3 more Osteopathic schools opening

[Echinoidea]

Check out the AOA blog at feed://www.do-online.osteotech.org/blog/xml-rss2.php

Thoughts? Comments? It's being discussed in the pre-DO forum, but I wanted to see what my fellow matriculated DO students thought. I'm kind of at a loss right now. When Prez. Shettle came to visit, I got the impression that the huge expansion was over and that the number was going to stabilize. Guess not. The joke is on us.

I really feel apprehensive about this. I don't think it bodes well at all for the future of our profession.

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[beastmaster]

If 15 new DO schools opened up tomorrow it wouldn't affect me one way or the other. Unless I buy into the hype and bs, which I don't, why should it?

Quite fun to watch the pre-meds and current students debate though. Most don't have a clue and argue from the most bizarre viewpoints.

 

[BMW19]

There are over 100 Allopathic schools and physician shortages in many areas. How are 20 something DO schools going to spell doom for the ostoepathic profession? There are plenty of unfilled residency slots every year or there would not be a scramble. Don't listen to all the allopathic students who hate us to begin with. They of course don't like it because it means more osteopaths stealing their coveted residency slots! The more exposre we get the more we are accepted. It is a good thing. Then they will go on to say that we are getting a joke education at our offspring schools. This as they pay 30+ Grand a year and don't go to class anyway!!

BMW-

Check out the AOA blog at feed://www.do-online.osteotech.org/blog/xml-rss2.php

Thoughts? Comments? It's being discussed in the pre-DO forum, but I wanted to see what my fellow matriculated DO students thought. I'm kind of at a loss right now. When Prez. Shettle came to visit, I got the impression that the huge expansion was over and that the number was going to stabilize. Guess not. The joke is on us.

I really feel apprehensive about this. I don't think it bodes well at all for the future of our profession.

 

[DireWolf]

There are over 100 Allopathic schools and physician shortages in many areas. How are 20 something DO schools going to spell doom for the ostoepathic profession? There are plenty of unfilled residency slots every year or there would not be a scramble. Don't listen to all the allopathic students who hate us to begin with. They of course don't like it because it means more osteopaths stealing their coveted residency slots! The more exposre we get the more we are accepted. It is a good thing. Then they will go on to say that we are getting a joke education at our offspring schools. This as they pay 30+ Grand a year and don't go to class anyway!!

BMW-

Your ignorance is plain scary.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

There are plenty of unfilled residency slots every year or there would not be a scramble. Don't listen to all the allopathic students who hate us to begin with. They of course don't like it because it means more osteopaths stealing their coveted residency slots! The more exposre we get the more we are accepted. It is a good thing. Then they will go on to say that we are getting a joke education at our offspring schools. This as they pay 30+ Grand a year and don't go to class anyway!!
BMW-

I guess its a standards issue then. All this time I thought DOs wanted some say in what field they did their residency in and where they wanted to be educated. But since there are scramble spots that means there are plenty of opportunities to be educated at an institution not of your choosing in a field you had no choice but to enter since you didn't match the year before.

Also, MD medical schools are expanding their class sizes substantially over the next decade (and adding new med schools in Florida, Texas, etc). And there is no new federal funding for MD residencies-- so those are going to stay relatively constant (there has been some talk about the new MD schools affiliating with existing community programs with funding so they both benefit)

Hmm, so let's do the math. Fixed number of MD residency slots. Increasing numbers of MD grads. Schools arent going to want unmatched MDs-- so they will stop accepting IMGs, FMGs, and DOs so that the new MDs can get in. Meanwhile, DO residency slots are limited and there is a rapid (and uncontrolled) growth in DO schools.

I didnt major in math, but it seems like we are about to become like law school where only the top schools get the good jobs, as opposed to the status quo where you could go wherever and get a decent job.

 

[beastmaster]

Schools arent going to want unmatched MDs-- so they will stop accepting IMGs, FMGs, and DOs so that the new MDs can get in.

Rubbish. Schools don't have enough pull on every hospital in America to ramrod every MD to the front of the bus if the hospital desires a DO with higher board scores, better research, etc.

