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2018 VIRMP Match!

Discussion in 'Veterinary' started by Lab Vet, Oct 14, 2017.

  1. Lab Vet

    Lab Vet Resident, Laboratory Animal Medicine
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    Greetings, fellow 2018ers! Are we all ready for the 2018 match? Program entry officially ended yesterday (10-13-17), and applicants are now permitted to establish accounts. Good luck! I look forward to hearing where we all end up :)
     
  2. epivetlove

    epivetlove Texas A&M c/o 2018!
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    Still on the fence about pursuing specialization...at least right away. I just can't financially justify it. 'Course I should be saying the same thing about even getting the DVM...

    Did you recently decide to get back on the Match Wagon, or am I confusing you with someone else who decided not to pursue residency?

    Good luck to everyone! Can't believe we're already at this stage in the game. Where did the time go! x_x
     
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  3. OP
    OP
    Lab Vet

    Lab Vet Resident, Laboratory Animal Medicine
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    Yup, that's me. I had intended to pursue residency since entering vet school. In early fourth year, I was feeling the burn- tired from preparing for NAVLE/some difficult rotations early on. I've perked up a bit since then, and am planning to throw my hat in the match ring. If it doesn't work out, no worries. I'll mount a job search simultaneously. The whole thing is stressful. Good luck with the NAVLE, and the job search. Don't let anyone pressure you into a specialty. In my mind, GP is one of the toughest jobs out there. Keep us posted on where you end up.
     
  4. katatak

    katatak WesternU 2018
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    Good luck everyone!! I am also trying to pursue LAM (So Cal) but will be simultaneously applying to SAM internships and jobs in GP.
     
  5. VetMedSurvivalGuide

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    Hi everyone. I'm a small animal internist and just recently created a blog aimed to provide information and guidance for pre-veterinary students, currently enrolled vet students, senior vet students considering advanced training, and interns and residents. We also hope to touch on topics relevant to life as a veterinarian.

    Right now we're focusing on the matching program but will eventually switch gears into other topics. We're also in the process of writing an ebook about the whole VIRMP matching program that will hopefully be out by the end of the month. I hope it will be a great help for all the advanced training seekers out there!

    Feel free to check us out by googling vetmedsurvivalguide and share with anyone you think will benefit from it!
     
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  6. kcoughli

    kcoughli Lab Animal Resident
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    Just curious why you're simultaneously applying for SAM internships? There are a few lab animal internships that exist currently (if that's really what you're looking to get into) as well as some lab animal residencies that operate outside of the match. If you're truly focused on lab animal, I would start there as opposed to a SAM rotating internship. That's just my $o.02 though.
     
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  7. VetMedSurvivalGuide

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    Agreed. If you're applying to to both LAM and small animal positions through the match you'll be faced with explaining that on your letter of intent. You're going to have a hard time convincing any selection committee to rank you for either position
     
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    #7 VetMedSurvivalGuide, Oct 20, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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  8. meningealworm

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    Has anyone heard of schools withdrawing from the match?? I was interested in one in particular, but heard from contacts there that it was already offered to someone. Is that a common thing?
     
  9. kcoughli

    kcoughli Lab Animal Resident
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    One of the places I applied to last year contacted me before the actual Match to let me know they didn't receive funding for the position (and thus "withdrew"). I think it'd be pretty unethical for a program to withdraw due to selecting someone outside of the match if they were committed to being in the match.
     
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  10. JaynaAli

    JaynaAli Need it STAT or want it STAT? They're different.
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    But that's the thing, just like applicants can withdraw from the match until a dedicated date, programs have one too. It definitely sucks, but I don't think the program actually did anything wrong. Honestly, it may be better that they withdrew their position rather than string you along through the application cycle, have you rank them #1, and you be disappointed in match day when you didn't match there because they had unofficially picked their candidate months ago and didn't even consider you but didn't tell you that. It definitely sucks, but I can see both sides for sure.


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  11. jmo1012

    jmo1012 SGU (NCSU) c/o 2015!
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    Yes, this does happen from time to time. Both for academics and private practices
     
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  12. VIN-Foundation

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    It depends on what you mean by withdrawing. Just because a program had a position last year doesn't mean they will have one this year.

    If you mean the position was listed on VIRMP this year and now it has been removed ... Programs can withdraw from the match up to a certain deadline (January 26, 2018 11:59 p.m. EST for the upcoming match). After that, if a program does not accept an intern/resident that they matched with, they are penalized by not being allowed to participate in the match for 3 years. There are allowable exceptions, with the most common being loss of funding.

