12-year-old Begins Medical School...

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Should Med School Have A Minimum Age Requirement?

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MessyJessie said:
From the comments I have read on SDN, I bet half of the current med students would fail this so-called "maturity test" you have proposed.
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Exactly! Adults are not always the most mature people I've met ironically enough.
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Anjlprincezz said:
Sorry i couldn't think of something as prosaic as Doctor~Detroit...
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no no no, it's an awesome username. it's just that, as someone else pointed out, the "j" looks similar to an "i".
 
Pansit said:
Man...the best times of your life will fall between the ages of 12-25....we throw ours away at around 22, but at 12....give this guy some time to have fun, make some friends, go out on a date, watch tv, play sports, workout...etc. I know some of you might be jealous but I will take Medical School at 22 over 12 anyday.
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Maybe for you, but imagine this kids game. While other boys his age are hitting on women with, yeah I just got into pharmacy school, he'll be like I just finished residency, driving a jag, living in a penthouse in downtown chicago. Something tells me this kids life is gonna be sick come 22. Hardly comparable to mine or your experience at 22. Also, high school sucks for dorks, which this kid is definitely. Life for dorks doesn't kick ass until they make their first mill, Jr's just ahead of the game is all.:smuggrin: :smuggrin: :smuggrin:
 
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So this kid will be prescribing narcs before he's able to drink legally?

I believe that someone labeled adolescance as age 12 to 25? The human brain doesn't even finish its maturation until 5-6 years after this kid graduates from med school. You sure its a good idea to have him (or other youngsters) in charge of someone's life and health?

Knowledge is great, talent is better, but experience trumps them both.

LM
 
My problem is that medicine is fraught with alot of heavy, emotional issues, ethical grey lines etc that a kid, no matter how smart, may be able to handle. I guess I there is a level of emotional maturity that no amount of book knowledge can compensate which separates an adult from a kid and I'm not sure this kid will reach that point by the time he starts practicing medicine.
 
there should be an age limit
he's 12 and taking up space for some other psychologically depressed 22 year old pre-med that did not get in:(
 
Shoot it's tough getting into med school. This kid was probably screened harder than any applicant to determine his compatability with the profession.
IMO Having a minimum age would be pointless, since it does not absolutely gauge maturity.
 
Drachfar said:
Shoot it's tough getting into med school. This kid was probably screened harder than any applicant to determine his compatability with the profession.
IMO Having a minimum age would be pointless, since it does not absolutely gauge maturity.
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That's why there is a interview section in application process. I've seen this kid talk, and he seems like more mature than SDNers who are just jealous of him.
 
Its thoroughly impressive, and I have gone to school with math/science prodigies. (A kid I knew had a perfect score at the International Math Olympiad, anybody who knows anything about math knows how ridiculous that is).

The question is not whether he can handle the education, because he clearly can. The question is come time in the real world, how he will adapt to complex social situations. Some of the most important social situations you face are in middle and high school, and kids like these never see those situations. he may be able to treat patients and everything, but there are certain things that only social experience can teach you. Even if my kid was capable of doing something like him, the most I would want for my kid was maybe getting a diploma one or two years early. I feel like there is a lot more to life than just education and intelligence. Social skills are really important, and being grounded in the realities of the real world are just as important as being able to diagnose a patient. If not for his medical career, but for when the time comes that he gets married or raises his own family. And the question comes not from our perspective, but from his own, if indeed he does not make the great discovery in medicine which he clearly has the capacity to do, whether his childhood was worth it. I am in no place to judge. There's a great quote by Einstein - "The ordinary adult never gives a thought to space-time problems.... I, on the contrary, developed so slowly that I did not begin to wonder about space and time until I was an adult. I then delved more deeply into the problem than any other adult or child would have done."
 
gmsquid said:
Its thoroughly impressive, and I have gone to school with math/science prodigies. (A kid I knew had a perfect score at the International Math Olympiad, anybody who knows anything about math knows how ridiculous that is).