Meanwhile, DO residency slots are limited and there is a rapid (and uncontrolled) growth in DO schools.

Wrong on both counts

I didnt major in math

Maybe you should have

 

[allendo]

I guess its a standards issue then. All this time I thought DOs wanted some say in what field they did their residency in and where they wanted to be educated. But since there are scramble spots that means there are plenty of opportunities to be educated at an institution not of your choosing in a field you had no choice but to enter since you didn't match the year before.

Also, MD medical schools are expanding their class sizes substantially over the next decade (and adding new med schools in Florida, Texas, etc). And there is no new federal funding for MD residencies-- so those are going to stay relatively constant (there has been some talk about the new MD schools affiliating with existing community programs with funding so they both benefit)

Hmm, so let's do the math. Fixed number of MD residency slots. Increasing numbers of MD grads. Schools arent going to want unmatched MDs-- so they will stop accepting IMGs, FMGs, and DOs so that the new MDs can get in. Meanwhile, DO residency slots are limited and there is a rapid (and uncontrolled) growth in DO schools.

I didnt major in math, but it seems like we are about to become like law school where only the top schools get the good jobs, as opposed to the status quo where you could go wherever and get a decent job.

Where is the new school in Texas going to be? Who is it affiliated with?

 

[Castillonis]

I am not able to view the URL that you gave as a source. Would you
please elaborate on how to reach the source that you posted.

I have read about a potential new school "Pacific Northwest University
of Health Sciences" in Yakima, Wa in the following newspaper.
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2005/04/11/daily27.html

An excerpt from the article
"A new osteopathic medical school is planned for Yakima and will begin taking admissions for its 100 students in 2007, backers of the school said April 14. School backers say they have to raise $20 million to build the Pacific Northwest University of Health Sciences, an 80,000-square-foot facility planned for an eventual 30-acre campus. They said they've secured commitments for $3 million so far. "

 

[Echinoidea]

I am not able to view the URL that you gave as a source. Would you
please elaborate on how to reach the source that you posted.

I have read about a potential new school "Pacific Northwest University
of Health Sciences" in Yakima, Wa in the following newspaper.
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2005/04/11/daily27.html

An excerpt from the article
"A new osteopathic medical school is planned for Yakima and will begin taking admissions for its 100 students in 2007, backers of the school said April 14. School backers say they have to raise $20 million to build the Pacific Northwest University of Health Sciences, an 80,000-square-foot facility planned for an eventual 30-acre campus. They said they've secured commitments for $3 million so far. "

I had the RSS link for the AOA blog (computer nerds will know what I'm talking about)

Here is the standard link:

http://www.do-online.osteotech.org/blog/


Note: This does not include the Yakima school.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I am not able to view the URL that you gave as a source. Would you
please elaborate on how to reach the source that you posted.

I have read about a potential new school "Pacific Northwest University
of Health Sciences" in Yakima, Wa in the following newspaper.
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2005/04/11/daily27.html

An excerpt from the article
"A new osteopathic medical school is planned for Yakima and will begin taking admissions for its 100 students in 2007, backers of the school said April 14. School backers say they have to raise $20 million to build the Pacific Northwest University of Health Sciences, an 80,000-square-foot facility planned for an eventual 30-acre campus. They said they've secured commitments for $3 million so far. "

this new school in yakima does make sense because there are so few medical schools on the west coast, especially in the northwest. we have ohsu and uw, but there's no school in idaho, montana, alaska, wyoming, etc. ohsu and uw aren't enough to support the needs of the region, and my guess is that very few of their grads want to go anywhere outside of seattle and portland.

 

[LovelyRita]

There are over 100 Allopathic schools and physician shortages in many areas. How are 20 something DO schools going to spell doom for the ostoepathic profession? There are plenty of unfilled residency slots every year or there would not be a scramble. Don't listen to all the allopathic students who hate us to begin with. They of course don't like it because it means more osteopaths stealing their coveted residency slots! The more exposre we get the more we are accepted. It is a good thing. Then they will go on to say that we are getting a joke education at our offspring schools. This as they pay 30+ Grand a year and don't go to class anyway!!

BMW-

My DO school was $35K this year.

