3 years out - officially a millionaire and one step closer to saying goodbye to EM

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gruemd said:
How my non-mutants doing out there? I'm 4 years out, single income household, right at about 750k net worth not including house, loans paid off besides house. At a point where now I'm going to save around 200k this year but about to take that down to 100k for the next 2 years to switch jobs to a somewhat higher COL area, to then hopefully save 230k+ yearly with better work-life balance and less work overall once partner at that job.

I always feel like I'm doing decently especially for an EM one-earner household and on track to hit my FIRE goals in late 40s/early 50s (currently later half of 30s), but then everyone here seems to be planning on being worth 30 million by their 32nd birthday.
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Hit my 10 year attending mark. Net Worth is now 4.9 mill without the paid off house (have to live somewhere). I feel extremely blessed, especially since I posted a few years ago. I still visit it from time to time to put things in perspective. Keep working hard and make hay while the sun still shines.
 
Pudortu said:
Hit my 10 year attending mark. Net Worth is now 4.9 mill without the paid off house (have to live somewhere). I feel extremely blessed, especially since I posted a few years ago. I still visit it from time to time to put things in perspective. Keep working hard and make hay while the sun still shines.
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That is remarkable.

How did you that? 2 income household... any kids? LCOL area etc...

You pretty much have f... you money now
 
xaelia said:
But, I’m somewhat at a loss as to where to spend that actually makes my quality of life appreciably better. What has everyone else found that isn’t just “fancier X” but actually makes life better?
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Trust me, once you start it will be very very easy. Money may not make you happy but money sure does make it easier, takes away stress, and therefore in a sense do make you happier.

We have housecleaners, lawn person. When my car starts to give me trouble, I just get another. I got a few lake houses. When I travel, its all upgrades. Trips have guides and personal driver. Golf, don't care about costs of equipment or rounds. I tip crazy amounts now like 100% for a massage. My boat died on the lake and needed a new engine, paid cash for a new boat.

I am posting after our flight was delayed and missed our connecting flight home. It is 12am and I am getting an Uber drive me 3 hrs home. Don't care about the costs.
 
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This is an interesting thread to look back at what we thought 3 years ago and what we think now. What are financial goals were and what they are now.

To avoid exact numbers, I would say the past 3 years
1. I went from Fire lite to FIRE. I can stop working tomorrow and my passive income would dwarf my attending days
2. Worked 6-8 shifts/month to 2-4/month only by choice.
3. My Net worth likely is 2-3x
4. My business to work income ratio was about 60:40, now it is about 90:10.
 
Pudortu said:
Hit my 10 year attending mark. Net Worth is now 4.9 mill without the paid off house (have to live somewhere). I feel extremely blessed, especially since I posted a few years ago. I still visit it from time to time to put things in perspective. Keep working hard and make hay while the sun still shines.
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You can't do anything with five, Pudortu. Five's a nightmare.
 
Splenda88 said:
That is remarkable.

How did you that? 2 income household... any kids? LCOL area etc...

You pretty much have f... you money now
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Moved to BFE straight out of residency, big sign on bonus. About 4 years ago I was at 1.75 mill NW. I was burnt out and was thinking of taking the foot off the pedal. Instead I just tapped into my immigrant mentality. Work hard for last several years. Pay went to an RVU model several years ago and my pay went up significantly. Doing close to 180hrs/month and only recently cut back. Also doing lots of admin duties and a couple of other side hustles. Single income, 2 little kids. A few years ago my FIL passed away and we inherited 500k and I also took a gamble on the market on some stuff because why not. Thought about getting into the FSED market but no good opportunities. Still want ownership of something.

I've come to the conclusion that I will likely never stop working EM unless something catastrophic happens to our field. I enjoy EM in a rose colored glasses kind of way and it is a part of my self identity.

As @GassYous said above, Five is a nightmare. I loved Succession and I have thought a lot about this recently. In another 11 years, I hope to get to $10mill. I know it's not @emergentmd money, but it's an aspiration. At a certain point, my plan is to work 8-10 shifts/month and donate all the money to charity.
 