    Offering a position early outside the match is frowned on by some people (me for example) but at least for now, there is no way to force programs to go through the match.

    William Thomas
     
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  13. pinkpuppy9

    pinkpuppy9 Illinois c/o 2019
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    I've heard of residencies declining any applicant that ranked them simply because they didn't feel any were a good fit. Would a program still be penalized for this? If the program doesn't 'like' any of the applicants, do they still have to rank them, or can they pull out of the match at that point?
     
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  14. JaynaAli

    JaynaAli Need it STAT or want it STAT? They're different.
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    I know @pinkpuppy9 quoted VIN Foundation, but from looking at the deadlines on the VIRMP website, the institution rank lists of applicants are due the same date as their last day to withdraw from the match so yes, it does look like that is possible. They could get all applications, review them, then after review/interviews the program could withdraw and not fill their position as long as it is before Jan 26. If the school/clinic submitted their rank list of applicants and then withdrew AFTER that January 26 deadline or failed to follow through with hiring their matched applicant come Feb 12, then yes, I assume the program would be penalized?
     
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  15. pinkpuppy9

    pinkpuppy9 Illinois c/o 2019
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    I wonder how that would affect the students' rankings? Say they ranked the program that withdraws as #1...would their #2 automatically become #1? It's my understanding that differences like that can change where you end up matching depending on how you're ranked by the programs.
     
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  16. VIN-Foundation

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    Programs are free to assign an applicant any rank they want including not ranking an applicant. There is not penalty for this. Just as applicants are free to only apply to programs they want. The penalty comes when a program matches with an applicant and then doesn't take that applicant. Similarly, if an applicant matches to a program and the applicant then doesn't go there, the applicant is penalized.

    Programs don't have to rank anyone they don't want to. If they don't want any of their applicants they don't have to rank anyone.

    Not really. Your rank order list is determined by you. The algorithm always attempts to match you (the applicant) with your #1 ranked program. If that program has ranked you, the algorithm will tentatively match you there. You will stay matched there unless and until an applicant comes along that the program has ranked higher than you. At that point, the algorithm will cancel your match with your #1 program and attempt to match you with your #2 program. And so on.

    So if the program has withdrawn, that would be the same as if the program didn't rank you. The algorithm will try to match you with your #2 program.

    It has been mathematically proven that the algorithm is applicant optimal -- every applicant is always matched to their optimal program. The guy that showed this, an economist named Alvin Roth, won a Nobel prize for this work.
     
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  17. hygebeorht

    hygebeorht radiology is best ology
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    Going to hop on this thread because it's not just 2018ers who are going through the match. Anyone applying for residency gets to enjoy that process, too. So much fun, haha.
     
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  18. OP
    OP
    Lab Vet

    Lab Vet Resident, Laboratory Animal Medicine
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    Good luck!! Hope that your internship year has been fulfilling thus far (I'll be applying to where you're currently at as one of my picks). Thinking about coming back to NCSU for your rads/DI residency? I'm sure they'd love to have you :) Lucky for you, the general match deadline is in December. Mine is next week. Sweating bullets ;) Can't believe clinical year is just about half-way done. NAVLE in December. It's very much a whirlwind, but a satisfying one. First year seems a world away, and yet so close to my memory. Crazy times.
     
  19. hygebeorht

    hygebeorht radiology is best ology
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    I hear you! I would be ecstatic to come back to NCSU for residency.

    It's nice that match deadline isn't for another month. On the other hand, there are several out-of-match programs that I applied to whose deadlines fell during October. So I feel you on the time crunch. Good luck!

    Feel free to shoot me a PM or email if you have questions about the internship here.
     
  20. fractiousfeline

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    Why do you feel that offering a position outside of the match is considered a bad thing?



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  21. VetMedSurvivalGuide

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    It is a "bad" thing because it goes against the spirit and "unwritten"rules of the match. By entering the match and withdrawing because a position was offered before match day, applicants can be affected because the deadlines for applicant and institution withdrawals are different, meaning many people might have their #1 choice removed and there's nothing they can do to re-order their rank.

    If a program wants to offer a position early / outside the match they can and don't need to go through VIRMP at all. If they did enter and the plan was to offer it before match day, they should have never entered it.

    It's also good to remember that sometimes programs withdraw from the match due to funding issues or specialists leaving, not because they offered the position to someone else.
     
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  22. VIN-Foundation

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    Here is an example. About 15 years ago, one program routinely took all of their house officers outside the match. You applied directly to the program and they made their offers before the match. When I asked the program director why they did this he said it was because they seemed to get a better selection compared to going through the match.