 

[drtongue_danger]

1. for primary care they don't care if you are DO or MD it is how you do on your boads . many allo programs don't even ask for USMLE scores you can use your DO boards.
2. look at the numbers, Doctor shortage, baby boomers getting older
3. FMG will lose their spot verus DO

 

[Doctor Bagel]

3. FMG will lose their spot verus DO

this is the assumption that i question. why not pick people from an established caribbean or other foreign program instead of picking someone from a totally unknown entity?

 

[Tallulah]

this is the assumption that i question. why not pick people from an established caribbean or other foreign program instead of picking someone from a totally unknown entity?

Are you saying all DO schools are "unknown entities" or just the new, unestablished ones?
Because I doubt that DOs are considered an unknown entity at most allopathic programs.
Also, didn't someone in another thread post a link to an announcement from Ama saying that they felt it was wrong to take foreign medical students away from countries that need them even more than we do and that it would be better to increase the number of US-trained physicians? From that one statement it sounds like they want to decrease the intake of FMGs.
And in the end, isn't it your board scores and your grades (to a lesser extent) that determine where you match for residencies?

 

[DireWolf]

And in the end, isn't it your board scores and your grades (to a lesser extent) that determine where you match for residencies?

False. I think the perfect example is a classmate of mine who is on this forum that scored ~250s on USMLE Step 1, probably in the top 10 of our class, assuming great LORs, and has been rejected at several big name residency programs because of the initials behind his name. This is happening everyday across all specialties.

 

[Taus]

False. I think the perfect example is a classmate of mine who is on this forum that scored ~250s on USMLE Step 1, probably in the top 10 of our class, assuming great LORs, and has been rejected at several big name residency programs because of the initials behind his name. This is happening everyday across all specialties.

accross ALL specialties is a bit of a stretch....unless there is something else wrong w/ their application (ie $hitty LOR's, etc).... maybe surgery subspecialties/plastics/derm may be brutal and show bias....but otherwise....haven't heard much of it...

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Are you saying all DO schools are "unknown entities" or just the new, unestablished ones?
Because I doubt that DOs are considered an unknown entity at most allopathic programs.

I'm taking about the new schools. SGU is a known entity. A brand new osteopathic school is not. I have trouble believing that residency directors will necessarily select grads from these brand new schools over grads from Ross and SGU.

 

[(nicedream)]

I'm taking about the new schools. SGU is a known entity. A brand new osteopathic school is not. I have trouble believing that residency directors will necessarily select grads from these brand new schools over grads from Ross and SGU.

If the students are taking the same board exams, what is the difference?
Personally, I think you could give someone a pile of books, say "read this over the next 2 years", and turn out the same grad - maybe better.

 

[dr_almondjoy_do]

Does anyone know any more information on the school opening up in NY? I am trying to look online, but there is no information coming up. I think it would be great to have schools open, meaning more work for graduates interested in academic medicine.

 

[futuredo32]

If the students are taking the same board exams, what is the difference?
Personally, I think you could give someone a pile of books, say "read this over the next 2 years", and turn out the same grad - maybe better.

Graduating from medical and being a competent physician requires more than memorizing First Aid and a few BRS books. We need excellent clinical skills, and quality rotations where we can learn. There is a lot of information that I have learned from various physicians who have lectured that is nowhere to be found in any of the board review books. You can pass the boards and obtain a residency with the board review books, but will that alone make you a good doctor?
Opening this many schools is going to cheapen the osteopathic profession. Additionally, increasing the number of osteopathic students without increasing the number of osteopathic residencies is absurd. It's only made worse by the fact that osteopathic graduates will be more dependent on allopathic residencies and we are at a disadvantage of not having a combined match.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Rubbish. Schools don't have enough pull on every hospital in America to ramrod every MD to the front of the bus if the hospital desires a DO with higher board scores, better research, etc.Wrong on both countsMaybe you should have

Actually, schools have plenty of pull. See, there is something called the ACGME which regulates MD schools. And unlike your AOA, the ACGME actually tries to make sure that MD graduates can get into MD residency programs-- ie, they won't allow MD schools to open unless they can prove that they have adequate basic science, research, clinical experiences at the site, and that their graduates will be able to match into an MD residency.