Pudortu said:
Moved to BFE straight out of residency, big sign on bonus. About 4 years ago I was at 1.75 mill NW. I was burnt out and was thinking of taking the foot off the pedal. Instead I just tapped into my immigrant mentality. Work hard for last several years. Pay went to an RVU model several years ago and my pay went up significantly. Doing close to 180hrs/month and only recently cut back. Also doing lots of admin duties and a couple of other side hustles. Single income, 2 little kids. A few years ago my FIL passed away and we inherited 500k and I also took a gamble on the market on some stuff because why not. Thought about getting into the FSED market but no good opportunities. Still want ownership of something.

I've come to the conclusion that I will likely never stop working EM unless something catastrophic happens to our field. I enjoy EM in a rose colored glasses kind of way and it is a part of my self identity.

As @GassYous said above, Five is a nightmare. I loved Succession and I have thought a lot about this recently. In another 11 years, I hope to get to $10mill. I know it's not @emergentmd money, but it's an aspiration. At a certain point, my plan is to work 8-10 shifts/month and donate all the money to charity.
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That's the problem with work addiction. All this money, and no time to enjoy it.
 
Pudortu said:
As @GassYous said above, Five is a nightmare. I loved Succession and I have thought a lot about this recently. In another 11 years, I hope to get to $10mill. I know it's not @emergentmd money, but it's an aspiration. At a certain point, my plan is to work 8-10 shifts/month and donate all the money to charity.
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If you have 5mil, getting 8% annually will double your money to 10mil in 9 years. Granted we cannot control the markets, but even without SAVING more, you should get to 10mil in 11years with a low-cost broad ETF portfolio (ymmv, cross your fingers, etc etc).
 
WhatJobDoIPick said:
What an insane take.

If I had 5 mil today I would retire.
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$5M with a nice house mortgage, a bit of land, young kids, and wanting to live a decent lifestyle is not as comfortable from a "retire and not worry about money" standpoint as people who aren't there yet make it seem. Besides, some of that money, albeit likely less than half, is usually tied up in retirement accounts where you're likely looking at penalties for withdrawing early.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
$5M with a nice house mortgage, a bit of land, young kids, and wanting to live a decent lifestyle is not as comfortable from a "retire and not worry about money" standpoint as people who aren't there yet make it seem. Besides, some of that money, albeit likely less than half, is usually tied up in retirement accounts where you're likely looking at penalties for withdrawing early.
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You can very likely coast FIRE and work 4 to 5 shifts a month
 
JacobMcCandles said:
$5M with a nice house mortgage, a bit of land, young kids, and wanting to live a decent lifestyle is not as comfortable from a "retire and not worry about money" standpoint as people who aren't there yet make it seem. Besides, some of that money, albeit likely less than half, is usually tied up in retirement accounts where you're likely looking at penalties for withdrawing early.
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This is one of my current conundrums.

A lot of my stack is tied up in a 401k and I'm nowhere near 65...
 
I think the whole world of FIRE has led people to confound the concept of net worth and liquid assets. I know a doc who bought their house super cheap at the right time. This doc has like $2.5m tied up in their house. If they have a net worth of $5m they likley (as others pointed out) have very little in non retirement accounts. That money is difficult to get to.

I have continued to look at my NW (I have a decent amount in real estate) but really focus on my liquid assets. I have saved a lot and have a decent number in a regular brokerage account. I would guess between continued returns in this account and our spending I would have a decade of money. My life is gonna get cheaper soon. Kids are in private school and 529s are loaded. some of the kids are nearing to go off to college. That will help my finances but be pretty sad at the same time for me.

As mentioned I think a useful number to focus on for most docs is CoastFI. Thats where you just live off your earnings (save minimally) and allow your nest egg to grow. Your money will double every 7-10 if invested in the market. Of course you could be aggressive and either lose it or get outstanding returns.
 
HemorrhagicShock said:
This is one of my current conundrums.

A lot of my stack is tied up in a 401k and I'm nowhere near 65...
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I'm getting to that point too

looking at 7 figs I can't touch for a long time

I think what I'm going to do is grow it a bit more then pull out 2M and grow it from my robinhood account. Sure it's a 20% tax penalty and it's taxed on top of that, but I can definitely grow it more. I'm 100% commercial space industry and that **** is booming
 
EctopicFetus said:
I think the whole world of FIRE has led people to confound the concept of net worth and liquid assets
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...
EctopicFetus said:
As mentioned I think a useful number to focus on for most docs is CoastFI. Thats where you just live off your earnings (save minimally) and allow your nest egg to grow. Your money will double every 7-10 if invested in the market. Of course you could be aggressive and either lose it or get outstanding returns.
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I think you are exactly on point. If you looked at the pure math of my situation (include retirement accounts, and apparent home equity) I have enough to FIRE now.

