Attending Life

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ItBurnsInMyHand

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  1. Resident [Any Field]
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What’s your life like as an attending? How frequently do you take call? Is there any light at the end of the tunnel?

I’ve been having a bad week with a ridiculous amount of weekend calls on top of fellowship application stress, and difficulty scheduling my 1 week vaca. Maybe burnout is where this is coming from, but I’m just curious.
 
Attending life can be hard work. While you can bail out and go for mommy track, you often lose 1) a good deal of pay and 2) the ability to dictate the kind of work you do.

This is why they say you should do what you love. In the end, the pay and job security is unrivaled, and you are able to do something that is meaningful to patients and society.

Overall, I think that we should count our blessings as anesthesiologists. We live in a world in which you gotta work to live unless you are born into wealth or create the next facebook..... but if you went into this for the money and cannot find meaning in your work, you are gonna be miserable. The good news is that it's a choice you get to make for yourself, although most people choose to be miserable whatever their path in life is.
 
I had feelings of burnout just as much as the next guy in residency and frequently had second thoughts about my career decisions. Now that I’m an attending I couldn’t be happier. Some days I think back about how incredibly lucky I was to decide over a decade ago to go down this long road of medical training because I really am that happy with where I’m at now. My job doesn’t involve an exorbitant amount of call and we are within 5 miles of some major referral centers so we don’t get the big ugly cases and that’s exactly what I wanted. It gets better for sure.
 
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I enjoyed residency, but didn't really get beaten up during it (pretty benign workload/call schedule with lots of collegiality). That said, attending life is 3.141459 x 10^6 times better than being a resident. I currently average about 41 hours a week, take in-house call ~q20, work one weekend a month, get 13 weeks of vacation and pull down more bitcoin than I know what to do with. I skied in Banff, Jackson, Big Sky, the Cottonwood Canyons, Revelstoke and Kicking Horse this season. Last year I went to Hawaii twice and visited 16 national parks. I bucket-listed my way across the Grand Canyon! I mountain-biked all over WA, OR, CA, and UT! This summer I'm headed to Alaska for some ice climbing and glacier hiking, and am planning a trip to Portillo Chile to ski the Andes! I took more trips last year than I did in all of med school and residency combined (I can also say this about each of the past five years).

When I read that back, it sounds kinda braggy, but I'll leave it just in case it inspires you to get through residency. Cheers!
 
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B-Bone said:
I enjoyed residency, but didn't really get beaten up during it (pretty benign workload/call schedule with lots of collegiality). That said, attending life is 3.141459 x 10^6 times better than being a resident. I currently average about 41 hours a week, take in-house call ~q20, work one weekend a month, get 13 weeks of vacation and pull down more bitcoin than I know what to do with. I skied in Banff, Jackson, Big Sky, the Cottonwood Canyons, Revelstoke and Kicking Horse this season. Last year I went to Hawaii twice and visited 16 national parks. I bucket-listed my way across the Grand Canyon! I mountain-biked all over WA, OR, CA, and UT! This summer I'm headed to Alaska for some ice climbing and glacier hiking, and am planning a trip to Portillo Chile to ski the Andes! I took more trips last year than I did in all of med school and residency combined (I can also say this about each of the past five years).

When I read that back, it sounds kinda braggy, but I'll leave it just in case it inspires you to get through residency. Cheers!
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Let us know when you're hiring. 🙂
 
B-Bone said:
I enjoyed residency, but didn't really get beaten up during it (pretty benign workload/call schedule with lots of collegiality). That said, attending life is 3.141459 x 10^6 times better than being a resident. I currently average about 41 hours a week, take in-house call ~q20, work one weekend a month, get 13 weeks of vacation and pull down more bitcoin than I know what to do with. I skied in Banff, Jackson, Big Sky, the Cottonwood Canyons, Revelstoke and Kicking Horse this season. Last year I went to Hawaii twice and visited 16 national parks. I bucket-listed my way across the Grand Canyon! I mountain-biked all over WA, OR, CA, and UT! This summer I'm headed to Alaska for some ice climbing and glacier hiking, and am planning a trip to Portillo Chile to ski the Andes! I took more trips last year than I did in all of med school and residency combined (I can also say this about each of the past five years).

When I read that back, it sounds kinda braggy, but I'll leave it just in case it inspires you to get through residency. Cheers!
Click to expand...

