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Discussion in 'India and South Asia' started by U4iA, Aug 12, 2004.
I am TOTALLY kidding....
23 year old Fair and handsome doctor settled in the 'states' seeks a beautiful Brahmin girl from a good family who should be:
1. a doctor
2. Fair and Beautiful
3. able to cook/clean
4. Fair and Beautiful
5. Love domesticity
6. Fair and Beautiful
8 Fair and Beautiful
Should be willing to have children right away.
Please send 'biodata' and 'photos' to listed address
Dont these personal's piss you off? I cant believe so many people still do this $hi!
I'm visiting from the loungey.but yeah.theyre annoying.stupid personals.but i guess they really work for some people?
how can a person be knit? i don't get it.
unless we're talking about being able to knit, which by the way, all jokes aside, is pretty hard. i keep dropping knots.
Oh yeah, I meant should be able to knit.
Yes you will be surprised at the number of people who still do this. The funny thing is that people who are unable to find spouses here in the USA have more ridiculous demands than the people back home.
By the way, for some of the people here who were born and raised in India, what is this fascination with "fair and lovely"? I see it in almost every personal ad out there... and the people I know who post these things usually look like toads themselves... please explain.
old indian mentality
white = good, washed with milk = fair
rich people used to take baths in milk or something, maybe it was royalty, and so there's some subconscious association with fair = rich = good person.
at least, that's my analysis.
And american like tanned looks when they themselves are doodh se dhule........
That is so ironic because some of the most beautiful indian women I have seen out there have been dark.... I guess the conservative desi's dont know what they are missing.
I cant wait till the day where getting the all might "green card" aint an issue... because then the brahmin toad looking guys who demand "fair and lovely brides" can be ensured life long virginity
Maybe it's just the systemic racism built into most cultures. I think it's pretty ironic that Indians hold the Brits in such low regard and yet desire a washed down version of their skin.
Naw, I'm not a militant hippie, but one does wonder what goes through the heads of these people.
And might I add... knitting is a pretty cool skill! God knows I can't do it (not that I've tried).
hey i thought of another reason for the whole why fair is good thing.
maybe it's not as blatant as i originally thought -- maybe it's all a desire to join/form an alliance with a family that can afford to/has the 'sense' to keep their daughters inside away from the sun. maybe that means money, maintainence of virture, and avoidance of skin cancer (there, we brought medicine back into this thing yay!).
(maybe someone should go to india and ask what's up)
The reason that most cultures ranging from Southern Europe, North Africa, West/South Asia (Middle East to India) and Asia/East Asia prefer lighter skin tones is due to economics.
It is a perception that the darker you are the more time you spend outdoors as a laborer etc thus you are not as well off as a lighter person.
Sound silly? Yes, but that is the warped mentality held by many however there is a teeny tiny grain of truth to it.
In Greece the women working the vineyards and olive plantations will wrap themselves from head to foot in clothing to hide an exposed area of skin from the sun.This is done in an effort to avoid any darkening of the skin from excessive UV and IR exposure.
Similar things are seen in other parts of the world.
In most cultures fairness is a presumed 'good' quality to have, even in Western lore........'mirror mirror on the wall......who is the fairest of them all?...'
Anyways skin color is only skin deep as testified to by the various gene studies done recently, it appears all humanity shares 99.7% or so of their genome.
However such things will never dissuade a majority of people as we after all are visual beings. If we were blind everything and everyone would be black!
I will speak for myself, being considered 'fair' by Indian standards, I am constantly asked if I am a Greek, an Italian or a Spaniard and it gets rather annoying.
I feel 'safer' in the summers when I can get a little color on me.
I remember one time I was actually in a Religious Studies course that focused on Hinduism. I was rather 'annoying' to the professor and in that class I was sitting with a group of Indians (by ethnicity) of various shades of color.
They thought I was some white guy or a mix of some sort.
I was like man people really do base your identity on color (even gradations of color, I am not white/pink but white/olive toned).
So yeah it seems that being of a certain ethnic origin people tend to focus in on skin tone more keenly than others.