The question is not whether he can handle the education, because he clearly can. The question is come time in the real world, how he will adapt to complex social situations. Some of the most important social situations you face are in middle and high school, and kids like these never see those situations. he may be able to treat patients and everything, but there are certain things that only social experience can teach you. Even if my kid was capable of doing something like him, the most I would want for my kid was maybe getting a diploma one or two years early. I feel like there is a lot more to life than just education and intelligence. Social skills are really important, and being grounded in the realities of the real world are just as important as being able to diagnose a patient. If not for his medical career, but for when the time comes that he gets married or raises his own family. And the question comes not from our perspective, but from his own, if indeed he does not make the great discovery in medicine which he clearly has the capacity to do, whether his childhood was worth it. I am in no place to judge. There's a great quote by Einstein - "The ordinary adult never gives a thought to space-time problems.... I, on the contrary, developed so slowly that I did not begin to wonder about space and time until I was an adult. I then delved more deeply into the problem than any other adult or child would have done."
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While I do agree with you, I think there are some things you have to take into account. This guy would not have been able to fit in with the rest of middle schoolers and highschoolers his age because of he wouldn't have been able to relate to them on any level due to the fact that what comes as a struggle to them is too easy for him. Plus nerds are not very accepted by younger people. They only become accepted once they are older and making more money and have a better job. If this guy was going sraight into clinicals at age 14 then I would have had an issue with it. But because he's doing a PhD, I can only think that it can't be that bad as he's in the lab for most of his teenage years. He seems very well adjusted otherwise in that he plays with his sister and does other things that normal kids do. Those aspects which matter about childhood are things he seems to find the balance to do regardless so I don't know what he'll miss besides a bunch of heartache of having to deal with cruel kids who are very cliquey and immature a lot of the times. Besides having a highschool prom or things like that aren't half as memorable as college memories and the day you get married. By the time he's 20 something he'll be done and making good money that he'll have his choice of girls while most of us the kids his age are still struggling.


Also, another thing is that he can't have the normal life in a regular school system because even the teachers told the parents to take him out of the reg. school system to put him into homeschool because his extreme inability to be challenged by the reg. schooling system.
 
To all those suggesting that this kid can't handle all the complex psychosocial issues of being a physician you're absolutely right- and as already pointed out, plenty of 24 year olds cant either. So what's the alternative- limit his profound abilities by keeping him out? This kid is quite clearly gifted and probably possess the talent and drive to make significant contributions in a field and could have profound social impact. Who knows what he's capable of. While people are talking about barring his entry into medicine, I think we need people like this. Perhaps limit his clinical activities until he's a little older and ready to handle it, but definitely get that kid into the anatomy lab. I know and understand all the talk about providing a normal childhood and not giving up your youth... but people like this are rare and are the necessary ingredients for the huge leaps in knowledge that drive our field (or any field for that matter)... if he wants to hold off on playing some playstation to study amino acids, more power to him. It won't be that lamentable when he makes if he makes some huge discover in 20 years.
 
gujuDoc said:
While I do agree with you, I think there are some things you have to take into account. This guy would not have been able to fit in with the rest of middle schoolers and highschoolers his age because of he wouldn't have been able to relate to them on any level due to the fact that what comes as a struggle to them is too easy for him. Plus nerds are not very accepted by younger people. They only become accepted once they are older and making more money and have a better job. If this guy was going sraight into clinicals at age 14 then I would have had an issue with it. But because he's doing a PhD, I can only think that it can't be that bad as he's in the lab for most of his teenage years. He seems very well adjusted otherwise in that he plays with his sister and does other things that normal kids do. Those aspects which matter about childhood are things he seems to find the balance to do regardless so I don't know what he'll miss besides a bunch of heartache of having to deal with cruel kids who are very cliquey and immature a lot of the times. Besides having a highschool prom or things like that aren't half as memorable as college memories and the day you get married. By the time he's 20 something he'll be done and making good money that he'll have his choice of girls while most of us the kids his age are still struggling.


Also, another thing is that he can't have the normal life in a regular school system because even the teachers told the parents to take him out of the reg. school system to put him into homeschool because his extreme inability to be challenged by the reg. schooling system.
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I wouldn't underestimate the importance of socialization with peers during younger years. Even if the dude was a nerd and unable to relate to kids at their level, there is probably something valuable to be gained by going through those motions. You either get beat down and get stronger for it, or you learn how to make friends with those you have little in common with -- both are extremely important exercises in maturity.

And personally, I cannot think of a worse way to spend all your teen years than researching in a lab for your PhD. It's a time when many of us were partying it up in college, dating, imbibing, cementing friendships that will last for years -- the best time in many people's lives.

I'm sure this guy will turn out fine, but I certainly wouldn't wish his loss of childhood and teen years on anyone.
 
