12-year-old Begins Medical School...

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Should Med School Have A Minimum Age Requirement?


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if you cant respond on any higher logical level than "i did my chores and i want my allowance" then there is little point in continuing. at the moment you are kind of stomping your feet and holding your breath. please try to see some of these other points of view and at least address them rationally. I am not asking you to agree with me.... but at the moment your position is entirely self serving.

Yet this is somehow NOT patronization, right? Could somebody else chime in on their opinion of my "foot-stomping and breath-holding"? If someone else got the same vibe from my arguments, there's clearly something I may improve upon when it comes to my debate abilities.

Ironically, this argument has almost nothing to do with me. I'm unlikely to get in this cycle. When I reapply in a future cycle, I'll be a legal adult. However, there are kids that are far more intelligent than I am. I want them to be able to reach their full potential, no matter what career they choose. I ran into enough pointless restrictions in my time. If I can help reduce those, then I will have really accomplished something.

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Yet this is somehow NOT patronization, right? Could somebody else chime in on their opinion of my "foot-stomping and breath-holding"? If someone else got the same vibe from my arguments, there's clearly something I may improve upon when it comes to my debate abilities.

Ironically, this argument has almost nothing to do with me. I'm unlikely to get in this cycle. When I reapply in a future cycle, I'll be a legal adult. However, there are kids that are far more intelligent than I am. I want them to be able to reach their full potential, no matter what career they choose. I ran into enough pointless restrictions in my time. If I can help reduce those, then I will have really accomplished something.

I'm on your side on this one. Unfortunately, patronizing people exist in every field.
 
no no... that part WAS patronizing... I thought that was implicit in the rest of the post....

sorry, little patients for cop-out cards like race cards, gender cards, and (in the case of age) patronization-cards. In previous posts I was not talking down to you but if you are prone to take it that way anyways I may as well not spend so much effort on language choice.
 
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:confused: Lol, if some 22 year old wanted my seat, they should have produced a more compelling application than mine. :cool:
You're reading that out of context. It was juxtaposed to a statement of the reverse to make the point that "unfairness" is subjective.

but if you cant respond on any higher logical level than "i did my chores and i want my allowance" then there is little point in continuing. at the moment you are kind of stomping your feet and holding your breath.

Oh c'mon, that was kinda patronizing. (edit: slow-ninja'd. that's what I get for typing a comment, leaving, then coming back and clicking submit)

The legal matters I could understand, so for the sake of argument let's assume a hypotheitcal student entering medical school at 16, and this school has no patient contact until third year, so this student would be 18 by then. What is the issue now? S/he may look young, or may look older. If it were me, I could've easily grown out my beard and passed as older by that point, so I don't see that as being an issue. And if the apparent age is a problem, I know some people in their 20's who look much younger - should they be screened out? I'm guessing none of you would say yes. Yet I keep seeing people mention patients being uncomfortable, but their are a million reasons a patient may not feel comfortable tellign a certain doctor about certain problems. There are some problems if I had I wouldn't feel comfortable telling to a very attractive female - so we shouldn't allow attractive women to be urologists? I think it should be clear that saying some patients might not be comfortable is a poor argument. So putting legal liability aside and assuming the hypothetical person is 18, and thus a legal adult, by the time they conduct any exams of that nature, is there any argument against it?

(P.S. and for younger persons, institutions may or may not have policies or procedures for such a case, but for that I think we should assume that if there is an institution willign to take such an individual, legal matters are not an issue)
 
You're reading that out of context. It was juxtaposed to a statement of the reverse to make the point that "unfairness" is subjective.