And guess who the directors of virtually all these residency programs are-- MDs who also depend on the ACGME for accreditation (just like the med schools, along with LCME). And ironically, since DOs will not allow MDs to match into DO residencies can you guess the only place MDs can go-- MD residencies. So obviously since both entities are controlled by the same group and they dont want to have MDs get squeezed out of MD spots. So who gets kicked out? IMGs, FMGs, and DOs. And there need not be an official edict saying DOs cannot get in, programs just will stop accepting them because they have "plenty of qualified applicants" from their home program or applying with an MD.

Also I think its hilarious that you lack the mental ability to realize that an unchanging supply of residencies plus an increase in medical students means someone is going to get left out. Perhaps you should go back and review your elementary school arithmetic and come back in a few hours once you've wrapped your head around this quasi-Fermat's Last Theorem problem.

 

[(nicedream)]

Additionally, increasing the number of osteopathic students without increasing the number of osteopathic residencies is absurd.

What's absurd is the notion of expanding osteopathic GME when half of osteopathic graduates go to ACGME programs leaving AOA GME with tons of unfilled spots. If the AOA were to expand GME today, would the slots fill? No...

AOA GME cannot be expanded until DO students start having a difficult time placing into ACGME programs. When that occurs, then expansion is feasible.

 

[futuredo32]

What's absurd is the notion of expanding osteopathic GME when half of osteopathic graduates go to ACGME programs leaving AOA GME with tons of unfilled spots. If the AOA were to expand GME today, would the slots fill? No...

AOA GME cannot be expanded until DO students start having a difficult time placing into ACGME programs. When that occurs, then expansion is feasible.

Despite what people say during their interview to be admitted to medical school, not everyone wants to be a family practice doctor. It seems that a lot of the spots that go unfilled are in primary care. Personally, I wouldn't want a family practice doctor who was unhappy with his/her profession, but couldn't get into the area of medicine they really wanted.
I would imagine that if the AOA offered spots in more competitive fields, they would probably be filled.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Despite what people say during their interview to be admitted to medical school, not everyone wants to be a family practice doctor. It seems that a lot of the spots that go unfilled are in primary care. Personally, I wouldn't want a family practice doctor who was unhappy with his/her profession, but couldn't get into the area of medicine they really wanted.
I would imagine that if the AOA offered spots in more competitive fields, they would probably be filled.

just what i was going to say. since both allopathic and osteopathic fp spots go unfilled each year, we probably don't need expansion in residencies in those areas. however, my guess is that there would be no problem filling more competitive osteopathic residencies. i doubt the osteopathic derm residencies, for example, have trouble filling.

 

[DireWolf]

accross ALL specialties is a bit of a stretch....unless there is something else wrong w/ their application (ie $hitty LOR's, etc).... maybe surgery subspecialties/plastics/derm may be brutal and show bias....but otherwise....haven't heard much of it...

This is anesthesia, which "used" to be one of the most DO friendly specialties.

 

[(nicedream)]

Despite what people say during their interview to be admitted to medical school, not everyone wants to be a family practice doctor. It seems that a lot of the spots that go unfilled are in primary care. Personally, I wouldn't want a family practice doctor who was unhappy with his/her profession, but couldn't get into the area of medicine they really wanted.
I would imagine that if the AOA offered spots in more competitive fields, they would probably be filled.

That's absolutely right - however, the AOA considers part of its mission to be turning out primary care physicians.

 

[jpwa1988]

In case the AOA link does not work, the schools in the process of conducting pre-accreditation site visits from the AOA are:

Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine, Branch Campus in New York (Harlem), NY

Lincoln Memorial University College of Osteopathic Medicine, Harrogate, TN

A.T. Still University of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine(KCOM), Branch Campus in Mesa, AZ


http://www.do-online.osteotech.org/blog/index.php?catid=16

 

[-Goose-]

Your ignorance is plain scary.

 

[GregsAnatomy]

I posted this in the Pre-DO forum also, but....

