12-year-old Begins Medical School...

[dreamweaver1988]

I still like that he got a 1500 on the SAT when we was eight years old. LOL.

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[tantacles]

I'm on the "no age cutoffs" side.

The word maturity is generally used to indicate qualities that come later in life. Notably, though, we only use that word to describe positive qualities.

And I think it's important to recognize that some people, at an earlier age, have positive qualities and skills that others gain later. If we just look at people and what they do, we can see that there are people who act in an antisocial way far into adulthood; there are people who bully and harass others for their entire lives; and there are some people who will rob banks for a living.

And I don't see these as immature things. I just see them as awful. It would be nice if maturity could be decoupled from awesomeness, at least semantically, because I think this kind of student would be much better understood if they were.

So step back and consider his circumstances. He was homeschooled. There are plenty of homeschooled kids, and many of them go on to college and at least some of them into medicine. These kids didn't have the typical experiences of a middle-schooler, and I felt that time in my life was terrifyingly traumatic (even though, in all honesty, it wasn't that bad).

I'm envious that this guy got to the point he's at without having to suffer through some of the awful experiences that people have in middle school and high school, but the fact is that he got there. He had a quality (that some people develop as they get older, but certainly not all) that made him value academics extremely highly. Something made him care about his career and know what field he wanted to enter by age 9 or 10 (and some people also develop this in their lives at some point, but certainly not all, as evidenced by people who make career changes in their 60's).

But I think that rather than framing him as a prodigy, as some sort of genius (I'm not disputing whether or not he's a genius), it might be more beneficial to simply look at him as someone who has accomplished an awesome feat and happens to have 8-10 more years ahead of him to learn about everything medicine has to offer than we do (non-trads, do your own math for this part.). To understand his ambitions and accomplishments as anything less than ambitions and accomplishments because of his age, to me, is just punishing this kid for being different.

/nonsenseramble

 

[plumazul]

And I think it's important to recognize that some people, at an earlier age, have positive qualities and skills that others gain later.

Since the student is studying to be a physician scientist, it might also be important to recognize that young people sometimes have positive qualities that many will LOSE later in life. It is possible the admins at Pritzker understood this.

 

[tantacles]

Since the student is studying to be a physician scientist, it might also be important to recognize that young people sometimes have positive qualities that many will LOSE later in life. It is possible the admins at Pritzker understood this.

Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I suppose that's true as well.

Keep in mind, though, that this kind of discrimination is actually illegal, though it is generally only applied to people who are in their 50s and 60s.

 

[BrandNewDay]

Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I suppose that's true as well.

Keep in mind, though, that this kind of discrimination is actually illegal, though it is generally only applied to people who are in their 50s and 60s.

THIS x 1000000000.

It's really unfortunate that discriminating against the young is so accepted.

 

[tantacles]

THIS x 1000000000.

It's really unfortunate that discriminating against the young is so accepted.

Yeah, I know this particularly applies to you. I definitely empathize, and unfortunately, it's pretty hard to prove that you've been discriminated against based on actual age or other factors. Otherwise, I'd totally suggest a lawsuit.

 

[Sephiroth]

THIS x 1000000000.

It's really unfortunate that discriminating against the young is so accepted.

Yeah, I know this particularly applies to you. I definitely empathize, and unfortunately, it's pretty hard to prove that you've been discriminated against based on actual age or other factors. Otherwise, I'd totally suggest a lawsuit.

Agreed. I know that anti-discrimination laws particularly apply to renting houses/apartments, but the age-discrimination only applies to older people, not younger. It sucks because some places and houses I've looked at near colleges won't rent to people young enough to be in undergrad, which I think is BS. Ask for a bigger security deposit if you're really worried about them messing up the place.

 

[BrandNewDay]

Agreed. I know that anti-discrimination laws particularly apply to renting houses/apartments, but the age-discrimination only applies to older people, not younger. It sucks because some places and houses I've looked at near colleges won't rent to people young enough to be in undergrad, which I think is BS. Ask for a bigger security deposit if you're really worried about them messing up the place.

Take it from somebody who needs to rent an apartment in a different state before she turns 18- Landlords are the devil (as Mama says).

 

[NCOldie]

Take it from somebody who needs to rent an apartment in a different state before she turns 18- Landlords are the devil (as Mama says).

