Biden Out of Race

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It's remarkable that the same MAGA (aka the party-formerly-known-as-Republican) cohort that absolutely soiled itself so hard over a plan to hire IRS bureaucrats to check tax returns that the smell still lingers over most of the continental United States, is now cheering a massive expansion of a semi-anonymous police force tasked with actually grabbing people off the street.
How is this remarkable? I’ve personally dealt with taxes in the past 6 months as have everyone I know. I have yet to hear of an ICE agent making trouble in my whole region.

The IRS randomly audits law abiding citizens, requiring their full life story and if you made any mistakes (that they decided you made), then they can charge you whatever they want or take whatever they want. It sure feels draconian that they can do this to anyone and everyone any time they want. Even police can’t stop me randomly for my papers if I’m going about my daily life.

If the IRS is so important then they can use AI to streamline their processes. If they’re captured by the TurboTax people because of lobbying then I have no sympathy.
 
Russia is accepting some visas.

Geez, man, these refugees are WALKING to our borders. They're not hopping on their iPads, applying for a Visa online, and then booking a flight to Russia with a layover for wine and pasta in Italy.

I read your posts and can't get this XKCD cartoon out of my head -

keyboard_mash_2x.png


Anti woke visa. But they aren’t exactly giving away any handouts. You gotta support yourself

Huh, who'd ever think that refugees wouldn't be able to support themselves!?

I look forward to a response typed with your normal human hands!
 
There is legal immigration and illegal immigration.

And even legal immigrants here need to be on their best behavior (not even minor crimes).

The Mexican undocumented illegal crossings the borders didn’t really start till the late 1960s

And guess why it happened (the illegal entry into the USA). It’s because the Democrats signed the 1965 Immigration and Nationality Act.

The law like most democrat passed laws in theory at the time (just like the amt) was meant to be anti discriminatory and focus on immigrants who can bring the best labor and means to this country

That’s why I try to criticize your holistic outlook on intentions vs real life execution.

That immigration law made it even harder for Mexicans to enter the USA legally. That’s the irony of all these riots and protest we currently see. A democratically passed law that has back fired over the decades and democrats blaming republicans for laws democrats passed.

The freakin irony folks. Laws passed have unintended consequences.

Yes, laws that restrict immigration made little sense back then and they make little sense now. But given that the GOP consistently runs an anti immigration platform, it just goes to show how dumb they are for not learning from mistakes made 60 years ago.
 
There is legal immigration and illegal immigration.

And even legal immigrants here need to be on their best behavior (not even minor crimes).

The Mexican undocumented illegal crossings the borders didn’t really start till the late 1960s

And guess why it happened (the illegal entry into the USA). It’s because the Democrats signed the 1965 Immigration and Nationality Act.

The law like most democrat passed laws in theory at the time (just like the amt) was meant to be anti discriminatory and focus on immigrants who can bring the best labor and means to this country

That’s why I try to criticize your holistic outlook on intentions vs real life execution.

That immigration law made it even harder for Mexicans to enter the USA legally. That’s the irony of all these riots and protest we currently see. A democratically passed law that has back fired over the decades and democrats blaming republicans for laws democrats passed.

The freakin irony folks. Laws passed have unintended consequences.



That law made it possible for me to move to the USA. And your link isn’t saying what you are saying. They are arguing for less restrictive immigration policies, more porous borders, and less border enforcement.

“The enforcement binge had an important unintended effect. Normally, immigrants move back and forth across the border, eventually going home permanently in many cases. The crackdown encouraged those who made it to the United States to stay put. Many of those who stayed decided to become citizens. And citizens can bring in relatives to become citizens. The result: The number of legal immigrants from Mexico rose from less than a half a million in the 1960s to nearly three million in the 1990s.

Massey and Pren argue that illegal immigrants in the United States should be offered various paths to citizenship and other forms of legal residency. Americans, they say, need to recognize that immigration is often a circular process, not a one-way street.“
 
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How is this remarkable?

Because conservatives/libertarians used to be small-government advocates who were very sensitive about expanding the government's ability to monitor people or throw its weight around.

Very recently, even the notion of adding office workers, working via phone and postal mail and email, to audit tax returns to correct mistakes and catch tax fraud (a crime) was viewed as abhorrent. Terrible government oppression leading us ever closer to authoritarianism!