I also have to mention that I heard a Chinese friend's mother say that the daughter should avoid the sun or she will be mistaken for a Vietnamese.
I was shocked.
I focussed on some Chinese girls at uni for a bit and was amazed at how a significant number of them would shield their faces from sunlight with binders or anything in hand.
I mean let's face it, an individual will always have his or her preferences so is it right to really knock someone for that? It is like saying to someone, you are a bad person for choosing a red car over a blue one. However I do feel it is NOT right to be judging someone based on their color as a group or an individual. Heck I have seen very attractive black women around, and very nasty white ones. Heck I have seen very nasty black women and very attractive white women. I have also met very attractive women that were down-right ugly in terms of their personality and color didnt matter.
Here here. I think the mechanism is relatively well understood. The issue is whether it's right to discriminate against another for his/her skin colour. When someone makes a sweeping statement like "must be fair skinned", there is an implied prejudice. Having a lighter skin colour, I'll admit that I rarely give colour a second thought. I can't say the same for someone with a darker complexion who is rejected because of it.
Since our personal preferences are very much affected by our upbringings, I'd say we're all a little prejudiced.
wait, before we say prejudice.. does anybody actually follow those checklists? I mean, do people want people to match all of them, or some, or what? 'cause I was just thinking, i can't think of any dad who doesn't think his daughter is fair and lovely and wonderful . I would think people get all sorts of responses, and once they actually meet the people personality and such would play a bigger part then casual readers of the personnel section might think? maybe? hopefully?
First of all I want to point out that there are a number of fathers out there who don't think their daughters are fair, lovely and wonderful.
Secondly, let's pray the husband and wife-to-be are given enough time to get to know one another. But I assume that unless a family is in a state of desperation, it will preclude the undesirable choices based on "biodata". Only the filtered pool is ultimately allowed to demonstrate its personality.
I haven't really seen any pairing of people based entirely on 'biodata' so I cannot provide an informed opinion on the matter. I have however seen people in a newer version of an 'arranged' marriage.
Families of similar economic/educational backgrounds prefer to have their children married to one anothers and of course other commonalities are considered such as 'caste/jati'.
I have to disagree with the above admonishment of -let's pray the people have enough time to get to know one another-I feel that this doesnt happen as much as it used to, ie., the kids these days have ample time to meet with one another and it is just called an 'arranged' marriage for the sake of posterity whereas in reality it is an 'introduced' marriage.
I think that this mode of marrying fits in well with the ecclectic views of todays 'Indian' youth, be they from America, UK or India. In fact it is known that NRI communities are in fact more 'traditional' than their 'native' counterparts. In some circles the 'native' Indians deem themselves morally and culturally superior to NRIs to the point where they think they are more attuned to fashion, etiquette and technology. Now of course I am referring to a certain socio-economic faction of 'native' Indians (the burgeoning middle class and upper class).
The classified ad matrimonials are more atypical of 'native' Indians than they are of NRIs, since most posts are from NRIs. Funny how this paradigm shift occurred in less than a generation (~30 yrs).
Question to you all: Would any of you consider a 'traditional' arranged marriage, an 'introduced' marriage, a 'love' marriage and would you also consider marrying out of your ethnicity, cultural or religious group?
The comment that 'must be fairskinned' is a form of prejudice is not entirely true. It may just be a preference. As I said previously it can be like a choice of car colors.
When does it become prejudice?
No one can say for sure, unless there is an overt act or sentiment that causes or has the intent to cause any form of injury, be it physical, emotional or psychological.
Otherwise it is just predilection or discrimination, in that the person is exercising his or her free will to make a choice/discernment based on his or her desires, wants and/or needs.
There is a danger in using terms like 'prejudice' and 'discrimination' due to the colloquial nature the terms have assumed in that the 'knee-jerk' response is one of racism/hatred, etc. I hope people recognize the form in which I am utilizing the terms.
First of all..."biodata" is the funniest term to me.... I crack up every time I hear my parents say it!! "oh his biodata is looking very good!!"
