2019 Match Results

[Dr.Bruh]

Ran into some KCU fourth years at the bar last weekend. 1 matched AOA ortho and the other ACGME gen surg at a university program. The biggest piece of advise they gave was “boards matter but not as much as you think”. “Don’t be a douche bag. Being very very likable will make people look over score and a 240-250 wont make up for being annoying or a douche”. Lol

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[TheBoneDoctah]

Ran into some KCU fourth years at the bar last weekend. 1 matched AOA ortho and the other ACGME gen surg at a university program. The biggest piece of advise they gave was “boards matter but not as much as you think”. “Don’t be a douche bag. Being very very likable will make people look over score and a 240-250 wont make up for being annoying or a douche”. Lol

From the outcome of the AOA ortho match and the people that matched/didn’t, this is 110% true.

 

[Rekt]

From the outcome of the AOA ortho match and the people that matched/didn’t, this is 110% true.

This is true for any specialty though, so it's pretty silly advice.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

W

From the outcome of the AOA ortho match and the people that matched/didn’t, this is 110% true.

Would you say that many people you know that didn’t match had “personality” or social skill issues??

 

[VincentAdultman]

This is the same kind of loser mentality people use to disparage wealthy people.

This is what I’m here for. Do you have anymore takes? Let’s get these snowflakes triggered.

 

[VincentAdultman]

W

Would you say that many people you know that didn’t match had “personality” or social skill issues??

I wouldn’t say it’s uncommon. I’ve seen it firsthand.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

W

Would you say that many people you know that didn’t match had “personality” or social skill issues??

I plead the 5th.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

This is true for any specialty though, so it's pretty silly advice.

Well yeah I know that. I was just referring to the ortho match cause that’s what I was most familiar with, but yeah you’re right. It’s surprising some of the stories I’ve heard.

 

[smalls0331]

Not sure i get your point, but if its that do’s and md’s should get equal consideration for the same step score then I disagree. I wish I didn’t, but at the end of the day they go to superior schools and they should be thought of more highly than us. Everyone knows that the same app from meherry vs Harvard is going to end up in the harvard grads favor. It’s not magically unfair when the same thing happens to a DO

so with that thinking someone who receives a "superior education" should do much better than the one with the inferior education. also meaning that I had to work much harder to achieve my competitive step score than an MD with the same score.

also, how about people skills, the ability to interact with your patients, evaluations from preceptors? silly me, i forgot that step scores are the only thing that makes a quality applicant!

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

so with that thinking someone who receives a "superior education" should do much better than the one with the inferior education. also meaning that I had to work much harder to achieve my competitive step score than an MD with the same score.

also, how about people skills, the ability to interact with your patients, evaluations from preceptors? silly me, i forgot that step scores are the only thing that makes a quality applicant!

Lol because all the personable and cool people get forced to go DO? I think not. You will have to work harder because either you have worse stats, aren't as good at reflective writing, or when you interviewed you weren't as likeable. Or even more likely a combination of those problems, like most DOs.

 

[Gen3ricDO]

so with that thinking someone who receives a "superior education" should do much better than the one with the inferior education. also meaning that I had to work much harder to achieve my competitive step score than an MD with the same score.

also, how about people skills, the ability to interact with your patients, evaluations from preceptors? silly me, i forgot that step scores are the only thing that makes a quality applicant!

Lol because all the personable and cool people get forced to go DO? I think not. You will have to work harder because either you have worse stats, aren't as good at reflective writing, or when you interviewed you weren't as likeable. Or even more likely a combination of those problems, like most DOs.

What are you talking about? That poster was talking about getting into residency not medical school.

 

[calvinhobbes]

The med school I graduated from , for the first time in a long time, did not have a 100% match/placement rate this year. Even their press release this year doesn’t mention any % or match rate. (Last year and previous years was always 99-100%). Why? Because many-to-all of those DO spots in AOA match disappeared (whether they be the “safety spots” for TRI during match or post match in SOAP, or the competitive ROAD spots).

