Your criteria for ranking programs...any regrets?

[Patho_logical]

Hey everyone, recently started posting here. I'm an AMG heading into pathology (unless all this talk about the poor job market scares me into primary care) and was wondering how people who have gone through the match felt about their ranking of programs. I have applied to almost all programs in my region of the country (Southeast) and am having a hard time deciding what to base my rank list on.

One place I interviewed is my home institution. That makes it comfortable. Another is in the mountains of Tennessee...being an outdoors enthusiast, I would like that. I really got along with the people at one program in particular and the facilities were incredible (but it's in a city I don't expect to enjoy living in). Still another place has people connected to my undergrad and med school institutions in a locale close to beaches and other things.

So my main Q is: what did you base your rank list on most heavily and did you wish at any point that you had done it differently?

Side Q: how much weight do you give the "pathologists won't have jobs" stuff? (Saw a post from this month in my own small home town for a private path group position...)

Just wanting a few opinions based off real experience. Thanks a lot.

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[Tissue issue]

Hey everyone, recently started posting here. I'm an AMG heading into pathology (unless all this talk about the poor job market scares me into primary care) and was wondering how people who have gone through the match felt about their ranking of programs. I have applied to almost all programs in my region of the country (Southeast) and am having a hard time deciding what to base my rank list on.

One place I interviewed is my home institution. That makes it comfortable. Another is in the mountains of Tennessee...being an outdoors enthusiast, I would like that. I really got along with the people at one program in particular and the facilities were incredible (but it's in a city I don't expect to enjoy living in). Still another place has people connected to my undergrad and med school institutions in a locale close to beaches and other things.

So my main Q is: what did you base your rank list on most heavily and did you wish at any point that you had done it differently?

Side Q: how much weight do you give the "pathologists won't have jobs" stuff? (Saw a post from this month in my own small home town for a private path group position...)

Just wanting a few opinions based off real experience. Thanks a lot.

Could I please ask you a few questions- I think in a way they are my answer. And please believe me that MANY people on this forum would be interested in your replies.

1. What did the pathology residents and fellows at your institution tell you about our job market?

2. What did the pathology chairperson and/or program director at your institution tell you about our job market?

3. Have you spoken to junior academic faculty and community pathologists in your area about the current state of affairs regarding our specialty? What did they say?

 

[Patho_logical]

Could I please ask you a few questions- I think in a way they are my answer. And please believe me that MANY people on this forum would be interested in your replies.

1. What did the pathology residents and fellows at your institution tell you about our job market?

2. What did the pathology chairperson and/or program director at your institution tell you about our job market?

3. Have you spoken to junior academic faculty and community pathologists in your area about the current state of affairs regarding our specialty? What did they say?

1. I got somewhat mixed signals about things from residents. At least one I know of is finishing this year and going straight into private practice (without a fellowship...somewhat encouraging). All the others are going into some fellowship (informatics, a couple surg paths). So I get that there are options to at least keep getting some sort of paycheck while searching/hoping for a job. I know one of the PGY-2's seemed quite concerned that there are very few openings. She brought it up a good bit during my MS4 elective.

2. I didn't bring this up with the chair during my two meetings I've had with her.

3. Most of my interaction with academic faculty at my institution seems at least somewhat hopeful. They are all very laid back type of people, however. One in particular, was showing us job listings on path outlines just to help make his point that jobs were out there. But I've seen that those are pretty limited and apparently there is just a massive over supply of applicants for every opening (based off what I've read here).

I'll definitely be asking some more faculty about their feelings on this, directly and can update with their 2 cents for any interested.

I honestly wasn't that concerned about it until just yesterday after logging back on here. I was of the "do what you love" or "I can't see myself doing anything else anyway" mindset up until now. But at the end of the day, I do sort of need a paycheck to pay off some loans and whatnot...I don't feel like unemployment would be any more fun than family medicine or pediatrics. Both rotations I enjoyed along with path (admittedly, to a much lesser extent). I would LOVE to do path. But I could do something else if it meant immediate financial stability. Passion is great, but I can't pay my bills with it.

 

[BU Pathology]

Residents in my program have not had difficulty getting fellowships or subsequent jobs. Pathology leadership is worried that we are not training enough pathologists to meet the future workforce demands.

The only place where I hear that people have difficulty locating work is on this forum.

When speaking to many other program directors, department chairs and pathologists in private practice we do not know any unemployed pathologists who are competent and willing to work hard. There are some under-employed pathologists, i.e. pathologists who are working less than full time. These pathologists are working less than full time for personal reasons such as staying in a specific location for family reasons.

Anonymous postings on the internet are not a reliable source of information. Pathology is an outstanding, rewarding career and the American Board of Pathology recently approved a physician-scientist training pathway:
http://www.abpath.org/images/newsletters/2015-2ABPExaminer.pdf

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Chair and Professor of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine and Boston Medical Center

 

[icpshootyz]

Go to the most prestigious program you can get into. Choosing a residency because it's comfortable, or easy, or close to home is not the point. Your residency (and likely fellowship) is what every employer is going to look at when you apply for a job, and even what your colleagues will see in the little blurb about you on the hospital/lab website for the rest of your career. Like it or not, a famous name on your resume opens doors that won't otherwise open for you.

 

[Ishie1013]

Pathology is certainly an outstanding rewarding career. That's why I went into it, and I too, read the forum, got really freaked out, but was reassured by not putting weight in anonymous postings, which you absolutely shouldn't. I can report that I'm struggling. I can report that many of my colleagues are struggling. I can report that I'm scared and currently experiencing regret despite loving the field. We may all be gainfully employed come July and wean off our collective HCTZ prescriptions. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Patho_logical]

Thanks for all the replies so far...I appreciate the feedback very much. Also, I didn't mean to make it sound like I am looking for the easiest residency. There are places I definitely ruled out based on volume and other factors that seemed like they would limit my development. So, what I should have said was amongst programs you feel would be nearly equivalent as far as training and preparing you for a future career was there anything in particular that you wish you had considered in hindsight. Oh and happy holidays everybody.

 

[Ishie1013]

Oh, and so as not to perform a full hijack and for what my experience is worth:

One place I interviewed is my home institution. That makes it comfortable. Another is in the mountains of Tennessee...being an outdoors enthusiast, I would like that. I really got along with the people at one program in particular and the facilities were incredible (but it's in a city I don't expect to enjoy living in). Still another place has people connected to my undergrad and med school institutions in a locale close to beaches and other things.

Connections are incredibly important. If people in your program of interest are heavily involved in the community, that will likely serve you well. Watching both sides, I'm uncertain as to how beneficial it is to stay where you are versus meeting new people. It depends on how saturated the market is in your community, and how entrenched in it you would like to be. More people that know and like you will be helpful and the more people you know, the more likely one of them knows someone. It is a small community That being said, I wouldn't go to a program that has known malignant people (bad press is worse than no press) or where you think you're unlikely to thrive thus do poorly. A lot of variety in what specimens you see and handle is great so you have some confidence.

So my main Q is: what did you base your rank list on most heavily and did you wish at any point that you had done it differently?

Gut feel and resident interaction honestly, coupled with some research to make sure I wasn't going off a cliff. We'll see if that proved wise. It's really hard for me to say what I would have done differently at this point, because I wouldn't trade the people I met there for the world, and I feel well-trained, but good lord.

Side Q: how much weight do you give the "pathologists won't have jobs" stuff? (Saw a post from this month in my own small home town for a private path group position...)

A heck of a lot more than I did when I started. One question I did ask that I don't think is cheeky (because I honestly have heard others having a lot of problems; not just on the internet; every resident mixer at meetings is a combination of board hysteria and job stress) is how their former residents and fellows are doing and how much help they lend you. If they hedge, don't know, or tell you to just go to meetings, that is not a great sign. This strongly influenced my fellowship choice. Good luck. Hopefully I'll be able to put a positive spin on my own story soon.

 

[mlw03]

I think one of the less looked at factors when ranking programs for residency is what fellowships they have, and do they match your interests. Most pathology residents do one (or more) fellowship(s), and internal candidates have a huge advantage... unless you're a d-bag, in which case it's a disadvantage. Let's assume you're a decent human being and competent. In that case, if you want to do cytopath and your program has it, you have a big advantage over an external candidate who is a question mark.

To answer your main question, that is my regret. Anyone who cares to knows who I am can figure it out easily, so I'll be specific. I went into residency thinking I wanted forensic pathology training. My top two ranked programs were solid programs in cities I thought I would like, but neither had FP fellowships in that city. I got one of those programs and had a great residency experience in a city I loved living in. But I stuck with FP and had to move for one year for the fellowship. That was an enormous hassle. If I had it to do again, I would have found a compromise for residency, because in FP at least, no one care where you did residency, they care about fellowship. Who cares if you signed out GU with Epstein... I'm pretty sure that doesn't help you determine range of fire for a shotgun wound. I would have tried to find a program I was happy with in a city with a solid FP program where I thought I could live for 4-5 years, so for me that would have been Albuquerque, Minneapolis, St. Louis, Denver, Seattle, or Chicago.

While my advice is most relevant to the niche subpsecialties, I do think the overall advice is worth considering. Being able to stay in one place for all of your training has value I think.

 

[mlw03]

Residents in my program have not had difficulty getting fellowships or subsequent jobs. Pathology leadership is worried that we are not training enough pathologists to meet the future workforce demands.

The only place where I hear that people have difficulty locating work is on this forum.

When speaking to many other program directors, department chairs and pathologists in private practice we do not know any unemployed pathologists who are competent and willing to work hard. There are some under-employed pathologists, i.e. pathologists who are working less than full time. These pathologists are working less than full time for personal reasons such as staying in a specific location for family reasons.

