Yup, its bad.

[Unty]

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The problem is that path “doesn’t work” for too damned many young doctors today. IM, PEDS, GS, PSYCH, OB-GYN
“work” for ~98% of their grads. NOT path, most assuredly.

That’s going a little too far Mike. The only negative people, including me, I’ve come across in Path are in SDN.

I have friends who are happy. They work 8 hour days and get paid decent for a 40 hour workweek (250-300k). They arent getting paid baller level but they are happy.

If you think that’s low for an attending, then so be it. I think it’s a good salary considering 40 hour workweek, no call, no frozens, no autopsies.

 

[Unty]

I see why some may be anxious and/or disgruntled, but those who are may not want to completely telegraph their identity on an anonymous forum based on their username and/or signature. Doesn't help matters.

Anyway, path worked for me! My job is awesome.

You are dermpath from what I remember. Maybe that’s why your job is awesome. Lol

 

[deleted314957]

That’s going a little too far Mike. The only negative people, including me, I’ve come across in Path are in SDN.

I have friends who are happy. They work 8 hour days and get paid decent for a 40 hour workweek (250-300k). They arent getting paid baller level but they are happy.

If you think that’s low for an attending, then so be it. I think it’s a good salary considering 40 hour workweek, no call, no frozens, no autopsies.

Speaking in comparison to the specialities I listed, path has far fewer options as regards ones FIRST job in particular. And, too many of those options are crappy.

 

[turtle1966]

That’s going a little too far Mike. The only negative people, including me, I’ve come across in Path are in SDN.

I have friends who are happy. They work 8 hour days and get paid decent for a 40 hour workweek (250-300k). They arent getting paid baller level but they are happy.

If you think that’s low for an attending, then so be it. I think it’s a good salary considering 40 hour workweek, no call, no frozens, no autopsies.

If you are ok with "250-300K" and with job insecurity and love the field, you are qualified for pathology. Just remember it will be a one-way street.

Personally, 300K is too little and job insecurity too unsettling.

 

[Unty]

If you are ok with "250-300K" and with job insecurity and love the field, you are qualified for pathology. Just remember it will be a one-way street.

Personally, 300K is too little and job insecurity too unsettling.

Yup if you think 300k is too little then go to radiology.

One of my friends got suddenly laid off because his groups contract was suddenly not renewed. No warning whatsoever. Luckily for him he got another job through one of our friends from residency.

 

[LADoc00]

I had a junior grade Lt. in the Marine Corps that reminds me of Riririri.
Your focus should be on patients and patient care!
------
We have to protect democracy! We need to be ready to die for American ideals!

The whole reason I am where I am now is because I was already psychologically inoculated against such manipulation at a young age. God Bless the Marine Corps.

I will drink a shot of Winterstorm 23yr Glenfiddich in honor of Lt. "Ririrriri" who I have been told died in random bar fight after getting back from Iraq.

 

[Nilf]

CompHealth called me so I chatted em up for a bit to get some numbers.

Pathology per diem pay is $800 or roughly what a per diem experienced nurse makes and what a 19 year old exotic dancer will pull down in 2x 4 hr shifts.

The same arm doing this is also doing Dermatology, which pays $1600 day! TWICE. TWICE THE AMOUNT. And that is for basic office based derm.

For Mohs surgery derm, the rate is up to $4000, 500% more.

Let that sink in.

When pushed CHealth admitted the predominant reason for being offered what is otherwise the single lowest per diem rate of ALL physicians (aside from office based family med)is the fact that there is a ton of FMGs who are willing accept that or even lower.

And I thought for some reason the situation was turning a corner, which it is not.

I just had similar experience. A headhunter told me that locum tenens pathologists get paid $600-900 per day. My landscaper nets more than that during summer months.

This is the reality folks. These are the hard numbers, shaped by supply and demand. These are the facts which should guide the decision making process of medical students, residents and practicing pathologists, not some anecdotes that 'every pathologists I know has a job', and that are 'good jobs for good candidates'.

If you don't believe, PM me and next time the headhunter calls me I will send you their phone number.

 

[acurax]

I just had similar experience. A headhunter told me that locum tenens pathologists get paid $600-900 per day. My landscaper nets more than that during summer months.

This is the reality folks. These are the hard numbers, shaped by supply and demand. These are the facts which should guide the decision making process of medical students, residents and practicing pathologists, not some anecdotes that 'every pathologists I know has a job', and that are 'good jobs for good candidates'.

If you don't believe, PM me and next time the headhunter calls me I will send you their phone number.

Interesting. I was told this week by a Locum they were being paid $1200/day. This is <30 miles from a top 10 metro area in the Midwest region. I didn't ask which locums company they were with though.

 

[Guest8]

Interesting. I was told this week by a Locum they were being paid $1200/day. This is <30 miles from a top 10 metro area in the Midwest region. I didn't ask which locums company they were with though.

We pay our locums $1400/day. Maybe we should halve it.

 

[MetroPath]

I just had similar experience. A headhunter told me that locum tenens pathologists get paid $600-900 per day. My landscaper nets more than that during summer months.

This is the reality folks. These are the hard numbers, shaped by supply and demand. These are the facts which should guide the decision making process of medical students, residents and practicing pathologists, not some anecdotes that 'every pathologists I know has a job', and that are 'good jobs for good candidates'.

If you don't believe, PM me and next time the headhunter calls me I will send you their phone number.

I believe you alright. Oversupply of pathology trainees is a reality.

I do wonder how much some of the pathologists that comment regularly on here (complaining) make per year. I’m sure most make at least 300-400k a year.

 

[y2k_free_radical]

I believe you alright. Oversupply of pathology trainees is a reality.