I know DOs, overall, matched “well” this year in NRMP match, and the rate went up, etc (also attribuatal to the DOs spots entering the MD match for the first time), but it is worrisome that many people didn’t match / couldn’t be placed this year, especially from well-established DO schools, including mine (because DO spots have disappeared). Lesson to all in next year’s match: apply broadly, have back-ups, and rank every interview.

 

[Gen3ricDO]

Lol because all the personable and cool people get forced to go DO? I think not. You will have to work harder because either you have worse stats, aren't as good at reflective writing, or when you interviewed you weren't as likeable. Or even more likely a combination of those problems, like most DOs.

Also I hope you find a way to find some self respect man. Sounds like you hate yourself for being a DO.

 

[sunshinefl]

No judge will hear a case of discrimination based on Degree (MD or DO); your medical credentials do not confer protected status.

My brother couldn’t get a job with Bain Capital after his MBA, they only take people from certain programs, they won’t even interview him and it’s no secret. He doesn’t have a discrimination case either, difference is, he knows it.

NYU internal medicine doesn’t interview DO’s, says right in their website. Are they just asking for a discrimination suit? You think they don’t already know this isn’t a lawsuit risk for them?

The case of a woman suing for perceived discrimination based on gender...that’s different, gender is a legally protected trait.

This was a very ill informed post.

SLC I respect you and appreciate you, but I went to NYU’s website to look, and they say they do look at DOs, or at least don’t say they don’t.

 

[smalls0331]

Lol because all the personable and cool people get forced to go DO? I think not. You will have to work harder because either you have worse stats, aren't as good at reflective writing, or when you interviewed you weren't as likeable. Or even more likely a combination of those problems, like most DOs.

Not at all what I said or meant. My only point is that saying all DO applicants are inferior to MD applicants because of “superior” education is a gross generalization. Despite what actually happens during the residency application process, we took the same test and you cannot interpret those results differently based on where someone went to school. That’s the reason standardized testing exists. There are many other factors that determine who will be a good physician outside of board scores. The most “superior” applicant should be the one who has intelligence and the ability to interact with patients and colleagues, regardless of the letters behind their name.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

Not at all what I said or meant. My only point is that saying all DO applicants are inferior to MD applicants because of “superior” education is a gross generalization. Despite what actually happens during the residency application process, we took the same test and you cannot interpret those results differently based on where someone went to school. That’s the reason standardized testing exists. There are many other factors that determine who will be a good physician outside of board scores. The most “superior” applicant should be the one who has intelligence and the ability to interact with patients and colleagues, regardless of the letters behind their name.

Yeah sorry I was quick to post slow to think. I'm just agreeing with the bias. I feel like the letters after your name are a legit way to distinguish between candidates. DO schools are easier to get into, have less money available, lower standards, and lower access to a number of important opportunities/experiences that shape good graduates. It makes sense that superior board scores don't help DOs enough to out match MDs. DOs started out behind and working hard doesn't always make up for a slow start.

 

[jw3600]

Per national rankings top 3 EM programs are:
1. Indiana University School of Medicine (Indianapolis)
2. University of Cincinnati Medical Center/College
3. University of Southern California/LAC+USC Medical Center
Top 3 residency programs for 10 specialties: Two residency programs stand out from the crowd: University of California, San Francisco places in the top 10 for 16 specialties, and Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Md., is in the top 10 across 14 specialties, according to the first-ever comprehensive national evaluation of residency programs.

Good programs but I doubt anyone would consider those "The top 3." Indiana is a fine place to train/match but it is not necessarily that competitive because you have to live in ****ing Indiana.

 

[Ho0v-man]

so with that thinking someone who receives a "superior education" should do much better than the one with the inferior education. also meaning that I had to work much harder to achieve my competitive step score than an MD with the same score.

also, how about people skills, the ability to interact with your patients, evaluations from preceptors? silly me, i forgot that step scores are the only thing that makes a quality applicant!

I’m not talking about step scores. I’m talking about third year clinical Ed. My actual point is that board scores aren’t the whole picture. Clinical Ed comes into play.

