Below 3.0 gpa Support Group/Thread

[SoulReaver69]

Mind PMing me the school you completed your SMP at?
Wishing your the best for the current cycle, please keep us updated!

I am not sure how to PM you. It was one of the top big ones. Hopefully it works out well !

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[MeltedWings]

Buckle up bucaroos, and get ready for this car wreck of a history...


Similar to ak4life up above, I graduated from a service academy ~10 years ago. BS in Biology with a gpa of 2.32, sgpa of 2.23 which I attribute to gross misprioritization of academics behind military training and intercollegiate athletics. But hey, I wanted to be a pilot and I had a pulse, so off I went to become a pilot. Started a Masters with Embry-Riddle (MS in Auronautics--Aeronautics and Space Studies) between graduation and starting pilot training (UPT) which I continued through most of UPT. BUT, toward the end of UPT, I came down with viral meningitis, incomplete-failed the two E-R courses I was in and was pulled from pilot training. After about 6 to 9 months of being basically worthless to anyone, I was determined to be well enough to continue training. So, I restarted UPT phase 3 for fighter/bomber track and was able to graduate and go on to my asssigned aircraft around the end of 2010. I was able to fly for a while before a medical review raised some flags about the headaches I was still having, and I was pulled from flying again.

Around this time I enrolled in an EMS program at the local community college and got about half-way through EMT-B before I was deployed (90 days). I took an incomplete, but came back and passed the NREMT exam, so my grade was changed to a B. I signed up for the AEMT course at the same school the next semester, only this time I made it 3 weeks into the course before deploying, and again came back and passed the NREMT exam, so that grade was also changed from I to B. Rode with the local EMS/Fire for as long as I could without being hired (only a paid service), then hooked up with a VFD in the next town over--ultimately doing more firefighting than medical calls. I also started a different Masters program for a MS in Psychology because, at the time, a masters degree was required for promotion and I was much more interested in psychology than an MBA or criminal justice. About 6 months later I deployed again (120 days), came back for a couple weeks, then deployed again (120 days). This time I was colocated with the Joint Theater Hospital at Bagram and got to be pretty involved with their ER and OR because of my EMS quals, and got just over 500 hours there. While there, I also finished 33 hours for my MS-Psych and graduated SCL with a 4.0.

After I came back from this deployment, I was home for about 6 months before I was sent overseas for a year (2016-2017). Started flying again (2017-2018), got medically disqualified again this spring, and am now working a desk job.

I'm looking pretty heavily at USUHS, largely due to my prior service and that I wouldn't have a break in service if I went there. But, realistically, once I've served all of my current commitment with the AF in 2020, I'll be pretty much looking for anywhere I can get accepted.

I'm starting back into shadowing and volunteering, also looking into scribing opportunities in my off time. I'm aiming at somewhere around the 2020/2021 cycle, but really just need to find a path, map it, and follow it.

Challenges:
Terrible uGPA and sGPA
Heavy BCPM and almost all prereqs already taken, so most post-baccs are out
Based on the AMCAS gpa calculator, If i did an entire BS-Biochem degree at a local school with a 4.0, I'd only BARELY break 3.0.
Full time military (but no deployments anytime soon)
Time--lots of classes to take/retake, but it's difficult to schedule classes/labs around working 12+ hours a day; some schools don't allow online/hybrid for prereqs
Can't do full-time brick and mortar school
Haven't taken the MCAT yet--I could do self-study and/or a Kaplan type prep course and take it in the spring, but I won't have taken any science classes for 10+ years

Vitals:
Academy: 144.5 hrs, gpa-2.32; sgpa-2.23
ERAU: 15 hrs, gpa-2.2 (B, A, A, F, F)
CC: 17 hrs, gpa-3.0
Masters: 39 hrs, gpa-4.0;

Volunteer Fire Dept: ~6 months
Craig Joint Theater Hospital (Bagram): 503 hrs, ER/OR volunteer
Currently Inactive, Unaffiliated EMT

 

[deleted932911]

meltedwings, Action movie caliber train wreck, I approve, if I had been a science major my first go around I wouldn't have made it through!

I got a buddy who's still active trying to juggle pre-med classes and it seems inefficient. if you have the freedom and the all consuming desire, cut sling load and commit to put in the work needed. not just 1 or 2 classes at a time, but a full 16-19 credits of science with labs and demonstrate the goofball you were then is not the goofball you are now, because I'm guessing we're both just older goofballs still.

Maybe not the best idea, but last semester I took Physics2 w/lab, genetics w/lab, AP2 w/lab, biochem, and medical physiology on top of the volunteering, EMS training, and research. I got a B in genetics which sucks, but I think I demonstrated to myself, and also adcoms, that I've reformed, in a way that you lose taking one class at a time. I didn't half ass my GPA into the hole it's in, so I figured I couldn't half ass my way out

Buckle up bucaroos, and get ready for this car wreck of a history...


Similar to ak4life up above, I graduated from a service academy ~10 years ago. BS in Biology with a gpa of 2.32, sgpa of 2.23 which I attribute to gross misprioritization of academics behind military training and intercollegiate athletics. But hey, I wanted to be a pilot and I had a pulse, so off I went to become a pilot. Started a Masters with Embry-Riddle (MS in Auronautics--Aeronautics and Space Studies) between graduation and starting pilot training (UPT) which I continued through most of UPT. BUT, toward the end of UPT, I came down with viral meningitis, incomplete-failed the two E-R courses I was in and was pulled from pilot training. After about 6 to 9 months of being basically worthless to anyone, I was determined to be well enough to continue training. So, I restarted UPT phase 3 for fighter/bomber track and was able to graduate and go on to my asssigned aircraft around the end of 2010. I was able to fly for a while before a medical review raised some flags about the headaches I was still having, and I was pulled from flying again.

Around this time I enrolled in an EMS program at the local community college and got about half-way through EMT-B before I was deployed (90 days). I took an incomplete, but came back and passed the NREMT exam, so my grade was changed to a B. I signed up for the AEMT course at the same school the next semester, only this time I made it 3 weeks into the course before deploying, and again came back and passed the NREMT exam, so that grade was also changed from I to B. Rode with the local EMS/Fire for as long as I could without being hired (only a paid service), then hooked up with a VFD in the next town over--ultimately doing more firefighting than medical calls. I also started a different Masters program for a MS in Psychology because, at the time, a masters degree was required for promotion and I was much more interested in psychology than an MBA or criminal justice. About 6 months later I deployed again (120 days), came back for a couple weeks, then deployed again (120 days). This time I was colocated with the Joint Theater Hospital at Bagram and got to be pretty involved with their ER and OR because of my EMS quals, and got just over 500 hours there. While there, I also finished 33 hours for my MS-Psych and graduated SCL with a 4.0.

