Addressing PE

  • Thread starter Thread starter AnatomyGrey12
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Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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penpineappleapplepen said:
the message from the NBOME is contradictory and weak in that Gimple claimed he cannot unilaterally make the decision to cancel the COMLEX PE, but in the previous email, he unilaterally decided to announce that he would not cancel the COMLEX PE.

Gimple needs to own it, and make the decision that is what leaders do. what great leaders do is that they make positive decisions by genuinely listening to his/her colleagues. Gimple failed to do both of these at this time.

I am remaining hopeful that our student organizations and current physicians as well as Dr. Mike will try their best to cancel the COMLEX PE.
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The AOA, NBOME, COCA, and our schools do not care about us. They will not listen to us. You have to write to officials at the city, county, and state levels. People with real power. We've got nothing to lose by trying. Join us in sending emails AND physical letters to these people in California, Illinois, and Pennsylvania next week.
 
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It's just the classic response when corporations are playing victim, just a stall tactic to maintain the status-quo. I wouldn't read anything into it.

For what it's worth (I'm actually surprised) AAFP responded to me and has apparently been monitoring this carefully. The woman did imply they are at least sticking their noses in. Also linked to their policy on clinical skills exams stating that schools should focus on providing their own accurate assessments but that if they can't a standardized exam is supported as long as it is "accessible and isn't a financial or logistical burden" which is more in-line with our argument because it fails on all counts with the CS cancellation. They thanked me for providing feedback so they could advocate.

Don't know how much pull this will have, but for those going into primary that are willing to chime in, at least they appear to be listening. If nothing else it's a thorn in NBOME's side which I'm all for irritating.
 
sunshinefl said:
If they believe more tests= more public safety, let’s just add Level 1 A, Level 1.5, Level 2 EK (empathy knowledge), Level 2 OW (osteopathic wisdom), Level 4, Level 5, Level 6.
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COMLEX Level 7 "The Yoda" - 30 SP encounters over 3 days. You are blindfolded and can only treat somatic dysfunction by using the force.
 
Our Dean said yesterday in the monthly Deans Meeting that all the DO Deans got together and drafted a letter to the NBOME to have COMLEX PE permanently removed.

I’m only a 1st year so I don’t know if that statement carries any weight at all, but I thought I’d share the info.
 
Dame_Maggie said:
Our Dean said yesterday in the monthly Deans Meeting that all the DO Deans got together and drafted a letter to the NBOME to have COMLEX PE permanently removed.

I’m only a 1st year so I don’t know if that statement carries any weight at all, but I thought I’d share the info.
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This would be huge if true.
 
Dame_Maggie said:
Our Dean said yesterday in the monthly Deans Meeting that all the DO Deans got together and drafted a letter to the NBOME to have COMLEX PE permanently removed.

I’m only a 1st year so I don’t know if that statement carries any weight at all, but I thought I’d share the info.
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Yes, any proof of this would be greatly appreciated.
 
cbc86 said:
Well I believe it would be very reasonable for someone to ask for a copy of this letter...?
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I wasn’t asking to be difficult or obtuse, I just literally have zero knowledge of what is appropriate to ask for and how to go about it, because I’ve been buried in books and labs up until now. I guess I’ll email the dean and ask for a copy of the letter or if they’re going to publish it.
 
Dame_Maggie said:
I wasn’t asking to be difficult or obtuse, I just literally have zero knowledge of what is appropriate to ask for and how to go about it, because I’ve been buried in books and labs up until now. I guess I’ll email the dean and ask for a copy of the letter or if they’re going to publish it.
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Sorry I didn’t mean to come off that way, I was just pulling ideas out of my ass lol.
 
Dame_Maggie said:
I wasn’t asking to be difficult or obtuse, I just literally have zero knowledge of what is appropriate to ask for and how to go about it, because I’ve been buried in books and labs up until now. I guess I’ll email the dean and ask for a copy of the letter or if they’re going to publish it.
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Personally, I wouldn't ask the dean for that. This really goes against the typical political dean speak though so people are understandable shocked. The fact that they said this at a dean's hour is highly unusual and makes me feel like it's actually (somewhat) true.