Anyway, I am an american born indian and find this hilarious. I agree with the previous post that arranged marriages are more introduced nowadays. most of my friends and cousins who have done this had months and months after they met whoever to decide if they wanted to get married. and they meet so many different people in this journey to marriage to see which one they like best. and on top of that, most have long engagements. it's much different than in our parents time. my parent knew each other for 2 weeks before they got married!!! I could NEVER do that...
Back to the question posed above from JattMed.... I am a married woman...and it was a "love" marriage. I have nothing against an arranged/introduced marriage. I was completely mentally prepared for that until I met my husband. My parents were just happy he was indian!! I don't have anything against interracial/intercultural marriage as well. If you're happy...go for it. There is nothing better in this world than to be in love! I personally would not have done it because even though I am very american...I treasure my indianness too much. I think it's just too different sometimes and I wouldn't know how to raise my kids. But, I've known many people who are doing it and they make it work. So, whatever floats your boat I guess.
It's not so cool when the boat sinks because your community has ostracized you on account of your interracial marriage.
(Not speaking to my own personal experience here!)
I wouldn't ever have labelled the knee-jerk reaction as a prejudiced mechanism. Funny though.
I agree that it's difficult to determine when racism is at work unless we have some quantifiably measurable variable. At the same time, we mustn't euphemize the 'discrimination' by calling it mere personal preference. Perhaps it is apt to call it 'bias'.
Or like I said, predilection.....................
They're not the same thing.
This whole argument is academic anyways. No hard feelings. I pwomise.
Nothing in the universe is an absolute, it is all relative.
Predilection implies 'bias'.
No hard feelings
In a very narrow sense.
But let's drop it.
I am an Indian who was born and raised outside India and migrated to the US at the age of 14. As a person who has come to the conclusion that I am never going to find an Indian girl, I am all for interracial marriages.
Although a lot of arranged marriages these days are more of a screened dating leading to marriage scenarios, I have to shamefully point out that there are a plethora of families who still do it the "old fashioned way"... skin color, cast, horoscope based with little or no "courtship" period.
Personally, I really don't know why we are still so stuck to the cast $hi!, As far as I am concerned, this is a dark thread that is woven really deeply into the fabric of our society... even the educated and so called "liberal" indians who have had the opportunity to travel the world, follow it. Bottom line... as opposed to the western/ Anglo-Saxon cultures, ours is fundamentally a hierarchal and 'face value' based one. I really dont know when this will change, all I can control is the environment around me... none of my relatives are allowed to talk about jaat/dharm negatively in my presence!
btw, maybe we should really dedicate a thread to discuss some of the issues of dating/ relationships on this forum... what do you guys think?
Not a bad idea as long as it doesn't degenerate into a dating service. Go for it - start the thread; let's see who writes!
One of the main reasons organized religion exists is to instill social order. The "caste" system was made to bring order to people who were all of one religion. In other parts of the world, there were many branches of the same religion or many religions all together that were in constant conflict. the people of these conflicting religions viewed themselves as superior to the other religions that surrounded them. Sometimes to the point that if you did not agree with their superiority in the form of conversion you would not be provided with something necessary for survival (food or water) or worse, you were killed, or your people waged war against. In such times, the caste system does not seem to be a poor alternative.
Now I can't speak for the people that you know, but no individual I have met takes the caste system literally. Everyone I have spoken to understands that it was a tool necessary back in the day but now has been replaced with more effective powertools (one could argue that the corruption in indian government isn't a step forward, but at least it's organized and not through religion). The differences in caste for many are lifestyle differences (vegetarian vs. non-veg, etc). Today, the parents I know who look to assist their children in marriage are much more worried if you will marry out of religion (in which case, according to their argument you would have very few similarities when raising children, etc) than marrying out of caste. The caste systems is not as deeply woven as you may think. It just takes time for people to stop using their old tools and get used to new ones...
Yes, the origins of the cast system lie in good intentions by the Aryans to organize their society, but cast designation was done after the thread ceremony and 'gurukul' education process was over (depending upon your performance) and hence cast could change from one generation to the next.... this sytem obviously did not last for long as the Brahmins wanted to reserve their cast strictly for their own children.