I find it ridiculous that financial aid does not consider someone independent until the age of 24. I am over 24, but I ran into a huge issue with this before I hit that age. I think someone going to college, away from parents especially, should not be dependent on their parents. Think about it...people tend to graduate with a bachelor degree at 22! Why would they need to count a parent's income? I paid my parent's bills when I was in high school. lol So, if anything, my parent's have been dependent on me...

Anyway, the rules are made because of things that have gone wrong and are also based on the majority, not the minority. Unfortunately, the impact on the individual is far too significant for medical schools to take a chance of that. Stress is hard to handle as an adult, but for a younger person it can be even more difficult.

I would also like to mention that I would not feel comfortable AT ALL with a younger person seeing me naked or partially nude. It really has little to do with the academic understanding of medicine as it has to do with the patients that physician will end up seeing.
Maturity cannot make up for the fact that patients would be uncomfortable.

 

[BrandNewDay]

I would also like to mention that I would not feel comfortable AT ALL with a younger person seeing me naked or partially nude. It really has little to do with the academic understanding of medicine as it has to do with the patients that physician will end up seeing.
Maturity cannot make up for the fact that patients would be uncomfortable.

Personally, I've never met a doctor who introduced herself as "Hi, I'm Dr. So-and-So and I'm 32 years old." In my case, I'm a 5'11", female, 16 year old who regularly gets mistaken for a grad student. Obviously, there's no way to measure how old one looks, but it is a valid point. So long as the student is courteous and professional, age doesn't matter.

 

[Sephiroth]

Personally, I've never met a doctor who introduced herself as "Hi, I'm Dr. So-and-So and I'm 32 years old." In my case, I'm a 5'11", female, 16 year old who regularly gets mistaken for a grad student. Obviously, there's no way to measure how old one looks, but it is a valid point. So long as the student is courteous and professional, age doesn't matter.

Are you applying this cycle? If so, then you would have your MD at 20 or 21. For women in particular, by 20 it's hard to tell their age up til their early 30s (just by physical appearance, other things can give it away). I've met some who were 26 and looked 18, and vice versa.

 

[BrandNewDay]

Are you applying this cycle? If so, then you would have your MD at 20 or 21. For women in particular, by 20 it's hard to tell their age up til their early 30s (just by physical appearance, other things can give it away). I've met some who were 26 and looked 18, and vice versa.

I did apply- my second cycle, actually. I'm interviewless. It seems to me that a patient either won't notice or won't care. Ive often wondered if one of my classmates was a young one like me. I usually just get over it and treat her like a classmate. That's very much the way I've been treated by professors (once I got away from the maternal ones when I was 11). Puberty was a blessing of disguise.

 

[NickNaylor]

I find it ridiculous that financial aid does not consider someone independent until the age of 24. I am over 24, but I ran into a huge issue with this before I hit that age. I think someone going to college, away from parents especially, should not be dependent on their parents. Think about it...people tend to graduate with a bachelor degree at 22! Why would they need to count a parent's income? I paid my parent's bills when I was in high school. lol So, if anything, my parent's have been dependent on me...

Anyway, the rules are made because of things that have gone wrong and are also based on the majority, not the minority. Unfortunately, the impact on the individual is far too significant for medical schools to take a chance of that. Stress is hard to handle as an adult, but for a younger person it can be even more difficult.

I would also like to mention that I would not feel comfortable AT ALL with a younger person seeing me naked or partially nude. It really has little to do with the academic understanding of medicine as it has to do with the patients that physician will end up seeing.
Maturity cannot make up for the fact that patients would be uncomfortable.

As a professional/graduate student, you're considered independent by the DOE, and you don't have to provide parental information in order to qualify for federal loans. Schools request this information for institutional loans/grants, which are significantly limited.

 

[brycepj]

what. in. the. world.

 

[drizzt3117]

I would also like to mention that I would not feel comfortable AT ALL with a younger person seeing me naked or partially nude. It really has little to do with the academic understanding of medicine as it has to do with the patients that physician will end up seeing.
Maturity cannot make up for the fact that patients would be uncomfortable.

Do you run from young people in the locker room?

 

[Lil Mick]

I've faced a lot of age-discrimination, and it's never easy taking a less-traveled path. Kudos to this kid and his family for fighting for an appropriate, albeit different, educational path for their children. If he's mature enough for the adcom that chose him, he's probably mature enough for medical school.

 

[45408]

Do you run from young people in the locker room?