Oh c'mon, that was kinda patronizing. (edit: slow-ninja'd. that's what I get for typing a comment, leaving, then coming back and clicking submit)

The legal matters I could understand, so for the sake of argument let's assume a hypotheitcal student entering medical school at 16, and this school has no patient contact until third year, so this student would be 18 by then. What is the issue now? S/he may look young, or may look older. If it were me, I could've easily grown out my beard and passed as older by that point, so I don't see that as being an issue. And if the apparent age is a problem, I know some people in their 20's who look much younger - should they be screened out? I'm guessing none of you would say yes. Yet I keep seeing people mention patients being uncomfortable, but their are a million reasons a patient may not feel comfortable tellign a certain doctor about certain problems. There are some problems if I had I wouldn't feel comfortable telling to a very attractive female - so we shouldn't allow attractive women to be urologists? I think it should be clear that saying some patients might not be comfortable is a poor argument. So putting legal liability aside and assuming the hypothetical person is 18, and thus a legal adult, by the time they conduct any exams of that nature, is there any argument against it?

(P.S. and for younger persons, institutions may or may not have policies or procedures for such a case, but for that I think we should assume that if there is an institution willign to take such an individual, legal matters are not an issue)

sounds good to me lol. All I have said is I am uncomfortable with minors practicing certain aspects of medicine. Not only personally - but because I can envision a crap-storm of problems that could arise from that. but this is a theoretical discussion on someone who was 12 lol. I'm happy for the kid and impressed with what was accomplished, but "ive earned it" is not a concept that really translates well into the real world. it is a selfish and subjective ideal. that is not to say i dont think it myself from time to time. but i dont expect the world around me to react to my perception of "earned worth"


EDIT: p.s. love the name and avatar. is there an off topic section to discuss all the various reason why square should have remade FFVII on PS3 rather than hacks like mindjack and XIII?
 
sounds good to me lol. All I have said is I am uncomfortable with minors practicing certain aspects of medicine. Not only personally - but because I can envision a crap-storm of problems that could arise from that. but this is a theoretical discussion on someone who was 12 lol. I'm happy for the kid and impressed with what was accomplished, but "ive earned it" is not a concept that really translates well into the real world. it is a selfish and subjective ideal. that is not to say i dont think it myself from time to time. but i dont expect the world around me to react to my perception of "earned worth"


EDIT: p.s. love the name and avatar. is there an off topic section to discuss all the various reason why square should have remade FFVII on PS3 rather than hacks like mindjack and XIII?
There's the lounge, but that's not somewhere I think we wanna venture. But that would've gotten me to buy a PS3 (lately I've been playing ff9-12 on my ps2, lol) But yes, FF7 with all the graphics and whatnot upgraded would be amazing.
 
After all, if your options are: work hard, graduate early, then not get accepted until you've essentially wasted all the years you gained by working hard or put in an average amount of work (comparatively), graduate normally, and get in?

If that's how you view spending a couple of years doing something other than school, I'd argue you're wasting an enormously valuable opportunity to explore and define your interests before you hit medical school. It's something many premeds don't truly get a chance to do, and it would help you to make the most of your medical training.

What, for instance, do you want to do with the rest of your life? What do you want to get out of your medical career? Do you want to do basic or clinical research? Health policy? Urban vs. rural vs. international medicine? Is there a particular disease or condition you'd like to tackle? Why? How do you know? (These questions are all rhetorical.)

Is it unfair to expect you to go the non-trad route while people older (and in some cases less mature) than you are allowed to go straight in from undergrad at age 22? A bit unfair. But posters in this thread have brought up a host of legitimate reasons, some of which you've acknowledged, why it might be better off for you, your patients, and your training program for you to have a couple more years and experience.

The point is, what's the rush, really? Life's not a linear path. You finished the first couple of laps faster than most, which gives you the luxury to, yes, stop and smell the roses. Either way, I'm sure you'll be an exceptional physician. There's just so much more you could be doing right now rather than worrying about re-applying and re-applying to medical school.
 
sounds good to me lol. All I have said is I am uncomfortable with minors practicing certain aspects of medicine. Not only personally - but because I can envision a crap-storm of problems that could arise from that. but this is a theoretical discussion on someone who was 12 lol. I'm happy for the kid and impressed with what was accomplished, but "ive earned it" is not a concept that really translates well into the real world. it is a selfish and subjective ideal. that is not to say i dont think it myself from time to time. but i dont expect the world around me to react to my perception of "earned worth"


EDIT: p.s. love the name and avatar. is there an off topic section to discuss all the various reason why square should have remade FFVII on PS3 rather than hacks like mindjack and XIII?