After you hire @FFP keep a spot for me in the next 3 years. K, thanks, byyyyeee
 
B-Bone said:
I enjoyed residency, but didn't really get beaten up during it (pretty benign workload/call schedule with lots of collegiality). That said, attending life is 3.141459 x 10^6 times better than being a resident. I currently average about 41 hours a week, take in-house call ~q20, work one weekend a month, get 13 weeks of vacation and pull down more bitcoin than I know what to do with. I skied in Banff, Jackson, Big Sky, the Cottonwood Canyons, Revelstoke and Kicking Horse this season. Last year I went to Hawaii twice and visited 16 national parks. I bucket-listed my way across the Grand Canyon! I mountain-biked all over WA, OR, CA, and UT! This summer I'm headed to Alaska for some ice climbing and glacier hiking, and am planning a trip to Portillo Chile to ski the Andes! I took more trips last year than I did in all of med school and residency combined (I can also say this about each of the past five years).

When I read that back, it sounds kinda braggy, but I'll leave it just in case it inspires you to get through residency. Cheers!
Click to expand...

asl
 
B-Bone said:
I enjoyed residency, but didn't really get beaten up during it (pretty benign workload/call schedule with lots of collegiality). That said, attending life is 3.141459 x 10^6 times better than being a resident. I currently average about 41 hours a week, take in-house call ~q20, work one weekend a month, get 13 weeks of vacation and pull down more bitcoin than I know what to do with. I skied in Banff, Jackson, Big Sky, the Cottonwood Canyons, Revelstoke and Kicking Horse this season. Last year I went to Hawaii twice and visited 16 national parks. I bucket-listed my way across the Grand Canyon! I mountain-biked all over WA, OR, CA, and UT! This summer I'm headed to Alaska for some ice climbing and glacier hiking, and am planning a trip to Portillo Chile to ski the Andes! I took more trips last year than I did in all of med school and residency combined (I can also say this about each of the past five years).

When I read that back, it sounds kinda braggy, but I'll leave it just in case it inspires you to get through residency. Cheers!
Click to expand...

This is awesome, but sounds more like an advertisement for not getting married/having kids than for going into anesthesiology, specifically.

Note: I am assuming with that travel schedule you don’t have a family. My apologies if I’m mistaken.
 
B-Bone said:
Everybody's always REAL INTERESTED until they find out how the temp doesn't get above zero for a month in January...
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Only a month below 0? Where is this tropical wonderland you speak of?
We got a foot of snow last night. its minus 15 celcius this weekend

That is an absolutely obscene job you got there mate! Well done
13 weeks vacation is crazy. 1 in 20 call is equally nuts!

You guys dont want to know what guys make in the UK
 
B-Bone said:
I enjoyed residency, but didn't really get beaten up during it (pretty benign workload/call schedule with lots of collegiality). That said, attending life is 3.141459 x 10^6 times better than being a resident. I currently average about 41 hours a week, take in-house call ~q20, work one weekend a month, get 13 weeks of vacation and pull down more bitcoin than I know what to do with. I skied in Banff, Jackson, Big Sky, the Cottonwood Canyons, Revelstoke and Kicking Horse this season. Last year I went to Hawaii twice and visited 16 national parks. I bucket-listed my way across the Grand Canyon! I mountain-biked all over WA, OR, CA, and UT! This summer I'm headed to Alaska for some ice climbing and glacier hiking, and am planning a trip to Portillo Chile to ski the Andes! I took more trips last year than I did in all of med school and residency combined (I can also say this about each of the past five years).

When I read that back, it sounds kinda braggy, but I'll leave it just in case it inspires you to get through residency. Cheers!
Click to expand...

more bitcoins than you know what to do with?! wow.
Hire me too please haha
 
I love life now. Also single, no kids in a fun city.

Average pay but great benefits, like my coworkers and hours aren’t bad. 45-55ish depending on call.
Half home/in house call. Post call always off. Every 4th weekend.

About to take a position with more call, but...
- again post call always off
- non call days are very light
- 17 weeks vacation

It gets better.
 
I enjoy work, ~55 hours a week. Collegial environment.

Make it home for dinner with family when I am not of call most of the time. Call is 1/9. Backup call 1/9 is very low call in. Call 1 weekend/month. 1/3 of days home by 4, 1/3 done by 5, others variable, but unusual to be past 7.


