Yup, its bad.

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Please guys I want so badly to see some good news about this specialty. Give me anything. Where else can I go to talk to actual (especially freshly-minted) paths about the future? Should I join CAP and try to talk to them through there?

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Can't we make a Pathologists Union or something and deal with payment and employment issues like they do in other professions?
 
Please guys I want so badly to see some good news about this specialty. Give me anything. Where else can I go to talk to actual (especially freshly-minted) paths about the future? Should I join CAP and try to talk to them through there?

There are people here who will talk well about Pathology. What do you want to hear. Forums are anonymous so it’s easier to talk negative and vent than to say something positive.
 
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Please guys I want so badly to see some good news about this specialty. Give me anything. Where else can I go to talk to actual (especially freshly-minted) paths about the future? Should I join CAP and try to talk to them through there?

Are you a med student? If so, try talking to the pathologists in the department. My mentors have all been very positive about the field.
 
Please guys I want so badly to see some good news about this specialty. Give me anything. Where else can I go to talk to actual (especially freshly-minted) paths about the future? Should I join CAP and try to talk to them through there?
Feel free to PM me. A few others have and I will answers any questions you may have.
I have been in both academic and non-academic setting and practiced long enough to know the good, the bad and the ugly


One positive - I really enjoy my job, what I actually do, the impact I have on patient care.
Lab medicine and AP are critical cogs in medicine.

But the concerns raised in this forum are valid. Some of the posters might be offsetting / offensive to others by how they express themselves and a few things have been exaggerated but at the core true.

Read the posts and reach out to those whom seem level headed.
 
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Feel free to PM me. A few others have and I will answers any questions you may have.
I have been in both academic and non-academic setting and practiced long enough to know the good, the bad and the ugly


One positive - I really enjoy my job, what I actually do, the impact I have on patient care.
Lab medicine and AP are critical cogs in medicine.

But the concerns raised in this forum are valid. Some of the posters might be offsetting / offensive to others by how they express themselves and a few things have been exaggerated but at the core true.

Read the posts and reach out to those whom seem level headed.
The reductions by my largest,by far,private payer to 60% medicare rates are real and active.I foresee this as the beginning for other private payers and probably MEDICARE.
 
Please guys I want so badly to see some good news about this specialty. Give me anything. Where else can I go to talk to actual (especially freshly-minted) paths about the future? Should I join CAP and try to talk to them through there?
Plenty of positivity within Pathology. Have no idea what happened to some people here who only come to share negativity. Don’t buy everything you read. Real life is very different.

Path is a great field and like all of medicine; there is variable volatility and a job market depending on choices people make (subspecialty, type of jobs, etc). There’s nothing else in medicine I’d rather be doing.
 
I have to agree there are some negative folks here who come to vent and add to the negativity of one negative post. I never hear my friends in practice complain or b$tch as much as some of the old folks on here.
Old folks do b@tch, but for a good reason. All social progress starts with complaints. Can you imagine no one ever complained about anything? We are probably still live in a society controlled by feudal lords!
 
Old folks do b@tch, but for a good reason. All social progress starts with complaints. Can you imagine no one ever complained about anything? We are probably still live in a society controlled by feudal lords!
Complaining without action or focus is worse than no complaints at all. In fact all that adds is toxicity.

Complaints WITH action and constructive thoughts is what creates progress.
 
Complaining without action or focus is worse than no complaints at all. In fact all that adds is toxicity.

Complaints WITH action and constructive thoughts is what creates progress.
Respectively disagree. Enough complaints will generate action. One complaint is insignificant. When the grumbling is loud enough, they say "do you hear people sing"?
 
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Do you want to hear "good news" or just happy stories? Because I'm wildly happy...but that is tempered with some hesitation about the direction our field is going and the realization nothing is guaranteed and things are trending in a bad direction.

I have 12 weeks vaca; my work week is ~9-4 but at least one or two 10-4 days, and I'm not working a solid 6-8 hours.
I have weekends free except when I'm on call every few months; a few random easy hospital autopsies/yr; I have a great relationship with other physicians in the area; I'm involved in resident and med student education; I make closer to 7 figures than 6, meaning I can fund the $hi+ out of my kids 529s, my IRAs, my investments, i've paid off med school, pay cash for everything, ie NO DEBT/upper echelon Dave Ramsey stuff; I find my work extremely rewarding; I'm annoyed by the same stuff everyone else is but I have crazy autonomy. Yes, I'm happy and I love my job.