I do wonder how much some of the pathologists that comment regularly on here (complaining) make per year. I’m sure most make at least 300-400k a year.

Not for long with all others following ANTHEM

 

[AZpath]

Locums price often depends on volume.
I know an agency will charge more by practice volume
Average practices in my area get charged around 1200-1300 per day plus expenses by agency.
The locums pathologist is going to get 600-800 per day out of that.
Also, pathologists usually don't get paid for travel days.

1400 per day is high dollar if you are paying a fellow pathologist directly. If I can bypass an agency I offer a 1000 per day.

Not too many gigs in in medicine that pay you less to be a traveling temp.
In other medical fields, people do temp work for extra $.
Not in pathology man.

 

[gbwillner]

I've gotten Locums offers for up to $1200 per day. These also include all expenses incurred including travel and food. Some are year-long commitments, after which they say they will consider hiring full time. Ive had even higher offers, but these were for medical directorships where they only wanted you 2 days a month.

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

Angry Older Peeps Vent Room:

Rirriri-
I hope your science and integrity pays the bills and socks away enough 401K money so you can eat spam instead of kibbles and bits when you are 70.
In the real world when Anthem pays you $14.50 for a colon cancer or lung cancer or melanoma biopsy and you just payed your mechanic $250 to tell you there's nothing wrong with your car you just get a little frustrated and think what a friggin waste of time it all is.

 

[AZpath]

I've gotten Locums offers for up to $1200 per day. These also include all expenses incurred including travel and food. Some are year-long commitments, after which they say they will consider hiring full time. Ive had even higher offers, but these were for medical directorships where they only wanted you 2 days a month.

Not too bad actually. I pay the agency that much.
I know they want to keep 30-40% at least.
It is the only offer I get these days too, although I never asked how much they pay.

 

[MetroPath]

Angry Older Peeps Vent Room:

Rirriri-
I hope your science and integrity pays the bills and socks away enough 401K money so you can eat spam instead of kibbles and bits when you are 70.
In the real world when Anthem pays you $14.50 for a colon cancer or lung cancer or melanoma biopsy and you just payed your mechanic $250 to tell you there's nothing wrong with your car you just get a little frustrated and think what a friggin waste of time it all is.

Agreed that’s ridiculous

 

[rirriri]

I see why some may be anxious and/or disgruntled, but those who are may not want to completely telegraph their identity on an anonymous forum based on their username and/or signature. Doesn't help matters.

Anyway, path worked for me! My job is awesome.

i'm with you. i can totally understand how some people are not satisfied with the field or medicine or their career path; but i am someone who found my place in the medical world and i absolutely love my job and position.

Anyone who says all the other specialties are 98% satisfied have not had many conversations with people in other specialties. There are people in EVERY specialty who are dissatisfied; unfortunately the SDN Pathology section seems to attract a disproportionate number of dissatisfied Pathologists!

We are all in charge of our own satisfaction. To those of you practicing who are not happy; stop feeling like a victim AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. You don't like the system? Get in there and take action. You don't like your career? Change your career path. Blaming others and discouraging others isn't the solution. It may make you feel better temporarily to get some angst out; but it accomplishes nothing for you or anybody else.

I genuinely hope all of you find contentment. Before we are Pathologists we are Doctors and we all have a kinship to some degree and a desire to make sure all of the hard work we have all done (and yes anyone practicing has worked hard) doesn't sink into negativity. Find something or somewhere you love.

If any of you upset want to ever talk to me about your problems i am always open to listen just message me. i am on the side of any student going into Path, resident in training, or attending having problems. This stupidly named "burnout" is a real thing and it's nothing to be ashamed of. 1000s of doctors experience it.

 

[yaah]

Thanks rirriri (blast from the past!) for weighing in.

I agree in general the negativity on these forums is off-putting and depressing. It doesn't really relate to reality. It's kind of like cable news - focus on the trivial or the woeful predictions, or seeing trends in data or experiences that mean the end of all things.

Healthcare is at a crisis right now. To think pathology is any different is naive. People pay too much for everything, and too much of the payments go to "non-value added" costs like administrators, advertising, upkeep, etc. The pressure on those who make the decisions on what to pay for mean that drug prices and medical devices are unlikely to get significant reductions in cost (and if they do, it will seem like a significant reduction only because the increases in the past few years have been so massive). The easiest thing to do is to just keep cutting payments to docs and hospitals, and keep "bundling" things so the fights go on between the components of the bundle.

Pathology will keep changing, the only constant will be lower reimbursements of course. Will it move away from hospitals and large physician group practices, or towards hospitals and large physician group practices?

As far as the job market, I throw up my hands. I don't get it at all. In the past 5 years or so, we have had 8 physicians from our group retire, with one more pending. We have hired 5 and looking for another. The quality of candidates has been, to put it lightly, not optimal. Candidates who can only do one thing. Candidates who can't communicate or answer emails. Candidates who in their intro letter/email talk about how everyone else is inferior to them. Reading these forums it sounds like there are hundreds and hundreds of stellar outstanding candidates out there looking for jobs, or looking to get a better job. We generally get the candidates we want but that has become tougher over the past 5 years. and there have been many fewer options - the candidates we offer all seem to have multiple competing offers. Some are making unrealistic demands like guaranteed income (we are a private partnership, there are no guarantees).

I do find it interesting that there are so many people on these forums who have been posting things like "flee pathology now" for ten years or more. What's the point of this? Sure, post real information and real experience. Be honest. But there is reality, and then there are these forums. Some truths, to be sure, but a lot of nonsense also.

 

[Spikebd]

Thanks rirriri (blast from the past!) for weighing in.