After I came back from this deployment, I was home for about 6 months before I was sent overseas for a year (2016-2017). Started flying again (2017-2018), got medically disqualified again this spring, and am now working a desk job.

I'm looking pretty heavily at USUHS, largely due to my prior service and that I wouldn't have a break in service if I went there. But, realistically, once I've served all of my current commitment with the AF in 2020, I'll be pretty much looking for anywhere I can get accepted.

I'm starting back into shadowing and volunteering, also looking into scribing opportunities in my off time. I'm aiming at somewhere around the 2020/2021 cycle, but really just need to find a path, map it, and follow it.

Challenges:
Terrible uGPA and sGPA
Heavy BCPM and almost all prereqs already taken, so most post-baccs are out
Based on the AMCAS gpa calculator, If i did an entire BS-Biochem degree at a local school with a 4.0, I'd only BARELY break 3.0.
Full time military (but no deployments anytime soon)
Time--lots of classes to take/retake, but it's difficult to schedule classes/labs around working 12+ hours a day; some schools don't allow online/hybrid for prereqs
Can't do full-time brick and mortar school
Haven't taken the MCAT yet--I could do self-study and/or a Kaplan type prep course and take it in the spring, but I won't have taken any science classes for 10+ years

Vitals:
Academy: 144.5 hrs, gpa-2.32; sgpa-2.23
ERAU: 15 hrs, gpa-2.2 (B, A, A, F, F)
CC: 17 hrs, gpa-3.0
Masters: 39 hrs, gpa-4.0;

Volunteer Fire Dept: ~6 months
Craig Joint Theater Hospital (Bagram): 503 hrs, ER/OR volunteer
Currently Inactive, Unaffiliated EMT

 

[nesperson]

Hi guys!

So glad this forum exists, it's so helpful to hear other stories.

I really got myself into a pickle. I graduated with a uGPA of 2.4 and have failed some classes. I was immature and did not prioritize my studies the way I should have. Since then I have grown a lot and have been working as a research assistant for a few years (no publications yet), I started a wellness business, gained my EMT license, and have been working at an animal clinic. I have a calling to become a doctor and have been looking into what it would take to reinvent myself at this point.

I have read Goro's advice on reinvention and read through posts here and seems like everyone is saying the key is to go back and redo F/C/D classes and score great on MCATs. However, with AACOM doing away with grade replacement, does this still apply? Is it possible for anyone who starts under 3.0 to get into a bridge program/DO school/allopathic school with this new rule? I know that there are schools that value reinvention, but would I be able to make the cut-off with my past?

I was hoping that a couple years of a great upwards trend/experience would be key but I have been seeing mixed responses. I would appreciate any honest advice.

 

[etp123]

Hi guys!

So glad this forum exists, it's so helpful to hear other stories.

I really got myself into a pickle. I graduated with a uGPA of 2.4 and have failed some classes. I was immature and did not prioritize my studies the way I should have. Since then I have grown a lot and have been working as a research assistant for a few years (no publications yet), I started a wellness business, gained my EMT license, and have been working at an animal clinic. I have a calling to become a doctor and have been looking into what it would take to reinvent myself at this point.

I have read Goro's advice on reinvention and read through posts here and seems like everyone is saying the key is to go back and redo F/C/D classes and score great on MCATs. However, with AACOM doing away with grade replacement, does this still apply? Is it possible for anyone who starts under 3.0 to get into a bridge program/DO school/allopathic school with this new rule? I know that there are schools that value reinvention, but would I be able to make the cut-off with my past?

I was hoping that a couple years of a great upwards trend/experience would be key but I have been seeing mixed responses. I would appreciate any honest advice.

Yes. Even before grade replacement was done away with, people who started with sub-3.0 GPAs were able to get into MD schools after reinvention and AMCAS has never had grade replacement to begin with. I was just looking at Loyola med's stats page and the lowest GPA they admitted this year to their MD program was like a 2.68 giving evidence that it is possible. Of course we don't know that 2.68's story and how they got their MD acceptance but it goes to show a sub-3.0 is not damning especially if you give hard evidence that you're a great student now by performing well on your postbac work.

And even if you check the data provided by the AAMC (aka the infamous table a-23) for people who were admitted to med school by GPA and MCAT, you will very well see there were at least a few hundred sub-3.0 applicants who gained an MD acceptance. DO schools are also still more friendly to re-inventors and you still have a good shot with them too.

 

[Astharia]

Yes. Even before grade replacement was done away with, people who started with sub-3.0 GPAs were able to get into MD schools after reinvention and AMCAS has never had grade replacement to begin with. I was just looking at Loyola med's stats page and the lowest GPA they admitted this year to their MD program was like a 2.68 giving evidence that it is possible. Of course we don't know that 2.68's story and how they got their MD acceptance but it goes to show a sub-3.0 is not damning especially if you give hard evidence that you're a great student now by performing well on your postbac work.

And even if you check the data provided by the AAMC (aka the infamous table a-23) for people who were admitted to med school by GPA and MCAT, you will very well see there were at least a few hundred sub-3.0 applicants who gained an MD acceptance. DO schools are also still more friendly to re-inventors and you still have a good shot with them too.

I've seen stat after stat saying that it's possible, etc... But even after applying to 30+ schools, great master's work, great story, LORs, and passion for primary care and rural medicine, I still can't get interviews. I've been complete since July at all schools buy two. Only got one interview at my Master's school that ultimately lead to rejection because of undergrad grades (yeah, they site their master's as GPA fixing yet really count on that uGPA for admission). They did give me feedback btw, which was basically interview went great...uGPA sucks.


I personally don't think it's possible unless you're URM and qualify as disadvantaged etc...

Next year it looks like for me. Hopefully at my Master's school. I love it so much and it is home.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using SDN mobile

 

[etp123]

I've seen stat after stat saying that it's possible, etc... But even after applying to 30+ schools, great master's work, great story, LORs, and passion for primary care and rural medicine, I still can't get interviews. I've been complete since July at all schools buy two. Only got one interview at my Master's school that ultimately lead to rejection because of undergrad grades (yeah, they site their master's as GPA fixing yet really count on that uGPA for admission). They did give me feedback btw, which was basically interview went great...uGPA sucks.