But my happiness doesn't equate naivety or carry assumptions that it's going to be like this forever.. And that's what makes people in PP concerned...when you've worked hard to achieve a level of professional, financial and social comfort and it gets eroded piece by piece, whittled away by reimbursement cuts, undermined by lower and lower bidders (whether it's corporate lab bids or hospital admins embracing a continually lower base salary based on national averages), you start to ask why. And as bundled payments enter the picture, good luck.

Aside from continued lobbying efforts by CAP (for whatever they're worth), the most assured way to maintain competitiveness in path is to limit the supply, but the perception of the market is wildly different between academic and community physicians...the former holds the reigns in that regard, and no department in the country would willingly reduce its resident numbers--it's a game: more residents, more fellows, more importance, more clout, more feathers in the hat, less PAs...academic departments could EASILY lose a significant number of residents and be unaffected ASIDE from getting the grossing done.

People like Rirriri talk about the vast numbers of new hires and abundance of applicants...why is that a good thing??!!??!

The looming shortage of pathologists that the academic world touts...what is it based on? expected retirees? Baby boomers? Projected population ages? Every current PP pathologist in the country could handle an additional 10 colon screening biopsies / day (or whatever the projected specimens from this instantaneous patient population will be) and we would welcome it with open arms. We'll gladly take another several thousand accessions/year! But when you're so far removed from the finances of that impact, you couldn't care less.
 
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Agree academics are clueless when it comes to the business/economics side of pathology.

They are there to teach, do research, give lectures and promote pathology as a great field.
 
Agree academics are clueless when it comes to the business/economics side of pathology.

They are there to teach, do research, give lectures and promote pathology as a great field.
What if you just want to work in a plain old hospital lab in a rural/small city setting.
 
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This is going to be an unpopular post and I know I'm inviting a huge ****storm upon myself, but oh well.

Are people supposed to feel sympathy for doctors who are making "closer to 7 figures than 6" working 9-4 with 12 weeks off when CMS or private insurers make cuts to reimbursements? Someone posted a link in the other thread to the former-private-practice-pathologist-turned-senate-candidate who said:

"As a private practice pathologist and owner of an independent laboratory, I vividly remember the feeling on November 1st, 2012 when I saw the “Statline Special Alert” from the College of American Pathologists in my inbox announcing CMS’s 52% cut to the 88305. What a punch to the gut. I lived through the chaos that became my practice. My family endured as we significantly cut back our lifestyle to afford the new normal."

His family had to "significantly cut back to their lifestyle"? Am I supposed to feel bad for this guy or something? What, his family probably had to cut back from the "closer to 7 figures" lifestyle to something more in the 300-400's range? His children might have to settle for driving a VW to school instead of a Beemer? Did he have to sell his boat? Oh the humanity! Is the average working-class American, who's probably working just as hard if not harder for much less remuneration, supposed to feel bad for this guy or something? Did his family endure even an iota as much as the families that get evicted from their homes due to unaffordable healthcare bills? We're talking different planets of suffering here.

Every time I bring up the possibility that maybe physicians get paid too much for some of their services and why can't we be satisfied with making an income that puts us in the top 2-3% rather than the top 1%, the response I get is, "well, what about the admins/business people who are profiting off of our work and making even more money than us?" "But what about our derm and GI colleagues who are raking it in, making a mil for 40 hours of work a week?" Yeah, all of that $hit is messed up too! But we shouldn't use the examples of people who are profiteering more effectively from a broken healthcare system as justification for why we should continue to do the same. Maybe other specialties have better lobbying organizations that stave off reimbursement cuts more effectively than pathology, but reimbursement cuts are eventually going to affect all of medicine, and frankly, it's the right thing to do. High healthcare costs are bad for society, and healthcare organizations have been taking advantage of unregulated costs for a long time. People all over SDN say the words "Universal healthcare" and "bundled payments" like they're talking about the Bogeyman, but I don't think they realize how out of touch they come across as. There's a reason why the vast majority of Americans support a public option.

I have a really difficult time mustering up any level of sympathy whatsoever for wealthy private practice pathologists who aren't making as much as they once did due to reimbursement cuts. If your salary fell from 300k/yr to 100k/yr, sure, I feel for you, but I get the sense that this isn't what's going on. Please, anyone, correct me if any of my assumptions are egregiously misinformed.
 
The looming shortage of pathologists that the academic world touts...what is it based on? expected retirees? Baby boomers? Projected population ages? Every current PP pathologist in the country could handle an additional 10 colon screening biopsies / day (or whatever the projected specimens from this instantaneous patient population will be) and we would welcome it with open arms. We'll gladly take another several thousand accessions/year! But when you're so far removed from the finances of that impact, you couldn't care less.

Has your practice tried to hire people in the last 2-3 years? What was your experience?