Yet actually adding 1000s of uniformed (or even un-uniformed) police-adjacent enforcers to work the streets and arrest and detain people, is supported. Cheered.

You don't find that 180 remarkable?

I’ve personally dealt with taxes in the past 6 months as have everyone I know. I have yet to hear of an ICE agent making trouble in my whole region.

How do you propose the state enforce the tax code, and collect taxes fairly?

Is there a better mechanism than the current process of reviewing submitted tax returns using software to flag higher risk returns, and then having trained people manually check them?

Why don't you want tax laws enforced?

The IRS randomly audits law abiding citizens, requiring their full life story and if you made any mistakes (that they decided you made), then they can charge you whatever they want or take whatever they want. It sure feels draconian that they can do this to anyone and everyone any time they want.

Does it feel draconian that the police can pull over anyone and everyone they want and arbitrarily decide to give speeding tickets or mere warnings? They can even make you get out of your car and do a sobriety test.

Even police can’t stop me randomly for my papers if I’m going about my daily life.

You think they can't? You think a cop can't decide you rolled that stop sign and demand your papers?

What do you think ICE is doing if not stopping people (going about their daily lives) if they think they don't have papers, and demanding them?

Now, I'm not reflexively opposed to ICE doing its work, or even expanding ICE to better enforce the law. Or cops enforcing traffic laws. I do object to the masked anonymous nature of some of the ICE units, and I'm unconvinced we need so many more of them, with such a massive budget. (Hasn't Trump already totally completely fixed the border issue and deported record numbers of people with existing resources?)

If the IRS is so important then they can use AI to streamline their processes. If they’re captured by the TurboTax people because of lobbying then I have no sympathy.

AI may well be a useful tool for the IRS, and I would support its use in the hands of the IRS office workers that were going to be hired before MAGA lost all sphincter tone.

The tax preparer lobby is awful and harmful. No argument there. I wonder whose big beautiful bill is going to eliminate DirectFile?
 
Because conservatives/libertarians used to be small-government advocates who were very sensitive about expanding the government's ability to monitor people or throw its weight around.

Very recently, even the notion of adding office workers, working via phone and postal mail and email, to audit tax returns to correct mistakes and catch tax fraud (a crime) was viewed as abhorrent. Terrible government oppression leading us ever closer to authoritarianism!

Yet actually adding 1000s of uniformed (or even un-uniformed) police-adjacent enforcers to work the streets and arrest and detain people, is supported. Cheered.

You don't find that 180 remarkable?



How do you propose the state enforce the tax code, and collect taxes fairly?

Is there a better mechanism than the current process of reviewing submitted tax returns using software to flag higher risk returns, and then having trained people manually check them?

Why don't you want tax laws enforced?



Does it feel draconian that the police can pull over anyone and everyone they want and arbitrarily decide to give speeding tickets or mere warnings? They can even make you get out of your car and do a sobriety test.



You think they can't? You think a cop can't decide you rolled that stop sign and demand your papers?

What do you think ICE is doing if not stopping people (going about their daily lives) if they think they don't have papers, and demanding them?

Now, I'm not reflexively opposed to ICE doing its work, or even expanding ICE to better enforce the law. Or cops enforcing traffic laws. I do object to the masked anonymous nature of some of the ICE units, and I'm unconvinced we need so many more of them, with such a massive budget. (Hasn't Trump already totally completely fixed the border issue and deported record numbers of people with existing resources?)



AI may well be a useful tool for the IRS, and I would support its use in the hands of the IRS office workers that were going to be hired before MAGA lost all sphincter tone.

The tax preparer lobby is awful and harmful. No argument there. I wonder whose big beautiful bill is going to eliminate DirectFile?
Instead of all the self-righteous “what about-ism??”, how about some “intellectual honesty” (and, yes, I pointed out/what-aboutism’ed this same issue 2 pages ago.)??

Republicans don’t like taxes. They have often shouted “Abolish the IRS!”. With that in mind, it’s pretty obvious they would object to 87,000 extra IRS Agents.

Democrats (despite their blather about “We need comprehensive immigration reform!”) seem to think that massive illegal immigration is ok (Ban ICE!! Nobody is illegal!). It’s obvious to everyone else that they have no desire/intention of enforcing the immigration laws that are on the books (We ALL saw what happened from 2017-2020), short of some 3-5 year-long bureaucratic process that also considers whether they have a family/a job/a puppy dog/etc/etc. With THAT in mind, it’s pretty obvious THEY would object to 10,000 extra ICE agents.