I personally don't think it's possible unless you're URM and qualify as disadvantaged etc...

Next year it looks like for me. Hopefully at my Master's school. I love it so much and it is home.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using SDN mobile

Yes this is very true, a majority of those sub-3.0's could be from people who are URM or have some very special circumstance. All we know is their GPA and MCAT from the stats they give, although there does seem to be a higher proportion of acceptances if they had a high MCAT so I would think that plays a role too. Not saying a high MCAT should be taken to erase uGPA damage, for many schools of course it won't, but I do believe it helps if you pair it with recent good coursework and remediation of any C or below prereqs. I do think the stories we hear from people in this thread and the low GPA success stories thread do show it's possible, since several of those people weren't URM/disadvantaged.

I'm sorry to hear your cycle isn't going so productively so far . Do you have a plan in place between now and next cycle? Stay strong, these will just be momentary setbacks in your journey and you can only continue to grow from here. I know it doesn't mean much being the internet at all, but I'm wishing you the best and hope some good will come your way.

 

[Astharia]

Yes this is very true, a majority of those sub-3.0's could be from people who are URM or have some very special circumstance. All we know is their GPA and MCAT from the stats they give, although there does seem to be a higher proportion of acceptances if they had a high MCAT so I would think that plays a role too. Not saying a high MCAT should be taken to erase uGPA damage, for many schools of course it won't, but I do believe it helps if you pair it with recent good coursework and remediation of any C or below prereqs. I do think the stories we hear from people in this thread and the low GPA success stories thread do show it's possible, since several of those people weren't URM/disadvantaged.

I'm sorry to hear your cycle isn't going so productively so far . Do you have a plan in place between now and next cycle? Stay strong, these will just be momentary setbacks in your journey and you can only continue to grow from here. I know it doesn't mean much being the internet at all, but I'm wishing you the best and hope some good will come your way.

Thanks. I do have a plan. I'm taking three upper level science courses in the spring since that's what my school recommended. Probably retake MCAT too. If I get great grades I better get in because I'll be writing my thesis at the same time lol. With three kids and a hubby getting his second master's it's going to be a painful semester.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using SDN mobile

 

[Jbuoy3]

First time posting here, but I've been reading a lot of posts and feel confident to post. I'd like some advice on my situation! I have always loved medicine , but I sorta had a 1/5 life crisis??? I am currently a 3rd year working on my undergrad majoring in Mechanical Engineering. (was planning to either go into medical devices and eventually into management) My cGPA is around a 3.1 and my science GPA is around a 2.8-2.9. I came into my University as a Biological Sciences major and finished my entire first year taking the classes. I also had about 300 hours of volunteer work and about 150-200 hours physician shadowing. The entire time I had a crisis between pre-med and engineering and decided to switch to engineering because I did not think I would have the commitment to stick to pre-med and then med school and so on. The summer after my first year I took 22 units of engineering classes to catch up (not my brightest idea) and it kinda tanked my GPA because I grabbed a four B's and two C. My 2nd year I just continued doing my engineering classes which were pretty painful compared and grabbed some more B's. Afterwards I got an internship where I worked closely with physicians at a hospital working towards medical innovation and tech, but at the same time I was able to go into the OR and clinic to observe physicians at work. This internship really revived my love for medicine. All my friends are still on the pre-med route and whenever they bring up school and talk about their classes I feel superior to them because honestly I've learned everything they are doing at the moment a year before in my BME classes so that is kind of a confidence booster. Now I am wondering if should just switch back to Bio and get back on the route or just finish my engineering degree and do a post bacc afterwards. However, continuing my engineering degree will most likely bring my GPA the same or bring it down. Completing both either major should take about the same amount of time??? Its not that I hate engineering its just a part of me is telling me to go back to medicine and I am getting these urges a lot more frequently lately after the internship. Sorry this is a lot and its all jumbled up, but this has been on my mind a lot lately.

 

[etp123]

Grades matter a lot when it comes to med school admissions. They are not the be all end all... but they have been ranked along with the MCAT as the most important determinants considered by adcoms. If your heart is set on medicine and you are aware that continuing your engineering degree is going to tank your GPA, then switch out now. With a 3.1 cGPA and a 2.9-2.9 sGPA you cannot dip any lower or you will just be digging an even bigger hole to climb out of. And as you can tell from the previous posts, it is not an easy climb. You have to do disproportionately more work to make up for errors. It's probably cheaper this way since you would have paid this tuition anyway to finish your engineering degree, and you'll have priority to enroll in the courses you need. Finishing your degree then doing a postbac is more costly because unless it is a DIY postbac, they tend to be pretty expensive.

All my friends are still on the pre-med route and whenever they bring up school and talk about their classes I feel superior to them because honestly I've learned everything they are doing at the moment a year before in my BME classes so that is kind of a confidence booster.

Also, this is my personal gripe, but I would take that ego down a couple notches. You will not know until you get to the exam how you will perform, and just because you're familiar with these topics beforehand doesn't mean you should look down on your friends who are just learning them...

 

[Jbuoy3]

Grades matter a lot when it comes to med school admissions. They are not the be all end all... but they have been ranked along with the MCAT as the most important determinants considered by adcoms. If your heart is set on medicine and you are aware that continuing your engineering degree is going to tank your GPA, then switch out now. With a 3.1 cGPA and a 2.9-2.9 sGPA you cannot dip any lower or you will just be digging an even bigger hole to climb out of. And as you can tell from the previous posts, it is not an easy climb. You have to do disproportionately more work to make up for errors. It's probably cheaper this way since you would have paid this tuition anyway to finish your engineering degree, and you'll have priority to enroll in the courses you need. Finishing your degree then doing a postbac is more costly because unless it is a DIY postbac, they tend to be pretty expensive.



Also, this is my personal gripe, but I would take that ego down a couple notches. You will not know until you get to the exam how you will perform, and just because you're familiar with these topics beforehand doesn't mean you should look down on your friends who are just learning them...

