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Does the opening of Touro make you worry about the future of dentistry?

  • It most definitely does. How could it not?

    Votes: 60 32.6%
  • Maybe a little bit

    Votes: 60 32.6%
  • No, because we need more dentists

    Votes: 20 10.9%
  • Definitely not, everybody and their mother deserves a chance to be accepted to dental school

    Votes: 44 23.9%

  • Total voters
    184

allantois

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Yes, but no more than tuition at private schools.
 
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darknightzzz

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64k tuition each year (no fees yet) is reasonable. lol this is more than the tuition of my 4 year undergrad combined (i didn't even attend the cheapest public undergrad)

I dont know if 10 years from now, tuition will climb up to 80k. then massive dental school shutdown happens again.

more public dental school should open, albiet they take in less amount of students. no one will give a fuss if public dental schools funded by the government are open
 

Incis0r

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Vote in the poll, and let me know what you guys think! Pre-dents, dental students, residents, and practicing dentists all welcome to weigh in!

Not worried at all about the opening of Touro.

I am concerned about the high cost of dental education, however.
 
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darknightzzz

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Not worried at all about the opening of Touro.

I am concerned about the high cost of dental education, however.

you can focus on OOS schools that grants in state after a year (Uconn, buffalo, UNLV, etc) those will give you below 300k for a dental education that you want ;)
 

Incis0r

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you can focus on OOS schools that grants in state after a year (Uconn, buffalo, UNLV, etc) those will give you below 300k for a dental education that you want ;)

Thanks buddy! Those three are on my list. Any more you recommend?
 
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Typical Average Student

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I am concerned about the number of dental schools opening, no one expected Touro to open until it was stumbled upon mid last year. We were expecting Bluefield but got Touro.

We are expecting 5 more new schools to open including Texas Tech, UNM, ETSU, Western U, and Wisconsin. The game changer is that consumer habits are changing, decrease insurance reimbursement, expansion of corporate dental centers, higher student debt, fewer associate positions, and dentists are practising nearly a decade longer than before.

The opening of Touro is especially concerning in that if many did not expect the opening of Touro, it makes you wonder how easy it could possibly be to open a dental school and charge ridiculous amount of tuition and fees to oversaturate the field of dentistry.
 
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tooth knockn

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No proof of saturation of dentists across the united states.... You guys want the perfect world... graduate and go back to your hometown and work and make money. . . . . there are "Hometowns" with residents less privileged than you . .. . WHOM NEED DENTAL CARE.....

PROVE me wrong


:)
 
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tooth knockn

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I agree with INCISOR COSTS are too high for tuitions .. . . . where is the limit?
 

hellofuturedentists

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No proof of saturation of dentists across the united states.... You guys want the perfect world... graduate and go back to your hometown and work and make money. . . . . there are "Hometowns" with residents less privileged than you . .. . WHOM NEED DENTAL CARE.....

PROVE me wrong


:)
When people graduate from Touro, do you think they will be moving to somewhere like rural South Dakota, where (I'm assuming) there is a need for dentists due to a lack of a dental school? Or do you think they will stay in New York?
I've met a ton of people from NY and none of them want to live anywhere else. If I were in charge of Touro, I would have opened it in a state without a dental school. The number of dentists isn't necessarily the problem; it's where those dentists choose to practice
 
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JLT223

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When people graduate from Touro, do you think they will be moving to somewhere like rural South Dakota, where (I'm assuming) there is a need for dentists due to a lack of a dental school? Or do you think they will stay in New York?
I've met a ton of people from NY and none of them want to live anywhere else. If I were in charge of Touro, I would have opened it in a state without a dental school. The number of dentists isn't necessarily the problem; it's where those dentists choose to practice
Bingo
 
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catman856

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I am concerned about the number of dental schools opening, no one expected Touro to open until it was stumbled upon mid last year. We were expecting Bluefield but got Touro.

We are expecting 5 more new schools to open including Texas Tech, UNM, ETSU, Western U, and Wisconsin. The game changer is that consumer habits are changing, decrease insurance reimbursement, expansion of corporate dental centers, higher student debt, fewer associate positions, and dentists are practising nearly a decade longer than before.