Barry University in North Miami, FL has plans to open an osteopathic medical school. Fortunately, the Florida Osteopathic Medical Association voted to delay the school's opening until the number of AOA residencies in the state of Florida is increased.

 

[futuredo32]

I posted this in the Pre-DO forum also, but....

Barry University in North Miami, FL has plans to open an osteopathic medical school. Fortunately, the Florida Osteopathic Medical Association voted to delay the school's opening until the number of AOA residencies in the state of Florida is increased.

 

[NonTradMed]

False. I think the perfect example is a classmate of mine who is on this forum that scored ~250s on USMLE Step 1, probably in the top 10 of our class, assuming great LORs, and has been rejected at several big name residency programs because of the initials behind his name. This is happening everyday across all specialties.

Where were the residencies he was rejected from located? I heard DO stigma is very regional. Also, did he know for sure that he was rejected based on his DO? The reason I ask is that if getting residencies is anything like interviewing for med school, numbers wouldn't be the only thing that matters. I've known plenty of friends whose numbers match or surpass the school interviewing (including yours truly) and didn't get in after the interview.

 

[Old_Mil]

If 15 new DO schools opened up tomorrow it wouldn't affect me one way or the other. Unless I buy into the hype and bs, which I don't, why should it?

...well, don't be so sure. An increasing number of graduates is going to increase the competitiveness of all residencies. Additionally, more DO schools will translate into people with lower numbers being admitted. Whether or not this will translate into the schools graduating less capable docs on the other end certainly is debatable, but it does carry with it the potential to devalue the DO degree across the board.

The AOA is acting like it's managing a franchise, not overseeing a profession.

 

[USCguy]

I guess I'm confused when it comes to residencies outside of FP. If OMM/OMT is the only difference between DO and MD (as most people say), why would one go to DO school if they wanted to specialize in some other speciality. I say this because it doesn't seem like there is much use for OMM when doing a surgery or treating someone for a skin disorder, but it seems to have plenty of uses in a FP setting; so why not just become an MD and remove dealing with "discrimanatory practices" all together. I understand some people choose to become a DO because they didn't make it into an allopathic program, but for the rest of you wanting a speciality outside of family practice, why DO school?

 

[(nicedream)]

I guess I'm confused when it comes to residencies outside of FP. If OMM/OMT is the only difference between DO and MD (as most people say), why would one go to DO school if they wanted to specialize in some other speciality. I say this because it doesn't seem like there is much use for OMM when doing a surgery or treating someone for a skin disorder, but it seems to have plenty of uses in a FP setting; so why not just become an MD and remove dealing with "discrimanatory practices" all together. I understand some people choose to become a DO because they didn't make it into an allopathic program, but for the rest of you wanting a speciality outside of family practice, why DO school?

Location, curriculum.

 

[LovelyRita]

I guess I'm confused when it comes to residencies outside of FP. If OMM/OMT is the only difference between DO and MD (as most people say), why would one go to DO school if they wanted to specialize in some other speciality. I say this because it doesn't seem like there is much use for OMM when doing a surgery or treating someone for a skin disorder, but it seems to have plenty of uses in a FP setting; so why not just become an MD and remove dealing with "discrimanatory practices" all together. I understand some people choose to become a DO because they didn't make it into an allopathic program, but for the rest of you wanting a speciality outside of family practice, why DO school?

On a historical note, Osteopathic schools were not opened in the late 1800's for the sake of supplying family practitioners to the medical field.

The original schools taught medicine and surgery, and incorporated OMT into the management of patients.

 

[DOctorJay]

I agree with the above post. Also, realize that our schools train us first and foremost to be excellent FP/PC docs. The whole point of the OMT background is that a large portion of the cases that these docs see are MUSCULOSKELETAL problems. Hands down we're trained the best in this area (search Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery for the deficiency in training for allo at the M1/M2 student level).

So it's not that we aren't supposed to go into other fields, it's that we're trained from the get go to be good generalists. I personally want to specialize most likely in PM&R or Ortho so I chose the DO route based on my background (MSPT) and the fact that these specialties focus primarily on the musculoskeletal system so I felt I'd get a better education for my interests here.