Sorry I didn't mean it like that! I didn't really add it, but at the time I switched majors I was pretty insecure due to a toxic relationship where I was being put down all the time so that kind of factored in me not thinking I could be able to commit to such a grueling path like pre-med. But like when I would study with my friends and they would be talking asking questions I would be able to understand them and be able to help them. The fact that I was able to even understand what they were talking about sort of made me realize that I'm capable of doing whatever I want as long as I put my mind to it. Apologies for making it seem like I look down on my friends or just people outside of my major. I see it as every major is difficult in its own way i.e. for econ the only thing that comes to my mind is like freaking supply and demand even though I've probably taken like 3 quarters of econ... lol. Also thanks for the response !!

 

[nesperson]

Yes. Even before grade replacement was done away with, people who started with sub-3.0 GPAs were able to get into MD schools after reinvention and AMCAS has never had grade replacement to begin with. I was just looking at Loyola med's stats page and the lowest GPA they admitted this year to their MD program was like a 2.68 giving evidence that it is possible. Of course we don't know that 2.68's story and how they got their MD acceptance but it goes to show a sub-3.0 is not damning especially if you give hard evidence that you're a great student now by performing well on your postbac work.

And even if you check the data provided by the AAMC (aka the infamous table a-23) for people who were admitted to med school by GPA and MCAT, you will very well see there were at least a few hundred sub-3.0 applicants who gained an MD acceptance. DO schools are also still more friendly to re-inventors and you still have a good shot with them too.

Thank you for your input. It appears like it's not hopeless and with enough work, it could be possible. I'm rerouting my path now a bit for the sake of time and expenses. I'm going to apply for a 1 year nursing masters, then once I become a registered nurse I'll work on improving my GPA. I figure that working in the field will get me the experience I need and vital exposure. I won't stop trying however, I'm going to just take it a step at a time.

 

[HT2341]

I want to interject here real quick to say I've lurked this thread for a few years now and wanted to offer some hope to those of you grinding! I finished undergrad with a <2.5 gpa and was pretty overwhelmed trying to crawl out of that hole when I went all in on getting into medical school. A few years later and in my first cycle I have just received my first acceptance with a handful of other II's attended and more scheduled. Big shout out to @Faha for giving me an initial trajectory of schools to target and @Goro for the reinvention guide (wish I would have found this earlier in the process).

The biggest things pieces of advice I've picked up along the way are to stay patient (time away from a poor performance + reinvention turnaround=success), find what parts of medicine you love and why then double down in tangible experiences on those passions, and take care of yourself physically and mentally throughout it all. I know a lot of people say to look for the light at the end of the tunnel, but I truly believe it's important to enjoy the process. It's a long road that takes up a proportion of our lives too significant to just keep waiting for it to end. Good luck to all of you earlier in the process, you can get there!

 

[nesperson]

I want to interject here real quick to say I've lurked this thread for a few years now and wanted to offer some hope to those of you grinding! I finished undergrad with a <2.5 gpa and was pretty overwhelmed trying to crawl out of that hole when I went all in on getting into medical school. A few years later and in my first cycle I have just received my first acceptance with a handful of other II's attended and more scheduled. Big shout out to @Faha for giving me an initial trajectory of schools to target and @Goro for the reinvention guide (wish I would have found this earlier in the process).

The biggest things pieces of advice I've picked up along the way are to stay patient (time away from a poor performance + reinvention turnaround=success), find what parts of medicine you love and why then double down in tangible experiences on those passions, and take care of yourself physically and mentally throughout it all. I know a lot of people say to look for the light at the end of the tunnel, but I truly believe it's important to enjoy the process. It's a long road that takes up a proportion of our lives too significant to just keep waiting for it to end. Good luck to all of you earlier in the process, you can get there!

Hey, congratulations on your acceptance and hard work! Your post gave me hope, I also have a <2.5 GPA. I also like what you said about enjoying the journey, I look at it the same way. I was wondering how you remediated your transcript and if you could tell me about your journey to medical school?

 

[HT2341]

Hey, congratulations on your acceptance and hard work! Your post gave me hope, I also have a <2.5 GPA. I also like what you said about enjoying the journey, I look at it the same way. I was wondering how you remediated your transcript and if you could tell me about your journey to medical school?

I'll PM you!

PM me and I can give you the scoop!

 

[ICUNurse2MD]

I have 1 DO and 2 MD interviews so far this cycle! Nontrad paramedic, ORM, 2.79 cGPA and 2.53sGPA with a 509 MCAT. My story very similar to yours. Came back from a rock bottom GPA to where I am now. The you then is not the you now! Work that angle. You have a lot to offer.

Hi I have a 2.6 cumulative GPA. I am also a ICU nurse similar to your story what did you do get your gpa up from rock bottom ? Did you take a SMP or just do DIY

 

[etp123]

Hi I have a 2.6 cumulative GPA. I am also a ICU nurse similar to your story what did you do get your gpa up from rock bottom ? Did you take a SMP or just do DIY

DIY postbac or formal postbac will be the way to raise your cGPA as long as the postbac classes are at the undergraduate level. SMP might help but won't raise your cGPA, which won't help you get past the screens if the schools you're applying to screen out sub 3.0 GPAs.

 

[hopesofMedSchool]

Hello Everyone,

I’m so glad i found this forum. I don’t know my actual sgpa, but I know it’s horrible. Mostly C’s. Can someone please explain to me how their working on their gpa being that there is no more grade replacement ? I feel horrible about my chances. I haven’t taken the MCATs yet, i just started working as a medical scribe so hopefully will get a few recommendations before applying to schools. I just need help because I am so confused.

 

[etp123]

Hello Everyone,

I’m so glad i found this forum. I don’t know my actual sgpa, but I know it’s horrible. Mostly C’s. Can someone please explain to me how their working on their gpa being that there is no more grade replacement ? I feel horrible about my chances. I haven’t taken the MCATs yet, i just started working as a medical scribe so hopefully will get a few recommendations before applying to schools. I just need help because I am so confused.

I've improved the AMCAS/AACOMAS GPA Calculator Spreadsheet

You can use this calculator to plug in your grades and then see how many hypothetical classes you'll need. It's probably not feasible to pull your GPA up to a "competitive" level, but what you can do is at least still pull your GPA above a 3.0 to get past screens and show a recent trend of good academic performance.

Here is also a helpful guide: Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

Basically, retake anything you got below a C in, and take some upper division science classes. Have at least 1 year (better if more) of a full courseload and aim to do well (A's, A-'s). Even though grade replacement is gone your chances are not 0. It will be a long and difficult road, though, so be honest with yourself. There is also a wealth of information about reinvention on this forum so spend a lot of time searching and reading and don't be afraid to ask questions. Good luck!