Have 12-17 weeks off per partner. I only travel a few weeks due to kids school, unlike the single crowd.

Make plenty of money.
 
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17 weeks and full time is my dream job if the location is there. Never had that much and envious of those that have it that way.

Work hard/play hard.
Perfect location for what I’m after.

I take 10 weeks, high 400s, 1 in 6/7 weekends, post 1,2,3, OB off, post 4 and trauma only work in the mornings.

Call can be extremely brutal and I see just about everything... so good case mix.

Cutting back to 1/2 time in a couple of years.

Can’t wait for that.
Will have about 30wks per year. :banana:
 
Attending life is great work 84 days a year, Rural ER 24 hour shifts. Tamarindo, Nevis, Vietnam, Turkey for international travel in past 12 months. I’m a DINK.
 
B-Bone said:
I enjoyed residency, but didn't really get beaten up during it (pretty benign workload/call schedule with lots of collegiality). That said, attending life is 3.141459 x 10^6 times better than being a resident. I currently average about 41 hours a week, take in-house call ~q20, work one weekend a month, get 13 weeks of vacation and pull down more bitcoin than I know what to do with. I skied in Banff, Jackson, Big Sky, the Cottonwood Canyons, Revelstoke and Kicking Horse this season. Last year I went to Hawaii twice and visited 16 national parks. I bucket-listed my way across the Grand Canyon! I mountain-biked all over WA, OR, CA, and UT! This summer I'm headed to Alaska for some ice climbing and glacier hiking, and am planning a trip to Portillo Chile to ski the Andes! I took more trips last year than I did in all of med school and residency combined (I can also say this about each of the past five years).

When I read that back, it sounds kinda braggy, but I'll leave it just in case it inspires you to get through residency. Cheers!
Click to expand...


I call BS. Unicorn practice. He’s probably recruiting for an AMC
 
I couldn't be happier with the career and location that I have now
-All MD/DO, no CRNAs!!!!!
-Probably around 50-55 hours per week on average
-My partners take between 2-10 weeks Vaca per year. I take about 6 weeks
-About 1 weekend call every 5 weeks, 3-4 weekday calls per month
-Get along well with my surgeons
-Awesome location without any income taxes
-Probably about 80% of cases are Cardiac with good case mix
-No OB or Trauma
-Pay fantastic, 90th percentile by 2015 MGMA data (most recent I can find)
 
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sethco said:
I couldn't be happier with the career and location that I have now
-All MD/DO, no CRNAs!!!!!
-Probably around 50-55 hours per week on average
-My partners take between 2-10 weeks Vaca per year. I take about 6 weeks
-About 1 weekend call every 5 weeks, 3-4 weekday calls per month
-Get along well with my surgeons
-Awesome location without any income taxes
-Probably about 80% of cases are Cardiac with good case mix
-No OB or Trauma
-Pay fantastic, 90th percentile by 2015 MGMA data (most recent I can find)
Click to expand...

No income taxes? This can't be in the US. Pretty sure every where has federal tax
 
Maybe means no state income tax but forgot to put state?
 
I work like a dog. I wish I could go back to the good old days of residency. Residency was the best. I was rich and I had no responsibility. I even forget my wife and kids names on a regular basis these days because I haven’t seen them in weeks. Hell, sometimes I get lost on the way home because I forget which house is mine.


But the martini’s definitely help.
 
Life is good, money's good. I think this is a good specialty overall but my biggest regret is not going into tech. I have several relatives who work as engineers at major tech companies here in the silicon valley. You have no idea no good they got it. Compared with the medicine route, it's no contest. No med school, no residency, no huge debt, no calls, no weekends, no late nights, no early mornings, plenty of vacay, perks galore. At 25, 26 years old they're making just as much or more than most MD specialists.
 
Lurch said:
I call BS. Unicorn practice. He’s probably recruiting for an AMC
Click to expand...

nah, I only get 12 weeks vacation and take a little bit more call but I bet I make even more money and take similar crazy vacations. Great jobs aren't easy to find and aren't everywhere, but they are out there. But even if you can't get a great job, there are plenty of good jobs that offer reasonable hours, good pay, and enough vacation to not go crazy.
 