One could argue that two people with similar board scores are very similar at the beginning of third year. However, the MD student was consistently held to a higher standard than the DO during third year. It doesn’t always mean that the DO comes out worse than the MD. But just playing the odds it means come audition time the DO student on average will be behind their MD counterparts.

Don’t mean to trigger you. It’s just fact. I wish it wasn’t. I’m a DO student.

 

[deleted407021]

I’m not talking about step scores. I’m talking about third year clinical Ed. My actual point is that board scores aren’t the whole picture. Clinical Ed comes into play.

One could argue that two people with similar board scores are very similar at the beginning of third year. However, the MD student was consistently held to a higher standard than the DO during third year. It doesn’t always mean that the DO comes out worse than the MD. But just playing the odds it means come audition time the DO student on average will be behind their MD counterparts.

Don’t mean to trigger you. It’s just fact. I wish it wasn’t. I’m a DO student.

I'm curious what these supposed different standards consist of.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I'm curious what these supposed different standards consist of.

Consider the difference in education between a dedicated teaching environment with didactics at a residency program that sees a vast array of pathology in every field vs an unpaid preceptor in a small town who is taking on students for cme credit.

This is rather hyperbolic on purpose bc plenty of DO rotations are better than this and MD rotations worse. But the latter example would never fly for the entire 3rd year at an MD program and it does at some DO school sites.

 

[deleted407021]

Consider the difference in education between a dedicated teaching environment with didactics at a residency program that sees a vast array of pathology in every field vs an unpaid preceptor in a small town who is taking on students for cme credit.

This is rather hyperbolic on purpose bc plenty of DO rotations are better than this and MD rotations worse. But the latter example would never fly for the entire 3rd year at an MD program and it does at some DO school sites.

Thank christ for 4th year, honestly.

I can report that most of my classmates have had great learning experiences 3rd year and many have lots of extra didactics, nights, weekend call etc., depending on the rotation.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Thank christ for 4th year, honestly.

I can report that most of my classmates have had great learning experiences 3rd year and many have lots of extra didactics, nights, weekend call etc., depending on the rotation.

Same thing at mine too. Honestly I think the only folks at my school get a weak third year are those who seek it out. We’ve got plenty of solid sites. Unfortunately, program directors won’t know which camp we fall into when we apply.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Back on track please or we’re gonna have to lock the thread

 

[SLC]

View attachment 255715

SLC I respect you and appreciate you, but I went to NYU’s website to look, and they say they do look at DOs, or at least don’t say they don’t.

That’s new then. Wanna bet on whether or not it’s just lip service? Qualified candidate might mean 280 USMLE for all we know.

Their website used to say they didn’t consider DO’s

 

[ShowtimeKaner88]

DMU SOAP/Scramble data

 

[deleted407021]

DMU SOAP/Scramble data

7 psych applicants SOAPing 😱

 

[t5Nitro]

The DOs who match into top residency programs strictly because of their connections (e.g., hospital administrators or big-shot physicians in the family) generally won't admit it. Nobody wants to be thought of as the person whose success is solely owed to nepotism or exceptional circumstances that have nothing to do with academic merit. That's one of the major reasons why looking at DO school match lists is an exercise in futility. A residency program's decision to take a DO isn't necessarily predictive of future DO prospects at said program, since there are so many invisible non-meritocratic factors that influence the competitiveness of individual applicants.

Except that student with the uro match is on another level. Seriously competitive applicant. Work hard, you can go places. You really have to be on another level, though.

 

[SDunkey]

Anyone have ATSU?

Does ATSU not post theirs? Can't find it for any of the recent years.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Back on track please or we’re gonna have to lock the thread

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I’m not talking about step scores. I’m talking about third year clinical Ed. My actual point is that board scores aren’t the whole picture. Clinical Ed comes into play.

One could argue that two people with similar board scores are very similar at the beginning of third year. However, the MD student was consistently held to a higher standard than the DO during third year. It doesn’t always mean that the DO comes out worse than the MD. But just playing the odds it means come audition time the DO student on average will be behind their MD counterparts.