 

[neurosurgeon_wannabe]

**Edited for privacy**
Summary of the edited post:
-Non-trad, URM, 1st time applicant
-Sub 3.0 undergrad GPA
-Messed up a DIY post-bacc and got a sub 3.0 then, too
- >95th percentile MCAT
-10,000 clinical hours, very strong MD rec letters
-Accepted to a mid-tier MD school, received an II to another mid-tier (decision pending)

 

[Cen]

Pretty amazing how many people this thread helped succeed. The stories just keep coming. Keep at it everyone.

 

[HVWebster]

Heyo!

First post on SDN, longtime lurker. Excuse my ignorance if I've missed a finer point of SDN etiquette, but I'd like some blunt feedback.

I eeked out a 2.7cGPA with an impressively low 1.9sGPA from a service academy ~10 years ago. Calc and calc based physics had their way with me and I was happy to escape. I'm wrapping up a DIY post-bacc now, 77 credits (all prereqs and upperdiv bio) with a 3.8, but that cGPA won't budge, current AMCAS cGPA 3.08 and sGPA 2.9 with a killer upward trend!

Will those numbers get me screened before I have a chance to let them know how cool I am?

Here's the rest of my stats, kind of a WAMC, given my anchor GPA

-6 months out from my MCAT, ~500 on 2 practices with no review. Goal is 515 and I think that's reasonable given my timeline/resources.
-several years paid/volunteer clinical experience as an Advanced EMT at a rural fire dept and remote ALS work. 1000's of paid/volunteer hours
-NIH funded independent undergrad research, no publications but damn I learned a lot.
-starting shadowing, will get between 50-100 hours in primary care, addiction med, EM, ortho, cardiology by June.
-several years consistent, substantial volunteering with a nonprofit educational farm
- I left the military as an officer, leadership and teaching positions, did some cool, feel good stuff in underserved areas which is how I got interested in medicine
I'm white and I live in a ruralish part of Alaska
Starting work on my personal statement and getting letter writers notified.

Obviously UW is my best bet, but I will apply to ~20 MD/DO programs.

Ramble complete, thanks gang

AK4Life, I thought that I was reading my own bio there for a second, between the Service Academy, underserved populations, and even Advanced EMT work.

Service Academy, about the same grades. Turns out that after growing up a little bit, I am able to get much better grades than the 19-year old me. About to get out in a few months and full time post-bacc to recover.

Let me know how you fare- it's a tough uphill battle that I'm definitely willing to start.

 

[Fun1nth3sun1]

I was recently lucky enough to get accepted to a US MD school with a sub-3.0 GPA. So, I want to share a little bit of my journey/story, so that maybe some of you current and/or future applicants can find something of use from it. Obviously, not everything from my case will be generalizable, but perhaps there will be some aspects that are similar enough to some of you.

For starters, though, I think the biggest thing I'd like anybody to take from my story, though, is: DO. NOT. DO. WHAT. I. DID. I got incredibly lucky. Nine times out of 10, somebody exactly like me would not have gotten in. I still don't know what my future school saw in me, but, whatever it was, a lot of luck was involved. If you want to save yourself some of the crippling stress and anxiety that I lived through this cycle, either right the ship while you're still in UG (if you have the chance) or "reinvent" yourself the right way (a la Goro's guide).

Okay, I'll try to keep this as brief as possible:

I am a non-trad, URM applicant.

When I graduated from undergrad ~4-5 years ago, my cGPA was ~2.75, and, embarrassingly, my sGPA was a little below 2.5. Even worse, I had a downward trend from Freshman year. I had/have no good reason or excuse to have performed so poorly. No disadvantage, no crippling health issue, etc. Frankly, I was just a lazy student. Even though I really loved the courses I took, I truly did not care about doing well in them at all.

So, basically, I had potentially screwed myself out of ever having a career in Medicine. But I still wanted to try. Right after graduation, I began working in clinical research, which I have continued to work in this entire time. While working, I eventually began a DIY post-bac at a local university to retake a lot of my pre-reqs.

The only problem was, I completely bombed it by getting 2 Fs (although everything else was "A"s and "B"s). I took about 20-25 credits of all BCPM, and, as expected, the 2 Fs left the post-bac sGPA in the 2.5s, and actually lowered my cGPA slightly....

Despite this all, I still wanted to push through. I took the MCAT during this time, and got a score I'm still very proud of: 518. This at least gave me a glimmer of hope, but the AAMC data showed that, with these stats, the outlook was still bleak/unpredictable.
(https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstablea23.pdf & https://www.aamc.org/download/321520/data/factstablea24-5.pdf)

I finally bucked-up the courage to apply during this cycle (2018-2019), and my final stats/ECs looked like this:

Stats:
-2.7 cGPA, sub-2.5 sGPA
-518 MCAT (I did take the "old" MCAT right before it changed, too, and scored a 30)

ECs
-10K hours of paid clinical research (with a lot of direct patient contact)
-550 hours of lab/bench research
-30 hours of shadowing
-100 hours of non-clinical volunteer work
-25 hours of clinical volunteer work
-Also a collegiate athlete, with a number of individual awards

Essays
-My personal statement was solid, but, admittedly, nothing amazing
-My secondary essays were solid, but, again, nothing super outstanding. For the school that I eventually got into, my essays just happened to fit really well with their "mission", although only one of them was actually written specifically for that school (I did a lot of cutting-and-pasting. I just got lucky!)

LORs
-2 science professors from undergrad
-2 very, very strong MD letters from my PIs, both academic faculty at the T20 med school at which I work

I received one II this cycle, and I'm lucky that it turned into an acceptance. Again, I was 100% lucky, and I am forever grateful.
Good luck to all of you other people out there. Feel free to PM if you have questions about anything.

Thank you for posting your story. I am no expert on admissions but I think that if you had replaced those two Fs in your post-bacc with As, you probably would have gotten more interviews! But I am glad it worked out for you, Congratulations!

 

[GoodLawd]

Hi guys!

So glad this forum exists, it's so helpful to hear other stories.

I really got myself into a pickle. I graduated with a uGPA of 2.4 and have failed some classes. I was immature and did not prioritize my studies the way I should have. Since then I have grown a lot and have been working as a research assistant for a few years (no publications yet), I started a wellness business, gained my EMT license, and have been working at an animal clinic. I have a calling to become a doctor and have been looking into what it would take to reinvent myself at this point.

