, that's an interesting point of view seeing as you go to a pharm school that offers an online pharmD.
Not excatly. You could get an interview almost anywhere with those stats today. Remember, people with sub par stats have been getting into competative programs forever, it's not just new schools who accept sub 3.0 GPA's and weak PCAT scores. People can keep using weak examples of sub par pre-pharmers geting into newby schools, but that's an exception even at those schools, just check the stats for new school avg entering GPA's on the AACP site. And everyone can keep glorifying their schools strict admissions, but it really isn't that linear. People aren't academic robots with perfect stats, so no matter how selective you say your school is I GARUNTEE there were plenty accepted with some less than stellar aspects of their application.
I don't think just because a school is new it means it's going to produce chumps. Take USN as an example. Pretty new school, but very selective admissions and a growing rep. for producing solid RPh's. So, here's a school you shiat on for being new but you guys probbaly coudn't score an interview yourself.
Overall, admissions is just random. You can't assume every new school is just out to make money and will accept anybody regardless of stats. For example, I have a 3.9GPA and 90+ PCAT and was accepted to some "good ol' boy" 80 year old established schools from out-of-state and rejected pre-interview from some newby ass schools like SJF.
And New Schools...boo hooo biatch.. Your parties being crashed and you're sulking like little bitches. Reality is, new schools aren't matriculating classes of boneheads. Most are probably taking people just as competative as yourself. Btw, what do you expect when a huge f'in pharmacist shortage S.O.S. has been displayed in the media for the last 5 years.
Pssshhh please. You actually buy the shiat coming out your pie hole? You know the increase in pharm applicants has made admissions more selective. The PCAT you took, if you even had to, is way more challenging now than when you took it. In fact, people who took it before June 2008 get their scores scaled back about 5 points to equate for the current test difficulty. Btw, that's an interesting point of view seeing as you go to a pharm school that offers an online pharmD.
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You think that declining quality and saturation in this profession won't catch up to you? You're only a resident now. I can't see how anyone can justify a lack of concern about this issue unless you're retiring soon or planning on a career change. Increased competition for jobs is going to lead to lower pay in most cases, especially in retail. And low quality pharmacists will lose respect for the profession, probably leading to less pay and responsibility.
A major shortage can't go on forever, but at least we could have more well known universities starting pharmacy schools first. We should also have two years of class and two of rotations like medical school. The first year of class is slow and too much like undergrad anyway. If you want students to know basic biochem, make it a pre-req. Rotations are probably a better learning experience anyway.
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The stats that people have been talking about while still being granted interviews are the lowest since the 90s. Sure, there are exception to the rule everywhere, but if you don't think the quality of the pool has been diluted I believe you are mistaken.
No...but there is a higher chance of it. The rotations aren't as good, the professors aren't as experienced, the school's protocols aren't as established. It's just natural growing pains.
They do?
I probably wouldn't "score" an interview anywhere being as though I've already completed pharmacy school, youngin'.
No it isn't.
I agree...some do seem decent. Like the one attached to Jefferson. It comes already associated to a major urban hospital and medical program. But some of these others like D'youville or New England...yikes. And this just isn't my opinion. I've spoken to several people in academia about this and they pretty much agree that these new schools are pointing the profession towards a path of tiered schools. Which is a double-edged sword. Sure, I'll look better in comparison because I went to one of the better schools in the region...but the influx of new graduates will probably kill retail pharmacy salaries. I'm not really concerned about them at all PERSONALLY because they are behind me experience wise and they will never be able to overtake my years of experience as a hospital/quasi-clinical pharmacist by the time they hit the real world. It's really the profession as a whole that I'm concerned about.
And about Jefferson...I loaded their website...this is the funniest damned picture I've seen in a while:
Wow! A bunch of stupid charts in the SANFORD guide!!!
Well, I hope you went to the big state school if that was the choice. They are usually the best ones out there. That's not even debatable, IMO.
Yeah. Because I don't want the PharmD to become the next MBA. 🙄 Hell, it probably won't even affect me personally.
How is that "reality?" We don't know this at all. Ask me after they graduate. Then we'll know.
Well, according to the stats, no, many aren't...
The media doesn't control pharmacy practice. I'd hope for some restraint. There are many graduating pharmacists that can't find jobs on the Eastern Seaboard and in California...where, yes, several schools are opening.
Uh...dude, the PCAT is graded on a percentile basis. It's the same no matter how "hard" it is. If someone took it in 2003 and they got an 85...against the same people on a different test...they'd more than likely still be in the 85th percentile...
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you seems very angry; if you have gotten into one of the "established" schools like you say, I'm not sure why this convo upsets you...? look, I'm still in school, but I am much farther along than you are and I can tell you, you have NO idea. You know nothing about anything when it comes to pharmacy practice or the profession - because you have not lived it. I can't even express to you how much I have learned in the last 3 years about phamacy as a whole. So you would do well to step down off of your spiteful pedastal and LISTEN to what people in the profession are telling you.