Don’t mean to trigger you. It’s just fact. I wish it wasn’t. I’m a DO student.

Yet some DO schools have considerably better 3rd and 4th year rotations than some MD schools. And yet, some DO students have rotations in the same hospitals as MD students. But yet, they still get hit by the same DO Bias from PDs.

 

[Chibucks15]

Who cares? There will be bias but as long as a majority of the former AOA programs in all specialties have transitioned over to NRMP(which they have) and continue to fill with mostly DO's, DO's will be fine and will continue to have programs they can apply to even in the very competitive specialties in addition to going for MD programs in the match. It will continue to be the same as it has been in the years past and in fact I see the bias decreasing in the coming years, as more DO's match to MD programs each year.

pre-meds who haven’t actually been through literally anything yet, telling upperclassman how to feel on things that they’re actually experiencing right now always goes over well on here. Cmon now stay in your lane kid

Mods lock this thread it’s useless

 

[Gen3ricDO]

pre-meds who haven’t actually been through literally anything yet, telling upperclassman how to feel on things that they’re actually experiencing right now always goes over well on here. Cmon now stay in your lane kid

Mods lock this thread it’s useless

Agreed, premeds and kids in preclinical years really ruined this thread.

 

[Stagg737]

This is true for any specialty though, so it's pretty silly advice.

It seems silly, but given some of the stories I hear from colleagues and attendings it is unfortunately necessary advice for all fields.

W

Would you say that many people you know that didn’t match had “personality” or social skill issues??

Yes, though I think the poor social skills part is more common as it just comes across as a bad interviewer. There are some really...unique...personalities out there though.

Lesson to all in next year’s match: apply broadly, have back-ups, and rank every interview.

This is advice that everyone should be taking already. Apply broadly is a bit subjective and back-ups can be in your own field. However, the only time you should ever not rank a program you interview at is if you would be more miserable being there for X years than never being a physician at all.

View attachment 255715

SLC I respect you and appreciate you, but I went to NYU’s website to look, and they say they do look at DOs, or at least don’t say they don’t.

The IM department there still does not consider DOs despite what their website says. Or so I've been told by a former classmate who is a resident in another field there.

Good programs but I doubt anyone would consider those "The top 3." Indiana is a fine place to train/match but it is not necessarily that competitive because you have to live in ****ing Indiana.

True, but in Indiana you can take your $250k salary and buy a mansion and live like a king. In a more desirable place like Chicago you can take that salary and buy a nice 500 sq ft apartment in an area where you're not quite so likely to get shot at.

pre-meds who haven’t actually been through literally anything yet, telling upperclassman how to feel on things that they’re actually experiencing right now always goes over well on here. Cmon now stay in your lane kid

Mods lock this thread it’s useless

Lol, residents could say the same thing about MS3's who haven't actually been through literally anything regarding the match yet telling residents how to feel on things that they've actually experienced and have been on the other side of as well. PDs could tell residents the same thing. Do you not see the problem there?

Also, as I stated earlier I'm going to make an "On-topic" thread for this once more schools put out their actual match lists. This thread is always a cluster on the DO side because DO schools suck at putting their match lists out in any kind of timely fashion.

 

[Chibucks15]

It seems silly, but given some of the stories I hear from colleagues and attendings it is unfortunately necessary advice for all fields.



Yes, though I think the poor social skills part is more common as it just comes across as a bad interviewer. There are some really...unique...personalities out there though.



This is advice that everyone should be taking already. Apply broadly is a bit subjective and back-ups can be in your own field. However, the only time you should ever not rank a program you interview at is if you would be more miserable being there for X years than never being a physician at all.



The IM department there still does not consider DOs despite what their website says. Or so I've been told by a former classmate who is a resident in another field there.



True, but in Indiana you can take your $250k salary and buy a mansion and live like a king. In a more desirable place like Chicago you can take that salary and buy a nice 500 sq ft apartment in an area where you're not quite so likely to get shot at.