I haven't been in a locker room that had children in it since I was a minor, honestly. Every gym I've belonged to in the last decade had a men's locker room.

 

[SpecterGT260]

so what exactly are the ethics of a 17 year old clinician giving a pelvic exam? being a physician does encompass some factors of who you are - even those out of your control

and side note: what about a MAX age? we have a student in our class in his 50s, and more than 1 in their 40s. I understand this isnt exactly unusual anymore, but I do somewhat wonder if the state which funds a significant proportion of these individuals education will ever see a return on investment... I mean, by the time residency is done you have 10 years to practice before you could statistically drop dead at any moment?

 

[BrandNewDay]

so what exactly are the ethics of a 17 year old clinician giving a pelvic exam? being a physician does encompass some factors of who you are - even those out of your control

As an almost 17 year old, I wouldn't have a problem giving a pelvic exam to a woman (for obvious reasons). While my experience with the other gender is limited (nearly nonexistent), I would be able to put aside my discomfort and conduct myself professionally in the presence of a penis. That's hardly age-specific, however. As long as someone can conduct herself professionally, then she should be granted the same rights as her peers, regardless of her age.

 

[235788]

imagine being told your father died while in surgery...by a 21 year old attending.

i feel like the age adds to it

 

[RDlv]

As an almost 17 year old, I wouldn't have a problem giving a pelvic exam to a woman (for obvious reasons). While my experience with the other gender is limited (nearly nonexistent), I would be able to put aside my discomfort and conduct myself professionally in the presence of a penis. That's hardly age-specific, however. As long as someone can conduct herself professionally, then she should be granted the same rights as her peers, regardless of her age.

The sad irony being that getting pregnant would grant you these rights, but your intellectual ability and maturity does not. Also sad that the barriers others propose are related to the relation of your age and the possibility of seeing someone "nekkid." Keep at it, I'm personally kind of impressed (and I'm hella jaded, so that's saying something).

 

[SpecterGT260]

and it isnt all on you. the patient has input here as well. you could be the most mature person in the world. but as a minor there are ethical/legal issues and concerns about patient satisfaction.

 

[BrandNewDay]

imagine being told your father died while in surgery...by a 21 year old attending.

i feel like the age adds to it

It'd somehow be easier to be told by a 31 year old attending? This argument is similar to the ones used to bar women and African Americans from becoming doctors. Imagine being told your father died while in surgery... by a black attending.

If the 21 year old delivers care that meets the same standards that an attending of a more typical age does, why is the 21 year old somehow inferior? I'm certainly not asking for lowered standards. However, if I can meet all of the requirements, why shouldn't I be granted the same rights as someone several years my senior?

and it isnt all on you. the patient has input here as well. you could be the most mature person in the world. but as a minor there are ethical/legal issues and concerns about patient satisfaction.

Personally, the only age limit I could possibly condone is one that requires a student to be 18 entering residency. As a med student, the liability isn't on you- it's on your supervisors, regardless of your age. I can't possibly think of an ethical issue that I would automatically be less able to handle than one of my older peers with identical training. Yes, the younger among us might not have the same life experience that others have. However, we allow the childless to become pediatricians and counsel parents on proper childcare techniques. Some life experiences might make someone a better doctor- but they aren't required to become a doctor. As a result, it seems unfair to assume that a 22 year old has said experiences while a 16 year old does not- especially when that assumption is used as the basis to discriminate against the 16 year old.

 

[Dr Love]

...

 

[45408]

It'd somehow be easier to be told by a 31 year old attending?

Yes.

This argument is similar to the ones used to bar women and African Americans from becoming doctors. Imagine being told your father died while in surgery... by a black attending.

Every 21 year old will eventually be 31, unless they die. I don't know many women who will eventually become men, and Michael Jackson is the only person I know to have changed race.

 

[eHombre]

It'd somehow be easier to be told by a 31 year old attending? This argument is similar to the ones used to bar women and African Americans from becoming doctors. Imagine being told your father died while in surgery... by a black attending.

It's this kind of stellar reasoning that suggests you might be better off gaining some perspective by spending a few more years interacting with the world. You know, there are more interesting things you could be doing at 17 other than applying to medical school. At any rate, your argument lends itself far too easily to reductio ad absurdum...

 

[eHombre]

Every 21 year old will eventually be 31, unless they die. I don't know many women who will eventually become men, and Michael Jackson is the only person I know to have changed race.

I lol'd.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Yes.