    Of course they did -- they were skimming off the best applicants before other program had a chance to offer. More importantly though, it was less fair to the applicant. Imagine you apply to this program and have them ranked 5th on your list. They make you an offer and you have to accept it before the match. What do you do? Do you accept the offer and give up on your higher ranked programs? Or do you decline the offer and risk not matching at all?

    This is the sort of program behavior that led to the match being created in the first place. Programs were racing to make offers before everyone else. And applicants were forced to make decisions on the spot before they had a chance to look at other programs.

    With the match, everyone has the same deadlines and you always match to your highest ranked program possible.

    William Thomas
     
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  23. fractiousfeline

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    Yes, definitely in that example I completely agree. But what if an applicant’s top choice offers them a spot outside of the match because that program also feels like it’s a good fit and the applicant has expressed interest? If it’s a top pick for both parties, then no one really loses out. If the program has multiple spots available, they’d stay in the match for the remaining positions, but if they only had one spot, they’d withdrawal. If it’s a mutual agreement, I don’t see a problem with it. But if programs are just going around offering spots to externs who haven’t necessarily even expressed interest or haven’t outright said “I’d like to go here over all others”, I agree with you that it’s almost like poaching interns to get them to accept without being able to rank a different program higher.


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  24. kcoughli

    kcoughli Lab Animal Resident
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    That scenario you described I think is much less likely than the one quoted. My problem with that is what about the applicants who then wasted $ sending a program an application through the match when they later withdraw because they decided to select someone outside of it? First you have the problem previously described, potentially only "winning" that applicant because a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush (almost any applicant would at least consider accepting an offer from a 3rd or 4th choice over the possibility of not matching at all). Second, you've just now wasted the rest of the applicants time and money applying to your program, and lessened their chances of matching by removing one of their ten options from the field.

    I personally think if a program is going to be in the match then they should honor that and be in the match. If you are the #1 choice for your #1 applicant, then you should match to them and they to you anyway. That's the magic of the match.
     
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  25. VIN-Foundation

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    Correct. In that example, there is no advantage of going through the match. But there is also no disadvantage. Since the program is the applicant's #1 choice and the applicant is the program's #1 choice, they would have matched anyway.

    The problems arise because not every applicant's #1 choice and program's #1 choice are going to match up. And in those cases, which are much more common than the above example, having programs offer early outside the match causes problems.

    So that approach has no advantage for anyone but high risk of disadvantages for a lot of applicants and programs. Because again ... if that sort of system worked well for everyone, there would have been no need to create the match system in the first place.

    William Thomas
     
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  26. privera3

    privera3 Class of 2018!!
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    Has anybody heard any success stories of couples being able to match at the same place? Is there any other ways to increase the chances of doing so (other than the ones listed in the VIRMP website)?
     
  27. VetMedSurvivalGuide

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    A few years ago VIRMP had certain options to try and help couples match in the same program/institution. These are now gone and have been replaced by the general guidelines you mentioned. I personally haven't heard of success stories per se, but I'm sure every once in a while those happen.

    You probably will have better chances in programs that have large intern classes and that are not perceived as being top programs in the country. You shouldn't avoid those, but the competition both of you face will be tougher - both in number and quality of applicants.

    In general, it'll be easier if both of you have really good applications. On the other hand, if one of you has a much stronger application than the other, it'll be harder to end up on the same program as the weaker application will have trouble staying in the "yes" pile.

    Needless to say, your rank order list must be very similar to increase the chances of matching on the same program and you should definitely try what the VIRMP website mentions for couples. Feel free to check my blog for further overall information on the matching program at vetmedsurvivalguide.com
     
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  28. VIN-Foundation

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    Yes, we've had a few couples over the years. There are several things to try.

    1. One person goes through the match and then the other person tries to get into the program after the match
    2. Both persons apply to only one program
    3. Both persons go through the match but talk with the programs to try to get a tentative "deal" that they will both be ranked highly
    4. Go outside the match

    None of these options is great and each has obvious risks. As mentioned above, a few years ago the VIRMP tried a couples match option similar to what MDs have but that only lasted a year or two.
     
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  29. privera3

    privera3 Class of 2018!!
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    Thanks for the info! We figured an internship is only a year so we'll be ok with whatever happens. In other news, I was offered an interview from Angell in Boston. Has anybody heard anything about the interview process is for Angell? I know that for AMC you get to work on a case during the interview. Is Angell similar? Or is it more of a regular type of question interview?
     