Anonymous postings on the internet are not a reliable source of information. Pathology is an outstanding, rewarding career and the American Board of Pathology recently approved a physician-scientist training pathway:
http://www.abpath.org/images/newsletters/2015-2ABPExaminer.pdf

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Chair and Professor of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine and Boston Medical Center

While I sometimes disagree with Dr. Remick, I generally agree with the above part I bolded. It's true in western Canada too. The good path residents I know in western Canada all find jobs or fellowships, easily, starting in the low 300s.

I'll repeat a line I've said before. If you're of average competence, can speak and write English well, and are willing to move to where a job is, you should not have a problem finding work in pathology in North America.

 

[Ishie1013]

I think one of the less looked at factors when ranking programs for residency is what fellowships they have, and do they match your interests. Most pathology residents do one (or more) fellowship(s), and internal candidates have a huge advantage... unless you're a d-bag, in which case it's a disadvantage. Let's assume you're a decent human being and competent. In that case, if you want to do cytopath and your program has it, you have a big advantage over an external candidate who is a question mark.

While my advice is most relevant to the niche subpsecialties, I do think the overall advice is worth considering. Being able to stay in one place for all of your training has value I think.

I found that kind of a tough one, unless you're going for something competitive like dermpath where the home team advantage is *huge* and the competition is tough. One of the attendings advising me in residency said that I was welcome to stay on for fellowship but that I would gain greater advantage going where I am now, and I took his advice. Though the moving is a *gigantic* pain in the butt, you lose all your friends, and it adds to the "perpetual training" feeling, one of the interviews I did get was exclusively through a friend of a friend of the new PD, so I can't say my attending steered me off or was trying to get rid of me. You learn different systems, and more critically, you meet more people that know more people. It's also worth noting whether the specialty you're interested in takes internal candidates. Some are actually pretty adamant about kicking the birds out of the nest. Our hemepath guy was that way. Great guy and would give you any connection in the world, but you were not staying on to do a year more of what he figured he'd already taught you in residency.

 

[Patho_logical]

I think one of the less looked at factors when ranking programs for residency is what fellowships they have, and do they match your interests. Most pathology residents do one (or more) fellowship(s), and internal candidates have a huge advantage... unless you're a d-bag, in which case it's a disadvantage. Let's assume you're a decent human being and competent. In that case, if you want to do cytopath and your program has it, you have a big advantage over an external candidate who is a question mark.

To answer your main question, that is my regret. Anyone who cares to knows who I am can figure it out easily, so I'll be specific. I went into residency thinking I wanted forensic pathology training. My top two ranked programs were solid programs in cities I thought I would like, but neither had FP fellowships in that city. I got one of those programs and had a great residency experience in a city I loved living in. But I stuck with FP and had to move for one year for the fellowship. That was an enormous hassle. If I had it to do again, I would have found a compromise for residency, because in FP at least, no one care where you did residency, they care about fellowship. Who cares if you signed out GU with Epstein... I'm pretty sure that doesn't help you determine range of fire for a shotgun wound. I would have tried to find a program I was happy with in a city with a solid FP program where I thought I could live for 4-5 years, so for me that would have been Albuquerque, Minneapolis, St. Louis, Denver, Seattle, or Chicago.

While my advice is most relevant to the niche subpsecialties, I do think the overall advice is worth considering. Being able to stay in one place for all of your training has value I think.

Greatly appreciate the advice. FP is actually one of the sub specialties I'm most interested in (albeit with little exposure to the actual day-to-day work of a FP). That was one concern I had, people say the prestige or name of the place you trained is important, but for many places (some more prestigious than others) fellowship opportunities are somewhat limited. So you end up going away to a completely different place to finish up your training...and then you kind of lose connections in the area you might want to work in when it's all said and done. Good point about being an internal (or at least local and very well known) candidate when you start applying for jobs.

 

[Euchromatin]

So my main Q is: what did you base your rank list on most heavily and did you wish at any point that you had done it differently?

Side Q: how much weight do you give the "pathologists won't have jobs" stuff? (Saw a post from this month in my own small home town for a private path group position...)

After narrowing it down to places that got a good volume and variety of cases and had a workflow that would allow me to see and take responsibility for my own cases (without excessive non-educational grossing), I weighted my rank list based primarily on location and how I felt I fit into the overall culture/feel of the department. It was important to me to have attendings that were easy to get along with and had the time and willingness to teach, residents I could be friends with and a general culture of valuing/emphasizing resident teaching. I felt that, for residency, these things were more important than a prestigious name or an abundance of research opportunities. I know this would depend greatly on how the workflow is structured as well as personal learning style, but I also desired a program with general (as opposed to subspecialized) surg path sign out and a program that did NOT have a ton of subspecialty fellows (I know some fellows can be a great resource for resident trainees, but this can vary greatly depending on the quality of the fellow(s) and working with a fellow generally results, in my experience, in the resident having fewer cases they take direct responsibility for, often getting less interesting/challenging cases overall and getting less direct teaching time from attending(s)). 4 years is also a significant portion of time to live somewhere you hate and/or away from family (if you like seeing them regularly), so I think location is a significant factor too. I have zero regrets about my residency training.

I tend to agree with most of the points Ishie1013 made regarding fellowships. It will depend a lot on your particular situation and interests, but, generally speaking, unless you already have your eye on a super competitive specialty like dermpath AND the department you want to the fellowship in typically takes internal candidates, I think there are a lot of advantages to going to a different place (get to see how a different department functions, how different people would sign out cases, meet lots of new people, etc.). I would say that prestige of the fellowship institution (and/or the individual fellowship director) becomes more important in fellowship, as whatever specialty training you get during fellowship is more than likely going to be the biggest "selling point" when marketing yourself for your first job. It is also a lot easier to put up with a less desirable location and/or more stressful environment when you know it will only last for one year.

I don't think the job market is quite as bad as some regular posters in this forum claim, but it certainly isn't fantastic either. In my experience, the two factors that seem to have the most effect on whether fellows got a job were 1 - passing boards and 2 - refusal to move away from/look for work outside of a specific, desired geographic location. Of note, pretty much all the fellows I know have at least reasonably good English and almost all were not obviously lacking in basic social skills. Interestingly, the people I know/know of that failed a part of their boards on the first try, but then re-took that part ASAP and passed on the second try were able to get jobs. I also know of a couple people that put off taking boards (i.e. initially took them at a later point in training than most people do it at the end of 4th year of residency) and have now failed repeatedly (not recommended). All the fellows that I know personally that passed their boards and were willing to move have jobs. Those that were not willing to move (due to spouse's job/other family reasons) are all doing second/third fellowships in the area to kill time, hoping that something will open up. I know a handful of people that did find work in their geographic location of interest, but their situations seem to be due to a combination of extremely dedicated networking (I also know of situations where connections did not help due to a significant change in the financial situation or leadership of a group) and/or very lucky timing OR they took a really undesirable junior faculty-type position (and were still treated like a trainee by most of the group). If you go into pathology, do NOT count on getting your first job in a specific city (or even state/region) that you want to live in.

 

[Tiki]

I don't think the job market is quite as bad as some regular posters in this forum claim, but it certainly isn't fantastic either. In my experience, the two factors that seem to have the most effect on whether fellows got a job were 1 - passing boards and 2 - refusal to move away from/look for work outside of a specific, desired geographic location. Of note, pretty much all the fellows I know have at least reasonably good English and almost all were not obviously lacking in basic social skills. Interestingly, the people I know/know of that failed a part of their boards on the first try, but then re-took that part ASAP and passed on the second try were able to get jobs. I also know of a couple people that put off taking boards (i.e. initially took them at a later point in training than most people do it at the end of 4th year of residency) and have now failed repeatedly (not recommended). All the fellows that I know personally that passed their boards and were willing to move have jobs. Those that were not willing to move (due to spouse's job/other family reasons) are all doing second/third fellowships in the area to kill time, hoping that something will open up. I know a handful of people that did find work in their geographic location of interest, but their situations seem to be due to a combination of extremely dedicated networking (I also know of situations where connections did not help due to a significant change in the financial situation or leadership of a group) and/or very lucky timing OR they took a really undesirable junior faculty-type position (and were still treated like a trainee by most of the group). If you go into pathology, do NOT count on getting your first job in a specific city (or even state/region) that you want to live in.

Completely agree with above.

There are some posters on this board who fall into two extremes --those that say the job market is so dismal that no one should go into pathology, and those who say everything is rosy and no one has trouble finding a job.

I believe the reality is in the middle (and thankfully I think others agree!) . The job market is not great, but just about everyone ends up finding a job,. I went to a good residency program, good fellowship program and still had to stress over the job situation. Thankfully, I ended up with a job doing subspecialty signout in the general location I was looking for, but I got lucky. It's not unsual for folks with geographic restrictions to have a tougher time in the job market.

And I can't agree enough about how helpful networking is. I am not a good networker, I'm on the shy side and find it hard to talk to people I don't know. This can hurt you when looking for a job! Be proactive and schmooze folks.

If you love pathology, I would not let the job market stop you from pursuing the specialty, as long as you are aware that you may have not end up in your first choice location. But the good thing is that once you have a few years of experience, the job market is much better (I have folks pursuing me now! which was definitely NOT the case upon graduation of fellowship)

 

[Patho_logical]

Completely agree with above.

There are some posters on this board who fall into two extremes --those that say the job market is so dismal that no one should go into pathology, and those who say everything is rosy and no one has trouble finding a job.

I believe the reality is in the middle (and thankfully I think others agree!) . The job market is not great, but just about everyone ends up finding a job,. I went to a good residency program, good fellowship program and still had to stress over the job situation. Thankfully, I ended up with a job doing subspecialty signout in the general location I was looking for, but I got lucky. It's not unsual for folks with geographic restrictions to have a tougher time in the job market.