-J

 

[USCguy]

that sounds good

I think that is what I like best about the idea of becoming a DO, is that you are the best when it comes to musculoskeletal problems, yet you can also provide "regular" treatments for other problems

There is another thread on here of someone wanting to become a cosmetic plastic surgeon. I guess I'm remembering that thread the most when I ask my question in my first post

 

[rahulazcom]

If 15 new DO schools opened up tomorrow it wouldn't affect me one way or the other. Unless I buy into the hype and bs, which I don't, why should it?

Quite fun to watch the pre-meds and current students debate though. Most don't have a clue and argue from the most bizarre viewpoints.

It's not going to affect you or I, people that are currently attending a DO school, however, it will affect future DO's if these new schools are forced to considerably lowering their admission standards to fill their classes. It could afffect the reputation of the DO degree if many DO schools have the same admission standards as the Caribbean schools.

That would be unfortunate considering the massive strides DO's have achieved in gaining the respect of allopathic physicians and securing competitive residencies and positions at top programs. If they get the sense that DO schools lowering their admission standards they will become hesistant to admit DO's into these competitive programs.

Think about it. Right now the only thing separating us from caribbean and Americanized European medical schools are our admission standards. If we let anyone into our programs simply because we need to fill classes, then the DO degree will start being compared along the same lines as these caribbean schools.

 

[beastmaster]

It's not going to affect you or I, people that are currently attending a DO school, however, it will affect future DO's if these new schools are forced to considerably lowering their admission standards to fill their classes. It could afffect the reputation of the DO degree if many DO schools have the same admission standards as the Caribbean schools.

Think about it. Right now the only thing separating us from caribbean and Americanized European medical schools are our admission standards.

The problem is that threads like these are nothing but speculation in the absence of any facts or evidence. The facts are that admission standards are increasing, not decreasing (the more perceptive among us know its not hard to figure out why). You will see this in the next publication of said statistics. The growth of new schools isn't "uncontrolled." New residency spots are opening up. All of this hysteria about 300 new total DO students is silly. It will create a more competitive field of potential future residents -- why in the world would allopathic residency directors object to this? The idea of them suddenly closing the doors to DOs is so absurd that whoever suggested it really needs to have their head examined. The ramifications would not be pretty. DOs aren't there as personal favors to the AOA. They are the residents deemed most qualified for the positions. And the more of them that rise to positions of power the more likely this trend will continue -- a more competitive field via more DO schools facilitates this.

 

[vegangirl]

being a DO is like being a Republican or Democrat, you don't believe in all that a party stands for, just the majority of it. Thus, to be a DO does not mean you have to believe in OMM. What I think seperates DOs from MDs is more focus on preventitive medicine. but thats my two cents

 

[Thousandth]

The problem is that threads like these are nothing but speculation in the absence of any facts or evidence. The facts are that admission standards are increasing, not decreasing (the more perceptive among us know its not hard to figure out why). You will see this in the next publication of said statistics. The growth of new schools isn't "uncontrolled." New residency spots are opening up. All of this hysteria about 300 new total DO students is silly. It will create a more competitive field of potential future residents -- why in the world would allopathic residency directors object to this? The idea of them suddenly closing the doors to DOs is so absurd that whoever suggested it really needs to have their head examined. The ramifications would not be pretty. DOs aren't there as personal favors to the AOA. They are the residents deemed most qualified for the positions. And the more of them that rise to positions of power the more likely this trend will continue -- a more competitive field via more DO schools facilitates this.

You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

The fact of the matter is that 3-4 new DO schools will produce close to 900 new grads a year. Now since you like facts so much try these on. 1) If you forget about having a choice of specialty and location and you had every single DO stundent currently graduating go into a DO program there will be fully one THIRD of that class wihtout a residency position. Again this is just body filling a spot and not saying that you want X residency.
2) Of the 1500 DO's who applied to the ACGME match this year a THIRD of them did not match. Thats 500 people! I wonder what an additional 900 would do?
3) MD schools are increasing there student output by 10-15% over the next several years. MD's go into MD residencies. More MD's mean less ACMGE slots for everyone who is not a graduate of a US MD school.
4)DO's are ALLOWED to match to them as well. This CAN be changed. It is not a RIGHT or a LAW. We do have our own GME system.