An odd question: How many of your doctors have ever identified their age for you? Have you asked them? Would you ask someone if you thought he/she looked young?

Personally, I've never asked any doctor his age except one that I've been seeing over ten years, but perhaps your experience has been different.

Your treatment of BND suggests that you're simply incapable of taking anyone under the age of 18 seriously, but only if you know them to be under the age of 18. But how can you know?
 
If that's how you view spending a couple of years doing something other than school, I'd argue you're wasting an enormously valuable opportunity to explore and define your interests before you hit medical school. It's something many premeds don't truly get a chance to do, and it would help you to make the most of your medical training.

What, for instance, do you want to do with the rest of your life? What do you want to get out of your medical career? Do you want to do basic or clinical research? Health policy? Urban vs. rural vs. international medicine? Is there a particular disease or condition you'd like to tackle? Why? How do you know? (These questions are all rhetorical.)

Is it unfair to expect you to go the non-trad route while people older (and in some cases less mature) than you are allowed to go straight in from undergrad at age 22? A bit unfair. But posters in this thread have brought up a host of legitimate reasons, some of which you've acknowledged, why it might be better off for you, your patients, and your training program for you to have a couple more years and experience.

The point is, what's the rush, really? Life's not a linear path. You finished the first couple of laps faster than most, which gives you the luxury to, yes, stop and smell the roses. Either way, I'm sure you'll be an exceptional physician. There's just so much more you could be doing right now rather than worrying about re-applying and re-applying to medical school.

this is predominantly why I dont accept the "he's worked hard for it" logic. nobody is saying he can't have it. The only other opinion on the table is that he should wait. and if he doesnt want to and the system allows it then there is little else I have to say on the matter. But to treat the statement "well he deserves it for all his hard work" as some sort of universal truth across points of view.... well.... let me put it this way - understanding why that is wrong is one of my greatest achievements between my teens and my 20s
 
If that's how you view spending a couple of years doing something other than school, I'd argue you're wasting an enormously valuable opportunity to explore and define your interests before you hit medical school. It's something many premeds don't truly get a chance to do, and it would help you to make the most of your medical training.

What, for instance, do you want to do with the rest of your life? What do you want to get out of your medical career? Do you want to do basic or clinical research? Health policy? Urban vs. rural vs. international medicine? Is there a particular disease or condition you'd like to tackle? Why? How do you know? (These questions are all rhetorical.)

Is it unfair to expect you to go the non-trad route while people older (and in some cases less mature) than you are allowed to go straight in from undergrad at age 22? A bit unfair. But posters in this thread have brought up a host of legitimate reasons, some of which you've acknowledged, why it might be better off for you, your patients, and your training program for you to have a couple more years and experience.

The point is, what's the rush, really? Life's not a linear path. You finished the first couple of laps faster than most, which gives you the luxury to, yes, stop and smell the roses. Either way, I'm sure you'll be an exceptional physician. There's just so much more you could be doing right now rather than worrying about re-applying and re-applying to medical school.

I don't think her point was to say that she feels it's a waste to take time off. If it were, she would likely simply just do exactly what you're saying: Apply again and again and again, not getting anywhere until she turned 22, or whatever age she needed to in order to gain admission. That's not her plan, though.

I do think, though, that if you've decided what you want your profession to be, arbitrary obstacles to success should be universally eliminated to the greatest extent possible so that you can move forward in the field you wish to pursue. And I that's how I see age in isolation: an arbitrary obstacle.
 