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turkleton said:
To all those suggesting that this kid can't handle all the complex psychosocial issues of being a physician you're absolutely right- and as already pointed out, plenty of 24 year olds cant either. So what's the alternative- limit his profound abilities by keeping him out? This kid is quite clearly gifted and probably possess the talent and drive to make significant contributions in a field and could have profound social impact. Who knows what he's capable of. While people are talking about barring his entry into medicine, I think we need people like this. Perhaps limit his clinical activities until he's a little older and ready to handle it, but definitely get that kid into the anatomy lab. I know and understand all the talk about providing a normal childhood and not giving up your youth... but people like this are rare and are the necessary ingredients for the huge leaps in knowledge that drive our field (or any field for that matter)... if he wants to hold off on playing some playstation to study amino acids, more power to him. It won't be that lamentable when he makes if he makes some huge discover in 20 years.
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Actually, a lot of these child prodigies peak early, and don't go on to such great things. (Sort of like an early growth spurt -- doesn't mean a kid will eventually hit 7'). There have been quite a few "where are they now" follow-ups on some of the more impressive early prodigies, and they generally didn't accomplish all that much years later.
 
Yeah I agree with law2doc, and playing with your sister isn't the same as developing friendships with people outside your family. It is important to be able to relate to people you have nothing in common with. Girls may chase money or status or rep, but personality is crucial, especially in regards to the ins and outs of marriage and relationships. I'm not saying he doesn't have personality, I'm just saying that its something we forget about when considering marriage. Also, doctors are notorious for divorces because of their lifestyle. He has an extreme lifestyle in this regard, so it may be even more likely.
 
Law2Doc said:
Actually, a lot of these child prodigies peak early, and don't go on to such great things. (Sort of like an early growth spurt -- doesn't mean a kid will eventually hit 7'). There have been quite a few "where are they now" follow-ups on some of the more impressive early prodigies, and they generally didn't accomplish all that much years later.
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I agree, this is no guarantee. But don't you feel that resources and opportunities should be made available just in case he is the next big thing. There is no way of predicting future success out of these guys, but there is so much potential... it just seems he is more likely to contribute to the field than I would- no way of predicting it, but common sense points to it.

There is also a significant cultural element which is missing. Before we rush to view the dire situation of this child through our westernized window, there are elements of an immigrant Asian household which many do not understand and would deem strange from a cursory examination.
 
turkleton said:
I agree, this is no guarantee. But don't you feel that resources and opportunities should be made available just in case he is the next big thing. There is no way of predicting future success out of these guys, but there is so much potential... it just seems he is more likely to contribute to the field than I would- no way of predicting it, but common sense points to it.

There is also a significant cultural element which is missing. Before we rush to view the dire situation of this child through our westernized window, there are elements of an immigrant Asian household which many do not understand and would deem strange from a cursory examination.
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The next big thing could be anyone, at any age. Just as this kid could be peaking early, some nontrad could be peaking late and become the next big thing. Without more evidence, you absolutely do not want to reallocate resources or opportunities in the hopes of "so much potential". I actually suspect you or others going at a more normal pace are more likely to contribute to the field, because frankly this is a service industry, first and foremost. If dealing with people isn't one of your skills, something you start to learn by socializing in grade school, you don't often go that far in medicine or other service professions.

As for the cultural issue -- again, this is a service industry, and so patient and supervisor expectations loom large. If people skills aren't a big arrow in your quivver, your "strange" background won't absolve you.
 
Don't worry about this kid guys because of social skills. He won't take care of patients. He will earn Ph.D and do research.
 
i beleive in an upper-age limit more than a lower one. a 60 year-old has no business starting med school, and i saw one at one of my interviews.
 
Law2Doc said:
The next big thing could be anyone, at any age. Just as this kid could be peaking early, some nontrad could be peaking late and become the next big thing. Without more evidence, you absolutely do not want to reallocate resources or opportunities in the hopes of "so much potential". I actually suspect you or others going at a more normal pace are more likely to contribute to the field, because frankly this is a service industry, first and foremost. If dealing with people isn't one of your skills, something you start to learn by socializing in grade school, you don't often go that far in medicine or other service professions.