Every 21 year old will eventually be 31, unless they die. I don't know many women who will eventually become men, and Michael Jackson is the only person I know to have changed race.

I guess I am being a little too vague with my point. I dont know the law exactly, but I do know there are parts of medical trianing, specifically in 3rd and 4th years, which are "mature" in subject matter. I think there could be legal ramifications to allowing someone who is legally defined as a "child" to perform an exam on an "adult". At the very least such a student would have to be directly supervised at all times and not left alone under any circumstances with a patient.

if a 30 y/o male physician is going to perform an exam on a 15 y/o female patient there needs to be supervision. From a strict legal point of view (or at least just my understanding) I don't see why anything would be different if the roles were reversed. We are still talking about children and adults in potentially compromising situations and in today's social and political climate that is asking for trouble.

and I agree at the very least that we should put a lower limit on residency... although it may not be necessary..... I dont know how many hospitals would be all that crazy about matching a teenager. even if the kid has the mental and emotional maturity of a 50 year old, he is a walking lawsuit for the hospital.... and does anyone know about malpractice insurance in here? can the insurance companies place their own restrictions on the docs they provide for? im just throwing out some convoluting ideas here....

 

[pre med 2014]

Wow! I have a ten year old sister who thinks farts are funny.

 

[Sephiroth]

Wow! I have a ten year old sister who thinks farts are funny.

and I know guys in their 30s who think farts are funny. What's your point?

 

[SpecterGT260]

I think farts are funny.....

 

[Sephiroth]

I think farts are funny.....

then obviously you would make a terrible doctor and should drop out of med school right now

 

[SpecterGT260]

just gotta hope malpractice covers giggling at bodily expulsions

 

[BrandNewDay]

It's this kind of stellar reasoning that suggests you might be better off gaining some perspective by spending a few more years interacting with the world. You know, there are more interesting things you could be doing at 17 other than applying to medical school. At any rate, your argument lends itself far too easily to reductio ad absurdum...

Cute kid, but that's about the only redeeming quality of this post. There are more interesting things anybody could be doing at any point in time than applying to med school. You're following your dream, I'm following mine. However, I don't see you criticizing your own life experience. If it is so crucial to becoming a good doctor as SDN often insists, then med schools are currently churning out a boatload of crappy doctors. It is very rare that I meet a 22 year old who I'd consider mature or cultured. We *all* still have a lot to learn about the world- a journey we should at least accept, if not look forward to.

I refuse to accept that I would be an inferior doctor because I'm female, and I apply the same logic to my age. You are not automatically granted a patient's respect- you must earn it. That is no different for a doctor of any age. I plan to earn my patients' respect through hard work and diligent care, a technique whose effectiveness is blind to ones birth date.

Yes.

I call bs. Difficult news is difficult, no matter who is telling you. If you trust that the doctor did everything she could, then her age/race/gender are unimportant. A 50 year old Caucasian male attending has to earn that trust just like everyone else.

Every 21 year old will eventually be 31, unless they die. I don't know many women who will eventually become men, and Michael Jackson is the only person I know to have changed race.

I cannot figure out how this is at all relevant. Until med schools add an age/life experience requirement, then I am perfectly able to complete the necessary requirements to graduate. In my case, I'd be a legal adult before M3, so liability would be lessened. It doesn't matter that I could also attend med school years down the road. So could you. You could have delayed med school and gained life experiences before applying at 30 (assuming you weren't, of course, a non trad to begin with). While it might be a beneficial choice, few premeds choose it because they put following their dreams ahead of chasing an abstract concept. Why do you fault me for doing the same?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Cute kid, but that's about the only redeeming quality of this post. There are more interesting things anybody could be doing at any point in time than applying to med school. You're following your dream, I'm following mine. I refuse to accept that I would be an inferior doctor because I'm female, and I apply the same logic to my age. You are not automatically granted a patient's respect- you must earn it. That is no different for a doctor of any age. I plan to earn my patients' respect through hard work and diligent care, a technique whose effectiveness is blind to ones birth date.

thats pretty idealistic.... I am a current med student and we have a shadowing component to our curriculum. I can already tell you that just being younger than most docs made some patients uncomfortable with me in the exam room. I was asked to wait outside by more than 1. I'm in my mid 20s so you can see what sorts of issues this kid may have

 

[BrandNewDay]

thats pretty idealistic.... I am a current med student and we have a shadowing component to our curriculum. I can already tell you that just being younger than most docs made some patients uncomfortable with me in the exam room. I was asked to wait outside by more than 1. I'm in my mid 20s so you can see what sorts of issues this kid may have

I edited my last post, since I am a fail at the multi-quote button. You may want to reread.