Ezekiel2517 said:
Life is good, money's good. I think this is a good specialty overall but my biggest regret is not going into tech. I have several relatives who work as engineers at major tech companies here in the silicon valley. You have no idea no good they got it. Compared with the medicine route, it's no contest. No med school, no residency, no huge debt, no calls, no weekends, no late nights, no early mornings, plenty of vacay, perks galore. At 25, 26 years old they're making just as much or more than most MD specialists.
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They making >$300-400 at 25-26??? (I am close to that in debt at the same age!)
 
Ezekiel2517 said:
Life is good, money's good. I think this is a good specialty overall but my biggest regret is not going into tech. I have several relatives who work as engineers at major tech companies here in the silicon valley. You have no idea no good they got it. Compared with the medicine route, it's no contest. No med school, no residency, no huge debt, no calls, no weekends, no late nights, no early mornings, plenty of vacay, perks galore. At 25, 26 years old they're making just as much or more than most MD specialists.
Click to expand...

spacegun said:
They making >$300-400 at 25-26??? (I am close to that in debt at the same age!)
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It's pretty rare to make more than most MD specialists as 25-26 yr old software developer. None of my friends I know around that age range working in large tech companies make more than 300k/year. If you add in benefits they are probably close. But that's pretty SWEET for their <50 hr work weeks. And their work is pretty chill too.

pgg said:
iBankers are too, coulda done that. 🙂
Click to expand...

Pretty sure iBankers aren't working 40 hrs a week =)
 
Ezekiel2517 said:
Life is good, money's good. I think this is a good specialty overall but my biggest regret is not going into tech. I have several relatives who work as engineers at major tech companies here in the silicon valley. You have no idea no good they got it. Compared with the medicine route, it's no contest. No med school, no residency, no huge debt, no calls, no weekends, no late nights, no early mornings, plenty of vacay, perks galore. At 25, 26 years old they're making just as much or more than most MD specialists.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong but I always assumed these techies have to actually have some innate talent and be creative gifted types of people. You don't need any of that in medicine, just have to be willing to work hard. I never had much of a creative edge and don't think I would have made it very far in the tech world. Medicine on the other hand, when I was 19 years old I made a decision to commit to the pathway, put my head down and hauled ass for 10 years. Anyone with the right mindset can make it in medicine without any god given talents.
 
San Marzano said:
I could be wrong but I always assumed these techies have to actually have some innate talent and be creative gifted types of people. You don't need any of that in medicine, just have to be willing to work hard. I never had much of a creative edge and don't think I would have made it very far in the tech world. Medicine on the other hand, when I was 19 years old I made a decision to commit to the pathway, put my head down and hauled ass for 10 years. Anyone with the right mindset can make it in medicine without any god given talents.
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Not really. These people aren't the ones starting successful startups. You are given a task and you code it.. Honestly I dont think it takes much creativity at all, at least not any more than other high paying jobs like law/medicine
The high pay is really just a supply vs demand issue and having a lot of money available. Friend of mine who works at one of the biggest tech companies says her Computer science program in college tripled in size since she graduated 4 yrs ago. For some reason i feel like CS is just not the most popular major among americans even though it pays a ton (kind of like how a lot of us hate math). Also the cost of operation can be awfully low for many tech companies so they have a lot of money to pay employees. Look at google, their main revenue comes from advertisement. How much money does it take to maintain google.com??? Compared to lets say walmart, which operates on thin margins. Also why many retail stores are going bankrupt
 
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anbuitachi said:
It's pretty rare to make more than most MD specialists as 25-26 yr old software developer. None of my friends I know around that age range working in large tech companies make more than 300k/year. If you add in benefits they are probably close. But that's pretty SWEET for their <50 hr work weeks. And their work is pretty chill too.