If you have gotten into pharmacy school, the reality is that you will soon not be "pre-pharmacy." Apparently, you prepharmers (in general) are evry sensitive about this. But in 5-6 years, when your having difficulty scheduling rotations, waiting in line for hours to put your name on the list to interview for a residency/fellowiship, or unable to find a retail position in your home state maybe you will see that the pharmacy "clown college" boom has taken away a chunk of your livilhood.
Oh, and if you can't understand the PCAT grading scale and the fact that it's percentile, well - good luck in your kinetics courses. The very fact that it's graded in percentile accounts for any difficulty changes; if the test WAS easier 3 years ago (when I took it - Jan 2006), people did better - i.e. percentiles shifted and you had to do EVEN better (raw score-wise) the get a higher percentile...the scoring is not static
And also, yes, generally increasing applicants would increase selectivity and therefore student quality. But not if supply (i.e. spaces available) increases at a higher rate than applicants. Take econ yet?
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In the Chicago area, a new pharmacy school at Chicago State U just opened up. What makes it funny is that CSU is considered to be one of the worst schools in the entire state. They are constantly having troubles at that school. I have no idea where they are going to do their rotations. Most of the major sites already have students from UIC, Midwestern, or Purdue. Sometimes, you even see a student from Drake. Some of the sites have exclustivity agreements with either UIC or Midwestern.
What makes it worse, is that the Chicago area is almost completely saturated. There are still opportunities in undesireable locations, but I wouldn't be surprise by the time the first CSU grad graduates, those locations will be filled.
What makes it worse, is that the Chicago area is almost completely saturated. There are still opportunities in undesireable locations, but I wouldn't be surprise by the time the first CSU grad graduates, those locations will be filled.
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Agreed. This is a major problem with all these schools opening up...a lack of quality rotation sites and quality preceptors to take students. Taking students is a lot of work for a preceptor. The Chicago area is a great example were the two established programs (UIC has been around forever, Midwestern almost 20 yrs) sometimes have trouble placing students for rotations. All the major hospitals already take a large number of students from one or both of these schools. I can't possibly see how they can take anymore. Plus these new schools don't have any alumni ties at this time making it harder to find preceptors for these students. It was a horrible idea to open up an another school in an already saturated market.
The last school that opened in IL prior Southern IL had no impact on the other schools. It was a completely different market and there was a need there (the school is like a 5-6 hr drive south of Chicago and there is a huge lack of pharmacists in Southern/Central IL).
I honestly don't see where all these students are going to go for rotations. It is very scary...
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Same here in NYC. Touro opened up with its dean citing that there is a real shortage of pharmacists in NYC. I have brought up rotation spots many times but its students keep on defending that they will have enough spots. I dont think they understand that besides rotational spots where you work for free in CVS, there are a lot of rotations that they must go through and that a preceptor can only be responsible for X amount of students. With the closing or merging of a few hospitals in NYC area, I really am clueless.
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Right...there is a difference between rotation sites and "quality" rotation sites. Sure you can find a ton of Walgreens and CVS's that will take students as free labor...but what beyond that? Preceptors are already bogged down with students.
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So how does the ACPE approve everyone through the 'rigorous' standards that have kept out institutions like HICP and company from forming? If it's supposedly so stringent, half of these new schools would be having a ridiculously hard time under microscopic scrutiny, no?
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It's hard to exercise restraint when someone argues against you with poor critical thinking.
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Yeah its really hard to do. You select the text, cut and paste into your message then highlight it and hit the quote button. It takes 2 seconds. Really advanced stuff.
Wow look I did it!!!
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Wow! A bunch of stupid charts in the SANFORD guide!!!
Hahah...I've been bugging the marketing department to change their pictures/website since last year. I don't even think those are Jefferson students at all, they're probably the PharmD residents since that's our asst. director of pharmacy for the hospital/director of experiential education for jefferson.
Cool guy, die hard eagles fan, and spends every waking hour of his day running the residency program and finding sites for us. We have built in preceptors in the form of the residents and in-house clinical/staff pharmacists.
Thank you for not equating jefferson to some of these new programs. Our professors were directly stolen from the neighboring medical school, USP and UMD. I managed to get a peek at our IPPE rotations for next year, we're pretty much at every major hospital in Phila/South Jersey...about the same breadth as Temple/USP.
But...I'm not gonna really talk the talk until we sit for NAPLEX and I take the CPJE, there's probably no convincing any of you until I have a job.
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They can't afford more than one sanford guide so they must all share one.
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And, that's not even the 2007 or 2008 antimicrobial edition...