I agree in general the negativity on these forums is off-putting and depressing. It doesn't really relate to reality. It's kind of like cable news - focus on the trivial or the woeful predictions, or seeing trends in data or experiences that mean the end of all things.

Healthcare is at a crisis right now. To think pathology is any different is naive. People pay too much for everything, and too much of the payments go to "non-value added" costs like administrators, advertising, upkeep, etc. The pressure on those who make the decisions on what to pay for mean that drug prices and medical devices are unlikely to get significant reductions in cost (and if they do, it will seem like a significant reduction only because the increases in the past few years have been so massive). The easiest thing to do is to just keep cutting payments to docs and hospitals, and keep "bundling" things so the fights go on between the components of the bundle.

Pathology will keep changing, the only constant will be lower reimbursements of course. Will it move away from hospitals and large physician group practices, or towards hospitals and large physician group practices?

As far as the job market, I throw up my hands. I don't get it at all. In the past 5 years or so, we have had 8 physicians from our group retire, with one more pending. We have hired 5 and looking for another. The quality of candidates has been, to put it lightly, not optimal. Candidates who can only do one thing. Candidates who can't communicate or answer emails. Candidates who in their intro letter/email talk about how everyone else is inferior to them. Reading these forums it sounds like there are hundreds and hundreds of stellar outstanding candidates out there looking for jobs, or looking to get a better job. We generally get the candidates we want but that has become tougher over the past 5 years. and there have been many fewer options - the candidates we offer all seem to have multiple competing offers. Some are making unrealistic demands like guaranteed income (we are a private partnership, there are no guarantees).

I do find it interesting that there are so many people on these forums who have been posting things like "flee pathology now" for ten years or more. What's the point of this? Sure, post real information and real experience. Be honest. But there is reality, and then there are these forums. Some truths, to be sure, but a lot of nonsense also.

I appreciate the perspective!

 

[gbwillner]

Thanks rirriri (blast from the past!) for weighing in.

I agree in general the negativity on these forums is off-putting and depressing. It doesn't really relate to reality. It's kind of like cable news - focus on the trivial or the woeful predictions, or seeing trends in data or experiences that mean the end of all things.

Healthcare is at a crisis right now. To think pathology is any different is naive. People pay too much for everything, and too much of the payments go to "non-value added" costs like administrators, advertising, upkeep, etc. The pressure on those who make the decisions on what to pay for mean that drug prices and medical devices are unlikely to get significant reductions in cost (and if they do, it will seem like a significant reduction only because the increases in the past few years have been so massive). The easiest thing to do is to just keep cutting payments to docs and hospitals, and keep "bundling" things so the fights go on between the components of the bundle.

Pathology will keep changing, the only constant will be lower reimbursements of course. Will it move away from hospitals and large physician group practices, or towards hospitals and large physician group practices?

As far as the job market, I throw up my hands. I don't get it at all. In the past 5 years or so, we have had 8 physicians from our group retire, with one more pending. We have hired 5 and looking for another. The quality of candidates has been, to put it lightly, not optimal. Candidates who can only do one thing. Candidates who can't communicate or answer emails. Candidates who in their intro letter/email talk about how everyone else is inferior to them. Reading these forums it sounds like there are hundreds and hundreds of stellar outstanding candidates out there looking for jobs, or looking to get a better job. We generally get the candidates we want but that has become tougher over the past 5 years. and there have been many fewer options - the candidates we offer all seem to have multiple competing offers. Some are making unrealistic demands like guaranteed income (we are a private partnership, there are no guarantees).

I do find it interesting that there are so many people on these forums who have been posting things like "flee pathology now" for ten years or more. What's the point of this? Sure, post real information and real experience. Be honest. But there is reality, and then there are these forums. Some truths, to be sure, but a lot of nonsense also.

Nice. I agree. The "flee now" narrative applies to basically everything, including life itself. Blaming academia, as if they had some sort of control over these processes is bizzare but fits in with the scapegoat narrative. These posts are like the Fox News of this forum.

Are there issues with the field? Absolutely. Let's talk about what they are, and what are the possible consequences of actions or lack thereof.

 

[deleted314957]

Thanks rirriri (blast from the past!) for weighing in.

I agree in general the negativity on these forums is off-putting and depressing. It doesn't really relate to reality. It's kind of like cable news - focus on the trivial or the woeful predictions, or seeing trends in data or experiences that mean the end of all things.

Healthcare is at a crisis right now. To think pathology is any different is naive. People pay too much for everything, and too much of the payments go to "non-value added" costs like administrators, advertising, upkeep, etc. The pressure on those who make the decisions on what to pay for mean that drug prices and medical devices are unlikely to get significant reductions in cost (and if they do, it will seem like a significant reduction only because the increases in the past few years have been so massive). The easiest thing to do is to just keep cutting payments to docs and hospitals, and keep "bundling" things so the fights go on between the components of the bundle.

Pathology will keep changing, the only constant will be lower reimbursements of course. Will it move away from hospitals and large physician group practices, or towards hospitals and large physician group practices?

As far as the job market, I throw up my hands. I don't get it at all. In the past 5 years or so, we have had 8 physicians from our group retire, with one more pending. We have hired 5 and looking for another. The quality of candidates has been, to put it lightly, not optimal. Candidates who can only do one thing. Candidates who can't communicate or answer emails. Candidates who in their intro letter/email talk about how everyone else is inferior to them. Reading these forums it sounds like there are hundreds and hundreds of stellar outstanding candidates out there looking for jobs, or looking to get a better job. We generally get the candidates we want but that has become tougher over the past 5 years. and there have been many fewer options - the candidates we offer all seem to have multiple competing offers. Some are making unrealistic demands like guaranteed income (we are a private partnership, there are no guarantees).