Blah, blah, blah….. “Bipartisan immigration reform! Republicans wouldn’t pass it!”

Trump has proven in 6 months, that “bipartisan immigration reform” (read: “amnesty”, NOT “enforcement”) was NOT needed. All that was needed was some folks who were wiiling to ENFORCE the law, rather than IGNORE it.

The real question is, “What happens when another Democrat gets elected??”. Do we let in another 10-20 million?? Come on… give me a NUMBER. How many more folks does the USA have to let in the back door of illegal immigration, in the name of cheap labor, or “asylum”, or “guilt”?? 50 million?? 100 million??

How many IRS agents have Republicans threatened to “doxx”?? Are assaults on IRS agents up, over the last few years?? Hmmm…

I can be honest about how Republicans feel about taxes. Why can’t some of you, at least, be honest about how you feel about illegal immigration????
 
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Because conservatives/libertarians used to be small-government advocates who were very sensitive about expanding the government's ability to monitor people or throw its weight around.

Very recently, even the notion of adding office workers, working via phone and postal mail and email, to audit tax returns to correct mistakes and catch tax fraud (a crime) was viewed as abhorrent. Terrible government oppression leading us ever closer to authoritarianism!

Yet actually adding 1000s of uniformed (or even un-uniformed) police-adjacent enforcers to work the streets and arrest and detain people, is supported. Cheered.

You don't find that 180 remarkable?



How do you propose the state enforce the tax code, and collect taxes fairly?

Is there a better mechanism than the current process of reviewing submitted tax returns using software to flag higher risk returns, and then having trained people manually check them?

Why don't you want tax laws enforced?



Does it feel draconian that the police can pull over anyone and everyone they want and arbitrarily decide to give speeding tickets or mere warnings? They can even make you get out of your car and do a sobriety test.



You think they can't? You think a cop can't decide you rolled that stop sign and demand your papers?

What do you think ICE is doing if not stopping people (going about their daily lives) if they think they don't have papers, and demanding them?

Now, I'm not reflexively opposed to ICE doing its work, or even expanding ICE to better enforce the law. Or cops enforcing traffic laws. I do object to the masked anonymous nature of some of the ICE units, and I'm unconvinced we need so many more of them, with such a massive budget. (Hasn't Trump already totally completely fixed the border issue and deported record numbers of people with existing resources?)



AI may well be a useful tool for the IRS, and I would support its use in the hands of the IRS office workers that were going to be hired before MAGA lost all sphincter tone.

The tax preparer lobby is awful and harmful. No argument there. I wonder whose big beautiful bill is going to eliminate DirectFile?
Because conservatives/libertarians used to be small-government advocates who were very sensitive about expanding the government's ability to monitor people or throw its weight around.

Very recently, even the notion of adding office workers, working via phone and postal mail and email, to audit tax returns to correct mistakes and catch tax fraud (a crime) was viewed as abhorrent. Terrible government oppression leading us ever closer to authoritarianism!

Yet actually adding 1000s of uniformed (or even un-uniformed) police-adjacent enforcers to work the streets and arrest and detain people, is supported. Cheered.

You don't find that 180 remarkable?



How do you propose the state enforce the tax code, and collect taxes fairly?

Is there a better mechanism than the current process of reviewing submitted tax returns using software to flag higher risk returns, and then having trained people manually check them?

Why don't you want tax laws enforced?



Does it feel draconian that the police can pull over anyone and everyone they want and arbitrarily decide to give speeding tickets or mere warnings? They can even make you get out of your car and do a sobriety test.



You think they can't? You think a cop can't decide you rolled that stop sign and demand your papers?

What do you think ICE is doing if not stopping people (going about their daily lives) if they think they don't have papers, and demanding them?

Now, I'm not reflexively opposed to ICE doing its work, or even expanding ICE to better enforce the law. Or cops enforcing traffic laws. I do object to the masked anonymous nature of some of the ICE units, and I'm unconvinced we need so many more of them, with such a massive budget. (Hasn't Trump already totally completely fixed the border issue and deported record numbers of people with existing resources?)



AI may well be a useful tool for the IRS, and I would support its use in the hands of the IRS office workers that were going to be hired before MAGA lost all sphincter tone.

The tax preparer lobby is awful and harmful. No argument there. I wonder whose big beautiful bill is going to eliminate DirectFile?
You’re just making up a bunch of scenarios that are in no way comparable to what the IRS does.