As for the cultural issue -- again, this is a service industry, and so patient and supervisor expectations loom large. If people skills aren't a big arrow in your quivver, your "strange" background won't absolve you.
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I think I'm viewing it from the more academic/scientific aspect than the nature of medicine as a service industry. I have no arguments that a 19 year old is unready for the clinical world... most are- as they should be- drinking too much beer and having too much fun. Academically though, if someone has demonstrated not just proficiency but mastery of material up through the undergraduate level, why not let him learn the basic sciences of medical school? Why not allow him to make forays into a scientific lab? Making him stick to his grade level and learn stuff he knows inside out is 1. pointless and 2. has to be driving the kid nuts. I'm not offering solutions as to how to navigate the problem of balancing social maturity with academic maturity, but I just feel that if he's intelligent enough handle the material, then let him try. Subjugating him to class work far below his abilities has to just as painful as navigating through the issues of social maturity and identity.
 
turkleton said:
I think I'm viewing it from the more academic/scientific aspect than the nature of medicine as a service industry. I have no arguments that a 19 year old is unready for the clinical world... most are- as they should be- drinking too much beer and having too much fun. Academically though, if someone has demonstrated not just proficiency but mastery of material up through the undergraduate level, why not let him learn the basic sciences of medical school? Why not allow him to make forays into a scientific lab? Making him stick to his grade level and learn stuff he knows inside out is 1. pointless and 2. has to be driving the kid nuts. I'm not offering solutions as to how to navigate the problem of balancing social maturity with academic maturity, but I just feel that if he's intelligent enough handle the material, then let him try. Subjugating him to class work far below his abilities has to just as painful as navigating through the issues of social maturity and identity.
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I still think that trying to gain social maturity without being surrounded by peers of your age group is more of a hurdle than you are allowing. But even assuming we want to let such a person advance, in that case, why not funnel him into just a PhD program and not take up a spot that could be better used by someone who actually is going to contribute to the service oriented profession. Medical school and residency slots are very finite. You give one to a 12 year old who is going to spend his career in a lab, that's one less seat available to someone actually needed to take care of patients. At 20, after working as a scientist for a while, he could always apply to med school and be subjected to the normal scrutiny.
 
...runs and hides in the little boy's room so the girls won't give him kooties.
 
You know - I've read some pretty dumba** things about this kid - has anyone ever thought that there is a chance that...if he's gifted enough to gain admission into medical school (pritzker no less) - as in: took the MCAT, went through undergrad and did well, volunteered and has the same EC's as most premeds, wrote his personal statement, and formed relationships with profs who wrote him good LORs - that his "giftedness" may also be intertwined with his "precociousness" and that he's not simply a 15 year old (or 12 year old) the way we understand a 15 yr old to be? Stop making dumb assumptions about how he's missing out on his good "teenage" years etc...i'm sure he'll experience it in another way...

unless he's just got a high IQ that enables him to grasp academic material and pritzker let him in for publicity (b/c "normal" 12 year olds don't usually have the maturity and ability to do all the things that we premeds gotta do to gain admission) - then fine, the kid will run into some real problems...but i don't think that has happened...so...
 
xylem29 said:
unless he's just got a high IQ that enables him to grasp academic material and pritzker let him in for publicity (b/c "normal" 12 year olds don't usually have the maturity and ability to do all the things that we premeds gotta do to gain admission) - then fine, the kid will run into some real problems...but i don't think that has happened...so...
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It's an experiment. They haven't admitted another so young since.
 
Stolenspatulas said:
well, im guessing they havent had any other 12 year olds apply since
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Yeah and besides this is hardly an experiment seeing that there was already a 13 year old Asian Indian genius who graduated medical school and went straight from med school into residency without doing a PhD in between.

At least this kid will be in his late teens and early 20s in residency and clinical years.
 
Stolenspatulas said:
well, im guessing they havent had any other 12 year olds apply since
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That's a good point. And if there ever were, you can bet there would be an SDN thread about it. "Hi I'm 12 years old, got a 1650 on my SAT's when I was in my mom's womb (50 pts extra credit for going prenatal), can speak 19 languages fluently including Sanskrit and ancient Egyptian, compose my own piano sonatas, cured Kuru in Papa New Guinea, and got a 45 on MCAT's... do you think I'll get in?"

And xylem, I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to say there. That you don't mind his acceptance or you think it's dumb? It seemed confusing.
 
turkleton said:
That's a good point. And if there ever were, you can bet there would be an SDN thread about it. "Hi I'm 12 years old, got a 1650 on my SAT's when I was in my mom's womb (50 pts extra credit for going prenatal), can speak 19 languages fluently including Sanskrit and ancient Egyptian, compose my own piano sonatas, cured Kuru in Papa New Guinea, and got a 45 on MCAT's... do you think I'll get in?"