I do find it interesting that there are so many people on these forums who have been posting things like "flee pathology now" for ten years or more. What's the point of this? Sure, post real information and real experience. Be honest. But there is reality, and then there are these forums. Some truths, to be sure, but a lot of nonsense also.

You get these candidates because this field will literally accept almost anyone. Bottom of the competition barrel.

 

[MetroPath]

Thanks rirriri (blast from the past!) for weighing in.

I agree in general the negativity on these forums is off-putting and depressing. It doesn't really relate to reality. It's kind of like cable news - focus on the trivial or the woeful predictions, or seeing trends in data or experiences that mean the end of all things.

Healthcare is at a crisis right now. To think pathology is any different is naive. People pay too much for everything, and too much of the payments go to "non-value added" costs like administrators, advertising, upkeep, etc. The pressure on those who make the decisions on what to pay for mean that drug prices and medical devices are unlikely to get significant reductions in cost (and if they do, it will seem like a significant reduction only because the increases in the past few years have been so massive). The easiest thing to do is to just keep cutting payments to docs and hospitals, and keep "bundling" things so the fights go on between the components of the bundle.

Pathology will keep changing, the only constant will be lower reimbursements of course. Will it move away from hospitals and large physician group practices, or towards hospitals and large physician group practices?

As far as the job market, I throw up my hands. I don't get it at all. In the past 5 years or so, we have had 8 physicians from our group retire, with one more pending. We have hired 5 and looking for another. The quality of candidates has been, to put it lightly, not optimal. Candidates who can only do one thing. Candidates who can't communicate or answer emails. Candidates who in their intro letter/email talk about how everyone else is inferior to them. Reading these forums it sounds like there are hundreds and hundreds of stellar outstanding candidates out there looking for jobs, or looking to get a better job. We generally get the candidates we want but that has become tougher over the past 5 years. and there have been many fewer options - the candidates we offer all seem to have multiple competing offers. Some are making unrealistic demands like guaranteed income (we are a private partnership, there are no guarantees).

I do find it interesting that there are so many people on these forums who have been posting things like "flee pathology now" for ten years or more. What's the point of this? Sure, post real information and real experience. Be honest. But there is reality, and then there are these forums. Some truths, to be sure, but a lot of nonsense also.

Yeah-I’d like to know how many people apply to one posted position in your practice? I think you previously mentioned you once had 100 people apply to one spot or am I just not remembering correctly?

If those who recruit could tell us how many people apply per spot that could give us an idea of how oversupplied this field is.

 

[MetroPath]

You get these candidates because this field will literally accept almost anyone. Bottom of the competition barrel.

I would have to agree with this. I wouldn’t say everyone is bottom of the barrel but most are. If the field was competitive as derm (aka limited number of spots) many of these folks wouldn’t have matched in pathology.

You don’t have to be a genius to learn and practice derm or pathology it’s just they’ve protected their field.

 

[y2k_free_radical]

Nice. I agree. The "flee now" narrative applies to basically everything, including life itself. Blaming academia, as if they had some sort of control over these processes is bizzare but fits in with the scapegoat narrative. These posts are like the Fox News of this forum.

Are there issues with the field? Absolutely. Let's talk about what they are, and what are the possible consequences of actions or lack thereof.

Who controls or pushes the number of residency positions in pathology ; the CAP,ASCP or ABP;the impending shortage of pathologists propaganda or the pathologists are groovy slogan ???????????? It sure ain't the community pathologists.Futhermore,the non FOX media are just as biased in the opposite direction similar to academic and community pathologists view points.

 

[Med Director New England]

Yeah-I’d like to know how many people apply to one posted position in your practice? I think you previously mentioned you once had 100 people apply to one spot or am I just not remembering correctly?

If those who recruit could tell us how many people apply per spot that could give us an idea of how oversupplied this field is.

In New England > 25 really good applicants will apply to any opening willing to hire new / recent grads in the first day or 2 it is advertised on path outlines.

Partly driven by the large programs within partners but mostly a symptom of the oversupply of path residency slots.

Said it before, I’ll say it again. Every problem mentioned in this forum goes away if organized path eliminates 1/4 training spots.

 

[MetroPath]

The job market in the Boston area must be tight especially with all those training programs there or in any large metropolitan city with multiple programs.

I’m curious as to what Dr Remick has to say in regards to the Boston job market. Have your residents been able to secure a job in the Boston area after training or after one fellowship????

 

[y2k_free_radical]

Thanks rirriri (blast from the past!) for weighing in.

I agree in general the negativity on these forums is off-putting and depressing. It doesn't really relate to reality. It's kind of like cable news - focus on the trivial or the woeful predictions, or seeing trends in data or experiences that mean the end of all things.

Healthcare is at a crisis right now. To think pathology is any different is naive. People pay too much for everything, and too much of the payments go to "non-value added" costs like administrators, advertising, upkeep, etc. The pressure on those who make the decisions on what to pay for mean that drug prices and medical devices are unlikely to get significant reductions in cost (and if they do, it will seem like a significant reduction only because the increases in the past few years have been so massive). The easiest thing to do is to just keep cutting payments to docs and hospitals, and keep "bundling" things so the fights go on between the components of the bundle.

Pathology will keep changing, the only constant will be lower reimbursements of course. Will it move away from hospitals and large physician group practices, or towards hospitals and large physician group practices?