And I can't agree enough about how helpful networking is. I am not a good networker, I'm on the shy side and find it hard to talk to people I don't know. This can hurt you when looking for a job! Be proactive and schmooze folks.

If you love pathology, I would not let the job market stop you from pursuing the specialty, as long as you are aware that you may have not end up in your first choice location. But the good thing is that once you have a few years of experience, the job market is much better (I have folks pursuing me now! which was definitely NOT the case upon graduation of fellowship)

Thanks for the encouragement and advice! This was my thought. I'm sure the job market is saturated in some areas, but I find it hard to believe such highly trained people can't find something, even if it means sub specializing in something you might not have considered, doing a fellowship just to wait for an opening, or relocating (which I'm already highly considering for residency). Cheers.

 

[coroner]

Anonymous postings on the internet are not a reliable source of information.

...but was reassured by not putting weight in anonymous postings, which you absolutely shouldn't.

Don’t be so quick to write off some of these anonymous postings. Some of them should be taken with a grain of salt or flat out ignored like anything else on an internet forum. It's up to you to filter what you read accordingly. On the other hand, there are some highly intelligent, articulate, savvy people here who’ve trained/teach at some of the top institutions in the country, that have been around for years on these forums and have words of wisdom to pass on or provide information to others about their knowledge, experiences, and insight that can be very valuable.

Go to the most prestigious program you can get into...Like it or not, a famous name on your resume opens doors that won't otherwise open for you.

I would offer an alternate perspective posted awhile back:

I havent seen any data whatsoever that shows going to program X vs. Y provides any sort of long term career advantage, likely because it doesn't...

I would focus on place you will be happy living and thus be a pleasant co-worker so the real upside in training, your relationships with fellow pathologists, is absolutely maximized to prime future job opportunities.

Dont be the guy or gal who sits at home when the rest of the class is out at happy hour, even if you dont drink.

Totally agree with this. Every applicant should make sure you go to a program where you can see yourself and be happy for four years (and possibly longer if you stay to do a fellowship).

I went to a small residency program, where most of the residents got along and got together outside of work, sometimes with attendings. It was a fun time. We had Christmas parties at an attendings house, etc.

I then went on to a fellowship in an academic center where residents hung out in cliques. It just wasnt a very friendly place.

Interestingly, the people I know/know of that failed a part of their boards on the first try, but then re-took that part ASAP and passed on the second try were able to get jobs.

I’m guessing the people that re-took that other part was CP, right? I’ve rarely heard of someone passing CP on the first try, but not AP. Usually it’s the other way around.

I also know of a couple people that put off taking boards (i.e. initially took them at a later point in training than most people do it at the end of 4th year of residency) and have now failed repeatedly (not recommended).

What happened to them out of curiosity? The odds of passing after the first attempt diminishes significantly. And non-boarded pathologists are significantly marginalized when it comes to finding a job. Probably some of the ones who come here and complain about the job market…haha

There are some posters on this board who fall into two extremes --those that say the job market is so dismal that no one should go into pathology, and those who say everything is rosy and no one has trouble finding a job. I believe the reality is in the middle (and thankfully I think others agree!) .

I’m not a centrist in this aspect nor an extremist either; but, I would definitely say I lean on the high supply low demand side. Just a few comments on this thread alone which reinforces this perception:

Go to the most prestigious program you can get into. Choosing a residency because it's comfortable, or easy, or close to home is not the point. Your residency (and likely fellowship) is what every employer is going to look at when you apply for a job, and even what your colleagues will see in the little blurb about you on the hospital/lab website for the rest of your career. Like it or not, a famous name on your resume opens doors that won't otherwise open for you.

Other specialties don’t rely on name brand recognition as much to get a good job. An orthopedic surgeon or psychiatrist could pick up a phone and go to any major city in America and have dozens of opportunities lined up without relying on a pre-eminent scholar in their field giving them a reference or having MGH on their degree.

Connections are incredibly important.

Connections help in any field; but if they’re described as “incredibly important” in reference to landing a job, it’s not exactly optimistic.

you should not have a problem finding work in pathology in North America.

If you go into pathology, do NOT count on getting your first job in a specific city (or even state/region) that you want to live in.

Translation: going to the Alaskan peninsula or Texarkana, AR may be where you end up for your first job.

I can report that I'm struggling. I can report that many of my colleagues are struggling.

Enough said...

 

[Euchromatin]

I’m guessing the people that re-took that other part was CP, right? I’ve rarely heard of someone passing CP on the first try, but not AP. Usually it’s the other way around.

What happened to them out of curiosity? The odds of passing after the first attempt diminishes significantly. And non-boarded pathologists are significantly marginalized when it comes to finding a job. Probably some of the ones who come here and complain about the job market…haha

I know of people who failed CP but passed AP on their first attempt (agree, this seems to be more common), but I also know of someone that failed AP but passed CP on their first attempt.

I'm honestly not entirely sure what happened to those that failed multiple times, unfortunately.

 

[pathperson]

My post is long, but I hope someone will find it helpful. I am a fellow who just got a job in the fall 2015. Here is my story and thoughts:

Something that is highly relevant to the job market discussion that is rarely mentioned here is the issue of TIMING. If every path in your city or program adores you and would like to spend all their time with you each and every day, but they do not have a NEED for a new person in the group or your skill set, you will NOT get a job there. No one is in the position to just create a job for you bc they like you. This is not how anyone runs a business. Also it is not always the paths (or even a physician at all) who makes the hiring decisions. If you work as a hospital employee, or some other arrangement, making all the paths love you is a great start, but it is not possible to kiss every behind on earth in hopes of getting a job.

Other thoughts:
From talking to friends in practice in other specialties, the most desirable cities are tough for ALL DOCS to find jobs. Places like San Fran, Boulder, Austin, Portland, to name a few....lots of people want to live in those places, in all areas of employment inside and out of medicine.

Every doc thinks their specialty is going to hell in a hand basket. Don't believe me, ask around. A lot of other docs are burned out and tired and hate dealing with patients. Don't believe me, ask around.

I did 2 fellowships at my same place where I did residency: surg path and cytopath. I am glad I did both. My situation is very different in that I am waiting for my spouse to cash out of a business he created, so that we can move. So my motivation for doing 2 fellowships was partly based on wanting additional training, partly based on my family situation.

The only people I can think of who are truly restricted to where they live are the divorced parents who live in states where a judge can tell both parents what counties you are allowed to live in if you want custody of your kids. In those situations, if you want to move, you have a BIG problem. The ONLY people I know who have had job catastrophes in pathology were 2 female paths in this position. One commutes 2.5 hours each way for a fellowship, every day, and the other gave up after fellowship and opened a pain clinic bc there were no jobs in the very small radius where she was allowed to live.

If that situation does not describe you, please consider moving for your job. You spend a LOT of time at work. You need to find a group you want to work with. A lot of groups give a LOT of time off after you have been there a while, and you can go visit family and take trips. Working in a bad place because it is in a great city is a terrible idea. You will hate your life daily.

For my job search, it seemed to me that if the job market was so horrid, I should start early. So the first few weeks of my 2nd fellowship, I got my CV in shape, and started sending it out in early August. I do not care for academia, so all academic jobs were out. I applied widely to every private place (even if you don't want to live there, think about just seeing what is out there in the world) to a job posted online if it applied to me. If it had ANY requirements I did not meet, I did not apply. I also contacted one group in my (large, very very medically oriented, hot and humid) hometown and asked for a job. I got a callback from them about 6-8 weeks later. The private groups located in the closest desirable city to my training program are known to be....pretty mean people. I could have knocked on doors and begged, but I did not. I talked to a few people, was ignored by a few people, and chose to move on. My institution wants me to stay, but they cannot move fast enough for me. They told me they would not know anything until mid-spring. That was sad, but in the end I think it is for the best. I told my superiors I cannot turn down these other offers and hope they will offer me a job, and they understood but are displeased the institution would not move more quickly. The position would be semi-academic hospital employment and it is a junior faculty position.

I can tell you that the second I quit trying to stay in my current place, my mental state and overall level of happiness improved drastically. Once I accepted my job, I was over the moon. I can come to work every day and focus purely on training and patient care, and not on wanting something from everyone around me that they are not able to commit to in my time-frame. I feel like a grown-up and not a kid asking for stuff. It is a big difference in my internal well-being.

I am tired of all the advice to kiss butt every minute of every day to find a job in path. It is not necessary. I went to meetings. I tried to meet people. I did not ever make a connection at a meeting that resulted in a job. WHY? bc of TIMING. No need, no job. I felt badly about myself a lot that I was not on every committee, kissing every butt that walked by, etc. But too much focus on this is not a good use of your time. Get good training. That is the purpose of residency. Learn how to make diagnoses. Make sure everyone at your institution is happy with your performance, even if your place is not "prestigious" bc they may offer you a job, or they may leave themselves and offer you something in their new place. And of course you need them for recommendations.

Ok here are my outcomes:
started getting offers for interviews pretty quickly. Got 3 phone interviews within 2-3 weeks, which led to 2 in-person interviews. The 3rd place called back and said they were not in a rush as much as they had thought, and were on a different timeline.

First interview: I wound up taking this job. The town I will move to is VERY close to home (2 hour drive from my hometown, 5 hours from current home). They had 2 open positions, in 2 different cities. The one I did not pick was AP only. I would choose 3-4 areas of AP (cyto being one of mine) and would never sign out anything else again. Sounds like heaven, but I wanted to have broader skills. The 2nd position in this same group was in another town (group is huge) and I would be succession planning for current lab medical director. Mix of all AP specimens + CP. I would become lab director. They currently have the lab director and a locums person they do not want to keep. Once the head guy retired there, I would be able to hire a new person under me. The financial details of this offer came several weeks later.