And xylem, I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to say there. That you don't mind his acceptance or you think it's dumb? It seemed confusing.
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I'm pretty sure its the former not the latter. In other words, I'm pretty sure that he's ok with this boy's acceptance into med school based on the way I read it.
 
Doogie Kim? Margarete Cho could play the mom.
 
gujuDoc said:
He won't be 16 when he does a pelvic exam. Maybe you misread the part where he says he's an MD/PhD student.

That means he'll be at least 20 before finishing med school.
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Omg, he was just joking. :rolleyes:


And to everyone else, I like how we PRE-MEDS (aka ppl who WISH they were in med school) are making judgments on who deserves or doesn't deserve to be a med student. Wait till you all are IN med school, then you can talk!
 
I am not the biggest fan of restrictions, and definitely not age restrictions. It is unfair to bar a student from studying medicine just because they are younger.

Some people find their dreams and passions at an early age, and they should be given an opportunity to follow their heart.

On the other hand if there were an ag restriction it should be 16, the same as a getting a driver's liscense.

Overall, though, if the student is mature and passionate I think he/she should be allowed to study medicine whenever he/she wants regardless of age.
 
Aerith said:
And to everyone else, I like how we PRE-MEDS (aka ppl who WISH they were in med school) are making judgments on who deserves or doesn't deserve to be a med student. Wait till you all are IN med school, then you can talk!
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Just FYI, Looking at the thread I see a number of recently admitted people, at least one med student and at least one resident weighing in...

But I don't really think there is anything wrong with premeds debating about admissions issues such as age and maturity expecations on a premed forum. While premeds may not have a perfect understanding of what med school and medicine entails, they do have a pretty good idea about what being a 12 year old, going through puberty, learning socialization skills in school, etc typically entails.
 
Most state medical boards require you to be 21 years of age to obtain a license to practice medicine. google it if you don't believe me
 
haha, I remember him from undergrad (Go Ramblers). I also know that many medical schools refused to accept him into medical school because of his age
 
I wonder if this kid has graduated yet. Any Pritzker students want to chime in here....

I would be very curious to see what his bedside manners are like and how social he is. Probably doesn't get out of the lab a whole lot, my guess?
 
Sephiroth said:
huh? I thought they said he should've graduated in 2009. Maybe he spent some more time on the PhD.
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Probably worked out for the best. since he's apparently on social and skit committees, it sounds like his socialization worked out okay, which I think is most important in this very interpersonal service oriented field.
 
Oh, my ego... THE PAIN!

Seriously though- 12? I couldn't have done med school four years ago. Props to him if he did!
 
It's all relative to what makes him satisfied (starting so early). Personally I think we should live by the stages of life without rushing and without wasting time.
 
BrandNewDay said:
Oh, my ego... THE PAIN!

Seriously though- 12? I couldn't have done med school four years ago. Props to him if he did!
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druggeek said:
It's all relative to what makes him satisfied (starting so early).
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Children like this are probably much more common than we know. Our educational system (and cultural) bias is to hold these children back, ostensibly to let them socially mature (although the REAL reasons are more about the institutions themselves). After all, it never really is about "what makes him satisfied", the decisions are made by the parents and/or the educational institutions according to their wants and needs.

Personally I think we should live by the stages of life without rushing and without wasting time.
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Exactly, knowing, of course, that these stages can occur differently in each individual.
 
The whole past talk about mature young people is interesting. The fact is that young people are rarely as mature as they think they are, and the biological basis for it demonstrates that the impulse control and planning portions of your brain are not fully developed and myelinated until well past your teenage years. This doesnt necessarily apply to this kid, because who knows what's going on in the mind of someone with more iq points between him and the average human than the average human and some animals...
 
mmmcdowe said:
This doesnt necessarily apply to this kid, because who knows what's going on in the mind of someone with more iq points between him and the average human than the average human and some animals...
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Sorry if my just-kidding detector isn't working, but you're not serious, are you?
 
Signifier said:
Sorry if my just-kidding detector isn't working, but you're not serious, are you?
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Making light of it more than kidding. Theoretically if you put chimps on a human iq scale they would score a non zero value. Even if that value was 0.001, that is still closer to 100 than someone at 200 or higher. Obviously, the iq scale isn't a full Or accurate representation intelligence, hence the humor of it.
 
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