They actually randomly select people for audit. They require that you fulfill their requests even when they have no basis for suspicion, ie probable cause.

If cops get caught giving speeding tickets to people who aren’t speeding or doing suspicious things, they get reprimanded eventually. That’s just a day at the office for an irs auditor.

Whether or not a police officer deigns to enforce rules on you properly is completely different from them randomly asking for your documents with no reason given whatsoever.

Not to mention I don’t have to comply with police if they have no probable cause, and they’ll be forced to prove I was doing something to hold me if they ask me for my identity while I’m out running laps. Not so much for the IRS.

Additionally, a field sobriety test is a hell of a lot less invasive than an audit. You might as well say a cologuard is the same as a colonoscopy.

I didn’t say anything about the irs flagging process and review process. What irks me about them is that they do some audits completely at random with no recourse for those audited to establish the IRS “norms”. To me it’s a clearly unconstitutional invasion of privacy if there’s no suspicion of wrongdoing.

As for how I’d like them to collect taxes, I’d like them to synthesize the information they ALREADY HAVE to tell people how much is owed. The fact that they can’t do this on their own in the Information Age to me means they’re attempting to entrap people into mistakes by having an overly complicated system.

They simultaneously pretend that the biggest problems are the complex tax returns from the super wealthy while they write the code themselves that benefits the super wealthy. How the heck do you expect people to believe that they need money to go after these super wealthy people, when the IRS themselves created the problem of overly complex tax code and loopholes?
 
You’re just making up a bunch of scenarios that are in no way comparable to what the IRS does.

They actually randomly select people for audit. They require that you fulfill their requests even when they have no basis for suspicion, ie probable cause.

If cops get caught giving speeding tickets to people who aren’t speeding or doing suspicious things, they get reprimanded eventually. That’s just a day at the office for an irs auditor.

Whether or not a police officer deigns to enforce rules on you properly is completely different from them randomly asking for your documents with no reason given whatsoever.

Not to mention I don’t have to comply with police if they have no probable cause, and they’ll be forced to prove I was doing something to hold me if they ask me for my identity while I’m out running laps. Not so much for the IRS.

Additionally, a field sobriety test is a hell of a lot less invasive than an audit. You might as well say a cologuard is the same as a colonoscopy.

I didn’t say anything about the irs flagging process and review process. What irks me about them is that they do some audits completely at random with no recourse for those audited to establish the IRS “norms”. To me it’s a clearly unconstitutional invasion of privacy if there’s no suspicion of wrongdoing.

As for how I’d like them to collect taxes, I’d like them to synthesize the information they ALREADY HAVE to tell people how much is owed. The fact that they can’t do this on their own in the Information Age to me means they’re attempting to entrap people into mistakes by having an overly complicated system.

They simultaneously pretend that the biggest problems are the complex tax returns from the super wealthy while they write the code themselves that benefits the super wealthy. How the heck do you expect people to believe that they need money to go after these super wealthy people, when the IRS themselves created the problem of overly complex tax code and loopholes?
Exactly. When ICE starts showing up on my street for “random citizenship audits”, rather than “high value targets” (construction worksites, Home Depot parking lots, known residences, court hearings), then we can all have a “discussion”…

(And, yes, I have been subjected to an IRS “ID Verification” audit, where I had to go to the local IRS office and “prove” I was “me”, with multiple forms of ID and documentation. No, I didn’t stage a protest or hire a civil rights attorney. Where’s my “civil rights violation” cookie???)
 
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Instead of all the self-righteous “what about-ism??”, how about some “intellectual honesty” (and, yes, I pointed out/what-aboutism’ed this same issue 2 pages ago.)??

Republicans don’t like taxes. They have often shouted “Abolish the IRS!”. With that in mind, it’s pretty obvious they would object to 87,000 extra IRS Agents.

Democrats (despite their blather about “We need comprehensive immigration reform!”) seem to think that massive illegal immigration is ok (Ban ICE!! Nobody is illegal!). It’s obvious to everyone else that they have no desire/intention of enforcing the immigration laws that are on the books (We ALL saw what happened from 2017-2020), short of some 3-5 year-long bureaucratic process that also considers whether they have a family/a job/a puppy dog/etc/etc. With THAT in mind, it’s pretty obvious THEY would object to 10,000 extra ICE agents.