As far as the job market, I throw up my hands. I don't get it at all. In the past 5 years or so, we have had 8 physicians from our group retire, with one more pending. We have hired 5 and looking for another. The quality of candidates has been, to put it lightly, not optimal. Candidates who can only do one thing. Candidates who can't communicate or answer emails. Candidates who in their intro letter/email talk about how everyone else is inferior to them. Reading these forums it sounds like there are hundreds and hundreds of stellar outstanding candidates out there looking for jobs, or looking to get a better job. We generally get the candidates we want but that has become tougher over the past 5 years. and there have been many fewer options - the candidates we offer all seem to have multiple competing offers. Some are making unrealistic demands like guaranteed income (we are a private partnership, there are no guarantees).

I do find it interesting that there are so many people on these forums who have been posting things like "flee pathology now" for ten years or more. What's the point of this? Sure, post real information and real experience. Be honest. But there is reality, and then there are these forums. Some truths, to be sure, but a lot of nonsense also.

That still looks like a reduction of 33 1/3%

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Thanks rirriri (blast from the past!) for weighing in.

I agree in general the negativity on these forums is off-putting and depressing. It doesn't really relate to reality. It's kind of like cable news - focus on the trivial or the woeful predictions, or seeing trends in data or experiences that mean the end of all things.

Healthcare is at a crisis right now. To think pathology is any different is naive. People pay too much for everything, and too much of the payments go to "non-value added" costs like administrators, advertising, upkeep, etc. The pressure on those who make the decisions on what to pay for mean that drug prices and medical devices are unlikely to get significant reductions in cost (and if they do, it will seem like a significant reduction only because the increases in the past few years have been so massive). The easiest thing to do is to just keep cutting payments to docs and hospitals, and keep "bundling" things so the fights go on between the components of the bundle.

Pathology will keep changing, the only constant will be lower reimbursements of course. Will it move away from hospitals and large physician group practices, or towards hospitals and large physician group practices?

As far as the job market, I throw up my hands. I don't get it at all. In the past 5 years or so, we have had 8 physicians from our group retire, with one more pending. We have hired 5 and looking for another. The quality of candidates has been, to put it lightly, not optimal. Candidates who can only do one thing. Candidates who can't communicate or answer emails. Candidates who in their intro letter/email talk about how everyone else is inferior to them. Reading these forums it sounds like there are hundreds and hundreds of stellar outstanding candidates out there looking for jobs, or looking to get a better job. We generally get the candidates we want but that has become tougher over the past 5 years. and there have been many fewer options - the candidates we offer all seem to have multiple competing offers. Some are making unrealistic demands like guaranteed income (we are a private partnership, there are no guarantees).

I do find it interesting that there are so many people on these forums who have been posting things like "flee pathology now" for ten years or more. What's the point of this? Sure, post real information and real experience. Be honest. But there is reality, and then there are these forums. Some truths, to be sure, but a lot of nonsense also.

You say the negativity on this forum is off-putting and depressing and then type 4 paragraphs that are off-putting and depressing.

 

[rirriri]

Yaah is just typing their experiences and that is not negative or offputting. Thanks Yaah great to see you too! 🙂

Vague and overtly pessimistic statements like “flee pathology now” and “path attracts the worst people” are terrible to hear on a forum of Pathologists. The only way to improve a specialty is...to improve a specialty. That means attracting better people, appealing to better people, and more collaboration and positive constructive changes. Talking a bunch of **** incessantly doesn’t create that dialogue for anyone.

I have seen nonstop hiring in the past several years where I am in academia and it’s only accelerating. My experiences point towards a growing job market. The residents I’ve taught have not had difficulty finding attending positions for the most part.

I think as a general rule or ethos; people should say WHY they feel a certain way. It’s very hard for me to read this forum because I see 6 or 7 people continuously writing pure negativity. Almost reads like you are all the same person!! Haha. I get it you don’t like where the field is heading or are having problems in your job. I get it. That doesn’t mean your negativity applies to everyone and it certainly doesn’t give you the right to ruin other younger students and residents’ thoughts by flooding the forum with negativity.

I don’t need this forum anymore. I literally don’t need it. I come here to anonymously guide and help others. I had a tough road getting here and made something of myself. I want others who need guidance to find support too.

If you are an attending physician; please appreciate this forum is for younger people. People who are still developing their interests and career path. Keep that in mind next time you want to throw something casually out there...you are certainly not improving Path attracting better people by doing so.

 

[y2k_free_radical]

Yaah is just typing their experiences and that is not negative or offputting. Thanks Yaah great to see you too! 🙂

Vague and overtly pessimistic statements like “flee pathology now” and “path attracts the worst people” are terrible to hear on a forum of Pathologists. The only way to improve a specialty is...to improve a specialty. That means attracting better people, appealing to better people, and more collaboration and positive constructive changes. Talking a bunch of **** incessantly doesn’t create that dialogue for anyone.

I have seen nonstop hiring in the past several years where I am in academia and it’s only accelerating. My experiences point towards a growing job market. The residents I’ve taught have not had difficulty finding attending positions for the most part.

I think as a general rule or ethos; people should say WHY they feel a certain way. It’s very hard for me to read this forum because I see 6 or 7 people continuously writing pure negativity. Almost reads like you are all the same person!! Haha. I get it you don’t like where the field is heading or are having problems in your job. I get it. That doesn’t mean your negativity applies to everyone and it certainly doesn’t give you the right to ruin other younger students and residents’ thoughts by flooding the forum with negativity.

I don’t need this forum anymore. I literally don’t need it. I come here to anonymously guide and help others. I had a tough road getting here and made something of myself. I want others who need guidance to find support too.

If you are an attending physician; please appreciate this forum is for younger people. People who are still developing their interests and career path. Keep that in mind next time you want to throw something casually out there...you are certainly not improving Path attracting better people by doing so.

My experience in talking with many community pathologists isn't as sanguine about the financial direction or business side of our field as your academic take about its' scientific direction.