Yes, there will always be patients who prefer an older (or male, or white) doctor. That won't ever change. It doesn't bother me. It shouldn't bother him. I know that many patients put their embarrassment aside in order to help teach a student. Others simply don't care. This kid probably has faced and will face a greater number of patients asking for a different doctor. While there are steps he can take to combat this, he should simply learn what he can. It may make it slightly harder, but it won't prevent him from becoming a great doctor.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I edited my last post, since I am a fail at the multi-quote button. You may want to reread.

Yes, there will always be patients who prefer an older (or male, or white) doctor. That won't ever change. It doesn't bother me. It shouldn't bother him. I know that many patients put their embarrassment aside in order to help teach a student. Others simply don't care. This kid probably has faced and will face a greater number of patients asking for a different doctor. While there are steps he can take to combat this, he should simply learn what he can. It may make it slightly harder, but it won't prevent him from becoming a great doctor.

it also wont prevent him from becoming a great doctor.... at age 22. I understand your argument but it doesn't address the issue. we arent suggesting this kid get the boot. we are suggesting he wait. IMO putting a teenager into med school or potentially residency is just asking everyone else to bear the extra burden created. If a 12 year old can start med school then a 16 year old can potentially be a resident. And I still think legally a hospital would want a 16 year old chaperoned at all times with patients regardless of skill level.

also, "it shouldn't bother him" is by definition "idealistic".


brandnewday - are you trying to apply at an early age?

 

[Sephiroth]

I edited my last post, since I am a fail at the multi-quote button. You may want to reread.

Yes, there will always be patients who prefer an older (or male, or white) doctor. That won't ever change. It doesn't bother me. It shouldn't bother him. I know that many patients put their embarrassment aside in order to help teach a student. Others simply don't care. This kid probably has faced and will face a greater number of patients asking for a different doctor. While there are steps he can take to combat this, he should simply learn what he can. It may make it slightly harder, but it won't prevent him from becoming a great doctor.

Given your av, I'm surprised you haven't pulled out this old doogie howser quote: "I'd be happy to get you an older doctor who is less qualified"

 

[BrandNewDay]

it also wont prevent him from becoming a great doctor.... at age 22. I understand your argument but it doesn't address the issue. we arent suggesting this kid get the boot. we are suggesting he wait. IMO putting a teenager into med school or potentially residency is just asking everyone else to bear the extra burden created. If a 12 year old can start med school then a 16 year old can potentially be a resident. And I still think legally a hospital would want a 16 year old chaperoned at all times with patients regardless of skill level.

also, "it shouldn't bother him" is by definition "idealistic".


brandnewday - are you trying to apply at an early age?

Why should he have to wait to pursue his dreams, though? If that kid had the stats to get into med school, he worked his rear off. He deserves that spot in med school. I don't understand how anybody can say otherwise. I think it's wise that he pursued an MD/PhD, as it will give more credibility to his residency application and allow him to apply as a legal adult. I don't think he could have matched at 16. Age discrimination at its most legal, unfortunately.

I know how much work it takes to graduate so young- although he has me beat. I graduated college at 15 (I'm old... sniff) and am currently trying to gain admission to med school. He deserves that spot in med school and (assuming he graduates with good scores and LORs) that spot in residency. To deny him what I see as a hard-earned right leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Given your av, I'm surprised you haven't pulled out this old doogie howser quote: "I'd be happy to get you an older doctor who is less qualified"

My avatar is Dr. Horrible, actually. I can't stand Doogie Howser. After years of jokes, I finally watched the first episode and couldn't finish it. I pride myself on being far more socially adjusted... although I do like that quote.

 

[Sephiroth]

My avatar is Dr. Horrible, actually. I can't stand Doogie Howser. After years of jokes, I finally watched the first episode and couldn't finish it. I pride myself on being far more socially adjusted... although I do like that quote.