  30. kcoughli

    kcoughli Lab Animal Resident
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    To all applicants who interview somewhere:
    1. If you're given contact information (email addresses, etc) from residents or faculty, use it! Send a follow up email, ask a question you forgot to ask at the interview, or just simply thank them for their time meeting you
    2. Send a thank you card. It's so simple and maybe old-fashioned, but seriously do it. Same goes to externship sites if they have a program you intend to apply to (or even if not, vet med is small and little things can make you stand out).
    3. Don't talk about getting drunk and partying with random strangers to the director of the residency program. Yes they might be a really cool person, but that's just not the impression you want to leave during your professional interview.

    This has been a public service announcement from someone who is looking from the other side of the process this year.
     
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  31. OP
    OP
    Lab Vet

    Lab Vet Resident, Laboratory Animal Medicine
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    Thanks for the tips!
     
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  32. bigkittinteef

    bigkittinteef Dick Vet c/o 2017
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    Has anyone heard back from onco residencies? My internmates are starting to get cardio/ecc interview invites and my empty email box is making me nervous. :scared:
     
  33. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    You! I miss you! :biglove:
     
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  34. eeeeeeeeekq

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    any lab animal residency applicants out there who are comfortable sharing what programs they have heard from yet? i had kind of assumed all interview invites were sent out already and then randomly got another this past week, so am completely confused now. any insight appreciated!
     
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  35. kcoughli

    kcoughli Lab Animal Resident
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    First, hi! I get excited to see lab animal peeps around so welcome :)

    Secondly, according to my emails that I never delete I got my last interview invite for my lab animal residency applications last year on December 3rd. So, a little late now based on my experience of the places that I interviewed with but hey, an invite is always good!

    If you have any other questions or want more details or anything I'm happy to chat in PM, just shoot me a message.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using SDN mobile
     
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  36. bigkittinteef

    bigkittinteef Dick Vet c/o 2017
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    Miss you too <3
     
  37. VetMedSurvivalGuide

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    I didn't match the first time I applied for residencies and when I was in your shoes, I didn't hear from anyone until the match results came out regardless of matching or not.

    It doesn't necessarily mean anything. Certain program reach out while others don't. I remember the feeling of wondering why no one was reaching out tough...
     
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  38. fromthebox

    fromthebox In the Box
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    Have not heard anything from surgery programs yet. Our radiology dept is still evaluating/ranking. They’re about half way through the alphabet.
    A friend interviewed for derm yesterday.
    Scary as heck to listen them (radiology) discuss candidates. (I’m on rad rotation).
    Anyone hear from surgery?


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  39. SocialStigma

    SocialStigma OVC c/o 2015
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    Not applying this year but I wouldn't worry too much. At this time last year I had only had 1 surgery residency interview, I think. The rest of my interviews were over the last week of December-early January.
     
  40. hygebeorht

    hygebeorht radiology is best ology
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    :nailbiting:
     
  41. fromthebox

    fromthebox In the Box
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    Bump. Any word for anyone?


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  42. hygebeorht

    hygebeorht radiology is best ology
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    No, not really. I've gotten to see some school friends as they visit for interviews here, which has been nice.
     
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  43. Dogtor_meow

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    Hey guys! Has anyone heard from the AMC in NY? Haven’t received word at all though I know they’ve sent some interview declines already... not sure if I should give up hope yet.
     
  44. Spdycat

    Spdycat c/o 2018
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    Interview invites were sent out December 12th. I do not know if this is the only day they sent out interview invites or if more are on the way.
     
  45. Dogtor_meow

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    Thanks, Spdycat! I wonder what their process is... anyways, may try and get in touch with them.
     
  46. fromthebox

    fromthebox In the Box
    Veterinarian 7+ Year Member

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    They said contact them between the 12th and 20th if you were interested in an interview (at least for surgery residency). I didn’t call them (yay overnights) but I would assume they don’t send after the 20th. :/ cross off another one.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
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  47. allygator13

    allygator13 SGU/UTK c/o 2018!
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    Are you asking for internship or a residency? I got an internship interview invitation from them on Dec. 7th and had my interview over Skype last Tuesday.
     
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  48. nyanko

    nyanko total trash mammal
    Veterinarian 10+ Year Member

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    I was checking out your site, and on one of your blog posts I found something that I don't really agree with as far as advice for applicants doing the match. It's here:

    7 things we would have done differently for the VIRMP match - VetMed Survival Guide

    So at the bottom of this, you state
    That doesn't matter as far as I can tell, with the match algorithm. From what I understand, you should ALWAYS rank the programs in the order in which you'd want to go to them, regardless of how you perceive that they will rank you. The way the algorithm works, this will not hurt your chances at the institutions you rank lower in any way.
     