Second interview. Far far away, very cold. Hospital employment, very high starting salary, I would be the youngest of 3 paths. I liked the place a lot. I would be a bit babied, which is fine I guess. They loved me and hinted they wanted to make offer. I said I wanted to wait to hear back from 1st place. The second place kept interviewing, and they made offer to someone with more experience over the next few weeks. The HR person said it was a tough choice for them even with my lack of experience. They did present me with a terms sheet during the interview at this place so I knew the starting salary, even though they ended up not making me an offer.

In the midst of all this, the group from my hometown called me. They made me an offer over the phone for a job in AP. I knew one of the paths casually from med school where he was a resident. The job was cytopath only, opening a new cyto lab and reading mostly paps. They wanted me to bring in new business and offered a decent base plus % of new business. It was in my hometown, so it was hard to turn down. I turned it down bc of the lack of specimen variety, it is a relatively new group and they did not have the backup cytopath person available that I think I would need.

In the end, I accepted the job offer from the large private group in the town where I will become lab medical director. It seemed the best use of all my hard-won skills. Contract is 3 years, no non-compete, and salary negotiation went favorably (favorably enough). Partnership is possible but no guarantees. There was mention when I accepted the offer that this is an "anchor position" in the group as the lead person in my city, and I hope that means partnership is a real possibility.

I did NOT find it difficult AT ALL to get phone interviews. My response rate was interesting. The mega labs showed me almost zero love. ZERO. Mega labs within the state seem to want more experience, not sure. The private group I accepted with told me they have a policy of not interviewing any FMGs. This obviously worked in my favor. I was worried about being a young female with a child, that people would discriminate and not want to hire me. I detected no anti-female attitudes where I interviewed in person and on the phone. Several groups called back while I had my 2 offers on the table, and a few more afterwards. The hard part was not getting a job. The hard part (REALLY HARD) is getting 2 job offers on the table at exactly the same time and then carefully considering each offer, while not making anyone mad if you need to ask for a few more days to consider.

Totals:
# Applications: 34
# Callbacks: 8
# Phone interviews: 4
# in-person interviews: 2
# offers: 2 (3 if you count the 2 that were within the same group)

My CV:
American MD
AP/CP boarded on first try
all Steps passed on 1st try
high-volume residency with few residents (60k surgicals, 12 residents), lots of hands-on work, dictate own cases from day 1, no sharing of cases with other trainees.
high call load
Fellowships: general SP+ Cytopath (same place as residency)
Butts kissed at meetings: minimal
Publications: 0

I hope this helps someone out there. I don't get it when I read that people are looking for jobs in December and they are shocked they don't have anything by Feb. I started sending out in August and I had 2 job offers and 1 signed contract by mid-October. If the job market sucks so bad, you need to start looking early. I continued to get calls after I signed my contract, but I can't imagine a better outcome than what I got considering we were already moving.

It was a tough experience, but pathology was right for me. I knew that all along. It is vastly more interesting to me than all other fields of medicine. I mean there is no contest. Pave the road you want to walk on. Be the person you would want to hire. Reading this forum for years I felt badly about myself for not going to a "big name" or publishing a ton, but I was busy with lots of actual service work and it was not my priority. I felt badly for not being a sycophant and not knowing every cool person at the meetings, though I was doing my best to meet people. I thought I would never get a job, certainly not a good job. I am not in the "real world" yet, and I will let you all know how it goes, but so far I can say it has gone pretty ok. If they don't make me partner, I can leave. You can always leave if you are not happy.

Is the job market tight? YES. It is impossible? NO. Apply smartly, and for God's sake focus on your training and not on butt kissing. Unless you are really good at it, and attend a program that is "big name" and lends itself well to butt kissing. If you are at a big-name place, you might have an easier time getting a job. I'll never know and frankly did not think it was the Armageddon I had been expecting. My spouse said as much during the process, that the bark for all these years was much worse than the bite when I was actually looking. Make a decision early on if you want academia or private. This choice should be pretty clear to you if you are honest with yourself about what you like to spend your time doing. The job I took is challenging, but a good fit for me, though I realize it is not everyone's dream job. There is a huge variety of jobs in pathology, not even among all the different areas but also within "general pathology" like myself. Think carefully about your daily duties and where you would be at your best.

Best of luck to everyone.

 

[deleted647155]

My post is long, but I hope someone will find it helpful. I am a fellow who just got a job in the fall 2015. Here is my story and thoughts:

Something that is highly relevant to the job market discussion that is rarely mentioned here is the issue of TIMING. If every path in your city or program adores you and would like to spend all their time with you each and every day, but they do not have a NEED for a new person in the group or your skill set, you will NOT get a job there. No one is in the position to just create a job for you bc they like you. This is not how anyone runs a business. Also it is not always the paths (or even a physician at all) who makes the hiring decisions. If you work as a hospital employee, or some other arrangement, making all the paths love you is a great start, but it is not possible to kiss every behind on earth in hopes of getting a job.

Other thoughts:
From talking to friends in practice in other specialties, the most desirable cities are tough for ALL DOCS to find jobs. Places like San Fran, Boulder, Austin, Portland, to name a few....lots of people want to live in those places, in all areas of employment inside and out of medicine.

Every doc thinks their specialty is going to hell in a hand basket. Don't believe me, ask around. A lot of other docs are burned out and tired and hate dealing with patients. Don't believe me, ask around.

I did 2 fellowships at my same place where I did residency: surg path and cytopath. I am glad I did both. My situation is very different in that I am waiting for my spouse to cash out of a business he created, so that we can move. So my motivation for doing 2 fellowships was partly based on wanting additional training, partly based on my family situation.

The only people I can think of who are truly restricted to where they live are the divorced parents who live in states where a judge can tell both parents what counties you are allowed to live in if you want custody of your kids. In those situations, if you want to move, you have a BIG problem. The ONLY people I know who have had job catastrophes in pathology were 2 female paths in this position. One commutes 2.5 hours each way for a fellowship, every day, and the other gave up after fellowship and opened a pain clinic bc there were no jobs in the very small radius where she was allowed to live.

If that situation does not describe you, please consider moving for your job. You spend a LOT of time at work. You need to find a group you want to work with. A lot of groups give a LOT of time off after you have been there a while, and you can go visit family and take trips. Working in a bad place because it is in a great city is a terrible idea. You will hate your life daily.

For my job search, it seemed to me that if the job market was so horrid, I should start early. So the first few weeks of my 2nd fellowship, I got my CV in shape, and started sending it out in early August. I do not care for academia, so all academic jobs were out. I applied widely to every private place (even if you don't want to live there, think about just seeing what is out there in the world) to a job posted online if it applied to me. If it had ANY requirements I did not meet, I did not apply. I also contacted one group in my (large, very very medically oriented, hot and humid) hometown and asked for a job. I got a callback from them about 6-8 weeks later. The private groups located in the closest desirable city to my training program are known to be....pretty mean people. I could have knocked on doors and begged, but I did not. I talked to a few people, was ignored by a few people, and chose to move on. My institution wants me to stay, but they cannot move fast enough for me. They told me they would not know anything until mid-spring. That was sad, but in the end I think it is for the best. I told my superiors I cannot turn down these other offers and hope they will offer me a job, and they understood but are displeased the institution would not move more quickly. The position would be semi-academic hospital employment and it is a junior faculty position.

I can tell you that the second I quit trying to stay in my current place, my mental state and overall level of happiness improved drastically. Once I accepted my job, I was over the moon. I can come to work every day and focus purely on training and patient care, and not on wanting something from everyone around me that they are not able to commit to in my time-frame. I feel like a grown-up and not a kid asking for stuff. It is a big difference in my internal well-being.

I am tired of all the advice to kiss butt every minute of every day to find a job in path. It is not necessary. I went to meetings. I tried to meet people. I did not ever make a connection at a meeting that resulted in a job. WHY? bc of TIMING. No need, no job. I felt badly about myself a lot that I was not on every committee, kissing every butt that walked by, etc. But too much focus on this is not a good use of your time. Get good training. That is the purpose of residency. Learn how to make diagnoses. Make sure everyone at your institution is happy with your performance, even if your place is not "prestigious" bc they may offer you a job, or they may leave themselves and offer you something in their new place. And of course you need them for recommendations.

Ok here are my outcomes:
started getting offers for interviews pretty quickly. Got 3 phone interviews within 2-3 weeks, which led to 2 in-person interviews. The 3rd place called back and said they were not in a rush as much as they had thought, and were on a different timeline.

First interview: I wound up taking this job. The town I will move to is VERY close to home (2 hour drive from my hometown, 5 hours from current home). They had 2 open positions, in 2 different cities. The one I did not pick was AP only. I would choose 3-4 areas of AP (cyto being one of mine) and would never sign out anything else again. Sounds like heaven, but I wanted to have broader skills. The 2nd position in this same group was in another town (group is huge) and I would be succession planning for current lab medical director. Mix of all AP specimens + CP. I would become lab director. They currently have the lab director and a locums person they do not want to keep. Once the head guy retired there, I would be able to hire a new person under me. The financial details of this offer came several weeks later.

Second interview. Far far away, very cold. Hospital employment, very high starting salary, I would be the youngest of 3 paths. I liked the place a lot. I would be a bit babied, which is fine I guess. They loved me and hinted they wanted to make offer. I said I wanted to wait to hear back from 1st place. The second place kept interviewing, and they made offer to someone with more experience over the next few weeks. The HR person said it was a tough choice for them even with my lack of experience. They did present me with a terms sheet during the interview at this place so I knew the starting salary, even though they ended up not making me an offer.

