Yet another new pharmacy school...

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pharmdgodfather said:
Blah blah blah...hahahhahah
Okay seriously get a life or meet someone, or in your case pay someone...now back to my 300k job and my lamborghini...hahahah wah wah wah, confettiflier, your welcome for the entertainment blah blah blah blah
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Wow, you truly have the IQ of an orangutan, albeit one with delusions of grandeur. Your comments are so douche, I think I just forgave my buddy BMB. :smuggrin:
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MountainPharmD said:
So what does that say about you? You're here.

Its funny as hell posts like this that keep me coming back!
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I don't think he's real - he's probably an angry prepharmer.
He also can't spell.
 
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evilolive said:
I don't think he's real - he's probably an angry prepharmer.
He also can't spell.
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Actually I keep trying to warn the school districts that when you give special ed classrooms internet access... this is what you get.
 
Me too, I keep coming back...they keep pulling me back in...hahahaha, I love this...so much pharmacy students who will be so much in debt, no future, no jobs, I can't wait til they start implementing techs and robots to replace you losers...I already made all the money I can. Pharmacy is the career for people who are all about the money, too bad there is no more money, hahahah, wah wah wah
 
Im as real as you can be, you are all just in denial, how does 100k in debt sound. I only owed less than 10k in my time, and we had jobs. Haha
 
Don't be mad that you chose a career solely for financial reasons, and don't give me the whole I want to help people bs, we all know it is not real. I guess greed has a price. Its called school loans
 
They should change the pharmacy forum to medical school rejects, or for the clinical pharmacists to wannabe doctors. This whole clinical thing is laughable, justa bunch of med rejects who want to play doctor so going clinical makes them slightly feel less adequate. A retail pharmacist is a real pharmacist, not a wannabe doctor, clinical pharmacists are in the same boat as doctor of nurse practitioner.
 
cdpiano27 said:
However, you DO not see all these medical and dental schols opening up. Yes, there are quite a few new D.O. (osteopathic schools). If medicine and dentistry and control new schools from opening, then the pharmacists should be able to as well. There needs to be more lobbying and political power, here.
I would advice people interested in pharmacy to simply apply to medical school right now, and specialize in pharmacology during residency.

Also, in NJ, similar thing happened with nursing. Hospitals are closing down in NJ and many recent graduates in NJ cannot find a job after they are done with nursing school. Google "NJ allnurses".
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Exactly. I keep hearing "the ACPE, AACP can't do anything." Seems pretty incompetent
 
fungikid said:
I think the important question is: What can we do right now to control the pharmacy school flood? Can we learn from other professions like physicians?
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I think each new school should have to provide a thorough justification for the opening of a new school, including stats/data on pharmacist shortage/surplus in the local area, need in the population, i.e patient need, reasoning for new school, etc.
 
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janeno said:
What sad about these new pharmacy schools, they are opening at schools that do not have any name recognition: Sullivan, University of Maryland Eastern Shores, D'Youville College... I mean are you serious? I have never heard of these schools before and for my undergrad degree I was looking at small liberal arts colleges. I mean I understand if there would be a pharmacy school opening at Harvard or Northwestern or Bowdoin - at least it would add some respect to the profession. It's an embarrassment for profession! Just wait few years, Phoenix University and any 4-year community college will be offering PharmD. People already have misconception about pharmacy - wait till we will be having graduates from D'Youville or whatever it's called...

People who decide to go to these programs do not realize that they are screwing themselves over. Soon walgreens and CVS will be hiring from only well-established programs. Plus, retail salaries might even go down from such a high supply of pharmacy graduates. Residencies are getting only more competitive. When I entered pharmacy school there were more spots available than applicants. Two years later, much more applicants than spots. I doubt these graduates will have a shot at even getting into residency.
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What evidence to we have of this? Won't they simply hire the cheapest licensed pharmacist? It is a business after all.

AAMC & AMA have control over the number of medical schools opening, which is why so many off-shore medical schools have opened (and some have even closed since).
 
ffpickle said:
I think each new school should have to provide a thorough justification for the opening of a new school, including stats/data on pharmacist shortage/surplus in the local area, need in the population, i.e patient need, reasoning for new school, etc.
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I agree with this; a school opening up in Florida, California, or New Jersey at this point is simply a waste of money, time, and effort. A school opening up in states without readily available school from which to recruit from has every right to open a school to draw in-state professionals. If there's a limit on the amount of schools being opened, the amount of quality faculty would not be as diluted and thus, potentially better future pharmacists. I'm all for advancing this profession but right now, it feels more like saturation than advancement.