An odd question: How many of your doctors have ever identified their age for you? Have you asked them? Would you ask someone if you thought he/she looked young?

Personally, I've never asked any doctor his age except one that I've been seeing over ten years, but perhaps your experience has been different.

Your treatment of BND suggests that you're simply incapable of taking anyone under the age of 18 seriously, but only if you know them to be under the age of 18. But how can you know?

actually you're really wrong about this. BND and I were on opposing sides of this issue well before I knew she was young. My treatment of her was based on her approach to the issue and her ability to address points in a logical and rational matter. I am not even suggesting her relative ability to do these things is related to her age.

and again, the point of legality is ignored. i pose it as a question because I dont know the answer and I am not sure if these schools in question had to do something special for their young students. But it isnt about taking one seriously, nor is it about questioning the ability (seriously.... go back and look for an instance where I say they are incapable due to age.... I will paypal you $1k right now, ive got the loans to do it :rolleyes:). In order to make your statement you have to blatantly disregard almost everything ive said and focus only on the part where I was patronizing which was really just a response to her another statement she made.

what happens if a 35 year old woman comes into the ER with PID symptoms and she later finds out the resident who saw her was a minor? can she sue at all? are there considerations for this? hell, a jahovas witness can sue over blood transfusions (popular interview question BTW), so what if a patient feels they were in a compromising situation with a child do to personal or religious beliefs? that alone may be enough to disclose age of minors in med school and residency at every turn.... it is the allmighty lawsuit that drives my logic, not just some dude on the internet hating on kids with drive. I wouldnt give back my younger years for everyone and to each his (or her) own.
 
actually you're really wrong about this. BND and I were on opposing sides of this issue well before I knew she was young. My treatment of her was based on her approach to the issue and her ability to address points in a logical and rational matter. I am not even suggesting her relative ability to do these things is related to her age.

and again, the point of legality is ignored. i pose it as a question because I dont know the answer and I am not sure if these schools in question had to do something special for their young students. But it isnt about taking one seriously, nor is it about questioning the ability (seriously.... go back and look for an instance where I say they are incapable due to age.... I will paypal you $1k right now, ive got the loans to do it :rolleyes:). In order to make your statement you have to blatantly disregard almost everything ive said and focus only on the part where I was patronizing which was really just a response to her another statement she made.

what happens if a 35 year old woman comes into the ER with PID symptoms and she later finds out the resident who saw her was a minor? can she sue at all? are there considerations for this? hell, a jahovas witness can sue over blood transfusions (popular interview question BTW), so what if a patient feels they were in a compromising situation with a child do to personal or religious beliefs? that alone may be enough to disclose age of minors in med school and residency at every turn.... it is the allmighty lawsuit that drives my logic, not just some dude on the internet hating on kids with drive. I wouldnt give back my younger years for everyone and to each his (or her) own.

Ok, so shelve any discussion of minors in residency, then, and let's move to a middle ground where we both have standing and don't have to answer the question you proposed, which, admittedly, neither of us has the answer to. If there is a compelling legal interest to keep a minor from residency, we can ignore that for now.

So let's assume, then, that the young person in question enters medical school and is uniformly barred from participating in a residency program until age 18. Is that more satisfactory?
 
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Ok, so shelve any discussion of minors in residency, then, and let's move to a middle ground where we both have standing and don't have to answer the question you proposed, which, admittedly, neither of us has the answer to. If there is a compelling legal interest to keep a minor from residency, we can ignore that for now.

So let's assume, then, that the young person in question enters medical school and is uniformly barred from participating in a residency program until age 18. Is that more satisfactory?

EDIT: sorry i misread.. ignoring a legal issue - a person should be able to enter any profession at any age assuming they demonstrate the minimum acceptable competency. (I assume we are ignoring child labor laws too right?... many states restrict more than 20 hours of work for people under 16 and that kid would have been damn close if he hadnt done a mixed degree)
 
So then your argument has nothing to do with your actual uncomfortability having minors exposed to potentially adult material, right? I think we're on the same page there.