Pretty sure iBankers aren't working 40 hrs a week =)
Click to expand...
It's not rare at all, no idea what you're talking about. I have 2 cousins who are software engineers working in tech in the SV and they both make 350K. This is not including benefits, paid vacation time, sick days, and all the amazing perks. So total compensation is much more. They are 26/27 years old. This is pretty standard salary for engineers at their level. They can get to that level within 5 years of work. Engineers in tech here start out at around 200K and it increases rapidly as you rise from level 1, 2, 3, etc. When you do the basic math accounting for the debt we take on and all the years we spend in training before we're making decent bank, an engineer in tech will be around 3 million dollars ahead of you or more by the time you're making attending level bank
 
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San Marzano said:
I could be wrong but I always assumed these techies have to actually have some innate talent and be creative gifted types of people. You don't need any of that in medicine, just have to be willing to work hard. I never had much of a creative edge and don't think I would have made it very far in the tech world. Medicine on the other hand, when I was 19 years old I made a decision to commit to the pathway, put my head down and hauled ass for 10 years. Anyone with the right mindset can make it in medicine without any god given talents.
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No they're not ridiculously talented or creative at all lol. They're simply pretty smart dudes like yourself who went into engineering at great programs here (Stanford, Berkeley) like many many other people do and maybe went on to complete a graduate program or something. There are so many huge tech companies here and they need a lot of people to work for them.
 
anbuitachi said:
Pretty sure iBankers aren't working 40 hrs a week =)
Click to expand...

The SDN TOS require i banking to be mentioned in any thread that supposes med students coulda fallen backwards into a job soooo much more lucrative than medicine. I'm just doing my duty. 🙂
 
Ezekiel2517 said:
It's not rare at all, no idea what you're talking about. I have 2 cousins who are software engineers working in tech in the SV and they both make 350K. This is not including benefits, paid vacation time, sick days, and all the amazing perks. So total compensation is much more. They are 26/27 years old. This is pretty standard salary for engineers at their level. They can get to that level within 5 years of work. Engineers in tech here start out at around 200K and it increases rapidly as you rise from level 1, 2, 3, etc. When you do the basic math accounting for the debt we take on and all the years we spend in training before we're making decent bank, an engineer in tech will be around 3 million dollars ahead of you or more by the time you're making attending level bank
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Really? Odd. Do they work in the same company? I know a bunch of CS majors who graduated from top CS programs and none make 300s...
 
I have a friend who is the same age as me and majored in computer science (Stanford), he works in the Bay Area for a tech company most people have probably heard of, but he does not make $300K either. Don't get me wrong he had an easier path than medicine and it's more fulfilling for him because he's always loved computers, but he makes maybe $150K-$175 (still good). Maybe he is doing it wrong (possible, his social skills aren't great), lol. Don't know what to believe now.
 
spacegun said:
I have a friend who is the same age as me and majored in computer science (Stanford), he works in the Bay Area for a tech company most people have probably heard of, but he does not make $300K either. Don't get me wrong he had an easier path than medicine and it's more fulfilling for him because he's always loved computers, but he makes maybe $150K-$175 (still good). Maybe he is doing it wrong (possible, his social skills aren't great), lol. Don't know what to believe now.
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Yea usually the salary range for 25 yr olds I know of.. more if including benefits. Though I guess the startups kids probably make more... Snapchat?
 
I don't know what it's like in tech but I thought you had to move up to management if you want to make really good money? But I know people like my friend would not like being a manager, they want to stay involved in the technical things.

And as you get older doesn't it get easier to be replaced as a software engineer? But in medicine we are valued for being older and more experienced usually.
 
pgg said:
The SDN TOS require i banking to be mentioned in any thread that supposes med students coulda fallen backwards into a job soooo much more lucrative than medicine.
Click to expand...

Careful, now @Newtwo is gonna think you're serious.
 
anbuitachi said:
Really? Odd. Do they work in the same company? I know a bunch of CS majors who graduated from top CS programs and none make 300s...
Click to expand...

Pretty sure that guy is just suffering from massive 'grass is greener' mentality. 25/26 year old techies do not routinely make 300k in tech. The people making that much are killing it with very desirable skill-sets, they aren't just some monkey given a task that requires straight-forward programming. The fact that they think programming requires no creativity speaks a bit to their naivete in this. As someone else mentioned in this thread, the money in medicine is great because it's more or less guaranteed as long as you put in the work. To make what a physician specialist makes in most other careers requires not only a lot of hard work, but also exceptional talent relative to your peers.
 
Engineers work in google, facebook, amazon, snapchat are not as smart as you think. I know a lot of them. Granted, most of them have some sort of graduate degrees. These degrees do not have to come from top programs. For an average engineer, there are tricks to get into these top companies, such as study hard for leetcode (similar to us using First Aid for Steps)

For google, entry CS MS get ~150k base, 15-25% bonus, 250-300 RSU for 4 years (about 300K）， some sign-on bonus, etc. So a total of 250K + bennies for a beginner. When you get more experienced, more $$$.