...maybe I need more coffee; I'm being pessimistic.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
The IT industry...the JD...the MBA...and so on...
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Rankings are v. important for JD & MBA, & regarding IT, well it depends which degree within IT you are talking about.

Perhaps PharmD will follow suit?
 
aznfarmerboi said:
he is still in pre-pharmacy. While his intentions are good, his ass is going to get bitten when he comes out. I am going to save this post and if he is still around 4 years later, pm it to him and see what his expression is.
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lol
 
StevePerry said:
Actually I keep trying to warn the school districts that when you give special ed classrooms internet access... this is what you get.
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That is very rude and unbecoming of a professional involved in health care.
 
PharmDstudent said:
That's what it sounds like.


I have zero interest in doing a residency. I may not even go to the ASHP convention this year, even though my cousin lives in Vegas and performs for a well-known company :cool:, because the idea of a residency is such a turn-off. It's like a sick spawn from the motherly god academia. :barf:

I'll just go where they need me fresh out of school and do additional education later down the line as it becomes necessary. Or if I feel homesick and sad from having my umbilical cord cut from mother academia, I'll go back to school sooner. - Residencies are ****.
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Everyone in this thread seems to be decrying the utility/usefulness of doing a residency:scared:

....from reading the Pharmacy residency section on SDN, it seemed all peachy keen, they gave mostly the upside! :confused:
 
ffpickle said:
Everyone in this thread seems to be decrying the utility/usefulness of doing a residency:scared:

....from reading the Pharmacy residency section on SDN, it seemed all peachy keen, they gave mostly the upside! :confused:
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I think it just depends on what you want to do with your career. I've heard both sides. I've talked to a few directors and they told me that even though the job description (clinical pharmacist) doesn't require a residency, they won't hire anyone without one. This is just a few that I've had a chance to talk to. Of course it's not true everywhere. I've been told that if I have a slightest interest in doing it, I should. We'll see what will happen next year.
 
ffpickle said:
Everyone in this thread seems to be decrying the utility/usefulness of doing a residency:scared:

....from reading the Pharmacy residency section on SDN, it seemed all peachy keen, they gave mostly the upside! :confused:
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How many of the ones "decrying" have actually done a residency? :idea: Overall, I've seen only one or two people who've actually completed a residency on this forum since I've been coming here that have more negatives to say about a residency than positives. And, none of the residency-trained pharmacists I know personally (quite a lot) regret doing one.

In the end, it's ultimately going to boil down to what YOU want to do and what YOU want to get out of your career as to whether or not you do a residency.
 
I don't exactly see the connection between a geographic restriction and the impending surplus. Just because you go to school in X state doesn't mean you're going to stay there. I think the pharm/pre-pharm student population is a lot more fluid.

If I'm opening my own private pharm school, I don't think it's gonna necessarily matter if I open the school in NJ or North Dakota...I'm still going to get overrepresentation from CA, NY, and other population centers in my student population.

Though I agree you'll get issues regarding rotation/IPPE sites, I'm curious to see how that plays out at CNCP seeing as Touro and UOP are in their backyards, and Touro has that 2+2 thing so you've got two simultaneous classes on rotation instead of one (so that's like having 1.5 schools in the area). I'm sure the southern schools have rotation sites set up in northern california.
 
ffpickle said:
Everyone in this thread seems to be decrying the utility/usefulness of doing a residency:scared:

....from reading the Pharmacy residency section on SDN, it seemed all peachy keen, they gave mostly the upside! :confused:
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That person hasnt even graduated. I love it when students tell everyone how it is in the real world. .....:laugh: They have no clue
 
Confetti: I was referring to hospitals and agencies within a state recruiting from in-state pharmacy schools. Say a state has no in-state pharmacy schools. Recruitment of professionals would have to be based off of neighboring states. I just figured it would make sense for such a state to have a new pharmacy school pop up to address something like this; it wouldn't be a bad idea. There's no guaranteeing that the students will remain in the state but that should make recruitment easier by allowing agencies to seek students already congregated in one school rather than spreading out far and wide.

Don't get me wrong; agencies will still seek out of state students who they see as a great fit for them and there would be plenty of students who are flexible enough to fit these types of situations. I just think that this situation makes a lot more sense than schools opening in Florida, California, New Jersey, and other states basically saturated with pharmacists.
 