Edit: How many times have we all heard some diplomat BS hedging and non-committal answer to any decent question toward a dean at these types of meetings? Collectively probably 1000s. The fact that this was brought up and talked about in plain English is shocking.
 
Neopolymath said:
Personally, I wouldn't ask the dean for that. This really goes against the typical political dean speak though so people are understandable shocked. The fact that they said this at a dean's hour is highly unusual and makes me feel like it's actually (somewhat) true.


Edit: How many times have we all heard some diplomat BS hedging and non-committal answer to any decent question toward a dean at these types of meetings? Collectively probably 1000s. The fact that this was brought up and talked about in plain English is shocking.
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My gestalt is a lot of the schools are pretty fed up with the NBOME and the whole situation almost as much as we are.
 
Dame_Maggie said:
Our Dean said yesterday in the monthly Deans Meeting that all the DO Deans got together and drafted a letter to the NBOME to have COMLEX PE permanently removed.

I’m only a 1st year so I don’t know if that statement carries any weight at all, but I thought I’d share the info.
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This would be HUGE. And honestly, wouldn't be super surprising in a way. Nobody at my school gives any value to the PE. We are literally taught that "this is the way you do it for the PE, and then this is the way you do it in real life". Nearly every post-SP debrief, the doc has expressed how insane it is that we have to do this in 14/9 minutes. They almost always say they couldn't do it and it's completely unrealistic. Imagine how much better our clinical training could be if we could be taught real medicine instead of being taught how to pass the PE.
 
fldoctorgirl said:
This would be HUGE. And honestly, wouldn't be super surprising in a way. Nobody at my school gives any value to the PE. We are literally taught that "this is the way you do it for the PE, and then this is the way you do it in real life". Nearly every post-SP debrief, the doc has expressed how insane it is that we have to do this in 14/9 minutes. They almost always say they couldn't do it and it's completely unrealistic. Imagine how much better our clinical training could be if we could be taught real medicine instead of being taught how to pass the PE.
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Had a group convo with my school last week. I brought up the PE. Dean essentially said “I’m cool with getting rid of it.” Karen admin DO who loves OMM goes off about how “we as DOs need to have exceptional OMM, and we need a standardized way to test that.” Cue the collective sigh from students over muted mics.
 
fldoctorgirl said:
Also, just to add. We weren't told anything about a letter being sent against the PE, but our Dean did tell us that the Board of Deans had met and made their recommendations to NBOME. So...it might actually be true.
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I’m getting more optimistic that the NBOME will cancel PE after hearing this news. The NBOME might listen to the Deans and cancel the exam. Hopefully they cancel it with next Thursday’s announcement.
 
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dabo52 said:
I’m getting more optimistic that the NBOME will cancel PE for the class of 2021 after hearing this news. The NBOME might listen to the Deans and cancel the exam. Hopefully they cancel it with next Thursday’s announcement.
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Why just for class of 2021, I doubt they can change the licensing requirements for just one class.. i mean if CO 2021 does not need to take PE to make competent doctors, why does CO 2022 or any subsequent class need to take it? If they cancel, its gone forever like CS..
 
Steve_Zissou said:
Had a group convo with my school last week. I brought up the PE. Dean essentially said “I’m cool with getting rid of it.” Karen admin DO who loves OMM goes off about how “we as DOs need to have exceptional OMM, and we need a standardized way to test that.” Cue the collective sigh from students over muted mics.
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This is the most irritating thing ever because PE is not an OMM test. It’s not designed to test for OMM. OMM is incorporated on a handful of encounters, where the examinee performs some soft tissue and myofascial, and gets full points.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
This is the most irritating thing ever because PE is not an OMM test. It’s not designed to test for OMM. OMM is incorporated on a handful of encounters, where the examinee performs some soft tissue and myofascial, and gets full points.
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And yet we all know the reason the test didn't go virtual (when that seemed like an option) is absolutely because of OMM. Hell, aside from money, I would say by far the biggest reason it exists is definitely OMM. It's a big reason we are having this conversation instead of just doing the right thing and following the NBME big brother like we do for everything else.