Lol, I know, I've seen all the Dr. Horrible sing-a-long blogs. NPH was way younger when he did Doogie Howser, but it was still NPH. Can't say I've really watched much of that show, so I dont know, I just remember that one line very well.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Why should he have to wait to pursue his dreams, though? If that kid had the stats to get into med school, he worked his rear off. He deserves that spot in med school. I don't understand how anybody can say otherwise. I think it's wise that he pursued an MD/PhD, as it will give more credibility to his residency application and allow him to apply as a legal adult. I don't think he could have matched at 16. Age discrimination at its most legal, unfortunately.

I know how much work it takes to graduate so young- although he has me beat. I graduated college at 15 (I'm old... sniff) and am currently trying to gain admission to med school. He deserves that spot in med school and (assuming he graduates with good scores and LORs) that spot in residency. To deny him what I see as a hard-earned right leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.



My avatar is Dr. Horrible, actually. I can't stand Doogie Howser. After years of jokes, I finally watched the first episode and couldn't finish it. I pride myself on being far more socially adjusted... although I do like that quote.

so..... What you're saying is you're biased...


all of my statements were objective (albeit speculative), and you are throwing raw emotion back at it.... to lend some perspective here - against the argument that there is the potential for patient discomfort and potential for residency programs to rank him because of this - you respond with "he worked hard, ive worked hard, and this is so unfair!" working hard does nothing to affect outer perceptions, and fairness is subjective. is it fair he be given a med school seat when he is practically guaranteed one at 18 or 20 while someone with bills to pay and a potentially promising career at 23 is forced to take a different path simply to support him or herself due to lack of seats?

I understand there are very few of these child prodigies. But that is what makes this argument (and yours) subjective. Who are you or anyone else to decide where we draw the line? (not that you actually are... im just sayin...)

 

[BrandNewDay]

Lol, I know, I've seen all the Dr. Horrible sing-a-long blogs. NPH was way younger when he did Doogie Howser, but it was still NPH. Can't say I've really watched much of that show, so I dont know, I just remember that one line very well.

My love for NPH requires me to deny that Doogie Howser ever existed.

so..... What you're saying is you're biased...


all of my statements were objective (albeit speculative), and you are throwing raw emotion back at it.... to lend some perspective here - against the argument that there is the potential for patient discomfort and potential for residency programs to rank him because of this - you respond with "he worked hard, ive worked hard, and this is so unfair!" working hard does nothing to affect outer perceptions, and fairness is subjective. is it fair he be given a med school seat when he is practically guaranteed one at 18 or 20 while someone with bills to pay and a potentially promising career at 23 is forced to take a different path simply to support him or herself due to lack of seats?

I understand there are very few of these child prodigies. But that is what makes this argument (and yours) subjective. Who are you or anyone else to decide where we draw the line? (not that you actually are... im just sayin...)

I prefer to think of it as having a unique perspective. You're biased as well. In fact, I'd say anybody older than him is biased. We're jealous of his abilities and eager to point out why he's not actually that good. I've certainly struggled with that in the past (and still do). You mention the potential for patient discomfort. I realize I've used this argument before, but this was, in fact, a reason cited to prevent African Americans from becoming doctors. After all, who'd want to be treated by a black doctor? We shouldn't bend to that kind of prejudice when it comes to race or gender- why is age so different? If (and it's a big if) someone can do the job well and jump all of the hurdles required, they should be granted every opportunity as his or her peers- and that means not being forced to delay their dreams. I would argue that a 12 year old trained at Pritzker who's in his early 20s now and about to graduate (I believe) is likely to be a better doctor than someone who barely made it out of a no-name Carribean school at 26.

It's also not fair that a three time reapplicant be turned down in favor of a first time applicant with identical stats. It's not fair that, out of two identical applicants, the URM will always be granted the seat, even if they faced no disadvantage because of their race. It's not fair that a 40 year old nontrad with not that many years left to practice is given a seat while a 22 year old is denied it. It's not fair that 40 year old nontrads aren't allowed to finally pursue their dreams while 22 year olds may find out that medicine isn't actually what they want. As you said, fairness is subjective.

That's actually my point- we can't draw a line. There are plenty of 22 year old applicants with great stats that are such colossal, arrogant jerks that I can't believe they'd ever be good doctors. Likewise, there are many kids who can handle a workload beyond what they "should" be able to do. I can think of one person I know well who, given the opportunity, would likely have been able to do what I did (and possibly with better results). People should strive for goals in line with their dreams and abilities- not their birthdates. To have any kind of ceiling placed on somebody's potential accomplishments because of something that they can't control and that is arguably irrelevant is absurd and wrong.