Because our group's experience has been WILDLY different from 7-10 years ago. Even 5 years ago, a job ad for a general path who could do hemepath or cytopath led to multiple high-quality applicants. The high quality ones typically still had multiple offers but we could be somewhat choosy. Now we almost feel lucky if we get good candidates for the jobs we advertise. And we are a stable group in a good location without any significant threats at present who get paid well. We get some good candidates but their stipulations are not really acceptable (i.e., I'll only do one thing, or I demand a guaranteed salary even though you're private practice partners and that guarantees nothing, etc).

We ran lean for this past year or so and it was busy. It's not the slide totals that become the problem, it's the extra burdens that come with working at a large hospital.
 
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Has your practice tried to hire people in the last 2-3 years? What was your experience?

Because our group's experience has been WILDLY different from 7-10 years ago. Even 5 years ago, a job ad for a general path who could do hemepath or cytopath led to multiple high-quality applicants. The high quality ones typically still had multiple offers but we could be somewhat choosy. Now we almost feel lucky if we get good candidates for the jobs we advertise. And we are a stable group in a good location without any significant threats at present who get paid well. We get some good candidates but their stipulations are not really acceptable (i.e., I'll only do one thing, or I demand a guaranteed salary even though you're private practice partners and that guarantees nothing, etc).

We ran lean for this past year or so and it was busy. It's not the slide totals that become the problem, it's the extra burdens that come with working at a large hospital.
Do a lot of your colleagues who work in PP or hospitals say the same?
 
Do a lot of your colleagues who work in PP or hospitals say the same?

Yes.
And we have had a few candidates we really liked (enough to offer them an interview or even a job) recently, without fail they have multiple offers. There are more open positions now than there were a few years ago. A lot of these are not great jobs, however, and it does warm my heart a little that jobs that should not be desirable are having a hard time getting filled. But a lot of getting jobs in medicine these days revolves around secondary concerns - many physicians are two-physician households and have to find places that will want both of them in jobs they want. A lot of people want a specific location which may or may not be realistic. And some people want things like part-time work or specific benefits. So when you factor all of these things in, it gets limited more.
 
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Yes.
And we have had a few candidates we really liked (enough to offer them an interview or even a job) recently, without fail they have multiple offers. There are more open positions now than there were a few years ago. A lot of these are not great jobs, however, and it does warm my heart a little that jobs that should not be desirable are having a hard time getting filled. But a lot of getting jobs in medicine these days revolves around secondary concerns - many physicians are two-physician households and have to find places that will want both of them in jobs they want. A lot of people want a specific location which may or may not be realistic. And some people want things like part-time work or specific benefits. So when you factor all of these things in, it gets limited more.
Is there a specific fellowship those candidates have or did they have multiple fellowships?
 
This is going to be an unpopular post and I know I'm inviting a huge ****storm upon myself, but oh well.

Are people supposed to feel sympathy for doctors who are making "closer to 7 figures than 6" working 9-4 with 12 weeks off when CMS or private insurers make cuts to reimbursements? Someone posted a link in the other thread to the former-private-practice-pathologist-turned-senate-candidate who said:

"As a private practice pathologist and owner of an independent laboratory, I vividly remember the feeling on November 1st, 2012 when I saw the “Statline Special Alert” from the College of American Pathologists in my inbox announcing CMS’s 52% cut to the 88305. What a punch to the gut. I lived through the chaos that became my practice. My family endured as we significantly cut back our lifestyle to afford the new normal."

His family had to "significantly cut back to their lifestyle"? Am I supposed to feel bad for this guy or something? What, his family probably had to cut back from the "closer to 7 figures" lifestyle to something more in the 300-400's range? His children might have to settle for driving a VW to school instead of a Beemer? Did he have to sell his boat? Oh the humanity! Is the average working-class American, who's probably working just as hard if not harder for much less remuneration, supposed to feel bad for this guy or something? Did his family endure even an iota as much as the families that get evicted from their homes due to unaffordable healthcare bills? We're talking different planets of suffering here.

Every time I bring up the possibility that maybe physicians get paid too much for some of their services and why can't we be satisfied with making an income that puts us in the top 2-3% rather than the top 1%, the response I get is, "well, what about the admins/business people who are profiting off of our work and making even more money than us?" "But what about our derm and GI colleagues who are raking it in, making a mil for 40 hours of work a week?" Yeah, all of that $hit is messed up too! But we shouldn't use the examples of people who are profiteering more effectively from a broken healthcare system as justification for why we should continue to do the same. Maybe other specialties have better lobbying organizations that stave off reimbursement cuts more effectively than pathology, but reimbursement cuts are eventually going to affect all of medicine, and frankly, it's the right thing to do. High healthcare costs are bad for society, and healthcare organizations have been taking advantage of unregulated costs for a long time. People all over SDN say the words "Universal healthcare" and "bundled payments" like they're talking about the Bogeyman, but I don't think they realize how out of touch they come across as. There's a reason why the vast majority of Americans support a public option.