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Well, what the hell else are you supposed to do with the things? I can't think of anything else to do with the old ones than use them as props in photo-ops.
I think green was the 2006 edition. I liked the simple black of the 2005 edition.
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The guy in the blue in the picture can't even see the Stanford guide but yet, he's all smiling.
It's because he can read Japanese and the front of the Stanford guide roughly translates to "The person reading this book is wearing a thong" in Japanese.
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The 2009 edition is a horrible lime green.
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The '03 edition was eye-blinding bright yellow.
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That is the last one I had.
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Thank you, that was my point. And I just wanted to commend my distance-based counterparts because they have typically done just as well as the campus classes on test scores and NAPLEX passing rates. Too bad rational thinking was overlooked by some.
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Straight from Dean Colaizzi's mouth to our Pharm Law class. The best part is - their mission statement (Farleigh Dickinson) explicitly mentions "the pharmacist shortage in NJ."
ridiculooooous...
SO, just to prepare myself for the future, when where you graduated from starts to matter - I assume I'm good to go with Rutgers, right? I mean, I don't really pay much attention to the whole 'ranking' system so I have no clue...
Dude, you have got to be kidding me. If that mission statement is correct then FDU needs to shut down before it can ever be opened.
Rutgers is a good school for the following reasons:
-well established with over 100+ years of history
-very strong pharmaceutical industry fellowship program (then again, its the only school in NJ and thats the capital of big pharma)
-Huge public institution
overall Rutgers to me is a upper middle class in terms of pharmacy schools are concerned. Certainly nowhere at the same level as UCSF, USC, Kentucky, etc, but we hold our own 🙂
Of course having graduated from there I do know of one big drawback:
class sizes are way too big
I'm just assuming but people may be more hostile now about new pharmacy schools since there are so many concurrent openings rather than one school in a location with virtually no pharmacy school. I can stand by a state approving a pharmacy school due to a lack of schools and in-state recruitment.
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Cal Northstate sounds more like a penitentiary than a higher ed institution
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Chartreuse and tonic is absolutely incredibly. It's like gin and tonic with ten times the flavor.
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I was gonna edit it to say "baby puke green" but WVU already quoted me before I could. He was keeping up on the threads....one mn after I entered it!
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Has anyone taken a look at Sullivan University's faculty? Half of their teachers don't even have a Ph.D. and look straight out of pharmacy school...
http://www.sullivan.edu/pharmacy/the_team.asp
http://www.sullivan.edu/pharmacy/the_team.asp
What sad about these new pharmacy schools, they are opening at schools that do not have any name recognition: Sullivan, University of Maryland Eastern Shores, D'Youville College... I mean are you serious? I have never heard of these schools before and for my undergrad degree I was looking at small liberal arts colleges. I mean I understand if there would be a pharmacy school opening at Harvard or Northwestern or Bowdoin - at least it would add some respect to the profession. It's an embarrassment for profession! Just wait few years, Phoenix University and any 4-year community college will be offering PharmD. People already have misconception about pharmacy - wait till we will be having graduates from D'Youville or whatever it's called...
People who decide to go to these programs do not realize that they are screwing themselves over. Soon walgreens and CVS will be hiring from only well-established programs. Plus, retail salaries might even go down from such a high supply of pharmacy graduates. Residencies are getting only more competitive. When I entered pharmacy school there were more spots available than applicants. Two years later, much more applicants than spots. I doubt these graduates will have a shot at even getting into residency.
People who decide to go to these programs do not realize that they are screwing themselves over. Soon walgreens and CVS will be hiring from only well-established programs. Plus, retail salaries might even go down from such a high supply of pharmacy graduates. Residencies are getting only more competitive. When I entered pharmacy school there were more spots available than applicants. Two years later, much more applicants than spots. I doubt these graduates will have a shot at even getting into residency.
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This forum makes me depressed 🙁
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I disagree. In a few years those of us that went to well established programs will be able to do better than Walgreesn or CVS.
Its the LECOM Erie, Sullivan, Feik School of the Incarnate Word, D'Whateverville and eventually the University of Phoenix online grads that will be working at CVS and Walgreens. They will be doing it at half the pay that is offered now because they can't get a job any where else.
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I disagree. Walgreens and CVS will hire whoever with a license and is willing to take their abuse. Pharmacists who graduated from a well established will take whatever Walgreens/CVS throw at them or compete with each other for a competitive position.
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I agree with this also. Retail pharmacy chains are only concerned with having someone liable for the fills - i.e. any licensed pharmacist. Academic prestige doesn't matter.
Eventually, the profession will need to shrink to its intended size. It's sort of like the housing bubble. Everyone is investing in a pharmacy education right now with the idea that they'd get a big return, but the market doesn't have enough positions.