The opening of Touro is especially concerning in that if many did not expect the opening of Touro, it makes you wonder how easy it could possibly be to open a dental school and charge ridiculous amount of tuition and fees to oversaturate the field of dentistry.
really?!? I didn't know about this. where did you hear/read about the opening of these schools? Also, assuming you are from Texas (UH Emblem), if Texas Tech does open another dental school, do you think it'll be very difficult for new dentists to find a place where there is hardly competition? I'm aware of big cities like Houston and San Antonio are saturated, but I'm thinking small towns like San Angelo, Laredo, Nacogdoches etc... are good locations to practice.
 

darknightzzz

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western U already opened, probably a few years ago.
 
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Typical Average Student

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really?!? I didn't know about this. where did you hear/read about the opening of these schools? Also, assuming you are from Texas (UH Emblem), if Texas Tech does open another dental school, do you think it'll be very difficult for new dentists to find a place where there is hardly competition? I'm aware of big cities like Houston and San Antonio are saturated, but I'm thinking small towns like San Angelo, Laredo, Nacogdoches etc... are good locations to practice.
I got it from the ADA round table presentation PowerPoint slide back in January 11, 2014. In fact, they said 15 schools will be opening including some that have recently opened.(http://www.medicaiddental.org/files/Other Files/Roundtable_Presentations/2014Roundtable_DentalPracticeTrendsPP.pdf)

I think Texas Tech would be a perfect place to open a dental school if they accept instate residents who would like to stay in the surrounding areas of Lubbock.
 
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BioForLife

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I think hellofuturedentists raises a good point. Of course, if you choose to practice in big cities like New York, competition will be stiffer and you have to be prepared for that. Most people, dentists included, would probably rather live in or near a big city than move to a remote town to practice.
 
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dentalcpa90

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Here are some reports on possible future dental schools:

From VCU in 2010:
http://wp.vcu.edu/dentistrydean/wp-...010/12/New-Dental-Schools-Report-Dec-2010.pdf

Page 47:
http://www.coopercenter.org/sites/default/files/documents/CEPS Dental School Study 2011.pdf

Page 5-6:
http://www.dentalboards.org/PDFS/2011MidYearPresentations.pdf

All of the reports are from 2010-2011 though. Funny how many of the schools on the list actually opened. Also, funny how Touro wasn't on any of the lists either. Touro just came out of no where.

LECOM-Erie PA also looks interesting too. If they are making money on their school in Florida, I don't think there would be a reason not to open one at their Erie, PA site too.
 

cacazor

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Do you guys feel better about yourselves for talking down on other schools?
 
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strep mutans

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People in areas you mentioned are going to get dentists from Texas Tech because they'll charge reasonable tuition as a state school. Their debt won't pressure them to move to Austin, Dallas, Houston etc. They may go for other reasons but it won't be the debt.

I'm not sure I understand the logic here. Why would a high debt load incentivize one to move to a more saturated area? If anything, I think it would be the opposite. Unless you mean those with more debt will be looking for corporate jobs, which are more prevalent in larger cities.
 
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arierosa

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I'm not sure I understand the logic here. Why would a high debt load incentivize one to move to a more saturated area? If anything, I think it would be the opposite. Unless you mean those with more debt will be looking for corporate jobs, which are more prevalent in larger cities.

I'd guess it's because those dentists have a more urgent need to move to places where people have the $$ to pay for care, rather than the underserved area where most can't afford it. /:
 
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THS

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The humanitarian in me says no, because we need more dentists. It is just wrong to say that more dentists and more access to care is a bad thing for patients.

The businessman in me says yes and no, because more dentists = more saturation = less patients, eventually lower insurance reimbursement, etc. But also no, because the "Access to Care" problem will always be a problem as long as dentists keep practicing in large cities where there are already tons of dentists. If Touro graduates 100 dentists at a time, I'm going to assume that less than 20 will go anywhere other than a medium/large city that is already saturated.

So the opening of Touro should worry those that want to practice in NYC or the surrounding areas. But then again, those people should already be worried.

This school will likely have no effect on me.
 
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Mad Jack

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When people graduate from Touro, do you think they will be moving to somewhere like rural South Dakota, where (I'm assuming) there is a need for dentists due to a lack of a dental school? Or do you think they will stay in New York?
I've met a ton of people from NY and none of them want to live anywhere else. If I were in charge of Touro, I would have opened it in a state without a dental school. The number of dentists isn't necessarily the problem; it's where those dentists choose to practice
Touro just cares about what can make them money. They're not looking to fill some void of providers. Interesting how a lot of the expansionist powers in the DO world are rapidly proliferating dental schools.
 