 

[SpecterGT260]

i understand where you're coming from. but i hope you do realize that age restrictions to sex and race restrictions are quite different. and I hope I don't have to explain exactly why.....

and we can draw lines from time to time. nobody has really assessed the legality of this... that is a hard fast line which can be easily used to define this issue. is it appropriate for a child to take part in the more mature and intimate aspects of medical examination. The law defines adults as 18+. A reasonable argument can be made that anyone <18 y/o should not be allowed to participate in several aspects of physical examination which are an integral part of medical practice and antoher argument can be made that states that anyone who does not participate in such aspects should not be licensed to practice (that is already here - step 2 clinical skills). All i am saying is "he worked hard and he should get it" is an invalid argument. this is more complicated than someone getting a gold star or an A for effort.

and medicine does have restrictions that are outside of the control of others. All of us signed (or will sign) statements that we are reasonably able to complete the tasks set forth by us. There are plenty of outside factors that can simply screw someone out of this profession.

 

[SpecterGT260]

http://hms.harvard.edu/admissions/default.asp?page=detailed#section 10

plenty of exclusionary criteria for reasons outside of someone's control

 

[tantacles]

i understand where you're coming from. but i hope you do realize that age restrictions to sex and race restrictions are quite different. and I hope I don't have to explain exactly why.....

and we can draw lines from time to time. nobody has really assessed the legality of this... that is a hard fast line which can be easily used to define this issue. is it appropriate for a child to take part in the more mature and intimate aspects of medical examination. The law defines adults as 18+. A reasonable argument can be made that anyone <18 y/o should not be allowed to participate in several aspects of physical examination which are an integral part of medical practice and antoher argument can be made that states that anyone who does not participate in such aspects should not be licensed to practice (that is already here - step 2 clinical skills). All i am saying is "he worked hard and he should get it" is an invalid argument. this is more complicated than someone getting a gold star or an A for effort.

and medicine does have restrictions that are outside of the control of others. All of us signed (or will sign) statements that we are reasonably able to complete the tasks set forth by us. There are plenty of outside factors that can simply screw someone out of this profession.

Is it possible that certain 17 year olds are more prepared than certain 24 year olds to perform a pelvic exam? I'm just asking, I'm not coming to any conclusion about that statement. However, if the answer is yes, then drawing a line in the sand isn't the answer.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Is it possible that certain 17 year olds are more prepared than certain 24 year olds to perform a pelvic exam? I'm just asking, I'm not coming conclusions about that statement. However, if the answer is yes, then drawing a line in the sand isn't the answer.

I'm not just trying to rag on brandnewday. shes actually significantly more articulate than most 16 year olds of any gender ive interacted with

everyone is on a spectrum, and there may be a 4 year old with a higher sense of sexual maturity and identity than a 30 year old. how do you feel about it then? What i usually like to do is fall back to absurd extremes to get a better sense about how i feel about the gray area - and then cite the reasons that i feel that way.


I dont want to speculate on the mental state of mind of this particular kid (the original 12 year old, even though he is older now...), but I don't think it is unreasonable to cite our societal norms and say it is inappropriate for such contact between a child and an adult regardless of the situation. Ill admit, my reasoning is a little bit of a bummer for the kid (although he can just apply in a couple of years which is REALLY not a long time), but im putting myself (along with my understanding of hospitals) in the situation of patients, clerkship coordinators, and residency coordinators. Patients are real people (duh...), and I would not be comfortable branching into several aspects of medical practice with a child for multiple reasons - my own feelings on the matter and the potential liability that opens myself and my program up to - and then the subsequent steps I would have to take to offset any liabilities


EDIT: realized i am assuming she is 16 given the age of 15 at graduation. i suppose it is possible that was some time ago. but that would raise the question why a child prodigy (arguably appropriate w 15 yo graduation) wouldnt get right into med school.....

 

[BrandNewDay]

i understand where you're coming from. but i hope you do realize that age restrictions to sex and race restrictions are quite different. and I hope I don't have to explain exactly why.....

and we can draw lines from time to time. nobody has really assessed the legality of this... that is a hard fast line which can be easily used to define this issue. is it appropriate for a child to take part in the more mature and intimate aspects of medical examination. The law defines adults as 18+. A reasonable argument can be made that anyone <18 y/o should not be allowed to participate in several aspects of physical examination which are an integral part of medical practice and antoher argument can be made that states that anyone who does not participate in such aspects should not be licensed to practice (that is already here - step 2 clinical skills). All i am saying is "he worked hard and he should get it" is an invalid argument. this is more complicated than someone getting a gold star or an A for effort.

and medicine does have restrictions that are outside of the control of others. All of us signed (or will sign) statements that we are reasonably able to complete the tasks set forth by us. There are plenty of outside factors that can simply screw someone out of this profession.

