Gunners Anonymous

Gunny · Nov 13, 2004

Hey

I've been lurking around these boards for months now, and one thing I don't understand is the stigma associated with so called 'gunners'. What's wrong with wanting to do well?

So let me be the first to stand up and say

"My name's Ryan, and I'm a gunner"!

I want to do well. I want to be in the top five of my graduating class, and have my pick of residencies. I want to do well in each and every exam, and I'll do whatever it takes. Study, work hard, you name it. We're all in competition in here - anyone who says otherwise is just kidding themselves. Plus, when I look around the room each and everyone in here is competitive, by virtue of the fact that they got into one of the country's top med schools. I have made so many good friends, but when it comes to all things academic, it's every man for himself.

What's wrong with wanting to do well?

So, let's end this Anti-Gunner Sentiment....
:horns:

Gunners, I say thee Yay! :horns:

tupac_don · Nov 13, 2004

Gunny said:
Hey

I've been lurking around these boards for months now, and one thing I don't understand is the stigma associated with so called 'gunners'. What's wrong with wanting to do well?

So let me be the first to stand up and say

"My name's Ryan, and I'm a gunner"!

I want to do well. I want to be in the top five of my graduating class, and have my pick of residencies. I want to do well in each and every exam, and I'll do whatever it takes. Study, work hard, you name it. We're all in competition in here - anyone who says otherwise is just kidding themselves. Plus, when I look around the room each and everyone in here is competitive, by virtue of the fact that they got into one of the country's top med schools. I have made so many good friends, but when it comes to all things academic, it's every man for himself.

What's wrong with wanting to do well?

So, let's end this Anti-Gunner Sentiment....
Gunners, I say thee Yay!

From what I know, gunners are those who want to do well at anothers expense. They lie, won't share all tests, hypercompetitive and don't care who they step over. They will tell people wrong info, just to do better than the other guy. Now there is nothing wrong with being competitive, just don't step over others to get to your goal. I too am very competitive, but I don't step over others to do well. But you are right in med school, everyone is hypercompetitive. To even make it to med school everyone has to be competitive. Good luck gunner.

efex101 · Nov 13, 2004

the above poster stated it exactly. One of my best friends here in medical school is doing extremely well and is helpful to all and shares everything. Gunners are always the first to answer questions w/o letting anyone even have time to speak, they are arrogant and condescending. There is a big difference btw someone who is kicking arse yet is humble and helps his fellow students with someone that is kicking arse and acting like a demi-God...

The Remix · Nov 13, 2004

Medicine and the medical field doesn't work the way a gunner wants it too. And thank God for that.

Sina · Nov 13, 2004

**** gunners

lilmo · Nov 13, 2004

gunners suck. nobody likes them. just because you are smart does not mean you should make your classmates look stupid.

velo · Nov 13, 2004

Hi, my name is velo, and I'm a gunner-hater

"hi velo!"

phoenixsupra · Nov 13, 2004

Gunny said:
Hey

I've been lurking around these boards for months now, and one thing I don't understand is the stigma associated with so called 'gunners'. What's wrong with wanting to do well?

So let me be the first to stand up and say

"My name's Ryan, and I'm a gunner"!

I want to do well. I want to be in the top five of my graduating class, and have my pick of residencies. I want to do well in each and every exam, and I'll do whatever it takes. Study, work hard, you name it. We're all in competition in here - anyone who says otherwise is just kidding themselves. Plus, when I look around the room each and everyone in here is competitive, by virtue of the fact that they got into one of the country's top med schools. I have made so many good friends, but when it comes to all things academic, it's every man for himself.

What's wrong with wanting to do well?

So, let's end this Anti-Gunner Sentiment....
Gunners, I say thee Yay!

Ryan, you're being a tad naive. Unless you're in a really crappy school, being in the top five does mean that you are going without anything resembling a life for four years. After that you wont be as balanced a person as you could be. The top five in my school can be easily picked out of a crowd by their chronic tension and hunched over scholers posture. Their mere presence tends to make people uneasy. Patients tend not to like them and other students tend to triangulate all their negative energy on them. You're kidding yourself if you think that all that minutia is necessary to be a good doctor. Many many people in your class feel deeply that this sort of person shouldn't be selected for medschool in the first place. Medschool can be nasty and if you're identified as being in that group people will go out of their way to make life hard for you.