But I have two kids that haven't started high school, and a significant mortgage payment (at a wonderful rate!). While I've 529'd for them, the amounts are currently only perhaps 1-2years of college. Oh and I wouldn't have an easy source of health insurance if I walked away.

My assets are probably 40% brokerage, 40% retirement accounts, 20% locked in my house. Suddenly that accessible 40% in the brokerage looks a lot shackier with all the above costs, and the timelines involved (may I continue to be blessed by health).

However, the paradigm of coastFIRE and playing with those calculators eases my anxiety about not working >1.0FTE and saving 50% of what I make. Perhaps taking the foot off the gas and working 0.75FTE in my 40s and enjoying life is... reasonable!
 
I'd echo a lot of what has been said above, especially about a "high" net worth not always meaning you can just retire right away. Depending on real estate valuations, I'm 41 with a net worth of 4.3-4.7 million, but almost all of that is tied up in tax deferred accounts and rental properties with some sort of mortgage.

When paid off, I'll be making more than what I make in medicine between rent and then later two different pensions that themselves will be about 20k/month.

My biggest issue is liquidity. For example, we had a pipe burst at one of our rentals at the same time we also found out about a leaky expensive roof. Ultimately, I put in about 100k between that house and another where a furnace/air conditioner went out 6 months ago.

As it stands right now, I can't imagine retiring. I make 500-600k in EM with a manageable schedule in a place I absolutely love and with a cush job at one of the most financially secure and physician led hospital systems in the world.
 
Tiger26 said:
I'd echo a lot of what has been said above, especially about a "high" net worth not always meaning you can just retire right away. Depending on real estate valuations, I'm 41 with a net worth of 4.3-4.7 million, but almost all of that is tied up in tax deferred accounts and rental properties with some sort of mortgage.

When paid off, I'll be making more than what I make in medicine between rent and then later two different pensions that themselves will be about 20k/month.

My biggest issue is liquidity. For example, we had a pipe burst at one of our rentals at the same time we also found out about a leaky expensive roof. Ultimately, I put in about 100k between that house and another where a furnace/air conditioner went out 6 months ago.

As it stands right now, I can't imagine retiring. I make 500-600k in EM with a manageable schedule in a place I absolutely love and with a cush job at one of the most financially secure and physician led hospital systems in the world.
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Are you kaiser?

How the hell did you get two pensions in EM (VA and Kaiser)?

And what Kaiser is paying that much?
 
This is a great discussion that often isn’t talked about among physicians. Liquidity. Many of us reading and participating in this thread don’t want to wait until 65 to start enjoying life. The likely answer for many of us (also subject to where you live and COL) is for FIRE, 4-5M is not enough. Most of us should be shooting for coastFIRE which allows way more buffer and security. I’m personally shooting for 4-5M before I consider myself in the coastFIRE category.
 
HemorrhagicShock said:
Are you kaiser?

How the hell did you get two pensions in EM (VA and Kaiser)?

And what Kaiser is paying that much?
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I moonlit there during fellowship but I'm at another large well-known institution (one of the community sites). Pension there and through Army National Guard that should be about 4-5k if I stay in.
 
Tiger26 said:
I moonlit there during fellowship but I'm at another large well-known institution (one of the community sites). Pension there and through Army National Guard that should be about 4-5k if I stay in.
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I'd say you caught a unicorn with that kind of pay at a cush or sustainable site. 500-600k is effectively impossible where I'm at in CA while still having a job that's cush/enjoyable/sustainable.
 
sloh said:
This is a great discussion that often isn’t talked about among physicians. Liquidity. Many of us reading and participating in this thread don’t want to wait until 65 to start enjoying life. The likely answer for many of us (also subject to where you live and COL) is for FIRE, 4-5M is not enough. Most of us should be shooting for coastFIRE which allows way more buffer and security. I’m personally shooting for 4-5M before I consider myself in the coastFIRE category.
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Totally agree with this sentiment. I would not call myself FIRE but rather coastFIRE at this point. I'll still save but the purse strings have been loosened significantly.
 