Blah, blah, blah….. “Bipartisan immigration reform! Republicans wouldn’t pass it!”

Trump has proven in 6 months, that “bipartisan immigration reform” (read: “amnesty”, NOT “enforcement”) was NOT needed. All that was needed was some folks who were wiiling to ENFORCE the law, rather than IGNORE it.

The real question is, “What happens when another Democrat gets elected??”. Do we let in another 10-20 million?? Come on… give me a NUMBER. How many more folks does the USA have to let in the back door of illegal immigration, in the name of cheap labor, or “asylum”, or “guilt”?? 50 million?? 100 million??

How many IRS agents have Republicans threatened to “doxx”?? Are assaults on IRS agents up, over the last few years?? Hmmm…

I can be honest about how Republicans feel about taxes. Why can’t some of you, at least, be honest about how you feel about illegal immigration????

I hate taxes too. Let’s just stop paying them. Let’s fire all the IRS agents because we don’t like taxes. Yay Republican land. Let’s just go live in Candyland. On the way to candyland can we stop at Home Depot and get another 10 million illegals and send them to prison wherever we want? Sweet thx.
 
Exactly. When ICE starts showing up on my street for “random citizenship audits”, rather than “high value targets” (construction worksites, Home Depot parking lots, known residences, court hearings), then we can all have a “discussion”…

(And, yes, I have been subjected to an IRS “ID Verification” audit, where I had to go to the local IRS office and “prove” I was “me”, with multiple forms of ID and documentation. No, I didn’t stage a protest or hire a civil rights attorney. Where’s my “civil rights violation” cookie???)

Totally Republican brain comment. ‘Hey I haven’t seen any ICE agents so as long as I’m personally unaffected it’s all good!!’ ‘BUT I DO PAY TAXES OMGERD IT SUCKS GET RID OF TAXES!!’

also I love how daddy Trump said ‘14 million criminal illegals here we gotta get em out!!!’ and just a few months later the maga line becomes ‘let’s go shop Home Depot for illegals to send to Sudan YAY MAGA brain!!’
 
I didn’t say anything about the irs flagging process and review process. What irks me about them is that they do some audits completely at random with no recourse for those audited to establish the IRS “norms”. To me it’s a clearly unconstitutional invasion of privacy if there’s no suspicion of wrongdoing.
That's a fair criticism.

It seems your only real criticism of the IRS is that they do random audits. I could get behind eliminating those, and limiting audits to returns flagged by software as incorrect or higher risk.


I'm just a little skeptical by default of the IRS victim trope (innocent honest tax filer who made a simple mistake! criminal charges!) when approximately 40% of any financial thread on this forum involves varying degrees of obvious tax fraud.

(Granted, most of that is from aneftp.)

I can't help but believe most opposition to tax code enforcement is coming from people who are cheating on their taxes to some degree. As a guy who isn't renting part of my house to a business I own that pays my kids and my wife to manage my 1099 locums work, while I watch movies on a home theater system I wrote off because I checked my work email on that screen once ... I'm just not the least bit concerned about 87 or even 87,000 IRS employees reviewing tax returns.

But anonymous masked plainclothes pseudo-cops arresting and detaining people? Yeah, that seems to be a little more concerning.
 
Exactly. When ICE starts showing up on my street for “random citizenship audits”, rather than “high value targets” (construction worksites, Home Depot parking lots, known residences, court hearings), then we can all have a “discussion”…

(And, yes, I have been subjected to an IRS “ID Verification” audit, where I had to go to the local IRS office and “prove” I was “me”, with multiple forms of ID and documentation. No, I didn’t stage a protest or hire a civil rights attorney. Where’s my “civil rights violation” cookie???)
Why are we so desperate to remove day laborers? I am looking for the lines of white folks salivating for these jobs..so far no luck
 
I hate taxes too. Let’s just stop paying them. Let’s fire all the IRS agents because we don’t like taxes. Yay Republican land. Let’s just go live in Candyland. On the way to candyland can we stop at Home Depot and get another 10 million illegals and send them to prison wherever we want? Sweet thx.
To quote George Will—you are “a pyromaniac in a field of strawmen…”
 
Why are we so desperate to remove day laborers? I am looking for the lines of white folks salivating for these jobs..so far no luck
So how many more do we need? 25 million more?? I’m not asking for an elaborate discussion. Just a number between zero and 100 million?? It’ll take you 3 seconds to reply, instead of a snarky 5 minute strawman response, like Southpaw.