I edited. I misread your initial post. not even gunna complain about you capturing it in quote :p

the "yes, i think this is appropriate" was meant for a situation where we are acknowledging a legal issues with minors and adults. the system as it is, I dont think residency should be available to minors in any fashion - and it is a stretch to claim that such "adult material" could be avoided through med school. as a current med student I can tell you it happens early... damn... i didnt even think of PE skills sessions. not sure how his school is but at mine and several others we practice physical exams on each other.
 
EDIT: sorry i misread.. ignoring a legal issue - a person should be able to enter any profession at any age assuming they demonstrate the minimum acceptable competency. (I assume we are ignoring child labor laws too right?... many states restrict more than 20 hours of work for people under 16 and that kid would have been damn close if he hadnt done a mixed degree)

I don't think that applies for students, especially since secondary schooling often comprises 25-30 hours per week, right? So if you've finished your high school degree, what then? If the letter of the law says you have to be in high school during that time even if you've graduated, well, then there's simply a serious problem with the letter of the law, but there's not much more to be said about it.

I edited. I misread your initial post. not even gunna complain about you capturing it in quote :p

Ta da.
 
what happens if a 35 year old woman comes into the ER with PID symptoms and she later finds out the resident who saw her was a minor? can she sue at all? are there considerations for this? hell, a jahovas witness can sue over blood transfusions (popular interview question BTW), so what if a patient feels they were in a compromising situation with a child do to personal or religious beliefs? that alone may be enough to disclose age of minors in med school and residency at every turn.... it is the allmighty lawsuit that drives my logic, not just some dude on the internet hating on kids with drive. I wouldnt give back my younger years for everyone and to each his (or her) own.

anyone can sue for anything, doesn't mean they'll win. As for the jehova's witness example, the question I'm familiar with is with treating a child with JW parents. I'd be interested if you know a case that would be a counterexample, because I would inuit that so long as there was no clear indicator that the patient would refuse a transfusion (assuming they are unconscious and cannot state it themselves) and it was deemed medically necessary, the doctors would be safe.
 
I don't think that applies for students, especially since secondary schooling often comprises 25-30 hours per week, right? So if you've finished your high school degree, what then? If the letter of the law says you have to be in high school during that time even if you've graduated, well, then there's simply a serious problem with the letter of the law, but there's not much more to be said about it.



Ta da.

it does not apply to schooling. it definitely applies to residency. and it is a mere 2 years from average middle school completion to 16. high school is not mandatory.

although it may be 14.... but hell, that is still on the table since we are talking about age restritions in any fashion. if a 15 year old can graduate college then I assume a 12 year old can graduate HS. he would then be subject to labor laws for at least 2 years i believe
 
anyone can sue for anything, doesn't mean they'll win. As for the jehova's witness example, the question I'm familiar with is with treating a child with JW parents. I'd be interested if you know a case that would be a counterexample, because I would inuit that so long as there was no clear indicator that the patient would refuse a transfusion (assuming they are unconscious and cannot state it themselves) and it was deemed medically necessary, the doctors would be safe.

lol true. the JW child is a good one. dont know about all schools, but the ones I interviewed at want you to express understanding and empathy for different world views, but ultimately understand that parents cannot make a martyr of a child. It is different for adults, in which case if you have clear documentation of wishes then you comply, but if there is any doubt standard practice is to save the life
 
im attempting to study while responding, so i apologize for all the edits and whatnot. it is hard enough for me to follow and I am the one doing it.....
 
anyone can sue for anything, doesn't mean they'll win. As for the jehova's witness example, the question I'm familiar with is with treating a child with JW parents. I'd be interested if you know a case that would be a counterexample, because I would inuit that so long as there was no clear indicator that the patient would refuse a transfusion (assuming they are unconscious and cannot state it themselves) and it was deemed medically necessary, the doctors would be safe.