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allantois

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I mean, you can't open a school in an undeserved area: students need patients to practice on!
 

JLT223

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Touro just cares about what can make them money. They're not looking to fill some void of providers. Interesting how a lot of the expansionist powers in the DO world are rapidly proliferating dental schools.
Exactly.
 

hellofuturedentists

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Touro just cares about what can make them money. They're not looking to fill some void of providers. Interesting how a lot of the expansionist powers in the DO world are rapidly proliferating dental schools.
Agreed. I'm just saying if I had been able to pick the location, New York would have been tied with California as my last choice. Obviously I haven't looked much into the costs and projected profits of opening a new dental school, but I would guess you could definitely still make a profit opening a school in a state that doesn't have one.
 
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Mad Jack

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Agreed. I'm just saying if I had been able to pick the location, New York would have been tied with California as my last choice. Obviously I haven't looked much into the costs and projected profits of opening a new dental school, but I would guess you could definitely still make a profit opening a school in a state that doesn't have one.
You totally could, but then they wouldn't have all those facilities that they already built for their DO school ;) They're basically trying to double money on their investment by tacking as many professional programs onto one campus as they can.
 
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JLT223

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I lived down the road from the Valhalla campus and the last thing that this area needs is a dental school. Westchester county is one of the most affluent counties in the United States and there certainly is no shortage of care. All about the $$$.
 
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hellofuturedentists

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I lived down the road from the Valhalla campus and the last thing that this area needs is a dental school. Westchester county is one of the most affluent counties in the United States and there certainly is no shortage of care. All about the $$$.
I'm not from NY and don't know much about the area, but if the campus is indeed surrounded by affluence, I'd guess Touro would have a difficult time finding patients. Most people who can afford it will go to established dental practices instead of dental schools. Hmm. This will be interesting
 
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JLT223

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I'm not from NY and don't know much about the area, but if the campus is indeed surrounded by affluence, I'd guess Touro would have a difficult time finding patients. Most people who can afford it will go to established dental practices instead of dental schools. Hmm. This will be interesting
Don't get me wrong that was a bit of a generalization; there are obviously areas that aren't too great. Just do a Google search and you'll see that for the most part, people are well off. I'd say within 15 minutes of the school you'd probably encounter far too many dental offices than one would like to see.
 

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I'm not from NY and don't know much about the area, but if the campus is indeed surrounded by affluence, I'd guess Touro would have a difficult time finding patients. Most people who can afford it will go to established dental practices instead of dental schools. Hmm. This will be interesting
I don't think that's necessarily true. Low income individuals (especially those who are un/under-employed) have the time and the motivation to travel for a discount. With how easy NY is to travel around publicly, they shouldn't have difficulty getting patients to come for subsidized care
 

JLT223

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I don't think that's necessarily true. Low income individuals (especially those who are un/under-employed) have the time and the motivation to travel for a discount. With how easy NY is to travel around publicly, they shouldn't have difficulty getting patients to come for subsidized care
Being 20 minutes from Yonkers won't hurt them that's for sure
 
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fancymylotus

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I lived down the road from the Valhalla campus and the last thing that this area needs is a dental school. Westchester county is one of the most affluent counties in the United States and there certainly is no shortage of care. All about the $$$.

Lol. What? Dont make fun of my 'hood that way.
 

CityRaider

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I haven't heard anything about Texas Tech trying to open a dental school. The current focus is on breaking up A&M's bizarre vet school monopoly in Texas.
 
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jippyslim

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I don't think we need to go chicken little and declare that the sky is falling. The profession's supply and demand from a provider (dentist) standpoint is controlled. The ADA doesn't give out licenses to build new schools willy nilly. Added to that is the fact that the need for dentists will continue. If we take all the licensed dentists in America today there would be roughly 2k patients for everyone. Problem is, some graduates tend to stick to concentrated areas, adding to saturation. Go where you are needed! There are areas in this country where there isn't a general dentist, much less a specialist. The more pressing issue is tuition costs. TOO DAMN HIGH!
 
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endoaccess

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There's 10 new dental schools since I was a pre-dent in 2005. Many other schools increased class sizes.

Dental schools at prestigious universities like Northwestern, Georgetown an Emory have been replaced with schools like.... Touro. Rationalize it all you want, but it cheapens the profession.