Don't analyze the "gunner" label too much. It's mostly bs but it is a bad thing to be pinned with. Just think of it as the medschool equivalent of the word "a$$hole". You don't want it to be applied to you. If you really do want to be in the top five then go ahead. But a word to the wise. Drop the crucade and keep your mouth shut. The energy you spend defending that label is energy you will need for your studies. I aggree that there is nothing wrong with studying hard in medschool. But top five is the biggest time investment you could possibly make. I urge you to spend some of whatever free time you will have keeping fit and learning to relax. Otherwise your use will be limited to being a walking reference book and you will be an ineffective doctor no matter what residency program you get into. I know of quite a few useless docs with excellent credentials.

And it may well be that academically it's every man for themselves at the moment. But that's not the way it has to be. And it's not the direction things are going. Sure, don't let others fool you into not studying with all that gunner scapegoating crap. But ease up on this nonsense and don't waste your energy defending a phantom. If you really must think of yourself as a "gunner" then be a stealth gunner at least and give some consideration to picking your battles a little better. 😉

scootad. · Nov 13, 2004

I disagree with the above if you trying for a hypercompetitive field. My sister graduated #1 in her medical school class and while it may be true that she studied extremely hard to accomplish this feat and sacrificed some, she came out of it, the way she came in. A well rounded person. You see, she had already shed off her party girl days and had a goal to accomplish. To get that derm residency.

And guess what? She got it. And she did not become any less effective of a physician because of the process. In fact, she met and married the man of her life in medical school and I know she will be a great doctor.

The people who hate gunners are just jealous

velo · Nov 13, 2004

scootad. said:
The people who hate gunners are just jealous

and people who defend gunners don't understand the term.

If your sister finished #1 in her class while being a decent human being, helping her classmates, and didn't try to succeed even at the expense of her peers...then she's a superstar, not a gunner.

scootad. · Nov 13, 2004

she certainly did not sabotage anyone in the process but didnt help anyone except her fiancee either.

The Remix · Nov 13, 2004

scootad. said:
I disagree with the above if you trying for a hypercompetitive field. My sister graduated #1 in her medical school class and while it may be true that she studied extremely hard to accomplish this feat and sacrificed some, she came out of it, the way she came in. A well rounded person. You see, she had already shed off her party girl days and had a goal to accomplish. To get that derm residency.

And guess what? She got it. And she did not become any less effective of a physician because of the process. In fact, she met and married the man of her life in medical school and I know she will be a great doctor.

The people who hate gunners are just jealous

If your sis graduated #1 and came out well rounded then she wasn't a gunner. This label means much more than just studying hard and doing well. It also involves stepping over others, being arrogant, patronizing, etc. Gunners can't work effectively in teams because they hate to listen to anyone or anything other than themself. Thus they make horrible docs. Congrats to your sis.

phoenixsupra · Nov 13, 2004

scootad. said:
she certainly did not ..... help anyone except her fiancee either.

Great!, another doctor who doesn't like to help people. 🙄 Good job she's just going into derm. ha ha. Hate to say it but your sis sounds like and a$$hole. I'd be willing to bet her "party days" were overstated. 😉

velocyclopedia said:
and people who defend gunners don't understand the term.

EXACTLY, what's next. A post defending the virtues of being a turdhead? 😀

scootad. · Nov 13, 2004

LOL! I'm sorry but why should she have gone out of her way to "help" out her classmates. Thats ridiculous, they made it to med school, if they dont know what to do thats their problem!

And you should not make assumptions about someone you dont know 😉

Dr. Rosenrose · Nov 13, 2004

Gunners do not step over their class mates they step on them. This is the distinction between gunner and just a good student.

phoenixsupra · Nov 13, 2004

scootad. said:
LOL! I'm sorry but why should she have gone out of her way to "help" out her classmates. Thats ridiculous, they made it to med school, if they dont know what to do thats their problem!

Try swaping the word colleagues for classmates and see how you're making big sis sound. 😉

scootad. said:
And you should not make assumptions about someone you dont know. she was a HUGE partier and I was the bookworm of the family (until mid college that is).