I have read Goro's advice on reinvention and read through posts here and seems like everyone is saying the key is to go back and redo F/C/D classes and score great on MCATs. However, with AACOM doing away with grade replacement, does this still apply? Is it possible for anyone who starts under 3.0 to get into a bridge program/DO school/allopathic school with this new rule? I know that there are schools that value reinvention, but would I be able to make the cut-off with my past?

I was hoping that a couple years of a great upwards trend/experience would be key but I have been seeing mixed responses. I would appreciate any honest advice.

It is possible. Though I wasn’t under a 3.0 when I applied... that’s about where I started before post bacc.

According to AMCAS my GPA was a 3.3 cum and a 3.6 sGPA. This is without grade replacement of course. I screwed my self over early on by not taking classes seriously. I also got a 500 on the MCAT that being said I was a below average applicant. But...I’m a current first year med student at an MD school, in the top 30% of my class, and I have a full ride.

I had some research and volunteer experience nothing Insane but I worked full time as a med assistant for a few years. So how’d I get here? I took the gamble of doing a post bacc program for a second BS and during the app process I started a masters program in biology. I wrote a stellar personal statement and when I got interviews I told my story as honestly as possible. I took the time to understand who I am, worked with underserved populations when I volunteered, and overall pursued things that were meaningful to me.

My advice is to take extra science classes beef up your GPA as much as possible and only do ECs that are meaningful to you. It shows when you go in for the interviews. It took me ten years to get into med school but I only applied once and I applied when I knew my app was as strong as it was going to get with my uGPA and ECs. It is possible you just have to finesse with what you have.

 

[neurosurgeon_wannabe]

Thank you for posting your story. I am no expert on admissions but I think that if you had replaced those two Fs in your post-bacc with As, you probably would have gotten more interviews! But I am glad it worked out for you, Congratulations!

LOL, one of the "F"s was for a class I was already retaking because I got a "D" in it the first time
So I decided to just cut my losses and take the L

 

[Themanso88]

You mentioned fresh start. Are you referring to Academic Fresh Start in Texas? If it's a "fresh start" through your university, the grades stand and will need to be calculated toward your overall/science GPA when applying.

You may know this already but just wanted to see.

no IUP fresh restart

 

[Violagirl]

I want to interject here real quick to say I've lurked this thread for a few years now and wanted to offer some hope to those of you grinding! I finished undergrad with a <2.5 gpa and was pretty overwhelmed trying to crawl out of that hole when I went all in on getting into medical school. A few years later and in my first cycle I have just received my first acceptance with a handful of other II's attended and more scheduled. Big shout out to @Faha for giving me an initial trajectory of schools to target and @Goro for the reinvention guide (wish I would have found this earlier in the process).

The biggest things pieces of advice I've picked up along the way are to stay patient (time away from a poor performance + reinvention turnaround=success), find what parts of medicine you love and why then double down in tangible experiences on those passions, and take care of yourself physically and mentally throughout it all. I know a lot of people say to look for the light at the end of the tunnel, but I truly believe it's important to enjoy the process. It's a long road that takes up a proportion of our lives too significant to just keep waiting for it to end. Good luck to all of you earlier in the process, you can get there!

Congratulations on your amazing accomplishment that is really great!!! If you wouldn't mind, can you also PM me your story? I'd love to hear about your journey.

 

[Fun1nth3sun1]

Hey everyone,
I was wondering if you guys could let me know what are my chances to apply to D.O School and some state MD schools depending on MCAT score.
So my undergrad gpa is embarrassingly a 2.3 gpa not including the DIY Postbacc.I anticipate my gpa rising to 2.54. I have since completed a Health science masters specialization in clinical laboratory sciences with a 3.9 gpa
I am also in the process of completing 30 credit DIY post-bacc and I anticipate finishing in the early June currently 4.0 gpa.
Have not taken the MCAT but I am scoring 510 currently and hoping to increase that score.

ECs
-1000+ hours of lab/bench research
-50 hours of shadowing DO OMM Physician
-100 hours of non-clinical volunteer work
-120 hours of clinical volunteer work


Essays
-My personal statement is very compelling and includes a personal story of death in family and environmental disaster I recently went through
LORs
-2 science professors from undergrad
-1 LOR from DO physician I shadowed
-1 LOR from MD/phD Director where I work

I plan on applying this cycle with hopefully a strong MCAT score. Assuming my MCAT is in 510 range Do I have a chance?

 

[GoodLawd]

Hey everyone,
I was wondering if you guys could let me know what are my chances to apply to D.O School and some state MD schools depending on MCAT score.
So my undergrad gpa is embarrassingly a 2.3 gpa not including the DIY Postbacc.I anticipate my gpa rising to 2.54. I have since completed a Health science masters specialization in clinical laboratory sciences with a 3.9 gpa
I am also in the process of completing 30 credit DIY post-bacc and I anticipate finishing in the early June currently 4.0 gpa.
Have not taken the MCAT but I am scoring 510 currently and hoping to increase that score.

ECs
-1000+ hours of lab/bench research
-50 hours of shadowing DO OMM Physician
-100 hours of non-clinical volunteer work
-120 hours of clinical volunteer work


Essays
-My personal statement is very compelling and includes a personal story of death in family and environmental disaster I recently went through
LORs
-2 science professors from undergrad
-1 LOR from DO physician I shadowed
-1 LOR from MD/phD Director where I work

I plan on applying this cycle with hopefully a strong MCAT score. Assuming my MCAT is in 510 range Do I have a chance?

Reach out to faha or goro pages. Also post this in what are my chances. Once you have your mcat score, it’ll be solid in gauging where you should apply. I suggest applying broadly though no matter what. Also keep in mind the financial assistance you can apply for in the app process, it’ll help keep down the cost.

 

[GoodLawd]

Reach out to faha or goro pages. Also post this in what are my chances. Once you have your mcat score, it’ll be solid in gauging where you should apply. I suggest applying broadly though no matter what. Also keep in mind the financial assistance you can apply for in the app process, it’ll help keep down the cost.

There is also a calculator to help gauge where you’ll be on amcas GPA. It helped me when I applied, give it a google.