There’s a reason why you don’t see as many school kids going into painting/masonry/carpentry. Illegal immigration has decimated the pay in those fields.

Plumbing/electricians/HVAC are highly regulated, and have not suffered the same fate.
 
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Totally Republican brain comment. ‘Hey I haven’t seen any ICE agents so as long as I’m personally unaffected it’s all good!!’ ‘BUT I DO PAY TAXES OMGERD IT SUCKS GET RID OF TAXES!!’

also I love how daddy Trump said ‘14 million criminal illegals here we gotta get em out!!!’ and just a few months later the maga line becomes ‘let’s go shop Home Depot for illegals to send to Sudan YAY MAGA brain!!’
Sure…. The ICE Agents can just sit in air-conditioned offices, and wait for immigration law violators to come to THEM.

Is “illegal immigration”, ILLEGAL, or not?? A simple yes or no will suffice….
 
To quote George Will—you are “a pyromaniac in a field of strawmen…”

Time spent arguing with MAGA is time wasted. I’ll never get it back. You’re all arguing in bad faith. You’ll squirm, bend, and stretch your beliefs or moral compass however needed based on Trump.

The reality is if some Dem brought in the masked goons it’d obviously be you screaming and pulling your hair out about government overreach and how it’s time for the people to push back against this obviously tyrannical government.

But since Trump does it you’re like ‘okay it’s Monday’.
 
Sure…. The ICE Agents can just sit in air-conditioned offices, and wait for immigration law violators to come to THEM.

Is “illegal immigration”, ILLEGAL, or not?? A simple yes or no will suffice….

Illegal. Easy. Also pointless. Now address the inability to find the purported 14 million criminals daddy said were here. Oh they’re all at Home Depot buying building/painting/landscaping supplies for THEIR JOB?? CRIMINAL!
 
So how many more do we need? 25 million more?? I’m not asking for an elaborate discussion. Just a number between zero and 100 million?? It’ll take you 3 seconds to reply, instead of a snarky 5 minute strawman response, like Southpaw.

There’s a reason why you don’t see as many school kids going into painting/masonry/carpentry. Illegal immigration has decimated the pay in those fields.

Plumbing/electricians/HVAC are highly regulated, and have not suffered the same fate.


Sure…. The ICE Agents can just sit in air-conditioned offices, and wait for immigration law violators to come to THEM.

Is “illegal immigration”, ILLEGAL, or not?? A simple yes or no will suffice.


Ask Trump how many. It’s simple. I imagine the farmers will vouch for every single one of “their illegals”. Maybe you can call the White House in protest.

 
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Time spent arguing with MAGA is time wasted. I’ll never get it back. You’re all arguing in bad faith. You’ll squirm, bend, and stretch your beliefs or moral compass however needed based on Trump.

The reality is if some Dem brought in the masked goons it’d obviously be you screaming and pulling your hair out about government overreach and how it’s time for the people to push back against this obviously tyrannical government.

But since Trump does it you’re like ‘okay it’s Monday’.
You made a reply full of nothing but falsehoods and “strawmen” , and then claim that I am the one “arguing in bad faith”???

Google the word “projection”…
 
Ask Trump how many. It’s simple. I imagine the farmers will vouch for every single one of “their illegals”.


Well those illegals are fine because, well Trump. Yes they illegally entered and this is ILLEGAL meaning against the law and the masked goons should send them to Sudan, but if daddy says they stay well then they stay.

See daddy decides who stays or goes because illegal is relative based on, well, daddy.
 
Ask Trump.


Illegal. Easy. Also pointless. Now address the inability to find the purported 14 million criminals daddy said were here. Oh they’re all at Home Depot buying building/painting/landscaping supplies for THEIR JOB?? CRIMINAL!


More are being done by ICE, rather than CBP, now… (labor intensive)
 
Well those illegals are fine because, well Trump. Yes they illegally entered and this is ILLEGAL meaning against the law and the masked goons should send them to Sudan, but if daddy says they stay well then they stay.

See daddy decides who stays or goes because illegal is relative based on, well, daddy.


What part of “illegal” does daddy Trump not understand? 😉
 
What part of “illegal” does daddy Trump not understand? 😉
My answer is “illegal is illegal”.

Trump’s answer is probably “I’m a pragmatic politician”.