Actually, you are asking us to make assumptions about your sister based on your account of her. Your admiration for your big sis is sweet. She may have seemed real wild to her bookworm little sib. I like how you say you were a bookworm all your life untill a measly two years ago when you became a totally different person. The fact that you don't understand the G-term but identify with it anyway seems to indicate that your "transformation" was less than total. Grow up.... and try speaking for yourself. I bet your sis can do that at least. 🙂

If you identify yourself as a gunner that's fine. Just don't expect people to like you for it.

scootad. · Nov 13, 2004

no I didnt change, she did. 😉 And gimme a break with this colleagues B.S. I bet you spend most of your time "tutoring" yer fellow colleagues

phoenixsupra · Nov 13, 2004

scootad. said:
no I didnt change, she did. 😉 And gimme a break with this colleagues B.S. I bet you spend most of your time "tutoring" yer fellow colleagues

Actually you did say you changed. Chill out and read your own post. I think it's sad that you can't even believe that anyone would help a colleague. Have you ever even been on a team? If you take your head out of those books for a second and look around you'll see that many people co-operate well together and enjoy each others company. I did a good portion of my med school study with friends. It's more effective and much less boring. Please try to get past this paranoid attitude of yours before you get to the wards. Otherwise you'll just be a walking stink on every team you join. Really, rethink your attitude. 😉

Iamajew · Nov 13, 2004

hahahaha

scootad. · Nov 13, 2004

honey, im done with my clinical rotations 😉

scootad. · Nov 13, 2004

and good for you that you liked studying in groups! but thats not the issue. you imply that one is obliged to help out one's fellow med students with their studies which i find absolutely absurd.

phoenixsupra · Nov 13, 2004

scootad. said:
honey, im done with my clinical rotations 😉

Good for you. Just out of curiousity, what specialty are you going into?

EDIT: nice doublepost scootie. Ever hear of the edit function? Helping others isn't an "obligation". You won't find it in any rulebook. It's just part of being a decent person. 😉 Good luck. 🙂

scootad. · Nov 13, 2004

rads [dont laugh :laugh:

]

Hoo\/er · Nov 13, 2004

velocypedalist said:
Hi, my name is velo, and I'm a gunner-hater

"hi velo!"

LOL velo, I'm with ya.

Gunners suck, get a life.

phoenixsupra · Nov 13, 2004

scootad. said:
rads [dont laugh ]

Hilarious

Sina · Nov 13, 2004

phoenixsupra said:
Actually you did say you changed. Chill out and read your own post. I think it's sad that you can't even believe that anyone would help a colleague. Have you ever even been on a team? If you take your head out of those books for a second and look around you'll see that many people co-operate well together and enjoy each others company. I did a good portion of my med school study with friends. It's more effective and much less boring. Please try to get past this paranoid attitude of yours before you get to the wards. Otherwise you'll just be a walking stink on every team you join. Really, rethink your attitude. 😉

this person speaks the truth.
its a shame that i cant find anyone to study with at my school. everyone studies by themselves. its pretty frustrating. ive studied in groups my whole life.

velo · Nov 13, 2004

scootad. said:
and good for you that you liked studying in groups! but thats not the issue. you imply that one is obliged to help out one's fellow med students with their studies which i find absolutely absurd.

not obliged...but its just a decent thing to do. For example, here when we have tests coming up we can usually count on a bunch of mass emails from our classmates sending out review sheets they wrote for their own benifit, old exams they found, useful websites they stubbled across, etc...

just like the anti-gunner environment...

kappasigMD41 · Nov 14, 2004

scootad. said:
I disagree with the above if you trying for a hypercompetitive field. My sister graduated #1 in her medical school class and while it may be true that she studied extremely hard to accomplish this feat and sacrificed some, she came out of it, the way she came in. A well rounded person. You see, she had already shed off her party girl days and had a goal to accomplish. To get that derm residency.

And guess what? She got it. And she did not become any less effective of a physician because of the process. In fact, she met and married the man of her life in medical school and I know she will be a great doctor.