I have a really difficult time mustering up any level of sympathy whatsoever for wealthy private practice pathologists who aren't making as much as they once did due to reimbursement cuts. If your salary fell from 300k/yr to 100k/yr, sure, I feel for you, but I get the sense that this isn't what's going on. Please, anyone, correct me if any of my assumptions are egregiously misinformed.
You, Rirriri and Yaah all make legitimate points.However,i don't think most community pathologists are near an OCTOPUSPRIME, who may have his tentacles in several revenue streams, or an LA DOC. in earnings.I give away beaucoup free care and i object to BCBS paying me $24 for a breast biopsy,40% less than medicare. The insurance companies,pharmaceutical companies,big labs,hospital chains and CAP make record profits each quarter while paying their CEO's multi millions.Bring on socialized medicine.
 
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Are people supposed to feel sympathy for doctors who are making "closer to 7 figures than 6" working 9-4 with 12 weeks off when CMS or private insurers make cuts to reimbursements? Someone posted a link in the other thread to the former-private-practice-pathologist-turned-senate-candidate who said:
I never asked for sympathy, but if you can extrapolate from the above breakdown, I'm illustrating the reality of getting paid closer to what one is generating revenue wise and working efficiently. It shouldn't prompt you to wonder why this poor schmuck is anything but, rather it should cause you (et al) to ask yourselves why you're working just as hard or harder and getting paid less. And if you honestly don't care because the pros of your job (location, proximity to family, free lunch, sweet lapel pin, seat next to Dumbledore) outweigh the cons (monetary freedom, autonomy, better vaca), consider that those of us who do care about getting reimbursed appropriately don't care as much about the end result as much as we do about the fairness of it--how much you get paid for how much you are putting in...not sure why it's such a bad thing to want to see a return on your work more on par with what you put in...would it be more acceptable to you if I got paid half as much? Because in order for me to get paid less, I'd have to work less or take a job that simply pays less.

His family had to "significantly cut back to their lifestyle"? Am I supposed to feel bad for this guy or something? What, his family probably had to cut back from the "closer to 7 figures" lifestyle to something more in the 300-400's range? His children might have to settle for driving a VW to school instead of a Beemer? Did he have to sell his boat? Oh the humanity! Is the average working-class American, who's probably working just as hard if not harder for much less remuneration, supposed to feel bad for this guy or something? Did his family endure even an iota as much as the families that get evicted from their homes due to unaffordable healthcare bills? We're talking different planets of suffering here.

This is the recurring fallacy encountered time and time again on this forum...it has not a single thing to do with how people spend their money, let alone how much they make. It has to do what how much of it they are keeping versus how much is getting siphoned off, and for what reason. You can't compare your income to "average working class American"....WE ALL KNOW WE'RE DOING WELL, whether we're making 250 or 350 or 850. But the people making 250 aren't doing inherently inferior or quantitatively less work than the people making 850.

Every person in this country has a "lifestyle", some more comfortable than others...but it speaks volumes that the mere verbiage conjures images of import cars and boats and illegitimacy.

Every time I bring up the possibility that maybe physicians get paid too much for some of their services and why can't we be satisfied with making an income that puts us in the top 2-3% rather than the top 1%, the response I get is, "well, what about the admins/business people who are profiting off of our work and making even more money than us?" "But what about our derm and GI colleagues who are raking it in, making a mil for 40 hours of work a week?" Yeah, all of that $hit is messed up too! But we shouldn't use the examples of people who are profiteering more effectively from a broken healthcare system as justification for why we should continue to do the same.

So you equate taking home a larger share of the revenue you generate with "profiteering more effectively"???? That's just masochistic...is the guilt you have for working in the US health system eased by the fact others take advantage of you? Or is your guilt eased when someone else suffers?

This is why people should not go into pathology--sabotage from within.

High healthcare costs are bad for society, and healthcare organizations have been taking advantage of unregulated costs for a long time. People all over SDN say the words "Universal healthcare" and "bundled payments" like they're talking about the Bogeyman, but I don't think they realize how out of touch they come across as.

And you think healthcare costs will just dwindle as payments to physicians gets whittled lower? Less than 1/4 of healthcare spending goes to physicians, and most of that goes toward practice expenses, and doesn't include med school debt payments (which other countries with national health systems don't have to worry about).