HemorrhagicShock said:
I'm rooting for you!

For the first few years of being an ER doc (prior to COVID) I would have told you it was worth it, and I genuinely had fun being an ER doc. I got a ton of cred from laypeople for it too.

But many years into the post-COVID landscape, this field turned into a massive hellscape. Truly a waste of an MD, and the kind of caliber of person that can make it to medical school.

I think a vast majority of ER docs are coping hard with how they justify their positions, unless they're satisfied working in some trash-tier fly-over nowheresville state or another awful suburban wasteland.
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I hear you, bro.
Collapse is real.
 
TooMuchResearch said:
Depends on age, I guess. 10 is can probably sustain current life but unclear if I could still pace inflation without falling behind.
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Still think even when people hit these numbers a few years of pt work is wise just to adjust to the schedule and avoid sorr.
 
Splenda88 said:
Guys/gals 3M plus a paid off house is more than enough to COAST FIRE... working no more than 6 days/month as an EM doc or 8 days/month as a hospitalist.
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Well with all the new spending bills that number needs to be inflation adjusted for whenever someone reaches it is all i'll say.
 
finalpsychyear said:
Well with all the new spending bills that number needs to be inflation adjusted for whenever someone reaches it is all i'll say.
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You will still be making 150-200k/yr to cover all (or most of) your expenses while your net worth is doubling every 8 yrs.
 
HemorrhagicShock said:
I'd say you caught a unicorn with that kind of pay at a cush or sustainable site. 500-600k is effectively impossible where I'm at in CA while still having a job that's cush/enjoyable/sustainable.
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Total unicorn job with the caveat being that I'm from the Midwest and enjoy living there
 
Splenda88 said:
Guys/gals 3M plus a paid off house is more than enough to COAST FIRE... working no more than 6 days/month as an EM doc or 8 days/month as a hospitalist/psychiatrist/PCP etc...
Click to expand...

This is about my goal and I'll be going to one shift a week as soon as I get there. I feel mildly bad about not creating the kind of generational wealth that others here do / will, but I'd rather spend more time with my kids than leave them with more money. EM is very agitating to me and even when I'm off I find myself not fully present sometimes, so the sooner I can get out, the better.
 
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I will echo liquidity vs illiquidity

3-5 yrs ago, my net worth was well north of 5M but it was all in business/RE equity not counting my home. I could have sold everything, put it in the market and withdraw 4% or 200K each year but this wasn't going to happen. When we needed a new car, I took out a car loan as we didn't have 80K sitting around in the bank. We were literally living on 3 months living expense in the bank. I would call ourselves cash "poor" rich but never felt poor as I could always sell a property in 2-3 months which we did a few times when tax season came.

Now, I am extremely liquid and finally feel rich.
 
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Splenda88 said:
Guys/gals 3M plus a paid off house is more than enough to COAST FIRE... working no more than 6 days/month as an EM doc or 8 days/month as a hospitalist/psychiatrist/PCP etc...
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Depends on age.. Thats what is the complicated portion of the whole discussion.
 
To synthesize a lot of what is here.

You probably need less than you think, but most of us want way more than the minimum. How much you need depends on your lifestyle. $3m is enough for some and not enough for others.. Same for $5m. I think most docs would say $10m is enough.

Inflation will matter so your “number” might be today’s number but you need to adjust for 2-3% inflation (higher if you want to be super safe).

Liquidity matters. So does what type of account that liquidity is in. Being in a regular brokerage account is not the same as having it in a 401k or a pension when it comes to the idea of retiring early.

Your target number very much depends on when you want to retire. My number at age 60 is very different than what I would need at age 40.

If you hustle for a few years you can get yourself to CoastFI. In my opinion this is the tipping point of freedom for docs. More should learn about it and figure out where that is. If you really hate work then true FI is the aim.

Once you get a critical amount of money it will grow alone if you dont screw it up. The first $1m is the hardest and each subsequent one is easier.

My personal advice.. enjoy the ride. Everyone is different but working 250+ hours a month isnt for me. I want to travel spend time with my family and enjoy the day to day. That precludes me from working like I sometimes feel I can. I work like 100 clinical hours a month but do admin work, and have outside businesses / investments.