True, that the cast system is not followed to the tee in terms of shudras not casting shadows upon their fellow brahmin citizens and yes, the politicians have used the cast system to implement the mandal comission etc, to increase their vote bank.... but again, I ask you to look carefuly into the arranged marriage scenarios of today, cast is still a pretty important issue. It may be disguised in the last name or the particular town you live in, but the distinction still exists and for a lot of people who are cognizant of it, want to try their best in filtering their associations, particularly when marriage is involved.... and that does upset me.
Like i said it would be an open forum to discuss the issues surrounding this topic. If posters feel like they want to take it further its their business... but first I want to see what some of the female posters have to say. Since this thread has already reached its second page, a lot of people may not be reading it... nonetheless, if anyone has opinons, please post.
Start the thread.
Hi, as a non-Indian, I am just curious about the Indian men (that were brought up in India at least during childhood-teenage years) that find themselves a girl they like (whether she be Indian or non -Indian), and it is not an arranged situation.
Do the men usually still think of this situation in terms of marriage, meaning if they like a girl within the first few meetings, do they continue "being friends" or "dating" her with the intention of marrying her? Do they make this clear to the girl within the first few "dates"? Why I am asking this is that in Western societies, men seem to be more commitment phobic, and for that reason, do not bring up the topic of marriage with a girl. Most women, on the other hand, are thinking of commitment and marriage and how this potential guy would be as a husband. Eventually, if the man does not mention anything about the future in terms of marriage, the woman will usually bring up this topic. So, for Indian men who have been brought up with the tradition of arranged marriages, how do you look upon the dating situation?
Also, if a man (of any race-nationality) meets a woman through means of telephone or internet and they continue talking for weeks-months and then eventually meet in person, etc., would you consider this a form of arranged marriage since they have not physically seen each other and formed a relationship before that time? What is your opinion of this?
looking forward to hearing your opinions!!thanks!
I'll discuss the first part when I have time. As for the telephone / internet contact leading to marriage being considered arranged, I think the answer hinges on the narrowness of your definition of an arranged marriage.
I have a friend whose family knew of a girl in India. They were introduced over the Net and continued to chat / talk on the phone for months. She came to visit him here and they dated, albeit briefly. Now they're married. Personally, I'd consider this a very very very loose form of arranged marriage.
Bear in mind that an arranged marriage is a label used to describe anything from a simple introduction (with dating to follow) to a binding contract, so the label is quite fluid.
I have heard that in Islam people get married over the phone (with a mullah or someone else of religious authority present in the same room as the groom)
I have also heard that in Islam you can get a divorce by just merely saying the word 'Tilaaq' 3 times aloud so others (witnesses) hear you--saying this in reference to the one you want to divorce yourself from.
I guess you are perfectly right... It is a very very very very loose form of arranged marriage .. nowadays arranged marriage is just "licensed" dating!!!!
This thread would be perfect for Harps-the "my parents will arrange my marriage" thing..yup.
Since I am an American born Indian, I guess I'm going to go ahead and throw in some of my own experiences.
Growing up with all white people, thats all I ever dated (I am 23). I recently broke up with a girl that I had been dating for 2.5 years. Though she was very open to my culture/my parents/etc, I think deep down it wouldnt have worked. We all know how Indian weddings are, and though nothing against her, she was a staunch Baptist. Culturally, I just think its going to be easier on me/her if we have the same background. When I get married, I want to be able to enjoy the ceremonial process (be it with an Indian girl or a white girl). Surprisingly, after this relationship, I find myself thinking that marrying an Indian girl might be easier in the long run after all. From the time I was little, my family (excluding my parents) have told me to marry within my race. I didn't think I would ever marry an Indian but it's weird how that sounds better and better with each relationship I have.
My brother just came back from India, hes 19. He told me that he was CONSTANTLY getting bombed with proposals/requests for his biodata etc. Thank God, I didnt go because I absolutely cannot handle that. No one is trying to "arrange" a marriage for me, per se, but if one day I said, "Please find my an Indian girl." My relatives would love nothing more....