Now even thou new DO resdiencies are opening there is now way that enough will open to absorb the influx of another 900 students. The biggest problem with DO GME is that it is for the mot part located exclusivley in the midwest/northeast. I, as well as a good number of my fellow students, do NOT want to live in the midwest one second longer than we have to. Just because we went the DO route does not mean that we should be forced into living in only a certain part of the country. The AOA needs to "redistribute"/fix the current GME system.

So new schools = more graduates. No (or not enough) new residencies BEFORE hand = more grad's with no place to go. Even forgeting the issues of quality applicants and impact on the view of the profession overall, this is a hughe issue that needs to be delt with. We can not have a profession that is Unique and then say that we reliy on MD residencies for half of our grads train ing because we cant support them. If thats the case we should all just give it up and switch the whole profession to MD.

And lastly, the motivation behind opening the new schools is dubious. Touro first open in only 1994. They just opened a brach campus in 2004 in Las Vegas and now the want to open one in New York!!! Are you kidding me?!! How can they possibly be taking care of there students?! By comparison my school, DMU, has been open for more than 100 years. It has ZERO branch campuses and has just built a 30 million dollar new facility FOR the students ( New library, tons of new study space, cafiteria, gym etc...). Arizona already HAS a DO school, which is a branch campus of CCOM! There is a new MD school opening in Arizona as well. Doesnt seem like a shortfall of schools on Az.

Do some homework before making blanket statements.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

And lastly, the motivation behind opening the new schools is dubious. Touro first open in only 1994. They just opened a brach campus in 2004 in Las Vegas and now the want to open one in New York!!! Are you kidding me?!! How can they possibly be taking care of there students?! By comparison my school, DMU, has been open for more than 100 years. It has ZERO branch campuses and has just built a 30 million dollar new facility FOR the students ( New library, tons of new study space, cafiteria, gym etc...). Arizona already HAS a DO school, which is a branch campus of CCOM! There is a new MD school opening in Arizona as well. Doesnt seem like a shortfall of schools on Az.

good point. you've got to wonder how much profitability factors into the decisions to open these new schools. it makes some do schools seem like the itt of the medical world. the touro thing really amazes me, too. why does such a new school need to open up two branches?

 

[Echinoidea]

good point. you've got to wonder how much profitability factors into the decisions to open these new schools. it makes some do schools seem like the itt of the medical world. the touro thing really amazes me, too. why does such a new school need to open up two branches?

Because they are HUGE money-makers. Why else? There is no way these schools would be opening if they were not profitable.

I think the AOA really needs to directly address this issue to the current students. I want to see direct communication from the AOA leaders to us all. I think they need to answer the pointed questions of:

1) What kind of strategic plan does the AOA have for the opening of new schools in the next 10 years?

2) What is being done to increase residencies?

3) How will the opening of new schools NOT decrease admissions criteria if and when the applicant pool happens to shrink? (As it does cyclically)

4) How does the AOA reconcile it's propaganda of "separate but equal" and "be true to your osteopathic roots" when we are increasingly reliant on allopathic medicine to train our grads?


I'm tinkering with the idea of starting a petition.....

 

[Thousandth]

I think the AOA really needs to directly address this issue to the current students. I want to see direct communication from the AOA leaders to us all. I think they need to answer the pointed questions of:

1) What kind of strategic plan does the AOA have for the opening of new schools in the next 10 years?

2) What is being done to increase residencies?

3) How will the opening of new schools NOT decrease admissions criteria if and when the applicant pool happens to shrink? (As it does cyclically)

4) How does the AOA reconcile it's propaganda of "separate but equal" and "be true to your osteopathic roots" when we are increasingly reliant on allopathic medicine to train our grads?


I'm tinkering with the idea of starting a petition.....

These are very good questions. The problem is the AOA doesnt care about what it's students think. This has been demonstrated clearly durning the whole combined match debate this past year.