If you are a doc and control lifestyle bloat you will be a millionaire and you can live a decent life and retire comfortably but it will take working a full “career”. Depending where you live you may not feel all that rich.
 
emergentmd said:
I will echo liquidity vs illiquidity

3-5 yrs ago, my net worth was well north of 5M but it was all in business/RE equity not counting my home. I could have sold everything, put it in the market and withdraw 4% or 200K each year but this wasn't going to happen. When we needed a new car, I took out a car loan as we didn't have 80K sitting around in the bank. We were literally living on 3 months living expense in the bank. I would call ourselves cash "poor" rich but never felt poor as I could always sell a property in 2-3 months which we did a few times when tax season came.

Now, I am extremely liquid and finally feel rich.
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This has precisely been my last few years 11 years since becoming an attending and starting two side businesses. I've been working my tail off the last few months because of a burst pipe but I feel like I'm getting over the hump and am hoping to have significantly more liquidity (i.e. freedom) over the next few years.

Even then, as a kid who always overheard my parents worrying about money and who rode to school in a used unmarked police car they'd buy at auction evey 10 years because of how cheap they were, I'm always going to have a poor mindset. I still recoil a little bit when my wife or kids even order a soda at a restaurant because of the marginal expense of things like that.
 
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Tiger26 said:
This has precisely been my last few years 11 years since becoming an attending and starting two side businesses. I've been working my tail off the last few months because of a burst pipe but I feel like I'm getting over the hump and am hoping to have significantly more liquidity (i.e. freedom) over the next few years.

Even then, as a kid who always overheard my parents worrying about money and who rode to school in an unmarked used police car they'd be at auction evey 10 years because of how cheap they were, I'm always going to have a poor mindset. I still recoil a little bit when my wife or kids even order a soda at a restaurant because of the marginal expense of things like that.
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Same exact boat here. Same poor family, 1st gen immigrant, shudder @ the restaurant coke, drove a beater in Tx heat without AC in med school, never saw the inside of a restaurant, NEVER flew for vaca growing up.

But trust me, once you get liquid, you don’t care anymore. Kids want airport food, wife getting a 15k ring at a spur of the moment at the airport, my house turning into an Amazon distribution center for deliveries, kids Uber a smoothie.

All of this would have made me frustrated in the past. But once you hit liquidity where cash in is well over your living expense, they all become decimal points. Then you will let go.
 
emergentmd said:
But trust me, once you get liquid, you don’t care anymore. Kids want airport food, wife getting a 15k ring at a spur of the moment at the airport, my house turning into an Amazon distribution center for deliveries, kids Uber a smoothie.

All of this would have made me frustrated in the past. But once you hit liquidity where cash in is well over your living expense, they all become decimal points. Then you will let go.
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This is also why generational wealth doesn't last very long. There's a fine line for the mindset from being too frugal and frivolous spending.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
This is also why generational wealth doesn't last very long. There's a fine line for the mindset from being too frugal and frivolous spending.
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I've seen SO many children of wealthy parents squander it for this exact reason. You aren't kidding that it's a fine fine fine line.

I still have that hyper frugal mindset for a vast majority of things, but then have certain categories where I go hard and have zero regard for the cost. Example is fine dining, I have no problem spending upwards of $1000 on a meal with a legit wine pairing as a SOLO diner. I love food that much.

I think this approach keeps the spend constrained to the things that truly bring me joy, and allows me to mercilessly cut down on things that bring little to no value or joy.
 
HemorrhagicShock said:
I think this approach keeps the spend constrained to the things that truly bring me joy, and allows me to mercilessly cut down on things that bring little to no value or joy.
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This is a key point. One of those things WCI mentioned way back when he started—
You can absolutely have some luxuries! You just can’t have ALL the luxuries. Well until you hit that 10mil FU money.

We were initially extremely thrifty, and have slowly loosened up. But the truth is, I just don’t care about some things (cars, first class flights, most clothes). So why spend more than minimal money on them? Pick the couple things where spending $$ actually brings you joy, and then apply thrift to other areas of your life.
 
Janders said:
This is a key point. One of those things WCI mentioned way back when he started—
You can absolutely have some luxuries! You just can’t have ALL the luxuries. Well until you hit that 10mil FU money.