I've always been interested in the perspective of an Indian person growing up in a community of non-Indians... I'm the opposite of you since I grew up around Indians my whole life and I have only dated Indian girls.
Where I don't differ from you is that I have grown to appreciate the potential marriage to an Indian girl more and more as I grow older. I have always recognized the cultural differences between Indians and mainstream society and those things mean a lot to me at the end of the day. I'm very proud of our traditions, our community, and what we have collectively accomplished here in the United States. I would love to be able to further this new "indo-american" culture that we've created with a like-minded woman.
I think the reason that people like us feel that its preferable to marry someone Indian is because we realize that marriage is sometimes not ONLY based on love the way it ideally should be. There are practicality issues such as religion, extended family, culture, and social background which play major roles in the whole process. All these things are undeniably strong predictors of future happiness in a marriage. Unfortunately it?s not as simple as it should be...
Anyway, I don't mean to revert back to the caste system topic, but I thought I would give another viewpoint.
I also agree that the caste system is archaic and socially backward for the society we live in today. However, I cannot help but notice how much the system has become a part of me since I have been raised with it. No, I do not want to necessarily marry another Brahmin etc... but I have noticed that I do look for some qualities in Indian girls that traditionally fit the model of the matrimonial ads someone was making fun of earlier. I cannot help but admit I like Indo girls who are fair and thin for example. At the same time, I do like "non-traditional" qualities such as independence and intelligence as well. I don't even really care if she can cook or not...
What I'm trying to say is that sometimes it?s hard for me to shake the caste system in my subconscious thought. Some of those qualities which have always been ingrained in my head as being good have transferred over into my personality as an adult. I think a lot of us fall victim to that.... we all have biases based on our upbringing. I think the key is to make a substantial effort to shatter those biases over the next couple of generations.
I am going to go ahead and have to agree with many of the comments you have made regarding the caste system. While I dont intentionally refer to this system, it is subconsciously ingrained in who I am. When it comes to an Indian girl, my family is obviously going to want to know the history of the family...obviously, this is a circuitous way of determining a familiy's ranking on the caste system scale.
I'd also have to agree that I prefer the fair girls. Funny thing about Indian girls seems to be happening these days. All of my guy friends (white guys) cannot stop drooling at the sight of a good looking Indian girl. Its rather interesting actually. I am also starting to see an increasingly higher number of good looking Indian girls with white guys...not to sure how I feel about that although I guess I cant complain since I have never dated an Indian girl
you're missing out
so am I
not many Indian chicks here. the ones that are here hardly think highly of guys from india like me.
just like everyone else it's a guy's life. iam thankful to my fraternity for all the drinking and silly behavior. keeps me relaxed
ps i don't even look at them anymore i am a selfmade snob (pretty frustrating )
ohhh so you're one of those snobby indian guys
I have sort of turned into one.
What can you expect when people around you i.e. "Indian Americans" aren't too nice and you still have made progress socially and academically
Seems like Indian chicks born here don't want Indian dudes whether they are from India or here.
I guess they think all of us are dorks or something? I dont know.
That really sucks. Those Indian girls are giving us girls a bad name lol I guess living in Los Angeles where there are so many indians the US Born and India Born girls are everywhere so the culture is pretty mixed up. I have seen my share of snobby indian american girls but I know some really nice down to earth indian americans too.... same goes for Indian born girls also.
I guess the snobby girls can stay snobby .... its their loss
I think there are two categories of indian american girls ... one who are so sick of the indian drama that they don't want to have indian friends or boyfriends. But then there are others who are very much in the "indian scene" and they will go out with only Indian guys.
I belong to the latter category maybe coz i wasnt born here..Even if I was born here I 'd have prayed that my preferences remained the same.
although a slight modification, I don't go out with only indian GUYS , but I ll go out with ONLY ONE indian GUY Without an S!!!!!!!
Maybe people think thats a loser attitude, but ahhh thats how I am, I'd prefer giving all my love to the only person rather than letting it get dissipated.
I really WANT the opportunity to date an Indian girl. As it is, I havent had that chance