The people who hate gunners are just jealous

I am sooo glad that our smartest students go into the most meaningless specialties. These should be the peeps to cure aids or cancer,etc. Instead they chose the cush lifestyle. Sorry, I have just always found this to be a shame. Before you start flaming me with the sanctimonious stuff about how important derm is, put it in your pocket and save it for a rainy day. Of course I realize that the world needs dermatologists and they certainly are responsible for saving lives. It just seems that these people could put their talents to a better use.

scootad. · Nov 14, 2004

Depends how you define talent. I would argue that those going into derm are not necessarily all that brilliant or talented. But they have an extremely good work ethic, are perfectionists, have tunnel-vision focus, and yes are quite a bit obsessive compulsive. These qualities are not really the ones that make a great bench researcher or future Nobel prize winner.

Gunny · Nov 14, 2004

phoenixsupra said:
If you really must think of yourself as a "gunner" then be a stealth gunner at least....

Oh, but I am...

bwahahahaaaaaa

SarahGM · Nov 14, 2004

kappasigMD41 said:
I am sooo glad that our smartest students go into the most meaningless specialties. These should be the peeps to cure aids or cancer,etc. Instead they chose the cush lifestyle. Sorry, I have just always found this to be a shame. Before you start flaming me with the sanctimonious stuff about how important derm is, put it in your pocket and save it for a rainy day. Of course I realize that the world needs dermatologists and they certainly are responsible for saving lives. It just seems that these people could put their talents to a better use.

Ugh. This is just like my friend (also a student) preaching to me "how much more good I could be doing" when I told him I want to be a pediatrician. And "how many people want my spot at Columbia right now." As if people who want to be neurosurgeons are more deserving.

Come on. Consider the fact that the girl was working her butt off to fulfill HER dream. Maybe she had wanted to be a dermatologist since she was a little girl. Why the heck should she bust her @$$ just to fulfill someone else's wishes? Are her happiness and her dreams less important just because she's smart? Since when did higher intelligence = debt to society?

PaddyofNine · Nov 14, 2004

SarahGM said:
Since when did higher intelligence = debt to society?

Well, there has to be some kind of repayment to society! I'm not saying you're wrong, SarahGM, but your status as a doctor is, after all, a product of the education that you received at the hands of society.

Just like you owe the bank a debt in financial terms for the education you received, don't you owe a similar debt (at least, some measure of a one) to the society that provided you with one of the best medical educations in the world?

I'm not arguing that a dermatologist is of lesser value to society than a neurologist - you only need to look at the rates of skin cancer to see the need is growing - but as a doctor rather than a specialist, you have some obligation, no?

Amicus · Nov 14, 2004

In a capitalitic society value is DEFINED by what you can get paid for something. It might not seem logical but the fact that people will pay 5K for a nose job and complain about a 10 dollar co-pay to see their primary care doc tells you all you need to know. People chasing money (legally) are by definition chasing the thing of the greatest good. For if that thing wasnt good for people, people would not pay so much for it. People getting tooth veneers obviously value them to the tune of 20K or they wouldnt be paying the money.

phoenixsupra · Nov 14, 2004

Amicus said:
In a capitalitic society value is DEFINED by what you can get paid for something. It might not seem logical but the fact that people will pay 5K for a nose job and complain about a 10 dollar co-pay to see their primary care doc tells you all you need to know. People chasing money (legally) are by definition chasing the thing of the greatest good. For if that thing wasnt good for people, people would not pay so much for it. People getting tooth veneers obviously value them to the tune of 20K or they wouldnt be paying the money.

OK, by that reasoning porn is the most valuable thing on the internet. 😀

tupac_don · Nov 14, 2004

PaddyofNine said:
Well, there has to be some kind of repayment to society! I'm not saying you're wrong, SarahGM, but your status as a doctor is, after all, a product of the education that you received at the hands of society.

Just like you owe the bank a debt in financial terms for the education you received, don't you owe a similar debt (at least, some measure of a one) to the society that provided you with one of the best medical educations in the world?

I'm not arguing that a dermatologist is of lesser value to society than a neurologist - you only need to look at the rates of skin cancer to see the need is growing - but as a doctor rather than a specialist, you have some obligation, no?

I completely disagree with you. I mean becoming a dermatologists, gives back to society don't kid yourself. After 9 years of schooling any way you look at it person is giving back to society. Why should someone suffer doing something they don't like to "give back to society". Since this a democratic society, anyone can pick and choose what they do.

Tiki · Nov 14, 2004

scootad. said:
and good for you that you liked studying in groups! but thats not the issue. you imply that one is obliged to help out one's fellow med students with their studies which i find absolutely absurd.