 

[MetroPath]

Yaah is just typing their experiences and that is not negative or offputting. Thanks Yaah great to see you too! 🙂

Vague and overtly pessimistic statements like “flee pathology now” and “path attracts the worst people” are terrible to hear on a forum of Pathologists. The only way to improve a specialty is...to improve a specialty. That means attracting better people, appealing to better people, and more collaboration and positive constructive changes. Talking a bunch of **** incessantly doesn’t create that dialogue for anyone.

I have seen nonstop hiring in the past several years where I am in academia and it’s only accelerating. My experiences point towards a growing job market. The residents I’ve taught have not had difficulty finding attending positions for the most part.

I think as a general rule or ethos; people should say WHY they feel a certain way. It’s very hard for me to read this forum because I see 6 or 7 people continuously writing pure negativity. Almost reads like you are all the same person!! Haha. I get it you don’t like where the field is heading or are having problems in your job. I get it. That doesn’t mean your negativity applies to everyone and it certainly doesn’t give you the right to ruin other younger students and residents’ thoughts by flooding the forum with negativity.

I don’t need this forum anymore. I literally don’t need it. I come here to anonymously guide and help others. I had a tough road getting here and made something of myself. I want others who need guidance to find support too.

If you are an attending physician; please appreciate this forum is for younger people. People who are still developing their interests and career path. Keep that in mind next time you want to throw something casually out there...you are certainly not improving Path attracting better people by doing so.

The best applicants go into competitive fields unfortunately like dermatology, orthopedic surgery, plastics UNLESS that person has a sincere interest in becoming a pathologist. Pathology isn’t a sexy field sadly. It’s viewed among medical students as a uncompetitive field.

This is the sad truth and not trying to be negative. Don’t get me wrong there are folks that have great scores that go into Path but more likely if you have great scores and are a good medical student, most would go into a high paying competitive field which Pathology is not.

I met a hard working medical student once who had good scores and he told me that his classmates asked him why he wanted to do Pathology when he could get into a “more competitive field.” I’m not kidding these were his exact words. His classmates were going into dermatology and ophthalmology.

You can’t attract the best and brightest medical students when the field itself isn’t competitive to get into in the first place.

Throughout residency and fellowship most interview candidates are foreign grads, DOs and Carribean grads. You don’t see many allopathic US grads. (I didn’t go to a big name program for residency or fellowship but they both provided me with good training). Many of the mid tier to lower tier programs have many of these types of graduates.

Sorry, I’m Just being realistic.

 

[rirriri]

The best applicants go into competitive fields unfortunately like dermatology, orthopedic surgery, plastics UNLESS that person has a sincere interest in becoming a pathologist. Pathology isn’t a sexy field sadly. It’s viewed among medical students as a uncompetitive field.

This is the sad truth and not trying to be negative. Don’t get me wrong there are folks that have great scores that go into Path but more likely if you have great scores and are a good medical student, most would go into a high paying competitive field which Pathology is not.

I met a hard working medical student once who had good scores and he told me that his classmates asked him why he wanted to do Pathology when he could get into a “more competitive field.” I’m not kidding these were his exact words. His classmates were going into dermatology and ophthalmology.

You can’t attract the best and brightest medical students when the field itself isn’t competitive to get into in the first place.

Throughout residency and fellowship most interview candidates are foreign grads, DOs and Carribean grads. You don’t see many allopathic US grads. (I didn’t go to a big name program for residency or fellowship but they both provided me with good training). Many of the mid tier to lower tier programs have many of these types of graduates.

Sorry, I’m Just being realistic.

Pathologists are the type of people who have NOT done a great job with PR. the field is not explained well, it has not evolved into the direction of patient care as it should have, and its modernization has been slow and hesitant.

There are people like myself who want this changed. When i teach at our medical school i give it the full go; and talk about Pathology before every lecture. I want students to understand Pathology better and not just think of it as some massive study gulp they need for the 'real' medicine. Path IS real medicine. guised under chapters and chapters of explanations. YES i see things wrong with the field....but i'm doing something about it. I'm invested in medical education and in showing people what the field is like.

We will not get great applicants until great students are inspired to dig into pathology. This will NEVER happen with this sad, defeated, victim-like attitude. There was a time when Radiology was THE lowest of the low in medicine. They used technology, PR, and relevance to change that. Pathology is MORE relevant than ever. Every cancer patient's every turn depends on what the Path is; why haven't Pathologists been able to make that stand out front and center?

The problem with Pathology is not within the field itself, it's within the culture. Until we start looking at the fundamentals as positive it's tough to convince others of its merits. Until we stop doing Autopsies ON the field itself and start resuscitation and invigoration we won't see changes. I am all about the invigoration and re-invigoration of Path and i'm sure it will happen and is already happening now.

 

[AZpath]

I thought molecular and personalized medicine would create greater interest. I am sure medical students understand that pathology and lab have a central role. So whats the problem ?

I think Metropath hit the nail on the head. It is just not a competitive specialty. We have become a commodity with all it implies

 

[deleted314957]

Pathologists are the type of people who have NOT done a great job with PR. the field is not explained well, it has not evolved into the direction of patient care as it should have, and its modernization has been slow and hesitant.

There are people like myself who want this changed. When i teach at our medical school i give it the full go; and talk about Pathology before every lecture. I want students to understand Pathology better and not just think of it as some massive study gulp they need for the 'real' medicine. Path IS real medicine. guised under chapters and chapters of explanations. YES i see things wrong with the field....but i'm doing something about it. I'm invested in medical education and in showing people what the field is like.

We will not get great applicants until great students are inspired to dig into pathology. This will NEVER happen with this sad, defeated, victim-like attitude. There was a time when Radiology was THE lowest of the low in medicine. They used technology, PR, and relevance to change that. Pathology is MORE relevant than ever. Every cancer patient's every turn depends on what the Path is; why haven't Pathologists been able to make that stand out front and center?