You could cut payments to physicians by 25% and the amount by which patient's would see their healthcare bills lowered would be butkus. Literally--there are stats on this, it's like <5%.


I have a really difficult time mustering up any level of sympathy whatsoever for wealthy private practice pathologists who aren't making as much as they once did due to reimbursement cuts. If your salary fell from 300k/yr to 100k/yr, sure, I feel for you, but I get the sense that this isn't what's going on. Please, anyone, correct me if any of my assumptions are egregiously misinformed.

Again, this mentality is the apex of reasons why people should not go into pathology: You not only have to struggle to maintain your practice [because there's no department chair to do it for you], there are people within your field actively working to undermine you because they perceive your career decisions as jaded, illegitimate, greed driven, posh, etc.... The higher you are on the income scale, the less legitimacy you have in justifying it...you're just "profiteering".

Trust me, you're doing a better job convincing people than I am.
 
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My point in divulging my "opulent lifestyle" was not to invite criticism for having little room to complain, because I'm not complaining--like I said, I'm wildly happy. But my happiness is couched with the realization that the particular circumstances that describe a minority of PP jobs (including my own) are quite hard to come by, and there's a reason for that. We can't fight inevitable changes in medicine; everyone is likely going to work harder and get paid less. But within the path field the largest force against smaller, more autonomous, higher-paying PP jobs is not academic centers per se, it's large corporate labs and growing private health care systems, and increasingly pervasive views from payers that our field is simply a commodity of "ancillary services" that can be performed by the lowest bidder.

People want to hear "good news", be "encouraged" about the profession, a counter to all the negativity...what does such positivity look like? The usual "follow your passion" line of encouragement is both an empty guidance counselor platitude and nauseatingly ubiquitous.

Spend time reading the threads from the other specialties on SDN--see the kinds of things they discuss, both job/finance related and academic. There's perhaps less negativity on those forums, but still a non-trivial amount of info on salaries/finance--it's not an insignificant factor in your career/life, and you're not "profiteering" for placing it higher on your priority list than international meetings and a monogrammed white coat. How many people--inside medicine or in the public--are disinterested in obtaining the best "lifestyle" they can? Altruism doesn't necessitate ignorance about the value of your work.

Ultimately people will choose pathology if they value the work and lifestyle, and if they're confident in themselves and weigh the pros of the work/lifestyle over the cons of finding a job that maximizes work/lifestyle. But like others have said, few specialties in medicine are free from these challenges, and regardless of the field you choose it's likely going to look drastically different in 20 years.
 
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You, Rirriri and Yaah all make legitimate points.However,i don't think most community pathologists are near an OCTOPUSPRIME, who may have his tentacles in several revenue streams, or an LA DOC. in earnings.I give away beaucoup free care and i object to BCBS paying me $24 for a breast biopsy,40% less than medicare. The insurance companies,pharmaceutical companies,big labs,hospital chains and CAP make record profits each quarter while paying their CEO's multi millions.Bring on socialized medicine.

You have no idea what I make. Nor am I going to tell you. Like most partner-level private paths, my income will fluctuate year to year based on volume, contracts, group size, all kinds of things. But I would not trade my job for anyone's on this forum, even if they happen to make more than me. Bear in mind also that many professionals (including pathologists) make money in other ways through investing or consulting or whatever.
 
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Like most partner-level private paths, my income will fluctuate year to year based on volume, contracts, group size, all kinds of things. But I would not trade my job for anyone's on this forum, even if they happen to make more than me. Bear in mind also that many professionals (including pathologists) make money in other ways through investing or consulting or whatever.
Very true.
My income can vary wildly and only a portion of that has to do with medicine-related revenue, and it's no secret what people make...just look at the MGMA data.
 
Im completely abandoning income as any measure of success. Im surrounded by allegedly intelligent physicians who make relative fortunes and live paycheck to paycheck.

My new metric is one of pure NET WORTH VS. AGE AND CAREER ADJUSTED PEER GROUP MEANS.

Meaning you could be balling it out in Beverly Hills next to a well known pathologist who's name rhymes with Dasne and be putting every paycheck towards an absurd lifestyle vs. some guy in middle of nowhere Tennessee working at a VA gig who has 7 figs tucked and there is no comparison whatsoever as to who is doing it better, who is smarter and who is "winning."

This means you better all have: rentals providing passive income streams, multiple professional streams of income, be constantly branching into new niches AND keep your practice overhead absolutely at a bare minimum on top of the obviously bare bones plan of maxing your retirement plan each and every year.
 
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