Lol, residents could say the same thing about MS3's who haven't actually been through literally anything regarding the match yet telling residents how to feel on things that they've actually experienced and have been on the other side of as well. PDs could tell residents the same thing. Do you not see the problem there?

Also, as I stated earlier I'm going to make an "On-topic" thread for this once more schools put out their actual match lists. This thread is always a cluster on the DO side because DO schools suck at putting their match lists out in any kind of timely fashion.

Oh I agree with your point on me. I’m not trying to tell anyone and I thought it said pre med. I’ve always been in the match lists don’t mean jack camp

 

[Chibucks15]

Who cares? There will be bias but as long as a majority of the former AOA programs in all specialties have transitioned over to NRMP(which they have) and continue to fill with mostly DO's, DO's will be fine and will continue to have programs they can apply to even in the very competitive specialties in addition to going for MD programs in the match. It will continue to be the same as it has been in the years past and in fact I see the bias decreasing in the coming years, as more DO's match to MD programs each year.

1) I misread I apologize but damn you got all out of sorts.
2) I never said family med, I simply said you have a massive hill to climb to be a high powered surgeon or derm.
3) there are plenty of great DO matches, I know a few, but that pales in comparison to the people in here that continually complain about how unfair the system is and they can’t be in ortho with a 230 and middle class rank with no research. Kids come in and expect the miracle and don’t know how to cope when you actually just aren’t good enough.


Easy there killer

It’s gonna take 10-15 years before the bias decreases at most places and probably never will at the ivory towers.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

Back on track please or we’re gonna have to lock the thread

This thread is always a cluster on the DO side because DO schools suck at putting their match lists out in any kind of timely fashion.

Lock the thread?
This thread is going to be off topic for months while we wait for some lists to come out...
I’d rather read some random personal anecdote about PD bias or even OMM than nothing at all.

 

[Scrubs101]

DMU SOAP/Scramble data

Mad props to DMU for sharing this info, respectable move

 

[MoLarryKerlyBLine]

True, but in Indiana you can take your $250k salary and buy a mansion and live like a king. In a more desirable place like Chicago you can take that salary and buy a nice 500 sq ft apartment in an area where you're not quite so likely to get shot at.

Cool, that must be why everybody is knocking down doors in Indiana and other rural places to practice there. You speak like someone who bases their impression on big cities by watching too much cable news

 

[Stagg737]

Cool, that must be why everybody is knocking down doors in Indiana and other rural places to practice there. You speak like someone who bases their impression on big cities by watching too much cable news

No, I speak as someone who lived in a top 5 US city for the first 20 years of my life and have no desire to return to one. You sound like someone who considers any city that doesn't have a pop>1 mil to be rural. Never said anything about knocking down a door to practice in a rural area. But one can practice in Indianapolis (pop ~900,000) and literally afford 2-3x what they could living in a major metro like Chicago which is a few hours away. Keep that attitude up though, more money for people near the mid-sized cities like myself.

 

[MoLarryKerlyBLine]

No, I speak as someone who lived in a top 5 US city for the first 20 years of my life and have no desire to return to one. You sound like someone who considers any city that doesn't have a pop>1 mil to be rural. Never said anything about knocking down a door to practice in a rural area. But one can practice in Indianapolis (pop ~900,000) and literally afford 2-3x what they could living in a major metro like Chicago which is a few hours away. Keep that attitude up though, more money for people near the mid-sized cities like myself.

You know me well. Now, I'll let the phallus measuring contest and prognosticating continue in this thread.

 

[ShowtimeKaner88]

Mad props to DMU for sharing this info, respectable move

I mean it wasn’t shared outside students but I believe in transparency.

And they didn’t explicitly say we shouldn’t share the info.

 

[235009]

DMU SOAP/Scramble data

I mean it wasn’t shared outside students but I believe in transparency.

And they didn’t explicitly say we shouldn’t share the info.

Very interesting. I hope everyone takes a minute to digest the implications of this. Especially in the context of someone earlier saying that no one is "forced" into family medicine. There are certainly 7 people on that list who would beg to differ and 9 who are going to have to go through this brutal process all over again next year.