KARM12 said:
Agreed. This is a major problem with all these schools opening up...a lack of quality rotation sites and quality preceptors to take students. Taking students is a lot of work for a preceptor. The Chicago area is a great example were the two established programs (UIC has been around forever, Midwestern almost 20 yrs) sometimes have trouble placing students for rotations. All the major hospitals already take a large number of students from one or both of these schools. I can't possibly see how they can take anymore. Plus these new schools don't have any alumni ties at this time making it harder to find preceptors for these students. It was a horrible idea to open up an another school in an already saturated market.

The last school that opened in IL prior Southern IL had no impact on the other schools. It was a completely different market and there was a need there (the school is like a 5-6 hr drive south of Chicago and there is a huge lack of pharmacists in Southern/Central IL).

I honestly don't see where all these students are going to go for rotations. It is very scary...
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SIUE is right near St. Louis.
UIC has been around for 150 years. I thought Midwestern has been around for about 25 years.
For UIC students, UIC is one of the largest sites. Everyone does at least one rotation either at the hospital or clinics. The second biggest site is Jesse Brown VA. Both those sites are closed to non-UIC pharmacy students.
Illinois did a survey on its pharmacist shortage a couple of years ago, about 2005. At that point, Illinois was short about 300-400 pharmacists. Most of those open positions were out of the Chicago area.
I heard that Roosevelt wants to open a new pharmacy school. We all know, :laugh:, what a "fine" institution that is.
 
ffpickle said:
What evidence to we have of this? Won't they simply hire the cheapest licensed pharmacist? It is a business after all.

AAMC & AMA have control over the number of medical schools opening, which is why so many off-shore medical schools have opened (and some have even closed since).
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Well if there will be oversupply of pharmacists, there are several consequences:

First of all, the salaries might fall or stay the same. They cannot fall by too much because then pharmacists with huge loans will not be accepting the offers (since they won't be able to pay their loans back) and eventually people will not be enrolling to pharmacy schools leading back again to pharmacy shortage. Shortage is not profitable for chains. I think most likely the salaries will probably stay the same but they will not be growing (maybe not even growing with inflation rate). However, you will have oversupply of all these pharmacists graduating from both established schools and newly opened ones. I know the demand is growing due to baby boomers but with the economy that we have right now, new pharmacy school popping up on every single corner, new technology, and downsizing of hospitals - supply of pharmacists will be way higher than demand for them. So when the chains will be hiring people - they will have a wide choice of pharmacists: the ones graduated from established schools and the ones from D'Whatevervilles. Who do you think they will hire? Many people have already addressed the educational quality or more so the lack of it at the new schools. No chain wants to deal with any lawsuits, so from the wide choice they have they will rather hire a pharmacist from established school because in their minds there is less chance of mistakes with these employees (since these employees have better education).

Ok, these were my 5 cents. I was econ minor in undergrad so take it with grain of salt - you might want to find an econ major who could draw you graphs and do a little more advanced analysis than this ;)
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
Uh...dude, the PCAT is graded on a percentile basis. It's the same no matter how "hard" it is. If someone took it in 2003 and they got an 85...against the same people on a different test...they'd more than likely still be in the 85th percentile...
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Duuuuuuude bra dude man totally bra dude, I don't think it's the same. If you took the test in 2003 your percentile was based off an older test group than the current one. So, if an 85% composite in 2003 is supposed to be a 85% in 2009, then why do you think they scaled the scores back so an 85% in 2007 is now an 80% in 09? Doesn't add up.

Let me add to the new school list for 2010:

Concordia-Wisconsin-projects a class size of 300.

Presbyterian College-NC

University of South Florida
 
RutgersEMSOP10 said:
you seems very angry; if you have gotten into one of the "established" schools like you say, I'm not sure why this convo upsets you...? look, I'm still in school, but I am much farther along than you are and I can tell you, you have NO idea. You know nothing about anything when it comes to pharmacy practice or the profession - because you have not lived it. I can't even express to you how much I have learned in the last 3 years about phamacy as a whole. So you would do well to step down off of your spiteful pedastal and LISTEN to what people in the profession are telling you.

If you have gotten into pharmacy school, the reality is that you will soon not be "pre-pharmacy." Apparently, you prepharmers (in general) are evry sensitive about this. But in 5-6 years, when your having difficulty scheduling rotations, waiting in line for hours to put your name on the list to interview for a residency/fellowiship, or unable to find a retail position in your home state maybe you will see that the pharmacy "clown college" boom has taken away a chunk of your livilhood.