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In all seriousness, though, @Specter: I think this discussion is as much about what the law SHOULD be as about what the current statutes ARE. Obviously if it is illegal for a minor to perform certain medical procedures and/or be licensed, it's a bad move for a health care network to employ minors. It may still well be, however, that the law itself is neither just nor logical, and we've certainly seen instances in this country of antiquated legislation being trumped by newer measures. I agree that patient "comfortability" with care provider is important, and can facilitate treatment, but we're opening up the flood gates if we acquiesce to every complaint a person may have about who or what his physician is.

As a side note, I also find it inexplicably hilarious that a person too young to pursue an MD is advised to "just go get a PhD," as though life experience is not an asset in any other career path.
 
it does not apply to schooling. it definitely applies to residency. and it is a mere 2 years from average middle school completion to 16. high school is not mandatory.

although it may be 14.... but hell, that is still on the table since we are talking about age restritions in any fashion. if a 15 year old can graduate college then I assume a 12 year old can graduate HS. he would then be subject to labor laws for at least 2 years i believe

Sorry, I thought that you were talking about medical school.

I think we'll agree on these two points, and the rest should probably be thrown away for later:

1. There should be no minimum age cap on medical school admission, with the [potential] caveat (depending on which one of us you're talking to) being that a resident can't legally begin working until he's turned 18 (or 16, or 14 depending on what set of rules we're working with).

2. There is a significant chance that lawsuits would be more likely and more viable against a minor resident, which might/does (depending on which one of us you're talking to) constitute a compelling reason to exclude minors from residency training.
 
Sorry, I thought that you were talking about medical school.

I think we'll agree on these two points, and the rest should probably be thrown away for later:

1. There should be no minimum age cap on medical school admission, with the [potential] caveat (depending on which one of us you're talking to) being that a resident can't legally begin working until he's turned 18 (or 16, or 14 depending on what set of rules you might be working with).

2. There is a significant chance that lawsuits would be more likely and more viable against a minor resident, which might/does (depending on which one of us you're talking to) constitute a compelling reason to exclude minors from residency training.

ish.... however if we bar med students from participating in things that residents would be barred from for similar reasons it would be very difficult to get through clerkships, pass the clinical component of Step 2, and possibly the knowledge component of Step2.

I think the most appropriate bar should be set with 3rd year clerkships starting no sooner than 18 years old, but many schools have different things you can do between 2nd and 3rd. research, graduate work, even personal hiatus (hiati? how the heck to you pluralize that?)
 
ish.... however if we bar med students from participating in things that residents would be barred from for similar reasons it would be very difficult to get through clerkships, pass the clinical component of Step 2, and possibly the knowledge component of Step2.

I think the most appropriate bar should be set with 3rd year clerkships starting no sooner than 18 years old, but many schools have different things you can do between 2nd and 3rd. research, graduate work, even personal hiatus (hiati? how the heck to you pluralize that?)

I don't know if I feel that's fair. Residents have a different job than medical students with different liabilities. I'm not sure that the lawsuit reason applies; as a medical student, you're under the supervision of an MD and its automatically assumed that you're not an expert, even totally ignoring minor status. And as a student, labor laws don't apply because it's not a job.

This is all predicated on the idea that your main arguments were legal arguments and not moral, though.
 
we live in a country where morals result in legislation (far more often than I think it should, however....) my issue wasnt liability due to skill. I assumed for the sake of argument that a teenager can be just as capable as an adult. The issue was about the adult-child contact (and again, there are assumptions because I dont know all the legalities, this is just for the sense of discussion). So it isnt distinctions between the job or duties that I have been trying to address - but distinctions about age and appropriate conduct between adults and children and this potentially being compromised in a clinical setting.
liability doesnt necessarily mean malpractice liability.

the basic question is "is it appropriate for a child to be alone in a room with a disrobed adult, regardless of circumstances?" this has both moral and legal components. in an ideal world child predation wouldnt exist and it wouldnt be a talking point. but it is.