Honestly, every modern DO problem can be tracked back to OMM 100%.
 
Neopolymath said:
Personally, I wouldn't ask the dean for that. This really goes against the typical political dean speak though so people are understandable shocked. The fact that they said this at a dean's hour is highly unusual and makes me feel like it's actually (somewhat) true.


Edit: How many times have we all heard some diplomat BS hedging and non-committal answer to any decent question toward a dean at these types of meetings? Collectively probably 1000s. The fact that this was brought up and talked about in plain English is shocking.
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My dean outright told us he is 100% for the removal of PE. I was so proud for once
 
fldoctorgirl said:
If the deans publicly released that letter, I suspect it'd be the nail in the coffin. The NBOME would look really bad going against every DO dean. The contents of it were probably meant to be kept hush for that very reason.
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Here's my thing though, wouldn't it create more of an impact if they went public with it? That would put a lot more pressure on the NBOME if it was made public. Why keep it so hush? If they're truly advocating for its students, and the unnecessary burden it puts on the students, wouldn't it make more sense to put it out there to garner more support?
 
Steve_Zissou said:
Had a group convo with my school last week. I brought up the PE. Dean essentially said “I’m cool with getting rid of it.” Karen admin DO who loves OMM goes off about how “we as DOs need to have exceptional OMM, and we need a standardized way to test that.” Cue the collective sigh from students over muted mics.
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I mean the n is small, but I have heard of students who did no OMM or quickly did sub-occipital release on one patient and passed. The exam is not an OMM exam. Also, I'm not sure about other schools, but my school takes OMM pretty seriously so our exams and practicals are more than sufficient, if that's her stance.
 
lancefielder said:
Here's my thing though, wouldn't it create more of an impact if they went public with it? That would put a lot more pressure on the NBOME if it was made public. Why keep it so hush? If they're truly advocating for its students, and the unnecessary burden it puts on the students, wouldn't it make more sense to put it out there to garner more support?
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Possibly giving the NBOME a chance to do the right thing before they have to go that path? Just a thought.
 
lancefielder said:
Here's my thing though, wouldn't it create more of an impact if they went public with it? That would put a lot more pressure on the NBOME if it was made public. Why keep it so hush? If they're truly advocating for its students, and the unnecessary burden it puts on the students, wouldn't it make more sense to put it out there to garner more support?
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I agree with you. I just think the deans probably don't want to publicly go against the NBOME. They probably realize that if they did, the PE would basically be DNR and it might piss off the NBOME.

Edit: Alternatively, we really have no way of knowing what their official recommendation was. If the plan is never to publicly release it, the dean at this person's school could just say whatever he wants to maintain good graces with his students. There also could have been a myriad of options presented besides just cancelling the PE altogether. This is all speculation at this point.
 
fldoctorgirl said:
Also, just to add. We weren't told anything about a letter being sent against the PE, but our Dean did tell us that the Board of Deans had met and made their recommendations to NBOME. So...it might actually be true.
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My dean told us the same thing, and he said he sided with the students on this one for the elimination of PE.
 
Dame_Maggie said:
I really don’t know how I would get that, he just said it in the monthly deans hour held by our school. I don’t think they record them.
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When was the meeting you heard about this?
 
My fear is them cancelling it for 2021 only, citing reasons such as the virus and unprecedented times. This would then free up space to start testing 2022. Again this is just the nightmare scenario that keeps me awake at night
 
Osmosis_JonesDO said:
My fear is them cancelling it for 2021 only, citing reasons such as the virus and unprecedented times. This would then free up space to start testing 2022. Again this is just the nightmare scenario that keeps me awake at night
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How can they possibly rewrite the licensing requirements for one class though? It basically would mean they compromised on “public safety “ for the entire class of 2021, it destroys/weakens their entire argument..
 