Oh, and if you can't understand the PCAT grading scale and the fact that it's percentile, well - good luck in your kinetics courses. The very fact that it's graded in percentile accounts for any difficulty changes; if the test WAS easier 3 years ago (when I took it - Jan 2006), people did better - i.e. percentiles shifted and you had to do EVEN better (raw score-wise) the get a higher percentile...the scoring is not static

And also, yes, generally increasing applicants would increase selectivity and therefore student quality. But not if supply (i.e. spaces available) increases at a higher rate than applicants. Take econ yet?
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Senior Rutgers,

I agree that too many schools are opening up, but what I'm saying is that new schools are not solely accepting the bottom of the barrel.

Sure, flame D'Youville and UNE in spite of more new programs, but assuming the programs will be total garbage isn't rational. Both schools have been around for over 100 years, both host other health profession schools, and UNE has a med school which I'm sure would help contribute to rotation spots, that and the fact that it's in Maine were there probably is enough spots to go around. D'Youville, on the other hand, may have to scrap for spots.
 
genesis09 said:
SIUE is right near St. Louis.
For UIC students, UIC is one of the largest sites. Everyone does at least one rotation either at the hospital or clinics.
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I thought everyone everywhere had to do at least one hospital rotation. If not, there's one easy way to make it more difficult to open new pharmacy schools: make hospital and rotations other than retail a requirement. Do that and change to the two years of classes/two of rotations curriculum like med school.
 
  • If I was in college today, I would not be applying to pharmacy schools.
  • If I was in pharmacy school today, I would be applying for a residency.
  • If I was in retail pharmacy today, I would be looking for a way out.
Just My Opinion.
 
bigpharmD said:
That person hasnt even graduated. I love it when students tell everyone how it is in the real world. .....:laugh: They have no clue
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Interesting. So a person can't acquire a real world perspective unless they graduate pharm school? Is therapeutics and kinetics also a pre-req in order to discuss the saturated job market? Why not try and appreciate a different perspective even if it may be incorrect.
 
atticus27 said:
Duuuuuuude bra dude man totally bra dude, I don't think it's the same. If you took the test in 2003 your percentile was based off an older test group than the current one. So, if an 85% composite in 2003 is supposed to be a 85% in 2009, then why do you think they scaled the scores back so an 85% in 2007 is now an 80% in 09? Doesn't add up.

Let me add to the new school list for 2010:

Concordia-Wisconsin-projects a class size of 300.

Presbyterian College-NC

University of South Florida
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please provide a source

also, notice, i haven't flamed anyone...
 
atticus27 said:
Interesting. So a person can't acquire a real world perspective unless they graduate pharm school? Is therapeutics and kinetics also a pre-req in order to discuss the saturated job market? Why not try and appreciate a different perspective even if it may be incorrect.
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Because it's hard to appreciate incorrect perspectives. Because perspectives from people who's done it are more better.

It's always amusing for parents when people with no children try to tell them how to raise children.
 
atticus27 said:
Duuuuuuude bra dude man totally bra dude, I don't think it's the same. If you took the test in 2003 your percentile was based off an older test group than the current one. So, if an 85% composite in 2003 is supposed to be a 85% in 2009, then why do you think they scaled the scores back so an 85% in 2007 is now an 80% in 09? Doesn't add up.
Click to expand...

It's impossible to know how one group would fare on the other test an vice versa. If they actually do "scale" the scores back (I've never heard of this...of course, I don't care, anyway), they are in error and not using quality statistics. If I had to guess, it's to make people retake the test.

Come back in a few years, assuming you make it into the 2nd or 3rd year of pharmacy school, and go through that same logic after you take a biomedical literature evaluation class. You'll see the error in your logic. There is this concept called "crossover" that would be required to compare the two cohorts satisfactorily. In this case, there is no such crossover. To say that an 85 percentile in '03 is the equivalent to an 80 in '09 is fallacious.

Dude.
 
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Allure said:
I've talked to a few directors and they told me that even though the job description (clinical pharmacist) doesn't require a residency, they won't hire anyone without one.
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Here's what UPMC wants for a unit based clinical pharmacist (you can look it up on the job search on their website):

Basic Qualifications
-Bachelor of Science degree or Pharm D from an accredited school of pharmacy required.
-Two years of experience in hospital pharmacy or completion of a one year accredited residency program required.
-Must possess good written and verbal communication skills, must work well independently, and demonstrate leadership in their current position.
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So in Pittsburgh, one year of residency = two years of hospital pharmacy experience. Honestly, to me, it hardly seems worth it. However, it seems like PGY2 residencies are the point of real differentiation. That extra year appears to really be a separator. If you want to be an ID pharmacist...you NEED a PGY2 residency, period.
 
so, here is the speculation for schools that might be opening for 2010....