Please don't patronize me.

A reasonable argument can also be made that there's no reason a child shouldn't be able to complete the necessary medical examinations required by the profession (double negative for the win). He worked hard to learn the techniques- that is why he should be granted the same rights as someone older who did the same.

These outside factors are things that physically bar people from becoming physicians. Someone missing both hands, for example, would be unable to become a competent physician due to their physical inability to perform a physical exam, use certain techniques, etc. However, age is not a physical disability. Treating it like one is only discouraging gifted kids from reaching their full potential. After all, if your options are: work hard, graduate early, then not get accepted until you've essentially wasted all the years you gained by working hard or put in an average amount of work (comparatively), graduate normally, and get in?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Please don't patronize me.

A reasonable argument can also be made that there's no reason a child shouldn't be able to complete the necessary medical examinations required by the profession (double negative for the win). He worked hard to learn the techniques- that is why he should be granted the same rights as someone older who did the same.

These outside factors are things that physically bar people from becoming physicians. Someone missing both hands, for example, would be unable to become a competent physician due to their physical inability to perform a physical exam, use certain techniques, etc. However, age is not a physical disability. Treating it like one is only discouraging gifted kids from reaching their full potential. After all, if your options are: work hard, graduate early, then not get accepted until you've essentially wasted all the years you gained by working hard or put in an average amount of work (comparatively), graduate normally, and get in?

you are right back to your original argument... you completely ignored the logical progression from current legal precedents regarding age and adult/child interaction and its potential application in this situation... and I didnt patronize you.... patronization would be more akin to me pointing out your own similarity to this situation and simply muse about the likelihood of a 16 year old girl making the entire situation about herself....

(Bold) too narrow. he could complete his PhD in the meantime. there is no conflict with patient contact and it would make him a more competitive applicant than he already is. so this obviously isnt his only option.

I get it, you want to go to med school now. that part you have made clear. but if you cant respond on any higher logical level than "i did my chores and i want my allowance" then there is little point in continuing. at the moment you are kind of stomping your feet and holding your breath. please try to see some of these other points of view and at least address them rationally. I am not asking you to agree with me.... but at the moment your position is entirely self serving.


EDIT: and honestly, "self serving" is your god given right to do as well lol. it does, however, affect the impact of your arguments. and if a reasonable argument can be made in favor of young applicants then please make one. degree of work invested is not a reasonable argument to overcome the societal sexual/behavioral norms and laws that could potentially conflict. (and this is all theoretical.... the kid got in and apparently someone else gradutated a 17 year old. Im curious to know how they handled these situations)

 

[MT Headed]

It's not fair that a 40 year old nontrad with not that many years left to practice is given a seat while a 22 year old is denied it.

Lol, if some 22 year old wanted my seat, they should have produced a more compelling application than mine.

Keep fighting the good fight, BrandNewDay. You're far more mature than most posters in pre-allo. I can totally empathize with your situation. I was a prodigy myself back in the day (was eligible for a drivers license my junior year of college). The scholarship I endowed at Johns Hopkins is at their Center for Talented Youth, to ensure that other precocious youth have the same unique opportunities and encouragement that I did. I only hope that when you are more established in life you too will give back to those who helped you out so early on.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Lol, if some 22 year old wanted my seat, they should have produced a more compelling application than mine.

Keep fighting the good fight, BrandNewDay. You're far more mature than most posters in pre-allo. I can totally empathize with your situation. I was a prodigy myself back in the day (was eligible for a drivers license my junior year of college). The scholarship I endowed at Johns Hopkins is at their Center for Talented Youth, to ensure that other precocious youth have the same unique opportunities and encouragement that I did. I only hope that when you are more established in life you too will give back to those who helped you out so early on.

im a little confused by ur post lol. are u non-trad just coming to medicine after doing something else for awhile?

again want to point out - im not just trying to rag on BND here. Just challenging the point of view and asking for coherent backup. if we are too far off topic we can either stop or go elsewhere