I can't believe they let you in medical school with your attitude. Thank god you are going into Rads, for the sake of your future patients. I do kind of feel bad for your future co-workers though, specifically those that will work below you.

thackl · Nov 14, 2004

SarahGM said:
Ugh. This is just like my friend (also a student) preaching to me "how much more good I could be doing" when I told him I want to be a pediatrician. And "how many people want my spot at Columbia right now." As if people who want to be neurosurgeons are more deserving.

Come on. Consider the fact that the girl was working her butt off to fulfill HER dream. Maybe she had wanted to be a dermatologist since she was a little girl. Why the heck should she bust her @$$ just to fulfill someone else's wishes? Are her happiness and her dreams less important just because she's smart? Since when did higher intelligence = debt to society?

Every year at my school, many from the top 10 go into ped's, rural family med, etc. There are huge contributions to be made here and you get to touch many patients at many levels. We just had a guest speaker who was top of the class and like 99th% in every standardized test he ever took and doing rural family med in Childress, TX. He's almost sold me on it :scared:

scootad. · Nov 14, 2004

Tiki said:
I can't believe they let you in medical school with your attitude. Thank god you are going into Rads, for the sake of your future patients. I do kind of feel bad for your future co-workers though, specifically those that will work below you.

oh get over yerself. nowhere in yer post did you refute my point. med school is all about survival, sure its a great thing if you have the time to be on top of everything and then find the time to supply yer classmates with study aids. but in reality most people just wanna cram the stuff and move on. also these people made it to med school, most already know what it takes to get through

PaddyofNine · Nov 15, 2004

tupac_don said:
I completely disagree with you. I mean becoming a dermatologists, gives back to society don't kid yourself. After 9 years of schooling any way you look at it person is giving back to society. Why should someone suffer doing something they don't like to "give back to society". Since this a democratic society, anyone can pick and choose what they do.

Um, I specificily stated in my post that I meant that you have to give back to society as a doctor, and that doesn't depend on which speciality you go into. Of course dermatologists, rural practitioners, etc are just as important as neurologists and cancer researchers!

The whole point of my post was that whatever field a doctor chooses to practice in, they are giving back to society!

velo · Nov 15, 2004

phoenixsupra said:
OK, by that reasoning porn is the most valuable thing on the internet. 😀

hahaha, good point!

ddmo · Nov 15, 2004

For some reason, this post kind of reminds me of a joke I was once told by a prominant surgeon.

"You can find out what specialty a person will do by sticking them in a small dark room. The ob/gyns are the ones who are crying in the corner, the rads are the ones who like being in there, and the orthos are the ones who broke down the door."

ishaninatte · Nov 16, 2004

phoenixsupra said:
Ryan, you're being a tad naive. Unless you're in a really crappy school, being in the top five does mean that you are going without anything resembling a life for four years. After that you wont be as balanced a person as you could be. The top five in my school can be easily picked out of a crowd by their chronic tension and hunched over scholers posture. Their mere presence tends to make people uneasy. Patients tend not to like them and other students tend to triangulate all their negative energy on them. You're kidding yourself if you think that all that minutia is necessary to be a good doctor. Many many people in your class feel deeply that this sort of person shouldn't be selected for medschool in the first place. Medschool can be nasty and if you're identified as being in that group people will go out of their way to make life hard for you.

Don't analyze the "gunner" label too much. It's mostly bs but it is a bad thing to be pinned with. Just think of it as the medschool equivalent of the word "a$$hole". You don't want it to be applied to you. If you really do want to be in the top five then go ahead. But a word to the wise. Drop the crucade and keep your mouth shut. The energy you spend defending that label is energy you will need for your studies. I aggree that there is nothing wrong with studying hard in medschool. But top five is the biggest time investment you could possibly make. I urge you to spend some of whatever free time you will have keeping fit and learning to relax. Otherwise your use will be limited to being a walking reference book and you will be an ineffective doctor no matter what residency program you get into. I know of quite a few useless docs with excellent credentials.