No calls, no weekends, WFH, no crna bailout, no **** hits the fan.... Good life.

I wish I had studied CS. I was good at it (A for elective programming classes)
 
I'm sure software engineering life is great. I'd rather save someone's life for work though. I could not stand being in an office all day, every day, forever. Occasional stress and other problems come with that privilege though. 1 or 2 patients being grateful is all it takes to make it worth it.
 
My friends in engineering, and particularly banking, would kill for the job security having an MD carries. They are always looking behind their back as they can be very readily replaced, and with minimal to no notice.
 
I'm happy as an attending. Good pay, good hours, good call, and good time off.

I think it's important to appreciate what you have. Most of us have a rather blessed life if you look at it objectively.

As for tech/iBanking.... I would simply say that if you are smart, educated, and willing to work your as.s off, then the world has a good place for you. But, it's important to also be realistic about "barriers" to such gigs. I agree with others that medicine is a path which pretty much guarantees a good life. Maybe not the glory days of old, but if you live comfortably (not lavishly), you can have a great life in our profession, IMO.
 
Lurch said:
I call BS. Unicorn practice. He’s probably recruiting for an AMC
Click to expand...
I have PM d him a few years ago about the job. It’s legit. But it is in the tundra and 100%supervision from what I recall and a steep buy in. Except as partner he makes probably in the 99th percentile so buy in is worth it.
I can’t supervise like that. Nor handle the weather.
 
Ezekiel2517 said:
It's not rare at all, no idea what you're talking about. I have 2 cousins who are software engineers working in tech in the SV and they both make 350K. This is not including benefits, paid vacation time, sick days, and all the amazing perks. So total compensation is much more. They are 26/27 years old. This is pretty standard salary for engineers at their level. They can get to that level within 5 years of work. Engineers in tech here start out at around 200K and it increases rapidly as you rise from level 1, 2, 3, etc. When you do the basic math accounting for the debt we take on and all the years we spend in training before we're making decent bank, an engineer in tech will be around 3 million dollars ahead of you or more by the time you're making attending level bank
Click to expand...
Except they are living in one of the most expensive real estate markets in the world so are probably spending a huge amount of money on housing and all the other overpriced CA s hit and taxes.
 
chocomorsel said:
Except they are living in one of the most expensive real estate markets in the world so are probably spending a huge amount of money on housing and all the other overpriced CA s hit and taxes.
Click to expand...

Yea but the difference is in every other high paying industry, pay goes up in more expensive areas. Only in medicine does pay go down in those areas.
 
Is the liability in case one makes a mistake worth it? I mean the possibility of killing or maiming someone if you screw up is real in our world. And we are human after all. Then comes not only the possibility of losing your job but the very high possibility lawsuit. And all the drama that comes even after that is settled. Licensing and credentialing drama. Increased premiums. Not getting hired.
All that **** sucks. Computer geeks don’t have to worry about that.
POW16 said:
I'm sure software engineering life is great. I'd rather save someone's life for work though. I could not stand being in an office all day, every day, forever. Occasional stress and other problems come with that privilege though. 1 or 2 patients being grateful is all it takes to make it worth it.
Click to expand...
t
 
The pay is good, I love what I do, but I’m exploring (working on) an exit plan. I’m working on some projects outside of medicine and I’m giving myself 5-7 years before I can possibly “retire” from medicine. I’m in the NE and I do work a lot, but some of the other peripheral stuff, politics and BS to deal with is something I won’t entertain in a decade or so. Anesthesia is a wonderful specialty and I would choose it again (Not sure about choosing medicine in general).

Not to discourage anyone, but this is my story and based on a number of things (I’ve never been sued, lol) and I feel good about my decision and plans [emoji3]
 
That is true. But the advantage for us is that San Fran has such a small count of hospitals compared to the rest of the US, that you don’t have to move there to work.
Whereas if I wanted to work for Google, Yahoo, Facebook, Snapchat, what have you, most likely I would be forced to move to Solicon Valley and pay a mil for a 600SF condo.
anbuitachi said:
Yea but the difference is in every other high paying industry, pay goes up in more expensive areas. Only in medicine does pay go down in those areas.
Click to expand...
 
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