The University of Maryland Eastern Shores
Drexel
Farleigh Dickinson
D' Youville College
Husson University
Concordia-Wisconsin-projects a class size of 300.
Presbyterian College-NC
University of South Florida


Here are the current schools that are not fully accredited and have not even started pumping out new grads yet.....


Belmont TN -------------------------------Pre-Candidate**
Calilfornia Northstate CA -------------------Pre-Candidate**
Charleston WV---------------------------- Candidate**
Chicago State IL --------------------------Pre-Candidate**
East Tennessee State TN ------------------Candidate**
Findlay OH --------------------------------Candidate**
Harding, University of AR -------------------Pre-Candidate**
Hawaii at Hilo HI ---------------------------Candidate**
Incarnate Word TX ------------------------Candidate**
Lipscomb TN ------------------------------Pre-Candidate**
New England, University of ME -------------No ACPE Status to Date
NEOUCOP OH ------------------------------Candidate**
Notre Dame of Maryland*** MD ------------No ACPE Status to Date
Pacific U. (OR) OR -------------------------Candidate**
Regis*** CO------------------------------ No ACPE Status to Date
Southern Illinois Edwardsville IL -------------Candidate**
Sullivan *** KY ----------------------------PreCandidate
Texas A&M - Kingsville TX -------------------Candidate**
Thomas Jefferson *** PA------------------- Pre-Candidate**
Touro (CA) CA -----------------------------Candidate**
Touro (NY) NY -----------------------------Pre-Candidate**
Union TN ----------------------------------Pre-Candidate**


So.... this is a possible number of 30 new schools that will have opened in the last 5 years. How many will open up for 2011? 2012? Is it 4, 5, 6 new schools every year?

We don't even know how the market is going to react to all of the new schools, and they are still opening more every year. It is out of hand. We are reaching JD territory opening this many new schools.

It seems like the best way to make money in pharmacy is to open your own private pharmd diploma business, charge $150,000 for the degree, and watch the value of the degree fall apart in the next decade. It looks like a bubble to me.
 
ItsOverZyvox said:
  • If I was in college today, I would not be applying to pharmacy schools.
  • If I was in pharmacy school today, I would be applying for a residency.
  • If I was in retail pharmacy today, I would be looking for a way out.
Just My Opinion.
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What would you recommend for someone who has already been accepted and should be able to finish with about $50K invested in the degree?
 
atticus27 said:
Interesting. So a person can't acquire a real world perspective unless they graduate pharm school? Is therapeutics and kinetics also a pre-req in order to discuss the saturated job market? Why not try and appreciate a different perspective even if it may be incorrect.
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No you cant...simple answer. You have no clue what life in the real world is like unless you are a non-trad who has had a previous career. Any grad school gives you the "basics" of what you need to be successfull and that is it.
 
ItsOverZyvox said:
MBA and a residency.
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God Damn it I have already been in school for 5 years getting my bachelor's degree. Would be 4 years getting the PharmD, a year of residency, and two years to get an MBA. Grand total of 12 years in school. Awesome.

The RPh's at work making 100K with 5 years of school and no debt do not realize how well they have it, and how screwed future PharmDs could end up.
 
BavarianMWE46 said:
God Damn it I have already been in school for 5 years getting my bachelor's degree. Would be 4 years getting the PharmD, a year of residency, and two years to get an MBA. Grand total of 12 years in school. Awesome.

The RPh's at work making 100K with 5 years of school and no debt do not realize how well they have it, and how screwed future PharmDs could end up.
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AHHAHHH the root of all evil.....
 
BavarianMWE46 said:
God Damn it I have already been in school for 5 years getting my bachelor's degree. Would be 4 years getting the PharmD, a year of residency, and two years to get an MBA. Grand total of 12 years in school. Awesome.

The RPh's at work making 100K with 5 years of school and no debt do not realize how well they have it, and how screwed future PharmDs could end up.
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You could get an MBA after residency while working. Look at it this way, how old will be you in 7 years after you've earned PharmD/MBA/residency?

And how old will you be in 7 years after only PharmD?

Hmmm...same age.. yet which option do you think will help your cause?

Choose wisely.
 
bigpharmD said:
No you cant...simple answer. You have no clue what life in the real world is like unless you are a non-trad who has had a previous career. Any grad school gives you the "basics" of what you need to be successfull and that is it.
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:smuggrin:
 
Put a pharmacy residency in one hand and a doctorate (beyond PharmD) in the other hand and see which one adds more weight to a PharmD.


'nuff said.
 
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