In the midst of all this, the group from my hometown called me. They made me an offer over the phone for a job in AP. I knew one of the paths casually from med school where he was a resident. The job was cytopath only, opening a new cyto lab and reading mostly paps. They wanted me to bring in new business and offered a decent base plus % of new business. It was in my hometown, so it was hard to turn down. I turned it down bc of the lack of specimen variety, it is a relatively new group and they did not have the backup cytopath person available that I think I would need.

In the end, I accepted the job offer from the large private group in the town where I will become lab medical director. It seemed the best use of all my hard-won skills. Contract is 3 years, no non-compete, and salary negotiation went favorably (favorably enough). Partnership is possible but no guarantees. There was mention when I accepted the offer that this is an "anchor position" in the group as the lead person in my city, and I hope that means partnership is a real possibility.

I did NOT find it difficult AT ALL to get phone interviews. My response rate was interesting. The mega labs showed me almost zero love. ZERO. Mega labs within the state seem to want more experience, not sure. The private group I accepted with told me they have a policy of not interviewing any FMGs. This obviously worked in my favor. I was worried about being a young female with a child, that people would discriminate and not want to hire me. I detected no anti-female attitudes where I interviewed in person and on the phone. Several groups called back while I had my 2 offers on the table, and a few more afterwards. The hard part was not getting a job. The hard part (REALLY HARD) is getting 2 job offers on the table at exactly the same time and then carefully considering each offer, while not making anyone mad if you need to ask for a few more days to consider.

Totals:
# Applications: 34
# Callbacks: 8
# Phone interviews: 4
# in-person interviews: 2
# offers: 2 (3 if you count the 2 that were within the same group)

My CV:
American MD
AP/CP boarded on first try
all Steps passed on 1st try
high-volume residency with few residents (60k surgicals, 12 residents), lots of hands-on work, dictate own cases from day 1, no sharing of cases with other trainees.
high call load
Fellowships: general SP+ Cytopath (same place as residency)
Butts kissed at meetings: minimal
Publications: 0

I hope this helps someone out there. I don't get it when I read that people are looking for jobs in December and they are shocked they don't have anything by Feb. I started sending out in August and I had 2 job offers and 1 signed contract by mid-October. If the job market sucks so bad, you need to start looking early. I continued to get calls after I signed my contract, but I can't imagine a better outcome than what I got considering we were already moving.

It was a tough experience, but pathology was right for me. I knew that all along. It is vastly more interesting to me than all other fields of medicine. I mean there is no contest. Pave the road you want to walk on. Be the person you would want to hire. Reading this forum for years I felt badly about myself for not going to a "big name" or publishing a ton, but I was busy with lots of actual service work and it was not my priority. I felt badly for not being a sycophant and not knowing every cool person at the meetings, though I was doing my best to meet people. I thought I would never get a job, certainly not a good job. I am not in the "real world" yet, and I will let you all know how it goes, but so far I can say it has gone pretty ok. If they don't make me partner, I can leave. You can always leave if you are not happy.

Is the job market tight? YES. It is impossible? NO. Apply smartly, and for God's sake focus on your training and not on butt kissing. Unless you are really good at it, and attend a program that is "big name" and lends itself well to butt kissing. If you are at a big-name place, you might have an easier time getting a job. I'll never know and frankly did not think it was the Armageddon I had been expecting. My spouse said as much during the process, that the bark for all these years was much worse than the bite when I was actually looking. Make a decision early on if you want academia or private. This choice should be pretty clear to you if you are honest with yourself about what you like to spend your time doing. The job I took is challenging, but a good fit for me, though I realize it is not everyone's dream job. There is a huge variety of jobs in pathology, not even among all the different areas but also within "general pathology" like myself. Think carefully about your daily duties and where you would be at your best.

Best of luck to everyone.

thank you so much, your post is so encouraging!!
i think what we have to keep in perspective on these forums is that every specialty on sdn is saying that the sky is falling down...

 

[BU Pathology]

Thank you for sharing this detailed information.

 

[Ishie1013]

My post is long, but I hope someone will find it helpful. I am a fellow who just got a job in the fall 2015. Here is my story and thoughts:

Something that is highly relevant to the job market discussion that is rarely mentioned here is the issue of TIMING. If every path in your city or program adores you and would like to spend all their time with you each and every day, but they do not have a NEED for a new person in the group or your skill set, you will NOT get a job there. No one is in the position to just create a job for you bc they like you. This is not how anyone runs a business. Also it is not always the paths (or even a physician at all) who makes the hiring decisions. If you work as a hospital employee, or some other arrangement, making all the paths love you is a great start, but it is not possible to kiss every behind on earth in hopes of getting a job.

Other thoughts:
From talking to friends in practice in other specialties, the most desirable cities are tough for ALL DOCS to find jobs. Places like San Fran, Boulder, Austin, Portland, to name a few....lots of people want to live in those places, in all areas of employment inside and out of medicine.

Every doc thinks their specialty is going to hell in a hand basket. Don't believe me, ask around. A lot of other docs are burned out and tired and hate dealing with patients. Don't believe me, ask around....

Best of luck to everyone.

Thank you for posting this. It's encouraging to see the process working for some people, and gives me some margin of hope. Question: on average, how long were you waiting to hear back? I'm still waiting to hear from two places where my interviews appeared to go well, and the wait is kind of driving me crazy, and the process has been discouraging enough that I'm hoping for an end in sight (I've been at this since July). I'm still sending out applications but I also don't want to utilize connections and immediately cancel. Were you hearing yay or nay within a few weeks, or was it going on for months?

Thank you

 

[Tissue issue]

Thank you for posting this. It's encouraging to see the process working for some people, and gives me some margin of hope. Question: on average, how long were you waiting to hear back? I'm still waiting to hear from two places where my interviews appeared to go well, and the wait is kind of driving me crazy, and the process has been discouraging enough that I'm hoping for an end in sight (I've been at this since July). I'm still sending out applications but I also don't want to utilize connections and immediately cancel. Were you hearing yay or nay within a few weeks, or was it going on for months?

Thank you

Use whatever connections you have NOW. Maybe/possible job offers are useless. A written contract= a job offer.

I've been on the hiring side of the equation. If a place wants you and is able to extend an offer they will do it promptly. It's never a good sign if a "wait" is involved.

 

[Ishie1013]

Thank you for the advice. That was the impression I was getting.

 

[AlteredScale]

If you want to go into pathology but want to stay in academics, is that hard to do? Say UCSF Path to being a adjunct faculty at UCSF in the dept.

 

[Pathman1000]

I imagine that as long as they like you, feel like you would be a good fit and need someone with your specialty skills, you would be a shoe-in. As pathperson said above, it probably would have to do with timing more than anything else.

What about going from a large university program to a smaller academic environment? (IE UCSF to somewhere like UCD or UCI?) How prevalent are those kind of jobs? I imagine timing again plays a role, but it seems like every state school has its own path residency these days.

 

[pathperson]

For me it was pretty quick. The places that interviewed me came around within 2-3-4 weeks of my application (approximately, I do not remember exactly). The place I had an offer from but turned down took about 6 weeks to get back to me with a phone interview, which was actually fine bc it helped me with the "2 offers on the table at the same time" goal that I had.

After the 2 in-person interviews, which were one week apart, the offers took about 2-3 weeks to come. One place as I said offered to someone else with more experience. The other 2 places wanted to hear within about a week. I asked for a week extension to think about it carefully, and I accepted the offer I mentioned above. After I accepted, I got 4-5 callbacks from other places. Some were within the week I accepted, and I think 1-2 were lingering a few weeks-one month later. I guess the timeline varies depending on the place. Some places have to collect applications for a certain length of time, before doing any call and others can act more quickly.

Once I accepted my offer I stopped applying. So within a month and a half of accepting, all people stopped calling me. I sent my first applications at the very end of July and all throughout August. I had my 2 in person interviews in mid-late September. I accepted my job in early-mid October.

I disagree completely with the statement above that if a place likes you, needs your specialty and has an opening, they will hire you. That is false. Big institutions have politics and when people have been working somewhere for decades there are a lot of alliances and weird things you cannot see. I would say it does not mean you will get a job. I have seen places pass over awesome people, and bend over backwards to keep less than great people. In fact I have seen places keep rude residents....why? Maybe because their function in the department is to make certain other people appear less malignant than they are, so there can be high up people who are motivated to keep rude people around. It is strange but no one said life is fair.

There are no guarantees in life. Learn your pathology and actively try to be as professional and as much of a team player as possible, bc those are skills everyone wants and also bc you will rely on yourself more than anyone else in this process. So work on developing the skills you need to really function as a physician and professional.

Can someone start a thread or stickie or a place where people can post their precise job search experiences so others can read them? Like a forever thread that never falls off the page? It would really help get accurate information out there.....

 

[Euchromatin]

I disagree completely with the statement above that if a place likes you, needs your specialty and has an opening, they will hire you. That is false. Big institutions have politics and when people have been working somewhere for decades there are a lot of alliances and weird things you cannot see. I would say it does not mean you will get a job.