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  49. VetMedSurvivalGuide

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    Thank you for checking the website and sharing your opinion with the community.

    Overall, the top rank picks should be the programs you want to get the most. You'll temporarily match with your #1 pick until there is another candidate that the program has ranked higher than you. This was explained by Dr. Thomas from VIN-Foundation in a post on this thread:

    In my opinion, it is worth taking a moment to think where a certain program might rank us, and if they will rank us at all. For example, one might look up the most recent ranking of vet schools in the US and use that as their rank order list without considering additional factors. How likely is that to be successful for most candidates if nothing else is considered?

    An example back from when I applied for residencies, Academic program X would not consider applicants unless they had visited. Let's say I really wanted to go there and ranked them #1 as you mentioned. What are the chances of ranking there if you didn't visit/interview? You know they are not ranking you high and likely will not even rank you at all. So should someone really "waste" their #1 slot with a program where the chances of matching are none to low?


    Now going into the example listed on the website and I'll try to elaborate on it a bit more. I should maybe expand it in the website as well to avoid confusion as it is a very specific situation:

    Let's assume we're both interns at Internship Y. We both want to pursue a surgery residency and we both love the program we're in and would like to stay on (great program + not having to move = amazing). There is only one position open. Now let's say you've done research with two of the surgeons and are really good friends with the current residents. On the other hand, even though I have a good relationship with all of them, I don't have a research project and I don't have that great of a relationship (as you do).

    So, you're obviously going to rank them #1. If I also rank them #1, who do you think is more likely to match there IF we were the only two candidates to the position?

    What I mean with this example is that I'd likely be wasting my #1 slot on a program that is not going to pick me as their first choice (could I be wrong? sure, but honestly what are the chances of that happening?). Essentially, the matching program in my case is going to start on my #2 pick, because it matches with the other person's #1 program pick, bumping me into my #2 pick.

    This might not matter at all (depending on every candidate and program rank order lists, which are always going to be different every year) and I obviously still have a chance to match elsewhere. But, in this very specific example, my decision of ranking that program #1, in my opinion, was inadequate based on the information I had at the time.

    Although candidate and program rank order lists are confidential, you can get a sense about your chances at certain programs . For example, when I visited Program X mentioned above, at the end of the day I was told that even though I was a great applicant, my chances of matching there were low because they had an internal candidate that was also great. Between the two of us, it was very clear who would get the position.

    Did I still rank them? Yes, of course - just in case by some miracle I would still rank high and the other candidate(s) had dropped out.
    Were they one of my top picks? Definitely not - I knew there was pretty much zero chances of matching there.


    Hope this helps and brings even more discussion now that we're getting closer to ranking programs! Hopefully what I wrote makes sense, but if not, let me know! There are many ways to look at this and the best way to rank programs is going to be different from candidate to candidate. One of the goals of our blog is to make candidates aware of these factors and help them make decisions by being more informed about the whole process. And it is great that discussion arises from it!

    We'll soon release two additional posts on the Match: one regarding the rank order list and the other about match day. Stay tuned!
     
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  50. hygebeorht

    hygebeorht radiology is best ology
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    I've heard the same advice @nyanko refers to, repeatedly: rank your choices based on your desires only, and don't think too hard about who you think will rank you. It's the advice I followed during my first match, for better or worse. It's the advice you always hear, and it has merit.

    That said, I agree with a lot of what @VetMedSurvivalGuide has to say - given certain conditions. If you are dead set on a single program, and the "what ifs" would kill you if you rank it lower and match higher, you should just rank your dream program first (knowing that you may not match at all). Also, you should be as certain as possible of your intel regarding programs' interest in you, and comfortable relying on that to make ranking choices, knowing that this kind of information can be unreliable.

    Especially for the most competitive specialties and internships, your #1 rank choice is the most important and powerful decision you make. If you rank popular programs lower, even at #2-5, they will likely already be filled by people who ranked them first by the time you're bumped lower. As in VMSG's example above, if you know FOR A FACT that a program doesn't rank people who don't visit (you didn't), or you got the VERY STRONG impression that a program just isn't interested in you ("don't worry, candidate, matching is a marathon, not a sprint - eventually you'll match!"), maybe save that #1 rank for a program that ISN'T giving you strong brush-off vibes.

    But yeah. Imagining the future, if you'll be forever tormented not knowing whether you could have miraculously matched at your dream program (regardless of how much they blow you off), then you should just rank them first. Just don't be surprised when you match lower, or not at all.

    Your mileage may vary, and disclaimer: I'm just an applicant and claim no special knowledge. This is just my thought process.
     
    #50 hygebeorht, Jan 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018

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