The problem with Pathology is not within the field itself, it's within the culture. Until we start looking at the fundamentals as positive it's tough to convince others of its merits. Until we stop doing Autopsies ON the field itself and start resuscitation and invigoration we won't see changes. I am all about the invigoration and re-invigoration of Path and i'm sure it will happen and is already happening now.

Ah, the voice of academia. While I am sure your motives are noble and your enthusiasm genuine, you are truly coming from a different world that has very little positive correlation with the rest (not academia) of the field.

 

[gbwillner]

Who controls or pushes the number of residency positions in pathology ; the CAP,ASCP or ABP;the impending shortage of pathologists propaganda or the pathologists are groovy slogan ???????????? It sure ain't the community pathologists.Futhermore,the non FOX media are just as biased in the opposite direction similar to academic and community pathologists view points.

Thanks for proving the point with these statements. One apparent requirement for building an echo chamber is to convince everyone that it is a normal state and that everyone else is also in one, so it must be OK.

 

[gbwillner]

I thought molecular and personalized medicine would create greater interest. I am sure medical students understand that pathology and lab have a central role. So whats the problem ?

I think Metropath hit the nail on the head. It is just not a competitive specialty. We have become a commodity with all it implies

I strongly agree here. Molecular path and precision medicine is the future of cancer care. The issue is that it is not clear pathology owns that space. Without it, this field will go the way of nuclear medicine.

 

[path24]

Telling medical students that there is an oversupply is not a bad thing. Telling them it will impact their entire career (it will still hurt even after you get a job) is not a bad thing. Over training, poor job market, decreased reimbursement, consolidation...etc. Medical students deserve this knowledge. Let them compare to other fields. Pathology does not look good. People can word it on this forum how they like. It is not a strong field. That much is very real.

 

[Dro133]

Med student chiming in with an article I read about how pathologists can provide even more value to health systems in the coming era of value-based care:

PubMed

PubMed® comprises more than 40 million citations for biomedical literature from MEDLINE, life science journals, and online books. Citations may include links to full text content from PubMed Central and publisher web sites.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If there truly is an oversupply and an undervaluation of pathologists, I think trainees interested in path need to realize that and learn new skills (i.e. informatics, data science) that will set them apart and allow them to demonstrate the value they can add to health systems and care teams.

 

[y2k_free_radical]

Pathologists are the type of people who have NOT done a great job with PR. the field is not explained well, it has not evolved into the direction of patient care as it should have, and its modernization has been slow and hesitant.

There are people like myself who want this changed. When i teach at our medical school i give it the full go; and talk about Pathology before every lecture. I want students to understand Pathology better and not just think of it as some massive study gulp they need for the 'real' medicine. Path IS real medicine. guised under chapters and chapters of explanations. YES i see things wrong with the field....but i'm doing something about it. I'm invested in medical education and in showing people what the field is like.

We will not get great applicants until great students are inspired to dig into pathology. This will NEVER happen with this sad, defeated, victim-like attitude. There was a time when Radiology was THE lowest of the low in medicine. They used technology, PR, and relevance to change that. Pathology is MORE relevant than ever. Every cancer patient's every turn depends on what the Path is; why haven't Pathologists been able to make that stand out front and center?

The problem with Pathology is not within the field itself, it's within the culture. Until we start looking at the fundamentals as positive it's tough to convince others of its merits. Until we stop doing Autopsies ON the field itself and start resuscitation and invigoration we won't see changes. I am all about the invigoration and re-invigoration of Path and i'm sure it will happen and is already happening now.

Pathologists are the type of people who have NOT done a great job with PR. the field is not explained well, it has not evolved into the direction of patient care as it should have, and its modernization has been slow and hesitant.

There are people like myself who want this changed. When i teach at our medical school i give it the full go; and talk about Pathology before every lecture. I want students to understand Pathology better and not just think of it as some massive study gulp they need for the 'real' medicine. Path IS real medicine. guised under chapters and chapters of explanations. YES i see things wrong with the field....but i'm doing something about it. I'm invested in medical education and in showing people what the field is like.

We will not get great applicants until great students are inspired to dig into pathology. This will NEVER happen with this sad, defeated, victim-like attitude. There was a time when Radiology was THE lowest of the low in medicine. They used technology, PR, and relevance to change that. Pathology is MORE relevant than ever. Every cancer patient's every turn depends on what the Path is; why haven't Pathologists been able to make that stand out front and center?

The problem with Pathology is not within the field itself, it's within the culture. Until we start looking at the fundamentals as positive it's tough to convince others of its merits. Until we stop doing Autopsies ON the field itself and start resuscitation and invigoration we won't see changes. I am all about the invigoration and re-invigoration of Path and i'm sure it will happen and is already happening now.

In my over 40 years in practice,i don't remember radiologists ever earning less than pathologists on average

 

[y2k_free_radical]

Thanks for proving the point with these statements. One apparent requirement for building an echo chamber is to convince everyone that it is a normal state and that everyone else is also in one, so it must be OK.

Please refute these contentions with facts

 

[yaah]

You say the negativity on this forum is off-putting and depressing and then type 4 paragraphs that are off-putting and depressing.

I'm not depressed.

Depressing to who? The people who seem to think pathology is the only field with issues? Your attitude is that pathology sucks and anyone who enters it is misguided. You all also continuously claim that people have trouble finding good jobs. I am pointing out that health care is a challenging and rapidly changing field right now, and then our (private, well paying) group has had a significant challenge finding competent willing pathologists.