I could not agree more with pathperson here. I personally know of several instances in which a change in the leadership, budget and/or internal politics of a department totally changed the landscape. Fellows that were well-liked/personable, with great skills/work ethic and the exact subspecialty training desired/needed (sometimes with pre-arranged "handshake" agreements that a job would be offered if they did x, y and z) did not get an interview offer when a department was hiring, were not hired in spite of a great interview and references and I've even seen existing job offers rescinded and other games played. This seems especially prominent at larger academic institutions, as, in my experience, they seem to have more significant intradepartmental politics, but can certainly happen at smaller places too. Other things to keep in mind in this vein are that some departments may be required to advertise an available position (by their institution's HR department, for instance), even if they already plan to hire one specific person already known to the group. I think this is one of the reasons why you sometimes see ridiculously specific advertisements requesting a pathologist with odd combinations of specializations/skill sets. Also, there may be reasons for more experienced pathologists to apply for positions they have no real intention of taking (e.g. threatening to leave used as a bargaining tool to get a promotion/raise/whatever in their existing job) or for groups to advertise for a position they don't actually intend to hire anyone for (e.g. not everyone in the group agrees that a hire is necessary or group is under pressure from outside the department/non-pathologists to hire someone for x, y or z purpose and those overseeing the interview process want to look like they are cooperating but have every intention of not finding anyone "good enough" or with the "right fit" from the start).

 

[Ishie1013]

Thank you for the detailed answer. It's been long enough since my two interviews that I was growing concerned, and with the time frame you're indicating, my concerns seem justified. So I'm picking myself up, I did some CV maintenance, and sent out for the next round. I know the holidays are really slow and saw some people who were in pretty acute panic stage last year (like I am now) pick up offers in February/March, so here's hoping.

 

[pathperson]

Or you could have a place where one person exercises an unfair level of influence due to a secretive decades-long inappropriate relationship with the person at the very top. That person then has undue influence over hiring, in subtle ways, that cannot be proven, in shaping the future of the department according to their personal wishes. Those personal wishes can be emotional and seemingly change on a whim, but it does not matter. This can be done over the objections of other ranking attendings. This can happen in places that are otherwise awesome places to work, where people genuinely get along with each other, because not every alliance or inappropriate relationship can result in an environment that is openly malignant. This type of environment can be tough to identify and definitely is frustrating to work in.

Anyway while I wish it were not the case, the most difficult people to deal with are not the ones who are greedy (greed is pretty easy to figure out bc what motivates such people is only money) or even malignant personalities. Malignant personalities are usually somewhat mentally disturbed people who are deeply unhappy. The most difficult people are those who are power-hungry. These people can be nice (but not usually) and are always satisfied with only getting more and more control and power. They do this in many ways. It can be interesting to see how such people make their agenda happen in the midst of legitimate concerns from others that the mission should be X, only to find out that the mission has been changed to Y.

So no, it is not the case that the good guy wins. Sorry. It happens. But I think it is actually very instructive to see such environments or hear about them, so you can try to identify and avoid them.

 

[Tissue issue]

Pathperson and euchromatin- I hear you. I was attempting to help ishie1013 by saying keep looking. I don't like the way these things work sometimes either. But a place wanting you and extending a written contract is different than some people liking you and making maybe/possible offers. As far as getting a job, ultimately for that process the only person(s) who matter are the one(s) who actually have the power to hire. Of course, our lack of leverage due to oversupply is an absolute killer.

 

[Ishie1013]

Thank you.

 

[Alteran]

Something that is highly relevant to the job market discussion that is rarely mentioned here is the issue of TIMING. If every path in your city or program adores you and would like to spend all their time with you each and every day, but they do not have a NEED for a new person in the group or your skill set, you will NOT get a job there. No one is in the position to just create a job for you bc they like you. This is not how anyone runs a business. Also it is not always the paths (or even a physician at all) who makes the hiring decisions. If you work as a hospital employee, or some other arrangement, making all the paths love you is a great start, but it is not possible to kiss every behind on earth in hopes of getting a job.

This is so absolutely true. I was told upfront by one pathologist who is a managing partner at a local group, who knows me, that if I had graduated a year earlier, he would have had a job for me. For medical students reading this post, it is so important to know that as a pathologist, you do NOT generate business. Therefore, you cannot simply just plant yourself into anywhere, USA, and expect to find a job. Pathologists can only go where there is an opening for their particular skill set at the appropriate time.

I disagree completely with the statement above that if a place likes you, needs your specialty and has an opening, they will hire you. That is false. Big institutions have politics and when people have been working somewhere for decades there are a lot of alliances and weird things you cannot see. I would say it does not mean you will get a job. I have seen places pass over awesome people, and bend over backwards to keep less than great people. In fact I have seen places keep rude residents....why? Maybe because their function in the department is to make certain other people appear less malignant than they are, so there can be high up people who are motivated to keep rude people around. It is strange but no one said life is fair.

This is also true. I've seen academic departments hire less then stellar residents and pass over really good residents. As one of my friends often likes to say from his MBA days: First rate people hire first rate people, second rate people hire third rate people.

Here's the bottom line: If you really, really love pathology, do it with the understanding it is a saturated market and it could possibly take you a LONG time to find a job...unlike every other specialty. It personally took me over a year to find my job. At first, I sent out dozens upon dozens of applications that went into the virtual nothingness. I ultimately got my job by doing locums work and getting signout experience, which is about the only thing that really counts today. Pathologists with signout experience (at least 2 years) really have no problem getting interviews and landing a job, even if they have limited connections.

 

[AlteredScale]

This is so absolutely true. I was told upfront by one pathologist who is a managing partner at a local group, who knows me, that if I had graduated a year earlier, he would have had a job for me. For medical students reading this post, it is so important to know that as a pathologist, you do NOT generate business. Therefore, you cannot simply just plant yourself into anywhere, USA, and expect to find a job. Pathologists can only go where there is an opening for their particular skill set at the appropriate time.



This is also true. I've seen academic departments hire less then stellar residents and pass over really good residents. As one of my friends often likes to say from his MBA days: First rate people hire first rate people, second rate people hire third rate people.

Here's the bottom line: If you really, really love pathology, do it with the understanding it is a saturated market and it could possibly take you a LONG time to find a job...unlike every other specialty. It personally took me over a year to find my job. At first, I sent out dozens upon dozens of applications that went into the virtual nothingness. I ultimately got my job by doing locums work and getting signout experience, which is about the only thing that really counts today. Pathologists with signout experience (at least 2 years) really have no problem getting interviews and landing a job, even if they have limited connections.

What did you do for the year for work while looking for a job?

 

[Alteran]

What did you do for the year for work while looking for a job?

I started looking for a job immediately after learning I passed my boards, which was fall 2013 (around August) while I was in fellowship. From fall of 2013-summer of 2014 I continuously sent out application after application without even so much as hearing a "thanks but no thanks". After getting no where for 7 months, out of as much annoyance as desperation, I answered a locums ad that was probably spammed to every pathologist in my state they had an email address for. I immediately got a phone call back followed by an interview with the head pathologist who also happened to be an alumnus of my program. I left fellowship on schedule and immediately began what would be 4 months of locums work. I was subsequently offered a permanent position in late fall 2014 where I've been since.

All said and done, it took just over a year and 4 months of work experience to land my job. In the end, it's a good job with well above average pay (multidisciplinary hospital based private practice). I would like to say that my experience was unique, but it wasn't. We've looked at and known of other applicants out of training who've struggled to find a position despite being solid candidates.

I would also like to say that this is totally not the norm for every other specialty who is actively recruited years before they're finished with training. In the entire time I trained, NOT ONE person told me " hey, you're a decent pathologist and I think you'd be a good fit" or "we're hiring, want to interview?". Going to physician job fairs was a waste of time too. No one is looking for pathologists and the recruiters were as amused as they were annoyed when I told them my specialty. They won't waste their time for something there is no demand for. Ultimately, I would say that finding a job is only really a legitimate concern for pathologists as far as I know.

 

[Alteran]

u got a jorb. all bathologists git jorbs venshilly. kwit yer winen.

I can't tell if you're lack of spelling is intentional and meant to be trollish. But, trust me when I say I'm not whining because my job is way better than average as I'm doing VERY well by comparison to even full partners at local private groups. But it, even by my own assessment, is a fluke of a job and certainly not anywhere near the norm for recent grads.

 

[Ishie1013]

From the user name, I'm guessing this is parody.

 

[coroner]

Well, clearly you got your job on academic merit along with interviewing skills, and not butt kissing...you only mentioned it 5 times, ha-ha...

...but it is not possible to kiss every behind on earth in hopes of getting a job.

I am tired of all the advice to kiss butt every minute of every day to find a job in path.

I was not on every committee, kissing every butt that walked by, etc.

Butts kissed at meetings: minimal

...and for God's sake focus on your training and not on butt kissing

I did NOT find it difficult AT ALL to get phone interviews

4 phone interviews out of 34 applications = 11% response rate...

Something that is highly relevant to the job market discussion that is rarely mentioned here is the issue of TIMING. If every path in your city or program adores you and would like to spend all their time with you each and every day, but they do not have a NEED for a new person in the group or your skill set, you will NOT get a job there. No one is in the position to just create a job for you bc they like you. This is not how anyone runs a business. Also it is not always the paths (or even a physician at all) who makes the hiring decisions. If you work as a hospital employee, or some other arrangement, making all the paths love you is a great start, but it is not possible to kiss every behind on earth in hopes of getting a job.

This is so absolutely true. I was told upfront by one pathologist who is a managing partner at a local group, who knows me, that if I had graduated a year earlier, he would have had a job for me. For medical students reading this post, it is so important to know that as a pathologist, you do NOT generate business. Therefore, you cannot simply just plant yourself into anywhere, USA, and expect to find a job. Pathologists can only go where there is an opening for their particular skill set at the appropriate time.

People, do we really need to go over this...? Of course it's true. No one will hire you unless there's adequate supply generating revenue for the cost of the labor/services that you provide. The reason it's understated here is because this should've been learned in a high school or undergrad economics class not med school or residency.

Pathologists with signout experience (at least 2 years) really have no problem getting interviews and landing a job, even if they have limited connections.

