Another PhD/DVM Thread...

[Akaella]

Hello everyone,

I have been searching through and reading all of the advice on DVM vs. PhD vs. combined DVM/PhD programs here. Unfortunately, I still have a few questions.

Background: BS in chemistry, currently in an MS program under a biochemistry professor. Near & dear to my heart: organic chemistry, biochemistry, medicinal/pharmaceutical/biological chemistry, genetics (esp. cancer-related). My dream job for a very long time was to be an R&D scientist researching drug mechanisms and coming up with novel treatments/therapies/drugs. Life changes happened, and the last few years I've been focusing on getting into veterinary school, convinced that's what I wanted. On the cusp of my interviews, though, more life changes have happened, and now I'm... conflicted, to say the least.

I have essentially decided from all I've read here that I don't want to pursue a DVM/PhD combined degree- from what I understand, except in special circumstances, they aren't really compatible degrees. I feel as though I should just decide if I want to be a clinician (DVM) or a researcher (PhD). I've seen a lot of negative about the PI/researcher side of academia and professorships- does anyone have experience with government/industry R&D at all? I was always told academia wasn't the only option for PhDs, and now I'm curious as to how true that is, exactly.

My main concern is simply that I don't know what I want to do more. I love animals, I've worked at a small animal clinic for a while now and really like it, but I can't say being a receptionist/technician speaks to my soul (obviously, hence why I wanted to be a vet). However, I am concerned that being a clinician would be too routine and not have enough problem solving/new discoveries for me compared to a research career. I think I'd be excellent as an ER vet, or interested in large or mixed animal practice, but... I just don't know anymore. I've started looking around at PhD programs and the research they're doing at these universities is just so exciting! And debt... debt-to-income ratio for vets is a big concern of mine. At least they pay you to get a PhD (although not much)!

So, I'll lay out strengths/weaknesses that might help direct advice: I have ADHD; class all day sounds awful. I prefer to dictate my own schedule. I don't mind working with people (I like animals more, though), I get along with everyone fairly well, but I still ultimately would like to be the one making the decisions. I thrive on variety and will need problem solving to keep my career interesting for sure. I love discovery and being in a lab, but I also love being with animals and helping them. I don't mind writing (I realize this is a big thing with grant proposals). I work well under pressure but have trouble self-pacing over long periods of time (something I'll have to deal with no matter what I decide). I have always been motivated by the idea of discovering something impactful, and I feel like it would be difficult to have that sort of impact as a clinician. I LOVE science & research, and I'm concerned that being a vet will not be as science-oriented a career as I might want. I will say that I definitely do not want to work in animal research- I had an internship in the biomechanics lab at Mayo where I worked with animal research and it is not for me. My research interests are more hard science-based as opposed to animal-based.

Any advice/direction or next steps suggestions would be more than welcome. I'm at a pretty confusing crossroads right now and just trying to figure out what I want. I'm currently in advanced organic chemistry as part of my MS, and I'm SUPER excited about it. I don't know if I would get that excited about vet school curriculum, but it's hard to find information on what exactly is taught in vet school, so I don't really know (and don't want to have to go to vet school only to find out that no, I don't like it as much- lol).

Thank you!!!

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[mmmdreamerz]

Reading this, you seem far more excited about research than about vet med, which I think says a lot.

 

[lilylilac]

I'll preface this response by saying that I have a PhD in pharmacology and have never wanted to work in academia, only industry. After I obtain my DVM, I still plan on working in industry.

First of all, I agree with mmmdreamerz that you definitely sound more excited about research than vet med. If I were you and I was that passionate about a topic, I would work in that field of interest. You don't sound passionate about vet med. Also, your debt:income will be vastly different between pursuing a PhD vs DVM.

Because I wanted to go into industry (particularly pharmaceuticals), here's some information. It's still quite a bit about networking when finding a job, but I can't really think of any of my friends who don't have a job after earning their PhD, and most of them were not looking for academic positions. One of the main differences is that the bottom line for the company is money. If your team assigned to a drug isn't pushing forward with the plan of making the company money, that team will be disbanded and you'll be assigned to another team. Also, the employees with PhDs tend to move up toward more management positions and much less benchwork, so if your main interest is the benchwork, keep that in mind.

Also, you said that your interests are more hard science than animal based. These two ideas are not mutually exclusive. Hard science uses animal models every single day to conduct research and test hypotheses. One of your interests is genetics, and you can bet that transgenic mice will be used for those experiments. If what you mean is that you're not comfortable using animals in your research, then I would definitely consider sticking to PhD programs with either in vitro work or bench top chemistry. Keep in mind that in drug discovery though, anything that is made in the lab for potential human use must be tested in animals.

As a first year in vet school, we have not had any in depth chemistry lectures. About the closest thing might be pharmacology, and it's definitely not as in depth as classes I took in my PhD program.

If you're still unsure between the two programs, I would try to get experience in ER or large animal, since you said those areas might interest you. If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me.