We were initially extremely thrifty, and have slowly loosened up. But the truth is, I just don’t care about some things (cars, first class flights, most clothes). So why spend more than minimal money on them? Pick the couple things where spending $$ actually brings you joy, and then apply thrift to other areas of your life.
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Completely agree--i think it's ok and healthy to spend money on things you value as long as you aren't going crazy on everything else (which is how celebrities end up going bankrupt). From my childhood rolling up to school in the unmarked police car, I appreciate having something new and nice, but I can't stand it when we spend money on perishable things other than travel and great meals.
 
I only can judge what is important to me and in all honesty, I prioritize convenience/relaxation/safety/health over possessions. I would pay $2k/night on the beach in a safe area over $500/night that requires me to walk a block to the beach.

I can't judge what is important to my wife and I have worked hard to not put my 2 cents into what she find important just as I would not want her to put her 2 cents.

In all honesty, I have probably spent 10x more than her on what is important to me in our marriage which is essentially RE and business ventures which I mask as "for the family".

If I am able to save 30+% a year of my income, then everything is fair game.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
This is also why generational wealth doesn't last very long. There's a fine line for the mindset from being too frugal and frivolous spending.
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correct. its impossible to expect your offspring to value money in the way you did since the "struggle" was a large part of the journey to accumulate wealth. Heck even then people who accumulate it often over spend or lose their wealth.

You have to lead by example. You cant have the mom swinging birken bags and except there daughter going to be ok with clothes at walmart.

You have to be simple yourself and keep your wealth stealth and blend into the community so your not keeping up with the jones. Let your kids think your not poor but not rich either. Have budgets for things. Heck i have a friend who let the kids take out loans for school which he upon graduation paid them off.

I hate the uber eats stuff and purposely dont have it so i dont eat out as much and it force me to cook and be healthier. Kids need jobs and work and financial training from early on.
 
WhatJobDoIPick said:
This is about my goal and I'll be going to one shift a week as soon as I get there. I feel mildly bad about not creating the kind of generational wealth that others here do / will, but I'd rather spend more time with my kids than leave them with more money. EM is very agitating to me and even when I'm off I find myself not fully present sometimes, so the sooner I can get out, the better.
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I want to enjoy my 50s and 60s because by the time people are in their 70s, most have multiple chronic diseases that prevent them from enjoying life.
 
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So much wisdom here. I invest in health, Probably in a semi dumb way. I currently have 3 different gym memberships. Each place serves its purpose for me. Come September I’ll cut back to 2. They offer different things that I value.

I also think health is the key. I dont want to have $10-20m and not be able to walk or go on a nice vacation.

I’ll also echo it’s important to understand what makes you happy. When I read die with zero it resonated with me. I think mostly cause I was just turning the corner.

My wife and I value very different things. My wife likes stuff. She likes to decorate but in many ways we are both deal seekers. That being said I fly coach or maybe economy plus. I dont really value first class for the cost. I have flown first class to Europe 2x. Once was an insane free upgrade and the other was someone buying me first class tickets for my honeymoon with my wife. It was amazing. Then again im not paying 3-4x for flights. I still get off the plane and feel like ass, am tired (Sure the seats go flat etc but it’s not for me). Being in EM I can just power through the next day.

I do value nice hotels in a good location. I also value good food, but it pains me to pay $3-$6 for a soda. It is hard to reconcile this in a logical manner. I get that.

once I crossed the line financially i worry very little about spending. My wife spent a bunch of money on some outdoor furniture, never discussed with me. I dont care. She knows it. When we first got together and merged finances we would discuss any purchase over $20.. then $100.. then $1000.. Now it is more like informing one another. Putting in work set me on a path whereby i would have to really screw something up to slow my progress. I continue to save 30%+ of my income, spend freely beyond that and the money will just keep growing. I probably have 10-15 years left. I still truly enjoy my job and the people i work with.

I do want that sweet financial homerun and have some things in the pipeline..
 
Splenda88 said:
Guys/gals 3M plus a paid off house is more than enough to COAST FIRE... working no more than 6 days/month as an EM doc or 8 days/month as a hospitalist/psychiatrist/PCP etc...
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The issue with working 6 days per month (though I likely need 8 per month average to remain a partner in my practice) is that my overhead for malpractice, medical insurance, etc is the same and unless I stop 401k contributions my take home is probably approaching zero dollars.
 
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