I also seem to be the only private practice pathologist on here who actually likes their job. A job without problems is not a real job. It really is like cable news here.

If being another specialty is so great, take the income hit for 3-4 years and go back and train again in something else. If it's so fantastic to be in another field, that should be worth the hit, shouldn't it? Some of you guys were making these complaints over 10 years ago. By now, you could be 5+ years into your new career and making however many times your current income at better hours and more freedom and whatever. So why didn't you do it? If I truly thought my job was vanishing and my income was going to crash, that's what I would do. Instead it seems like you're trying to eliminate all your potential competition through negative thoughts.

 

[rirriri]

Ah, the voice of academia. While I am sure your motives are noble and your enthusiasm genuine, you are truly coming from a different world that has very little positive correlation with the rest (not academia) of the field.

Reality check: there are waaaaay more hospital and academic Pathologists than private practice. That’s nothing against private practice at all but just know that the “real
World” is more like everybody’s collaborative perspective not just yours.

 

[rirriri]

I strongly agree here. Molecular path and precision medicine is the future of cancer care. The issue is that it is not clear pathology owns that space. Without it, this field will go the way of nuclear medicine.

Path does umbrella it. All of the development has been done with integration to Pathology. Our brand new state of the art molecular lab has been created and is being run by OUR Pathologists.

 

[deleted314957]

Reality check: there are waaaaay more hospital and academic Pathologists than private practice. That’s nothing against private practice at all but just know that the “real
World” is more like everybody’s collaborative perspective not just yours.

I did not say the “real world”. I said the “rest” of the (non
academic) world. There are plenty of us out here and y’all in academia for your entire careers have ZERO idea what private practice entails.

 

[rirriri]

I did not say the “real world”. I said the “rest” of the (non
academic) world. There are plenty of us out here and y’all in academia for your entire careers have ZERO idea what private practice entails.

So instead of simply laying on the negativity why don’t you tell us what it entails. If it’s so bad as some of you describe then private practice must be actual hell; that’s what you all are spreading about it. My feeling is that it’s NOT hell but instead of merely discouraging others why don’t you tell us more about private practice.

Private practice is a minority in Pathology. In order to educate others a full perspective would help instead of just vague criticisms lathered in everybody else

This is student doctor network not private practice sulk room. The majority of residents will not go into private practice; those are the facts in 2019.

 

[AZpath]

Reality check: there are waaaaay more hospital and academic Pathologists than private practice. That’s nothing against private practice at all but just know that the “real
World” is more like everybody’s collaborative perspective not just yours.

What do you mean by "hospital " ?
These are usually private practice not academic.
Very sad and depressing if only academic practice is available . The specialty is truly doomed then.

 

[rirriri]

What do you mean by "hospital " ?
These are usually private practice not academic.
Very sad and depressing if only academic practice is available . The specialty is truly doomed then.

?

Plenty of hospital run, community pathology positions. Doesn’t mean they are private practice. As you can see in any statistical documentation private practice is about 10-20% of the pathology workforce.

Community hospital positions are increasingly becoming affiliated and run by academic programs however; since smaller hospitals often need the affiliations to keep functioning and academic centers get tax breaks for helping them and creating outreach to various communities. There are a small percentage of hospital run Path departments that are true private practice and yes those do exist as well as you said.

There are also large ‘hybrid’ programs like Northwell and Baystate which affiliate to many surrounding centers and leave them largely intact but offer cost savings by consolidating certain technical components.

These changes are not unique to Path. ALL fields of Medicine are undergoing similar changes

 

[rirriri]

 

[deleted314957]

I'm not depressed.

Depressing to who? The people who seem to think pathology is the only field with issues? Your attitude is that pathology sucks and anyone who enters it is misguided. You all also continuously claim that people have trouble finding good jobs. I am pointing out that health care is a challenging and rapidly changing field right now, and then our (private, well paying) group has had a significant challenge finding competent willing pathologists.

I also seem to be the only private practice pathologist on here who actually likes their job. A job without problems is not a real job. It really is like cable news here.

If being another specialty is so great, take the income hit for 3-4 years and go back and train again in something else. If it's so fantastic to be in another field, that should be worth the hit, shouldn't it? Some of you guys were making these complaints over 10 years ago. By now, you could be 5+ years into your new career and making however many times your current income at better hours and more freedom and whatever. So why didn't you do it? If I truly thought my job was vanishing and my income was going to crash, that's what I would do. Instead it seems like you're trying to eliminate all your potential competition through negative thoughts.

Or just retire like i did when it got intolerable (for me) 6 years ago. Happy as a clam. So long and thanks for all the fish.

 

[MetroPath]

I'm not depressed.

Depressing to who? The people who seem to think pathology is the only field with issues? Your attitude is that pathology sucks and anyone who enters it is misguided. You all also continuously claim that people have trouble finding good jobs. I am pointing out that health care is a challenging and rapidly changing field right now, and then our (private, well paying) group has had a significant challenge finding competent willing pathologists.

I also seem to be the only private practice pathologist on here who actually likes their job. A job without problems is not a real job. It really is like cable news here.

If being another specialty is so great, take the income hit for 3-4 years and go back and train again in something else. If it's so fantastic to be in another field, that should be worth the hit, shouldn't it? Some of you guys were making these complaints over 10 years ago. By now, you could be 5+ years into your new career and making however many times your current income at better hours and more freedom and whatever. So why didn't you do it? If I truly thought my job was vanishing and my income was going to crash, that's what I would do. Instead it seems like you're trying to eliminate all your potential competition through negative thoughts.

I have to agree there are some negative folks here who come to vent and add to the negativity of one negative post. I never hear my friends in practice complain or b$tch as much as some of the old folks on here.