lol if your curriculum is set up anything like mine by the end of the first year you will be very aware of all the various reasons you may get sued in the future. I am not saying it is at all clean cut, i am just saying that my position is to deny minors any opportunity to be in compromising situations while performing education related tasks. I dont think medical training can be completed without being exposed to these circumstances.
 
we live in a country where morals result in legislation (far more often than I think it should, however....) my issue wasnt liability due to skill. I assumed for the sake of argument that a teenager can be just as capable as an adult. The issue was about the adult-child contact (and again, there are assumptions because I dont know all the legalities, this is just for the sense of discussion). So it isnt distinctions between the job or duties that I have been trying to address - but distinctions about age and appropriate conduct between adults and children and this potentially being compromised in a clinical setting.
liability doesnt necessarily mean malpractice liability.

the basic question is "is it appropriate for a child to be alone in a room with a disrobed adult, regardless of circumstances?" this has both moral and legal components. in an ideal world child predation wouldnt exist and it wouldnt be a talking point. but it is.

lol if your curriculum is set up anything like mine by the end of the first year you will be very aware of all the various reasons you may get sued in the future. I am not saying it is at all clean cut, i am just saying that my position is to deny minors any opportunity to be in compromising situations while performing education related tasks.

But this just engenders an additional question: "Who is and who isn't a child?" The current legislation dictating that 18 is a universal cutoff for adulthood seems more arbitrary and less based in moral precepts.
 
I refuse to accept that I would be an inferior doctor because I'm female, and I apply the same logic to my age.
Non sequitur.

You are not automatically granted a patient's respect- you must earn it. That is no different for a doctor of any age. I plan to earn my patients' respect through hard work and diligent care, a technique whose effectiveness is blind to ones birth date.
That's wishful thinking on your part.

Patients are more skeptical of you, the younger you are/look. Ask me how I know.

I call bs. Difficult news is difficult, no matter who is telling you. If you trust that the doctor did everything she could, then her age/race/gender are unimportant. A 50 year old Caucasian male attending has to earn that trust just like everyone else.
Your naivete is showing through pretty strongly.

I cannot figure out how this is at all relevant.
We see that.
 
Why should he have to wait to pursue his dreams, though? If that kid had the stats to get into med school, he worked his rear off. He deserves that spot in med school. I don't understand how anybody can say otherwise. I think it's wise that he pursued an MD/PhD, as it will give more credibility to his residency application and allow him to apply as a legal adult. I don't think he could have matched at 16. Age discrimination at its most legal, unfortunately.
Might depend on the child labor laws in that state...

I know how much work it takes to graduate so young- although he has me beat. I graduated college at 15 (I'm old... sniff) and am currently trying to gain admission to med school. He deserves that spot in med school and (assuming he graduates with good scores and LORs) that spot in residency. To deny him what I see as a hard-earned right leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
Ah, now I see. Your sense of entitlement is a problem here. No one has a right to med school. I didn't, he didn't, and you don't.

I prefer to think of it as having a unique perspective. You're biased as well. In fact, I'd say anybody older than him is biased.
You call it bias. I call it experience. I was once 16, but you haven't been 27. Being younger than me doesn't give you a unique perspective: it gives you a more limited perspective. It might not be inadequate, but it lacks some things.

It's not fair that a 40 year old nontrad with not that many years left to practice is given a seat while a 22 year old is denied it.
Oh, really? Is it fair that we let women into med school, knowing that they (on average) will work fewer hours than their male counterparts?
 
These outside factors are things that physically bar people from becoming physicians. Someone missing both hands, for example, would be unable to become a competent physician due to their physical inability to perform a physical exam, use certain techniques, etc. However, age is not a physical disability. Treating it like one is only discouraging gifted kids from reaching their full potential. After all, if your options are: work hard, graduate early, then not get accepted until you've essentially wasted all the years you gained by working hard or put in an average amount of work (comparatively), graduate normally, and get in?
What about a quadriplegic?
 