As far as you Question #1 I'll tell you this, I asked just about this exact question to the past-president Dr. Thomas when he was at our school (he was the Prez then). He told me flat out that the AOA had NO control over the opening of new schools! That it was a totally seperate board that had the control and that the AOA was not allowed to interfere according to the federal government. This is the biggest load of BS I have heard, but it's the reason he gave for why the AOA was not controlling the new openings.

Question #2 was also asked during his visit and he gave us the line that it takes time and money etc. Same old line, pass the buck.

Also we tried a petition for the combined match and it was basically ignored. But it is always worth a try

 

[USCguy]

In regards to the idea of lowering admission standards to fill spots at schools...

Maybe better advertising would do a lot to help prevent this problem. I go to a large state university (25,000 students), and I had never heard of Osteopathic medicine being mentioned as a career choice in healthcare during my 1st 3 years here, until about a month ago when a DO spoke about osteopathic medicine to a group of pre-meds. When asked how many students had ever heard of osteopathic medicine, there were only 4 out of about 120 people that raised their hands. I say all this because I think if more students were taught about osteopathic medicine, you would see more competition in admissions, and hopefully better and better applicant pools and not the drop in admissions that "unchecked growth" can bring. As long as standards don't decrease and interest in OM can increase, I think opening new schools could be very beneficial for this profession.

As far as residencies are concerned, I'm really confused...seems like everyone is saying something different. It does seem ignorant to turn out more doctors without accomdating with more residency spots, if this is the case...

 

[jhug]

We do have our own GME system.

hahahahaha....ooooooohhhh....hahahahahaha....ahhhh....my side....stop, please.....wow!!!

 

[jhug]

This is directly from the AOA's Tips, Tactics, Truths book they gave us all...(page 18)
"The AOA's role is very different from that of the AMA (an actual professional organization...i added that part) For example, the AOA is establised as an educational organization, the AMA is recognized as a business trade organization. The AMA does not have the same decision-making role in accreditation of medical education. The AOA is the federally recognized accrediting authority for colleges of osteopathic medicine..."
Next paragraph states..."Unlike the AMA, the AOA also accredits hospitals and other healthcare facilities, it approves internship and residency programs..."

this poses a couple important questions...
If DO's were not allowed to do ACGME residencies...what good is DO graduate if they can't practice because they can't do a residency???
And, maybe more importantly, why is the AOA accrediting more DO schools knowing full well they can't provide them a post-graduate education...

Without us, our profession has no future...without residencies, we have no other choice...the very thing the AOA fears is the end they are eagerly driving us towards.

The "leaders" in the AOA are forcing our profession to be more and more dependent on the ACGME for our certification...
and then expect us to blindly follow them as they drive our profession directly into the ground

 

[Thousandth]

hahahahaha....ooooooohhhh....hahahahahaha....ahhhh....my side....stop, please.....wow!!!

I completly agree. Just pointing out that we do have a "system", not a good one but it's there. It's just an argument that MD's could use to disallow us from ACGME residencies.

 

[NonTradMed]

2) Of the 1500 DO's who applied to the ACGME match this year a THIRD of them did not match. Thats 500 people! I wonder what an additional 900 would do?

Well, to be fair, if a DO student matches into an AOA residency, then they are automatically taken out of the ACGME match and it is counted as an 'unmatched'---that's what accounts for the 1/3 unmatched students. 1/3 of DO students aren't walking around unmatched---yet!

I believe DO's match at the same rate as their MD counterparts, but the way the system is set up, it pulls students out of the MD match if they get into a DO match first. I think that's bogus but a combined match seems a long ways away.....

 

[Gregg]

You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

The fact of the matter is that 3-4 new DO schools will produce close to 900 new grads a year. Now since you like facts so much try these on.

I have an issue with your numbers. 900 new graduates from 3-4 schools means 225-300 students per class. Most of the schools have clases in the 150-180 range and the new schools will most likely start with smaller class sizes and grow the size over 3-4 years.
Also, I know of several new residencies in the works, as well as exsiting residencies that are looking to become dual-accredited and add slots. Programs really shouldn't come online until there are graduates to fill the. And if new residencis get off the ground without graduates to fill them they will fold. Just my opinion.