Ummm...don't know about that one. Their chances will certainly go up certainly and doors will probably open. But to suggest jobs in the current market become low hanging fruit just because you've clocked in 2 yrs+ is not the case. Especially with limited connections. Word of mouth i.e. connections is still the #1 way people in our field find jobs.

Can someone start a thread or stickie or a place where people can post their precise job search experiences so others can read them? Like a forever thread that never falls off the page? It would really help get accurate information out there.....

In the past, sometimes people would start a thread for that particular year e.g. "2015 Job interview thread" kinda like they do for a Pathology residency application/match thread. It's on and off though...

 

[pathmonkey]

Go to the most prestigious program you can get into. Choosing a residency because it's comfortable, or easy, or close to home is not the point. Your residency (and likely fellowship) is what every employer is going to look at when you apply for a job, and even what your colleagues will see in the little blurb about you on the hospital/lab website for the rest of your career. Like it or not, a famous name on your resume opens doors that won't otherwise open for you.

THIS.

Not everyone can get into a big name place, but if you can and don't have some absolutely compelling personal/family reason why you can't leave where you are, why on earth would you NOT want to do that?

Residency is 5 years, and if you're doing it right, you'll be spending most of that time working. . .your career is the next 35 years after that! If you leave it, you can always move back to the Southeast when you're done with your training, and in fact, not only will you probably be a better pathologist when you get back than you would have had you trained in some small low volume/low profile program, but you'll also probably be a standout when applying for that local job you want later. See, now you're the local boy that trained at DUKE (or Hopkins, or Stanford, Harvard, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo, wherever. .you get the point).

And what happens if. . .for whatever reason. . .you have to leave the Southeast and go somewhere else? Being from a place that has a good NATIONAL (vs local) reputation helps.

Years ago, when I was a medical student, I met with the director of AP at my medical school (Chairman was figurehead. . .this was the guy who actually ran the department). He told me that when he puts out some ad for a hire, he gets a huge stack of CVs. He then just looks through them and pulls out the 5-6 who trained at "name" prestigious places, and puts the rest in the trash. Fair? No. . .but that's the reality. So he told me point blank, if you can go anywhere, pick one of the small number with the big national/international reputations and go there.

Why? Not only will you likely get the best training, but just having the name of the famous institution on your CV will help you for the rest of your entire career. So I did. . .and didn't regret it for a second. Best career advice I ever got my entire life. Clinicians. . .not necessarily even other pathologists. . .take me more seriously when they hear that I trained at a "name" place. I've actually had an oncologist tell me "you must know something because you trained at X". (It was hard not to laugh, but I managed not to).

Now, I'm not just some idiot pathologist (and believe me, plenty of other doctors assume that pathologists are idiots), but I'm a "serious" physician. Am I really "better"? I think I did get a better training than I might have elsewhere, but that doesn't even really matter. . .THEY think I did, and it affects my professional relationship with them. . .including helping to influence individual clients to send my group business!

Fast forward 15 years, and now I'm in a position of reviewing OTHER peoples CVs when they apply for jobs at MY practice. Guess who gets the first phone calls. . . its the people who trained at the best places. Are they necessarily the best pathologists? Of course not. . .great people can come from mediocre places, and great places can put out mediocre graduates. . .but I know there is a *better chance* that they'll be fundamentally good if they come from a place with a strong reputation in pathology and a reputation for putting out good pathologists. My group can't interview each of the 40 people who sent in their CVs, and we sure as hell can't give 40 people glass slide tests . .we can only interview maybe 4-5 at MOST. With very little else to go on, where someone has trained is really one of the more important clues *on paper* to judge someones ability or potential.

 

[Ishie1013]

So if you're not at one of those 5-6 programs, you're screwed. Which is where the majority of us are.

 

[deleted642280]

I started by meeting with my department chair who was an amazing resource for career development. She helped me really solidify my goals- do you want academic vs private practice, AP vs CP vs both, where do you want to live, what kind of research interests do you have, etc. Then I made a list of the programs I was interested in that also have good reputations, and I narrowed that list to places I was intested in living. Then I went on my interviews. I only interviewed at places I definitely would have been happy to rank. I made my final list based on where I felt the most at home. You spend a lot of hours of your life as a resident working. It is important that you like the peoole you will be working with. Since I only interviewed at places that had both 1) a good reputation and 2) a location I wanted to live, ranking could easily be based on who I liked the most. I have no regrets. I got my #1, and I truly love my new career.

 

[coroner]

So if you're not at one of those 5-6 programs, you're screwed.

No, and there's plenty of people in the past who have said otherwise.

If this isn't enough, there was a thread on this ten years ago

Question for Fellows/senior residents: big name vs. small name -- and finding a job.

Residency is 5 years...

 

[pathmonkey]

So if you're not at one of those 5-6 programs, you're screwed. Which is where the majority of us are.

You're absolutely right. You have zero chance of finding a job, and you might as well quit pathology right now.

OK seriously, being from a big name place can help get your foot in the door (so to speak), and all else being equal, if you have the opportunity to do a residency in a prestigious place, I think its a good idea to do so, for reasons I listed above, potentially better networking opportunities, etc. But its certainly not necessary!

How many graduates per year do you think the top ten programs put out COLLECTIVELY? 60? 80 max?

There are something like 15,000 pathologists in the USA, and the overwhelming majority of them aren't from the top 10 places. By simple mathematical necessity, the vast majority of jobs are filled by pathology graduates who are NOT from big "name" places. Not having some prestigious name on your CV isn't a bar to getting a job, that's just nuts.

I would say that internationally famous or not, it never hurts to train somewhere with a good reputation in geographic proximity to where you want to practice. That helps because potential local employers will probably be familiar with the level of training you've had, and may even know personally individuals in your dept who trained you. Single best thing in finding a job ( BETTER than a big name residency) is a strong recommendation from someone personally known to your potential employer!


me>> Residency is 5 years...

OK, got me. Lets say for "most" pathologists, training is 5 years (including fellowship). Yes, it can be done in less. . .and some still take more.


>>"I haven't seen any data whatsoever that going to place X vs Y provides any sort of long term career advantage, likely because it doesn't"

Likely because nobody is compiling that data, not because the hypothesis isn't (or is) true.

I absolutely do agree that connections made with other pathologists during training are important. I also agree that happiness during your 3-6 years of training is important too. And I agree, that in the long term your career success is mostly up to you. Matching to a great program doesn't mean you'll come out the other end as a good pathologist, and matching to a mediocre one doesn't necessarily prevent you from becoming a great pathologist either. Good and bad pathologists come out of famous and not famous programs. Bad pathologists still find jobs. . .sometimes good ones don't. Your learning doesn't end when you're done with your residency. (Or at least, its not supposed to!). Once you're out a few years, its much more about "what have you done lately" rather than "where did you train a zillion years ago", and there are all kinds of relevant experiences not readily available during most residencies (like running a lab, sitting on hospital committees, negotiating contracts, etc) where someone who came out of a not so famous place with that experience can run circles around someone from the famous place who has not.

Still, begging the question of what exactly constitutes "long term career advantage", you don't think that (for example) graduates of certain programs are more well-represented in academic medicine than others? Or that if you're interested in pursuing a career in academic medicine that certain training places prepare you better for that, and start you off with better connections? IE, certain places just make this easier than others?

Along those lines, you don't think graduates of certain programs have an easier time finding FIRST jobs compared to others? Is it really the case that in the current fairly competitive job market, all pathology graduates of all programs have exactly equal first job prospects? IE, graduates of the Podunk medical center 70% FMG pathology program are equally competitive as graduates of The Prestigious University Clinic and Research Center?

 

[Ishie1013]

You're absolutely right. You have zero chance of finding a job, and you might as well quit pathology right now.

Sadly, it's a bit late for that. Now seventy applications in though, and have an interview (my third! Guess that shortage is starting!) so maybe I can avoid joining the ranks of the "scrambling into another fellowship". But yeah, jumping ship to FP so I can have a future has crossed my mind many times. First or second years though? Give it some thought.

 

[VenuSN]

Sadly, it's a bit late for that. Now seventy applications in though, and have an interview (my third! Guess that shortage is starting!) so maybe I can avoid joining the ranks of the "scrambling into another fellowship". But yeah, jumping ship to FP so I can have a future has crossed my mind many times. First or second years though? Give it some thought.

Barging in on this: is there no other sub-specialty that would hire easily these days, besides FP? It's a very interesting domain, but not necessarily one to enter in if you're not 100% enthusiastic about it. And the pay is on the low side (albeit a lot higher than 0$).

 

[Ishie1013]

There's a ton that hire easily, but there aren't a ton willing to take the financial hit on retraining someone who has already been trained and board certified in something else. It's also three years, versus changing course entirely and jumping into one of the 4-7 year (or IM plus a 3 year fellowship) courses when you've already racked up 8-9 years of loan interest since it starts accruing your first year of med school. If you're still in medical school, then I'd say do what you enjoy that *also* has a decent hiring scene. Don't get me wrong, pathology is my dream job, but if at the end of it I have medical school debt and no job (or and endless string of last minute fellowships which doesn't allow me to make headway on my loans), then going into it because it's my dream is just as irresponsible as any of the other "do what you love!' advice heaped on artists and poets. For me, as mentioned, it really is too late without doubling down on my debt and finding a new residency that would take me (though FP would be the most likely; there are usually open spots), so I'm going to keep pushing toward what I can find with the connections I have and hope for the best. But I'd consider it unethical to tell others that there's no problem or that the shortage is going to save the day (it's been predicted since the 90s, now pushed back to 2020 citing the exact same factors, while ignoring advances in technology that allow greater efficiency (thus fewer pathologists). It doesn't take an economist to figure out that going from 80 applications for a less than desirable position to a critical pathologist shortage with a flood of available jobs and raise in base salary in five years is ludicrous. It flat out isn't going to happen, and the 'carrot on a stick' it has become to new trainees is ill informed at best, and deliberately deceptive at worst. Even among the more positive folks is the sentiment that as long as you're not so picky that you want to remain in state or in one part of the country, you'll find a job, a sentiment echoed by virtually no other specialty. In that sense, I'm lucky in that I'm fairly unrestricted, but add a kid and a spouse into that mix, and it gets worse.