But this just engenders an additional question: "Who is and who isn't a child?" The current legislation dictating that 18 is a universal cutoff for adulthood seems more arbitrary and less based in moral precepts.

ill give you that one. and that answer has a direct impact on the end effect of this policy (if it were a policy).

but there are a LOT of legal consequences associated with that arbitrary cutoff that are integral to a wide variety of our day-to-day lives.
Want to move the age of majority down to 16? ok.... but this means that the creepy 40 year old down the street with the camaro can date your 16 year old sister... how OK are we with this law now?

we have defined, as a society, an arbitrary line where we have defined a person as not capable of adult decisions. We do this because when we go way down on the spectrum it is obvious (can that dude date ur 6 year old sister? oh hell no...) ok.... obvious. As we move up the spectrum it becomes less clear. Can he date your 17 year old sister? what's 1 year? Even a few months? I mean... that is a hard line. No fudge room in most states without excessive hoop jumping. So as a society we got together and looked at the gray area and picked something that appealed to everyone.


this entire discussion centers on the point of whether or not assumptions can be made about an entire group of people based on age, and if it is OK to repeal such regulation when faced with statistical outliers. It seems so simple when we keep the discussion to something innocuous or even admirable like professional endeavor.

But if we are accepting the point that young people mature emotionally and mentally at different rates then we cannot really restrict the conversation only to academic ability (i mean... does it sound reasonable to claim factually that young people develop at different rates, but this development is restricted to the science, math, art, and music centers of the brain? -did i miss any classifications of child prodigy? gamers....?) Ive been a little entertained by the irony for awhile now, actually. The line at 18, whether appropriate or not, serves a purpose.

if we accept outliers in academia we have to accept outliers in every aspect of human development. we dont necessarily need to keep on the creepy pedo vibe though... but along similar lines, maybe there ARE 16 year olds who are ready to have families and make decisions about how they do so. maybe there are 12 year olds (wanted to keep it on topic to thread :confused:). The issue at the heart of this is whether or not it is appropriate to abandon a generalization - and subsequent rules- simply because a minority of people don't fit the mold.

this is all coming down, again, on adult/child interactions. if we assume it is ok for children to be exposed to this (and this discussion hasnt proposed any alternative "lines", so we can go as young as 12 easily) in in some settings we are saying it is ok in others - or at least opening that door.

so i think, according to the current laws, pelvic exams, DRE's, "under brief" exams, hernia checks..... whatever... inappropriate for minors to perform, especially on adults.
 
Might depend on the child labor laws in that state...


Ah, now I see. Your sense of entitlement is a problem here. No one has a right to med school. I didn't, he didn't, and you don't.


You call it bias. I call it experience. I was once 16, but you haven't been 27. Being younger than me doesn't give you a unique perspective: it gives you a more limited perspective. It might not be inadequate, but it lacks some things.


Oh, really? Is it fair that we let women into med school, knowing that they (on average) will work fewer hours than their male counterparts?
ouch dude.... maternity isnt an issue I really want to get into. its also very subjective and lacks the clear boundaries (even if they are arbitrary boundaries) that i have tried to adhere to so far....
 
ouch dude.... maternity isnt an issue I really want to get into. its also very subjective and lacks the clear boundaries (even if they are arbitrary boundaries) that i have tried to adhere to so far....
I'm not saying we get into it at all. I'm saying we ignore this idea of what is "fair" and "unfair" about med school applicants in lieu of simply accepting the best applicants you can. I can see some merit to admitting some "alternative" applicants to bring some diversity, but in general, may the best man win.
 
i can get down with that. ive heard past discussion of "fair" and the end result of one person's "fair" is a sub-par clinician who may end up killing someone.... if a more dramatic case of the subjective nature of "fair" exists....
 
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