And it may well be that academically it's every man for themselves at the moment. But that's not the way it has to be. And it's not the direction things are going. Sure, don't let others fool you into not studying with all that gunner scapegoating crap. But ease up on this nonsense and don't waste your energy defending a phantom. If you really must think of yourself as a "gunner" then be a stealth gunner at least and give some consideration to picking your battles a little better. 😉

You just know everything don't you.

ishaninatte · Nov 16, 2004

PaddyofNine said:
Well, there has to be some kind of repayment to society! I'm not saying you're wrong, SarahGM, but your status as a doctor is, after all, a product of the education that you received at the hands of society.

Just like you owe the bank a debt in financial terms for the education you received, don't you owe a similar debt (at least, some measure of a one) to the society that provided you with one of the best medical educations in the world?

I'm not arguing that a dermatologist is of lesser value to society than a neurologist - you only need to look at the rates of skin cancer to see the need is growing - but as a doctor rather than a specialist, you have some obligation, no?

Yikes! I cannot believe anyone would actually write this!! Go read some Ayn Rand will ya.

MErc44 · Nov 16, 2004

I would feel comfortable saying that you have an obligation if med school were free in this country and admissions were extremely easy to obtain. But it aint and they aren't, so I will do what I want, and if that means being a plastic surgeon in beverly hills performing surgery on actresses and actors who don't need it then thats waht I'm going to do. I think most people who do serve those in need really want to do that. This idea of trying to make people feel guilty for doing what they want is pathetic.

kappasigMD41 · Nov 17, 2004

MErc44 said:
I would feel comfortable saying that you have an obligation if med school were free in this country and admissions were extremely easy to obtain. But it aint and they aren't, so I will do what I want, and if that means being a plastic surgeon in beverly hills performing surgery on actresses and actors who don't need it then thats waht I'm going to do. I think most people who do serve those in need really want to do that. This idea of trying to make people feel guilty for doing what they want is pathetic.

I don't think it is a matter of making others feel guilty. I think the point trying to be made is that as physicians, we do have some liablility to advance the field of medicine. Unfortunately, many of us chose our specialty more on lifestyle than anything else. This trend seems to have gotten worse over the past few years, as specialties such as derm and rads have become increasingly difficult to get into, while the standards for surgery and IM have decreased. It is just a little frightening to know that many of best and brightest opt for cush jobs. I suppose it is wrong to completely blame them, I mean, who wouldn't want to make 350K for working 4 days a week. I think a lot of the blame falls on the system. I realize there are many acceptions- a guy at my school got 266 on step 1 and is going into FP. However, the trend remains, and all I am saying is that it is unfortunate.

phoenixsupra · Nov 17, 2004

ishaninatte said:
You just know everything don't you.

Why, thank you. 😀 ha ha 🙄

ishaninatte · Nov 17, 2004

phoenixsupra said:
Why, thank you. 😀 ha ha 🙄

I was hoping you'd sense the irony....husss..... You're Welcome. 😍

azzarah · Nov 18, 2004

I hate gunners, but I tend to agree with Scootad on one thing...there is no obligation to help your classmates if you don't want to. It would be nice if you did, but you don't have to. I have helped so many people in our class, but they never came to my rescue when I was struggling last year. Why should I have to help any of them again?
Don't kid yourself people! Those 100 pages of notes that your classmates send out before exams are meant to psych you out not too help you! :laugh:

If I could get into derm or rad, I would go in a heart beat. I am just not cut out for breathing, eating, and drinking medicine 365, 24, 7. I want to help my patients, but I also want to have a good lifestyle (and I believe there is no shame in wanting that as some of you imply).

Chemguync · Nov 18, 2004

scootad. said:
LOL! I'm sorry but why should she have gone out of her way to "help" out her classmates. Thats ridiculous, they made it to med school, if they dont know what to do thats their problem!

And you should not make assumptions about someone you dont know 😉

scootad. said:
no I didnt change, she did. 😉 And gimme a break with this colleagues B.S. I bet you spend most of your time "tutoring" yer fellow colleagues

wow, I think I actually just caught cancer from reading that.

snowinter · Nov 18, 2004

all med studnets are gunners; by gunner= work hard; motivated by others knowing more than you etc.

the worst ones are the LIARS who pretend they dont study and aren't reading who have really read everythign 3-4 times.. but pretend not to -- just so they look super smart and you look super dumb for sitting in the library reading --while they hide in their house and read.

u know? so i agree: we should all admit we study hard. not a single one of us would be here otherwise.

all med studnets are gunners. get over it.

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