Where does it end? Unfortunately it doesn't. ADA and CODA cannot restrict new schools from opening.

All the access to care and shortage talk is purely politics. There is no dentist shortage except in a few places like rural Alaska. Theres only a shortage of dentists willing to work for MEDICAID or certain plans. When you become dentists you'll understand why, and it's more then $$.

This access to care / dentist shortage talk will never, ever end. Even in places like CA they complain about it.

So yeah, you should be nervous. The sky isn't falling in dentistry, but things have been trending poorly for years. And look at what's happened to pharm, law, optometry, etc. All noble professions that have largely gone to **** because of a glut of grads.
 
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allantois

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I think all professions are doomed to becoming oversaturated: pharmacy, law, dentistry... While medicine folks thought they had things under control, they still could not control mid level (NP and PA) school proliferation. It seems to me that the only people benefiting from this are school administrators cashing their bonus checks, who will no doubt bail when students realize that they've been lied to and robbed by universities spewing lies about how great their lives will be if only they get that degree.

The truth is that in today's economy, just getting an education is not a guarantee for anything.

Is getting a JD degree still worth it? Only if it's from a top 14 program.
Are MBA degrees worth it? The ones from top 10 schools sure are.
Is a dental degree worth it? Yea, but only if you keep your debt to a reasonable level.
 
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jippyslim

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There's 10 new dental schools since I was a pre-dent in 2005. Many other schools increased class sizes.

Dental schools at prestigious universities like Northwestern, Georgetown an Emory have been replaced with schools like.... Touro. Rationalize it all you want, but it cheapens the profession.

Where does it end? Unfortunately it doesn't. ADA and CODA cannot restrict new schools from opening.

All the access to care and shortage talk is purely politics. There is no dentist shortage except in a few places like rural Alaska. Theres only a shortage of dentists willing to work for MEDICAID or certain plans. When you become dentists you'll understand why, and it's more then $$.

This access to care / dentist shortage talk will never, ever end. Even in places like CA they complain about it.

So yeah, you should be nervous. The sky isn't falling in dentistry, but things have been trending poorly for years. And look at what's happened to pharm, law, optometry, etc. All noble professions that have largely gone to **** because of a glut of grads.

Thanks for your valid points. I know you know more patients and insurance being on the other side. Let me ask you this, was dentistry going to **** when prestigious schools a la G'town and Emory were up and running? From what I have been reading, and from what I've heard from older dentists, is that there's always nervous gripe: when schools were closing some thought the profession was dying, and now with new schools there are too many grads.

I think every profession oscillates, as it should in a market economy. Law was king, at it lead to a flurry of new schools. Then '08, outsourcing, and technology happened. MBA degrees are another example. Dentistry is no different. When students are fed up with a 400k degree there will be a correction.
 

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Found the guy applying to touro!
If I am not already a dental student, I would definitely send my application towards touro. It will be ridiculous for you to not increase your chances because of your ego. Look at all the new dental school that have been opened within the last ten years and tell me which of them are producing graduates that are unable to come out to do dentistry like everyone else.

This is America. What do you think happens when supply cant meet demand? Capitalism kicks in. As long as there are people demanding to pay for 400k+ CoA, it will be profitable to meet that demand. Touro didn't set that trend.
 
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strep mutans

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Well @arierosa pretty much summed up my reasoning. I meant to say high debt will drive people to move to areas that are not "underserved" in the traditional sense, i.e. poor rural areas, poorer sections of cities, where access to care is lower. I agree that high debt could drive a lot to corporate, but what I was trying to get at is people with high debt will definitely shy away from underserved areas that are poor, and while practicing in small to mid-sized rural town could be lucrative places for them , they are likely not well connected there and will take the risk averse option of employment in an area with which they are more familiar. They will want to get any job to start paying back the debt. I could be wrong of course but just wanted to clear up my reasoning behind the post
Ah yes this makes sense, I agree.
 

GAdawg94

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I applied to Touro because the tuition + fees were reasonable.

But anyways, I am more concerned about the schools like ASDOH and MOSDOH that charge tuition and fees at 80,000+ . Thats somehow in sync with educating community health minded dentists??? Those two schools really irritate me. If you're military I get going there ,but maybe schools more reasonable in fees like Touro will be more of the norm. If students were smart and applied to reasonably priced schools and opted for those we would have a say in the prices and how much a dental education should cost.
 
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