Now that we’ve cleared that up, what’s YOUR answer?
 
So how many more do we need? 25 million more?? I’m not asking for an elaborate discussion. Just a number between zero and 100 million?? It’ll take you 3 seconds to reply, instead of a snarky 5 minute strawman response, like Southpaw.

There’s a reason why you don’t see as many school kids going into painting/masonry/carpentry. Illegal immigration has decimated the pay in those fields.

Plumbing/electricians/HVAC are highly regulated, and have not suffered the same fate.

hahaha what dude? have you ever DONE any of these things?

Painting has lower wages because you can smoke meth all day and still paint. That was literally the summer job that buddies of mine would do in college with 0 experience.

Those are physical fields with lower barriers to entry and a high workforce turnover (at least painting and what I'm assuming you mean by basic masonry stuff). Employers in those fields have been very clear that there are literally not enough workers willing to do those jobs in the US without immigration. You're right that pay is relatively low and I'm sure if you increase pay enough, you'll get some takers but we can't have it all ways in this country. So, yeah, if you want to pay twice as much for your house to be painted or re-roofed or pay twice as much for strawberries or whatever, I'm sure there's SOME price where US citizens are willing to go work out in the sun all day for 8 hours in 95 degrees.

Not sure what you mean by hordes of illegal immigrants in "carpentry".
 
Yeah, when you got nothing else, resorting to personal attacks is not a surprise
….

Dude I’m not attacking you personally. We are on page 299. I just want you to fess up and acknowledge that you don’t be even believe the words you type. It’s absurd.

You say illegal as in you want it acknowledged it’s breaking the law. And of course if asked how that should be enforced you’d respond ‘deport them all… I said illegal!!. Because you’d want people to believe you at your word.

But you don’t even believe it. At least have the courage to admit that. If they’re all here illegally then have the courage and fortitude to stick with that and say they should all be gone. Every single illegal immigrant should be deported. I’d at least respect you for that.

However you don’t believe that. Trump won’t enforce that. The American economy wouldn’t tolerate that. Because everyone who voted Trump stills needs their lawn mowed, their house built, their walls painted, their swim pool taken care of, etc etc.

Is it reasonable to get the criminals out? YES. DO THAT. Is it reasonable to close the border? YES! Is it reasonable to provide an actual realistic path to citizenship! YES! (Trump won’t…they’re brown not white).

But shopping the Home Depot or Lowes for illegals months into his administration after saying there are 14 million illegal criminals here is just lame and playing into the MAGA law dog wet dream.
 
The reality is if some Dem brought in the masked goons it’d obviously be you screaming and pulling your hair out about government overreach and how it’s time for the people to push back against this obviously tyrannical government.
Don't have to look any further than this page in this thread to see someone up in arms about IRS agents enforcing tax law from a cubicle, while defending armed and masked ICE agents enforcing immigration law in the streets.
 
Don't have to look any further than this page in this thread to see someone up in arms about IRS agents enforcing tax law from a cubicle, while defending armed and masked ICE agents enforcing immigration law in the streets.
Speaking of IRS and government. Have you tried calling the IRS recently. I just spent 2 hours this morning. Hung up twice after long waits. Finally got to live agent. It's very frustrating. Just for a new eftps PIN that they accidentally deleted is what the agent told me. That's why I couldn't pay them.

Government at its finest. And it's for the business not my personal side in case you try to suggest IRS direct pay (which itself had some issues the day before the tax filing deadline.
 
So how many more do we need? 25 million more?? I’m not asking for an elaborate discussion. Just a number between zero and 100 million?? It’ll take you 3 seconds to reply, instead of a snarky 5 minute strawman response, like Southpaw.

There’s a reason why you don’t see as many school kids going into painting/masonry/carpentry. Illegal immigration has decimated the pay in those fields.

Plumbing/electricians/HVAC are highly regulated, and have not suffered the same fate.
We need as many as the labor markets require. Let the free market decide. The population is getting older..so we need more young workers.

School kids don't go into carpentry jobs because our culture emphasizes college over the trades. Just ask 99% of parents, and they all want their kids to go to college over a job cleaning hotel rooms.

Are you prepared to double minimum wage in order to get white folks to do these jobs? Maga goes ape **** whenever dems try to increase it...arguing it will raise costs and drive out business.