Importantly though what is the approximate denominator? (4th year class size)

EDIT: 9 not 8 will have to try again...if you add it all up there seems to be one person who didn't scramble into anything

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Very interesting. I hope everyone takes a minute to digest the implications of this. Especially in the context of someone earlier saying that no one is "forced" into family medicine. There are certainly 7 people on that list who would beg to differ and 9 who are going to have to go through this brutal process all over again next year.

Importantly though what is the approximate denominator? (4th year class size)

EDIT: 9 not 8 will have to try again...if you add it all up there seems to be one person who didn't scramble into anything

Class size is about 220. But also it’s impirtant to note many of them were going for competitive specialties (even more competitive for DO). Obvious exception is psych which has seen brutal match rates for Mds as well (DOs obviously get it worse). The vasssst majority of that class was not forced into anything. Anybody applying competitive specialties (esp as a DO) know the risk of having to soap into a less competitive spot. So To say they were force is a little disingenuous and ignore import context. Many know what they were risking.


But no doubt 19 is not a pretty number to put I to the SOAP. But for reference KCU has a larger class size (240 ish i think) and only 10 SOAP (many ortho, derm, gen surg etc).

 

[Stagg737]

You know me well. Now, I'll let the phallus measuring contest and prognosticating continue in this thread.

If you don't want people making assumptions about you then don't make assumptions about them.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

Class size is about 220. But also it’s impirtant to note many of them were going for competitive specialties (even more competitive for DO). Obvious exception is psych which has seen brutal match rates for Mds as well (DOs obviously get it worse). The vasssst majority of that class was not forced into anything. Anybody applying competitive specialties (esp as a DO) know the risk of having to soap into a less competitive spot. So To say they were force is a little disingenuous and ignore import context. Many know what they were risking.


But no doubt 19 is not a pretty number to put I to the SOAP. But for reference KCU has a larger class size (240 ish i think) and only 10 SOAP (many ortho, derm, gen surg etc).

I agree, are class size now is just under 400 for KCU. We will see what this looks like in 2 years.

 

[Rekt]

Very interesting. I hope everyone takes a minute to digest the implications of this. Especially in the context of someone earlier saying that no one is "forced" into family medicine. There are certainly 7 people on that list who would beg to differ and 9 who are going to have to go through this brutal process all over again next year.

Importantly though what is the approximate denominator? (4th year class size)

EDIT: 9 not 8 will have to try again...if you add it all up there seems to be one person who didn't scramble into anything

Even more concerning is that this is an "established" DO school that typically matches well. I feel worse for the 5 who still have no position at all, let alone all the people entering dead-end TRIs or surgical prelims.

 

[Chibucks15]

Even more concerning is that this is an "established" DO school that typically matches well. I feel worse for the 5 who still have no position at all, let alone all the people entering dead-end TRIs or surgical prelims.

eh unless you know the specific situation of each you can’t really say if it’s too concerning or not. Like if someone was going super competitive because of the comlex inflation and wasn’t smart about it, that’s more on the student than the school.

 

[MoLarryKerlyBLine]

Even more concerning is that this is an "established" DO school that typically matches well. I feel worse for the 5 who still have no position at all, let alone all the people entering dead-end TRIs or surgical prelims.

Even more proof that match lists for DOs have less to do with schools and more to do with the individuals, a point that is echoed in these threads on a near-annual basis.

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

Even more proof that match lists for DOs have less to do with schools and more to do with the individuals, a point that is echoed in these threads on a near-annual basis.

I slightly agree with this. It is more based on the individual applicant but coming from a more established school allows for better rotation sites, especially those with your desired competitive specialty. On a side note even the most competitive people slip through the crack because they don’t have a back up. We had one person in my class go for ortho , great scores, great personality.... she matched into her back up of family Med . So it’s like ya you matched but not in what you wanted .

 

[FrechToastFries]

Maybe if we all spent more time studying and less time yapping on SDN we’d get the residency spots we want