 

[supershorty]

You do sound a lot more excited about research than vet med. Maybe shadow in some of the areas that you mentioned.

In terms of doing something with impact, I'm not sure how many people in the research world make discoveries that are truly life-changing, particularly if you're looking at medical research, without using animal models at all. And as a clinician, even if you aren't making an impact on a global scale, the way you treat your patients and clients does make a difference. In tough situations, clients will remember how you helped (or hindered!) - you can make a lasting impression in individual people's lives.

But your excitement level says a lot about what direction you really want to go. I'll second @lilylilac - you're welcome to PM me with questions too. I'm a first year DVM/PhD student.

 

[IZZY222]

I'm going to chime in. I'm a second year DVM/PhD student. I'm working my DVM first then entering my PhD.

I LOVE research. Like the fact that I was accepted to both a MS/PhD and a DVM/PhD position when I was applying to vet school.

I've always wanted to be a vet. I spent 3 years working at a small animal hospital in high school. College, I wanted to "diversify" myself as a candidate and I joined a dairy research program. I fell in love. I loved working with the cows. I loved finding practical answers to on farm questions. But my favorite part was my calves. I spent a year running a project. In that year, all of my babies got coronavirus and 4 died. I worked with the school vet on implementing biosecurity protocols and tracking the spread. My interest in vet med was resurrected.

Now, I'm a DVM/PhD student focusing on epidemiology. I still love research. I love crunching numbers and tracking disease spread and how to impliment control. But, I wanted to know why they got sick. I want to know how to treat them and I want to know how to control the disease. That's why I chose DVM/PhD.

Feel free to PM me.

 

[Musicandhorses]

Hi, I can add my two cents.

I know this is my first post on the forum, but I have been a veterinarian for 12 years (Ohio state grad, go bucks!) and a PhD (epidemiology, neurology, lab animal, and molecular genomics) now for 3-4 years at a large human hospital research facility. I was where you were when I was applying and I thought for sure I would do the combined program but then ended up doing two different degrees separately, which I am happy I did in the end for several personal and professional reasons. I currently am doing full time small animal GP which I actually really like, working on part time consulting with big data, and hopefully next year applying to lab animal and/or pathology residencies. It was a long road for me to get here, and I hope to work on drug development in the future as well as, yes, continuing with part time small animal GP relief and ER shifts weekly. Yes, I am slightly crazy. Anyways...

Really, it all depends on your passion. I very much highly echo the other posters who say that they recommend that you shadow both worlds, because honestly both worlds are totally separate in a lot of ways. (However, there are ways to combine them which I can discuss later). The only way you are going to know what you are truly passionate about is by getting that experience. I also recommend to find good mentors in both who will be honest about everything in their fields (ie. job prospects, stress, current issues, etc). Both fields are getting tougher to find jobs in, IMHO. However, there are jobs out there for DVM/PhD, straight PhDs, and DVMs. Now keep in mind, that if you do a straight PhD especially in academia, they want you to have at least some post doc experience, and in industry, you MUST have contacts/networks to get your foot in the door. And don't get me started on the never ending post doc syndrome which I said I would never do. I would much rather pursue a residency and do my post doc research then. You do seem very passionate about research, and honestly, I am too, when you start talking about my research, I get all happy (Haha!), but I still LOVE my clinical time too!

Doing either degree is no walk in the park! Both have their different set of stresses! The PhD (at least mine) I was very much on my own to make sure everything got done on time. My DVM: well, let's say that the classes are not always the easiest with the sheer amount of material to be learned. But with vet school, you do not have total control over what you are taking, schedule, etc as your PhD. However, if you do not like any clinical medicine, a DVM will be hard to get through because half of your third year and all of your fourth year is clinics all the time (at least at OSU). If you hate that, you might have trouble getting through your clinical studies. As far as large vs small animal: I worked in both believe it or not (I never said my journey was straight!). I personally did not like equine/large animal for personal reasons, and realized I loved the small animal medicine. I found this out by experience and getting my feet wet. I realized I wanted to ride horses, not work on them. So again, it really comes down to exploration of yourself.

That said, there are ways to do both if you like both (like me). You can enter a research heavy residency (such as pathology or lab animal) and combine your interests there. You can also work for industry as a DVM without having said residencies, but at the end of the day, when I have explored that avenue, they really wanted me to have that residency done (although I could have moved to get those jobs, but then I would make less than a small animal GP would in those roles, at least for the first few years) and you pretty much do need a PhD for them to consider you. There are also ways to do a board certification in lab animal with just experience (which I could have done, but for personal reasons, did not want to move to said experiences until 2018). So...there are many options available to you. You just have to explore.

Now, are there as many jobs for DVMs in research that they were saying in vet school when I was there, heck no! But there are opportunities there. However, it sounds like you may also be very happy with just a straight PhD. But also, don't let people tell you not to do a DVM just because you like research and want to do a PhD too. People have tried to tell me that but I just ignore them. There are opportunities with all three combos.

Feel free to PM me if you want. I am happy to discuss my experiences and/or answer any questions!