 

[astrostellar]

I had a bit of a career epiphany and I stopped pushing so hard, credit-wise, every semester, for the sake of my sanity. But I'm still plodding along! ...Just more slowly. I'm at a 2.62c/2.63s.

 

[Dr.Gains]

I had a bit of a career epiphany and I stopped pushing so hard, credit-wise, every semester, for the sake of my sanity. But I'm still plodding along! ...Just more slowly. I'm at a 2.62c/2.63s.

You got this.

 

[EasyEveryoneWouldDoIt]

for those still going through the process. i graduated college with a 2.8 gpa a long time ago. after a post bac which barely moved it to a 3.05. i managed to score a decent MCAT and sitting on 4 acceptances all M.D. right now and still a few schools to hear back from. keep your head up and remember some schools do look at the entire picture

 

[fyang0414]

Did all my pre-reqs and a community college and transferred with a 2.9 GPA a while back. Took the MCAT 6 times, my most recent being a decent score. Currently have one DO acceptance and one MD acceptance and still waiting on a few schools. You can do this! I believe in you all!

 

[Dr.Gains]

Did all my pre-reqs and a community college and trransferred with a 2.9 GPA a while back. Took the MCAT 6 times, my most recent being a decent score. Currently have one DO acceptance and one MD acceptance and still waiting on a few schools. You can do this! I believe in you all!

I commend you perseverance and grit. I'm sure you will become a great doctor, congratulations!

 

[XWing5000]

It's very refreshing to see I'm not the only one on this crazy journey! A lot of these stories are very encouraging.
- BS. Computer Information Systems, cGPA 2.9 / 1.7 sGPA- I've only taken Gen Chem 1 ( C) Gen Chem 2 (D+) and Bio 1 (C). I did the mistake of trying to take the gen chem series over the summer with an hour 20 min commute + work and participate in a summer program. Additionally, I overloaded on units(24) in the fall when I took Bio 1. That was a terrible mistake.
- 1500+ hours working as a behavioral therapist - Provided in-home behavioral therapy for children that have mental disabilities (autism, cerebral palsy, epilepsy, down syndrome, shaken baby syndrome)
- Summer research program, 1 posterboard presentation
- 2-week missions trip to El Salvador - helped kids in orphanages, built a lot of stuff, served local communites+schools
-15 hrs non-clinical volunteering
-No shadowing

I've learned the hard way that this process is a marathon and not a sprint. Fortunetly, I still have most of my prereqs to finish and work on getting shadowing hours+clinlical volunteering.

 

[DocSherman]

for those still going through the process. i graduated college with a 2.8 gpa a long time ago. after a post bac which barely moved it to a 3.05. i managed to score a decent MCAT and sitting on 4 acceptances all M.D. right now and still a few schools to hear back from. keep your head up and remember some schools do look at the entire picture

Congrats! If its not too personal, what is the MCAT?

I'm somewhat borderline too, though its my science GPA that's the foible to my whole application. I'm redoing my MCAT as well.

In regards to your app, what do you think convinced the four MD schools to accept you, if its not too personal?

 

[EasyEveryoneWouldDoIt]

my MCAT is 513. and i stood out because of my clinical experience and also exposure to different cultures

 

[DocSherman]

my MCAT is 513. and i stood out because of my clinical experience and also exposure to different cultures

513 is better than decent. Congrats!

I too have clinical experience, though not much in the way of culture exposure. My biggest draw in terms of experience is my involvement with clinical research.

 

[EasyEveryoneWouldDoIt]

i actually had no research.

 

[DocSherman]

i actually had no research.

Well, I was a clinical research coordinator who worked on collecting data for government projects. I don't know if that could officially count as research though...

I was thinking about touting that stuff as research since I dealt more with data cracking and IRB wrangling than patients during that time...

 

[ides]

A lot of these stories are super inspiring. I really needed this thread after today.

3.1 cGPA/2.9 sGPA, early 30's, currently working in a medical research lab. Been through a lot - had an awful time and bombed out with a full first semester of F's in the mid-2000s. Got back on my feet a few years later and put myself through college, missed a full year of school due to some devastating life events, re-enrolled at a third school, had to miss a term because of lack of funds, kept my demanding physical job while I took an additional full year of rigorous courses to complete prerequisites. Asked every bioscience professor I had since freshman year for research experience or a lab position - finally got one my junior year. Crushed organic chemistry out of spite. I'm right on the wire for getting auto-filtered by a lot of school as it is - I'll be taking the MCAT in April and I'm spending every waking hour preparing for it.

I was going through the AMCAS application and noticed it requires transcripts from all colleges attended, no exceptions. Ordered one from my first institution to find out that no course withdrawal was ever processed - every single F will be factored into my GPA. I called the school and explained the situation, talked to several people, nobody was able or willing to change anything. I'm crushed.

 

[Dr.Gains]

A lot of these stories are super inspiring. I really needed this thread after today.

3.1 cGPA/2.9 sGPA, early 30's, currently working in a medical research lab. Been through a lot - had an awful time and bombed out with a full first semester of F's in the mid-2000s. Got back on my feet a few years later and put myself through college, missed a full year of school due to some devastating life events, re-enrolled at a third school, had to miss a term because of lack of funds, kept my demanding physical job while I took an additional full year of rigorous courses to complete prerequisites. Asked every bioscience professor I had since freshman year for research experience or a lab position - finally got one my junior year. Crushed organic chemistry out of spite. I'm right on the wire for getting auto-filtered by a lot of school as it is - I'll be taking the MCAT in April and I'm spending every waking hour preparing for it.

I was going through the AMCAS application and noticed it requires transcripts from all colleges attended, no exceptions. Ordered one from my first institution to find out that no course withdrawal was ever processed - every single F will be factored into my GPA. I called the school and explained the situation, talked to several people, nobody was able or willing to change anything. I'm crushed.

Does your current GPA of 3.1 cGPA/2.9 sGPA factor in your Fs from your first institution?

 

[ides]

Does your current GPA of 3.1 cGPA/2.9 sGPA factor in your Fs from your first institution?

It does not. I also have something like ~230 credits, so I'm hesitant to consider something like a postbacc solely for GPA repair.

 

[Dr.Gains]

It does not. I also have something like ~230 credits, so I'm hesitant to consider something like a postbacc solely for GPA repair.