Osmosis_JonesDO said:
My fear is them cancelling it for 2021 only, citing reasons such as the virus and unprecedented times. This would then free up space to start testing 2022. Again this is just the nightmare scenario that keeps me awake at night
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Their entire argument falls apart if they cancel it for just one class. I see your point, but if it's not necessary for some it's not necessary for all. But who knows.
 
Re-read NBOME's most recent email. Interestingly different tone from the previous ones, like cracks are starting to form in their stance. Still have zero faith in them doing the right thing and abolishing Level 2 PE. Get your letters and emails out and keep the pressure up.
 
Jackaleauxpe said:
Re-read NBOME's most recent email. Interestingly different tone from the previous ones, like cracks are starting to form in their stance. Still have zero faith in them doing the right thing and abolishing Level 2 PE. Get your letters and emails out and keep the pressure up.
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I'm being cautiously optimistic about this latest email. For a few reasons...

1. They're being weirdly transparent about this, with their new conquest for weekly updates.
2. "The pandemic has presented us with ... a unique opportunity to further reimagine how we ensure..."
3. "we must assure that our osteopathically distinctive licensure assessment pathways - in whatever form they take - in no way compromise..."

You're right about it having a different tone. I do believe we have a strong chance at seeing a positive change with this coming Thursday's announcement.
Though, no matter what they do at this point, the damage has already been done. For me, the NBOME will always carry a negative connotation. Even if they do finally make the right decision, it should not have been this hard to make them value and treat us with the respect we deserve.
 
CanISleepYet? said:
I'm being cautiously optimistic about this latest email. For a few reasons...

1. They're being weirdly transparent about this, with their new conquest for weekly updates.
2. "The pandemic has presented us with ... a unique opportunity to further reimagine how we ensure..."
3. "we must assure that our osteopathically distinctive licensure assessment pathways - in whatever form they take - in no way compromise..."

You're right about it having a different tone. I do believe we have a strong chance at seeing a positive change with this coming Thursday's announcement.
Though, no matter what they do at this point, the damage has already been done. For me, the NBOME will always carry a negative connotation. Even if they do finally make the right decision, it should not have been this hard to make them value and treat us with the respect we deserve.
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Yes we must not forget how this has been handled. I will never support the NBOME or the AOA in any form.
 
Considering their positions this entire pandemic have been moving at a glacial pace, assuming they make a compromise, I think cancelling for just a single class will likely be it. I haven't looked into the whole process of editing licensing requirements, but I'll bet it's easier for states to just wave a requirement for one year due to "unprecedented times" than to rewrite it entirely. Unfortunately, it'd be a pretty powerful check in favor of keeping the status-quo. Personally, I haven't seen nearly as many 3rd years as 4th years complaining because it just hasn't begun to affect them yet and they're drowning in board prep. Thousands of students would shut up because they'd be satisfied. The PE will definitely die eventually, but they could get a few more bucks for retirement before it does.
 
Alkaidius said:
Personally, I haven't seen nearly as many 3rd years as 4th years complaining because it just hasn't begun to affect them yet and they're drowning in board prep. Thousands of students would shut up because they'd be satisfied. The PE will definitely die eventually, but they could get a few more bucks for retirement before it does
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Nearly everyone in my class has been complaining. This might suck marginally more for 4th years since you all would have to go back after graduating to take this test, but none of us want to spend close to 2k to take a pointless exam. Especially since we will have to take it during interview season now since there are no dates. The arguments being blasted on social media against PE don't focus on the mess it's created for 4th years, they focus on the uselessness of the exam overall. Removing it for only c/o 2021 will not placate people enough in my opinion.
 
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