I am someone that doesn't hate other specialties though. Pathology is my favorite for the science, the interactions, and the answers, but I like patients and medicine perfectly well, thus a job in family, emergency, or otherwise would be far more enjoyable than virtually any of the other jobs I could be doing out in the real world, and way better than underemployment. If someone is in their later years of medical school and encounters a similar situation "I like most of my rotations, but pathology is my favorite", I would encourage them to pursue career options with a broader market. That's just common sense. And I put my own experiences up one, because I'm exceptionally frustrated, and two, because people do need to see what it's like, even if I'm an "anonymous complainer", unless of course, I get a good job and then my experiences can be considered true and valid. If you trace my posts, I was all starry eyed about the market improving back in 2011 (back then the shortage was coming in 2015! No worries!), excited about getting the residency I wanted, and becoming a pathologist. Now, I now really wish I had given more credence to the anonymous voices telling me to bail. It'll naturally all be worth it if I get a job, but that's one hell of a gamble when you're hundreds of thousands of dollars in. If it were just me, I'd entertain the notion that there's something drastically wrong with me, but I'm watching it happen pretty broadly, including to candidates I believe are far better than I.

 

[gbwillner]

There's a ton that hire easily, but there aren't a ton willing to take the financial hit on retraining someone who has already been trained and board certified in something else. It's also three years, versus changing course entirely and jumping into one of the 4-7 year (or IM plus a 3 year fellowship) courses when you've already racked up 8-9 years of loan interest since it starts accruing your first year of med school. If you're still in medical school, then I'd say do what you enjoy that *also* has a decent hiring scene. Don't get me wrong, pathology is my dream job, but if at the end of it I have medical school debt and no job (or and endless string of last minute fellowships which doesn't allow me to make headway on my loans), then going into it because it's my dream is just as irresponsible as any of the other "do what you love!' advice heaped on artists and poets. For me, as mentioned, it really is too late without doubling down on my debt and finding a new residency that would take me (though FP would be the most likely; there are usually open spots), so I'm going to keep pushing toward what I can find with the connections I have and hope for the best. But I'd consider it unethical to tell others that there's no problem or that the shortage is going to save the day (it's been predicted since the 90s, now pushed back to 2020 citing the exact same factors, while ignoring advances in technology that allow greater efficiency (thus fewer pathologists). It doesn't take an economist to figure out that going from 80 applications for a less than desirable position to a critical pathologist shortage with a flood of available jobs and raise in base salary in five years is ludicrous. It flat out isn't going to happen, and the 'carrot on a stick' it has become to new trainees is ill informed at best, and deliberately deceptive at worst. Even among the more positive folks is the sentiment that as long as you're not so picky that you want to remain in state or in one part of the country, you'll find a job, a sentiment echoed by virtually no other specialty. In that sense, I'm lucky in that I'm fairly unrestricted, but add a kid and a spouse into that mix, and it gets worse.

I am someone that doesn't hate other specialties though. Pathology is my favorite for the science, the interactions, and the answers, but I like patients and medicine perfectly well, thus a job in family, emergency, or otherwise would be far more enjoyable than virtually any of the other jobs I could be doing out in the real world, and way better than underemployment. If someone is in their later years of medical school and encounters a similar situation "I like most of my rotations, but pathology is my favorite", I would encourage them to pursue career options with a broader market. That's just common sense. And I put my own experiences up one, because I'm exceptionally frustrated, and two, because people do need to see what it's like, even if I'm an "anonymous complainer", unless of course, I get a good job and then my experiences can be considered true and valid. If you trace my posts, I was all starry eyed about the market improving back in 2011 (back then the shortage was coming in 2015! No worries!), excited about getting the residency I wanted, and becoming a pathologist. Now, I now really wish I had given more credence to the anonymous voices telling me to bail. It'll naturally all be worth it if I get a job, but that's one hell of a gamble when you're hundreds of thousands of dollars in. If it were just me, I'd entertain the notion that there's something drastically wrong with me, but I'm watching it happen pretty broadly, including to candidates I believe are far better than I.

Sorry things are looking so tough. I will say though it is only January. Not everyplace looks to hire so far out in advance, so just keep at it. I will also say that not all job prospects are the same- spamming your cv has a lot lower chance of success than carefully selecting and contracting a potential fit. you may also want to consider academic departments where there is frequently a moderate amount of turnover.

 

[Ishie1013]

Sorry things are looking so tough. I will say though it is only January. Not everyplace looks to hire so far out in advance, so just keep at it. I will also say that not all job prospects are the same- spamming your cv has a lot lower chance of success than carefully selecting and contracting a potential fit. you may also want to consider academic departments where there is frequently a moderate amount of turnover.

Thank you. It is almost February, and since I am looking far and wide, as it gets later, the timing on obtaining state licenses becomes a factor. I don't have the finances to get them all, so with a few high yield exceptions, I'm concerned that if that perfect job finally does come around in May, I'll have no way to be licensed in time for it. I have been relatively careful on the CVs. I don't apply to places I wouldn't go; I don't apply to places where I'm not qualified for the position (department chair, microbiology fellowship, dermpath). I've put out a few where two fellowships are asked for in which one is mine and one is an unboarded surgical specialty where I feel like my experience is sufficient in case they can be persuaded, and I've sent a number to groups that didn't have ads out, but where I thought I could be a good fit and was able to contact someone. I've sent out several forwarded to me by contacts. In each case, I do at least a little research in advance and gear my cover letter appropriately. I've gotten some nice responses, I've been beaten out on some interviews, I've gotten a lot of people who say they'd be really interested if I had some experience, but it's been incredibly discouraging overall. The majority just say nothing. I have been looking at academic with similar issues. With academics so far, I've found a lot wanting more senior experience, and more wanting people with different specialties. I'm hoping this last interview finally brings an end to it.

 

[VenuSN]

There's a ton that hire easily, but there aren't a ton willing to take the financial hit on retraining someone who has already been trained and board certified in something else. It's also three years, versus changing course entirely and jumping into one of the 4-7 year (or IM plus a 3 year fellowship) courses when you've already racked up 8-9 years of loan interest since it starts accruing your first year of med school. If you're still in medical school, then I'd say do what you enjoy that *also* has a decent hiring scene. Don't get me wrong, pathology is my dream job, but if at the end of it I have medical school debt and no job (or and endless string of last minute fellowships which doesn't allow me to make headway on my loans), then going into it because it's my dream is just as irresponsible as any of the other "do what you love!' advice heaped on artists and poets. For me, as mentioned, it really is too late without doubling down on my debt and finding a new residency that would take me (though FP would be the most likely; there are usually open spots), so I'm going to keep pushing toward what I can find with the connections I have and hope for the best. But I'd consider it unethical to tell others that there's no problem or that the shortage is going to save the day (it's been predicted since the 90s, now pushed back to 2020 citing the exact same factors, while ignoring advances in technology that allow greater efficiency (thus fewer pathologists). It doesn't take an economist to figure out that going from 80 applications for a less than desirable position to a critical pathologist shortage with a flood of available jobs and raise in base salary in five years is ludicrous. It flat out isn't going to happen, and the 'carrot on a stick' it has become to new trainees is ill informed at best, and deliberately deceptive at worst. Even among the more positive folks is the sentiment that as long as you're not so picky that you want to remain in state or in one part of the country, you'll find a job, a sentiment echoed by virtually no other specialty. In that sense, I'm lucky in that I'm fairly unrestricted, but add a kid and a spouse into that mix, and it gets worse.

I am someone that doesn't hate other specialties though. Pathology is my favorite for the science, the interactions, and the answers, but I like patients and medicine perfectly well, thus a job in family, emergency, or otherwise would be far more enjoyable than virtually any of the other jobs I could be doing out in the real world, and way better than underemployment. If someone is in their later years of medical school and encounters a similar situation "I like most of my rotations, but pathology is my favorite", I would encourage them to pursue career options with a broader market. That's just common sense. And I put my own experiences up one, because I'm exceptionally frustrated, and two, because people do need to see what it's like, even if I'm an "anonymous complainer", unless of course, I get a good job and then my experiences can be considered true and valid. If you trace my posts, I was all starry eyed about the market improving back in 2011 (back then the shortage was coming in 2015! No worries!), excited about getting the residency I wanted, and becoming a pathologist. Now, I now really wish I had given more credence to the anonymous voices telling me to bail. It'll naturally all be worth it if I get a job, but that's one hell of a gamble when you're hundreds of thousands of dollars in. If it were just me, I'd entertain the notion that there's something drastically wrong with me, but I'm watching it happen pretty broadly, including to candidates I believe are far better than I.

Thank you for a thorough response. I'm sorry to hear about the problems you're encountering and I hope you can find a job soon. How about the Hempath or Mol Genetics market? Do they also have similar numbers of open spots as FP?

 

[Ishie1013]

I've seen more ads for hemepath and molpath. Not sure if they want new blood but more ads along those lines.

 

[path24]

Struggling to find work in pathology...unfortunate and not uncommon story.

There is major over training creating a big surplus. There is no current shortage (I mean we are technically experiencing the shortage right now according to publications, academics, and organizations) and never will be one in the future. The same story just a new year. Entering this field is a gamble and not a good one. Long term career prospects are very poor.