The first thing I would do is grab a GPA calculator like AMCAS GPA Calculator (Revised) .
Input every single class you've taken with the grade received and see what your actual AMCAS GPA is. The calculator also gives you a nice trend line graph of all your years throughout. If your previous 30-60 credits hours have been 3.7+, I would call formal SMP programs to get their input on your situation. Many of these programs have cutoff either a 2.7 or 3.0 but they do offer GPA waivers on a case by case scenario, you just have to prove to them that you're not the same person you once were in your earlier academic years. The way to showcase this is by having a strong upward trend (even if the cumulative GPA is overall low), a strong MCAT score and great ECs. Some great SMP programs worth while are Gtown, EVMS, BU, RFS, Drexel and maybe Tufts. DO SMPs include VCOM, LECOM, PCOM and KCUMB. In my experience they are very receptive to phone calls and are very helpful and can give you solid advice, it would be in your best interest to contact them. I would also research each SMP individually to see if it works for you.

With 230 credits your GPA might be beyond repair, for this reason an SMP might be in your best interest to get into medical school because many of them function as a backdoor into the associated medical school. It's also worth mentioning that SMPs are high risk and high reward, if you do well you have a much clearer path to get into medical school but if you perform poorly that might be the end of your journey. Remember, this is going to be a huge uphill battle, grit and perseverance will be needed to overcome these hardships. Keep us updated, we're here to support you along your journey champ.

 

[ides]

The first thing I would do is grab a GPA calculator like AMCAS GPA Calculator (Revised) .
Input every single class you've taken with the grade received and see what your actual AMCAS GPA is. The calculator also gives you a nice trend line graph of all your years throughout. If your previous 30-60 credits hours have been 3.7+, I would call formal SMP programs to get their input on your situation. Many of these programs have cutoff either a 2.7 or 3.0 but they do offer GPA waivers on a case by case scenario, you just have to prove to them that you're not the same person you once were in your earlier academic years. The way to showcase this is by having a strong upward trend (even if the cumulative GPA is overall low), a strong MCAT score and great ECs. Some great SMP programs worth while are Gtown, EVMS, BU, RFS, Drexel and maybe Tufts. DO SMPs include VCOM, LECOM, PCOM and KCUMB. In my experience they are very receptive to phone calls and are very helpful and can give you solid advice, it would be in your best interest to contact them. I would also research each SMP individually to see if it works for you.

With 230 credits your GPA might be beyond repair, for this reason an SMP might be in your best interest to get into medical school because many of them function as a backdoor into the associated medical school. It's also worth mentioning that SMPs are high risk and high reward, if you do well you have a much clearer path to get into medical school but if you perform poorly that might be the end of your journey. Remember, this is going to be a huge uphill battle, grit and perseverance will be needed to overcome these hardships. Keep us updated, we're here to support you along your journey champ.

Thanks, this is excellent advice. This whole process is super overwhelming as a nontrad without a lot of resources or knowing anyone who's gone through it.

Going to make one last attempt to get the issue resolved, if by some miracle that happens and I score well on the MCAT I'll apply this coming season. Otherwise I'll start reaching out to SMPs to explain what's going on and see what I can do to make my application to their programs more attractive. My last couple terms of college were above par but not stellar. If I need to slog through a couple years of half-time postbacc coursework just to show that upward trend, so be it.

 

[coal.under.pressure]

It does not. I also have something like ~230 credits, so I'm hesitant to consider something like a postbacc solely for GPA repair.

You are not alone in this boat ides. I halfway got through a business degree, living the business student lifestyle. C’s, D’s, some F’s, currently sitting on a 2.6 with 160 credit hours. Found inspiration and drive when I changed to biology. My sGPA is 3.6, so I’m hoping for a “let’s look into this further” from adcoms. We both need to absolutely kill the MCAT.
My only advice from being a premed for about 8 months is:
1. Look at state schools/low tier schools for ways to bypass GPA screens. For example, in my state one school let’s you pass for having 20 graduate credit hours, another let’s you pass for rural/underserved focus, and lastly even Emory has no lower limit GPA (only MCAT).
2. Early decision can be your friend to bypass some screens, each school is different
3. Own your failures, address them briefly, but focus on the personal growth that came from them in personal statement.
4. Rolling admissions add another little sliver of hope, apply early.

 

[JSReed]

Accepted last friday, so excited that I FINALLY get to post on here!! The one thing I'd love to tell everyone is that if you want to make it happen, you certainly can. It might take years and money and significant commitment. But if you want it bad enough, you'll get there eventually.

Stats/bio:

• 3.05(ish) ugpa. Ended 2nd year with a 2.4, worked my way back from that. Applied the first couple times with a sub-3, but then tacked on a few post-baccs to get past the first screen.
• 516 mcat (130/127/131/128)
• 3.5+ at a highly ranked SMP
• Applied 4x post-smp (had a super tough time with that 3.0, even at my state schools)
• Shadowing 150ish hours, clinical volunteering/translating 100ish hours, 1.5 years of lab work (2 presentations)
• In the meantime, got an MPH and used that to work in global health (mostly HIV). Got to work on some innovative projects, lived abroad, led multimillion-dollar projects, and got to be part of the history of a nation.
• Picked up triathlon and endurance racing in the meantime. In case med school is literally a marathon, I'm gunna crush it.

 

[EcstaticBroccoli]

Accepted last friday, so excited that I FINALLY get to post on here!! The one thing I'd love to tell everyone is that if you want to make it happen, you certainly can. It might take years and money and significant commitment. But if you want it bad enough, you'll get there eventually.

Stats/bio:

• 3.05(ish) ugpa. Ended 2nd year with a 2.4, worked my way back from that.
• 516 mcat (130/127/131/128)
• 3.5+ at a highly ranked SMP
• Applied 4x post-smp (had a super tough time with that 3.0, even at my state schools)
• Shadowing 150ish hours, clinical volunteering/translating 100ish hours, 1.5 years of lab work (2 presentations)
• In the meantime, got an MPH and used that to work in global health (mostly HIV). Got to work on some innovative projects, lived abroad, led multimillion-dollar projects, and got to be part of the history of a nation.
• Picked up triathlon and endurance racing in the meantime. In case med school is literally a marathon, I'm gunna crush it.

Congrats man. Just wondering if you were getting rejected at D.O schools or did you just aim for MD during those 4 application cycles?

 

[JSReed]

Congrats man. Just wondering if you getting rejected at D.O schools or did you just aim for MD during those 4 application cycles?

Both. Despite having a DO letter, had way more luck at MD than DO until this cycle.