The gop strategy is to create an acute labor shortage in hopes of white kids suddenly wanting to pick strawberries in 100 degree heat instead of going to college? But then the GOP refuses to raise minimum wage. Goodluck with that.

The reason immigrants do these jobs is because its far better than living in slums in Nicaragua. The reason white folks refuse to do these jobs is that its much better getting an education in philosophy in an air conditioned classroom.

Not to mention the fact that immigrants have lower crime rates, higher small business/job creation rates, are younger and have more kids than natives (all good things).
 
That's a fair criticism.

It seems your only real criticism of the IRS is that they do random audits. I could get behind eliminating those, and limiting audits to returns flagged by software as incorrect or higher risk.


I'm just a little skeptical by default of the IRS victim trope (innocent honest tax filer who made a simple mistake! criminal charges!) when approximately 40% of any financial thread on this forum involves varying degrees of obvious tax fraud.

(Granted, most of that is from aneftp.)

I can't help but believe most opposition to tax code enforcement is coming from people who are cheating on their taxes to some degree. As a guy who isn't renting part of my house to a business I own that pays my kids and my wife to manage my 1099 locums work, while I watch movies on a home theater system I wrote off because I checked my work email on that screen once ... I'm just not the least bit concerned about 87 or even 87,000 IRS employees reviewing tax returns.

But anonymous masked plainclothes pseudo-cops arresting and detaining people? Yeah, that seems to be a little more concerning.
I think you’re mistaken on how Americans seen the irs. And it isn’t just tax cheats, of which I am not.

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hahaha what dude? have you ever DONE any of these things?

Painting has lower wages because you can smoke meth all day and still paint. That was literally the summer job that buddies of mine would do in college with 0 experience.

Those are physical fields with lower barriers to entry and a high workforce turnover (at least painting and what I'm assuming you mean by basic masonry stuff). Employers in those fields have been very clear that there are literally not enough workers willing to do those jobs in the US without immigration. You're right that pay is relatively low and I'm sure if you increase pay enough, you'll get some takers but we can't have it all ways in this country. So, yeah, if you want to pay twice as much for your house to be painted or re-roofed or pay twice as much for strawberries or whatever, I'm sure there's SOME price where US citizens are willing to go work out in the sun all day for 8 hours in 95 degrees.

Not sure what you mean by hordes of illegal immigrants in "carpentry".
My uncle was a house painter for 45 years. He was luckily capable of doing “high-end” work, so was able to maintain work by doing “high-end” jobs in Highland/University Park, Lakewood, North Dallas. He simply could not compete on the lower and middle-end, due to competition/undercutting from illegal alien labor, beginning in the late-80’s/early 90’s. He worked alone, or with a single partner.

My aunt was an electrician. She didn’t have that issue (low wage competition).

Another uncle started as a painter, and transitioned into GC. Yes, his subs hired PLENTY of illegal aliens.

“Not sure what you mean by hordes of illegal immigrants in "carpentry". (YOUR quote)

Dude, tell me you’ve never driven by a residential construction site, without telling me you’ve never driven by a residential construction site….. Who do YOU think is framing those houses??
 
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Sure…. The ICE Agents can just sit in air-conditioned offices, and wait for immigration law violators to come to THEM.

Is “illegal immigration”, ILLEGAL, or not?? A simple yes or no will suffice….
So you think we needed to establish the largest national police force in the nation at enormous expense to immediately accomplish this mission by mass enforcement with indiscriminate arrests of everyone regardless of how minor or remote the offense? That seems like a reasonable solution to you that you agree is worth 150 billion and that no better use for that amount of funding could exist?
 
I think you’re mistaken on how Americans seen the irs. And it isn’t just tax cheats, of which I am not.

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Nobody likes paying taxes. But....


"Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society" is attributed to Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., Republican U.S. Supreme Court Justice. This quote emphasizes the essential role of taxes in funding public services and infrastructure necessary for a functioning society. It suggests that taxes are not merely a financial burden, but rather a necessary contribution to the collective good.
 
So you think we needed to establish the largest national police force in the nation at enormous expense to immediately accomplish this mission by mass enforcement with indiscriminate arrests of everyone regardless of how minor or remote the offense? That seems like a reasonable solution to you that you agree is worth 150 billion and that no better use for that amount of funding could exist?
Sure.

Or do you suggest that we essentially “encourage” the other 7 billion folks on Planet Earth, to come here, illegally?

Traffic offenses are “minor/remote” offenses, yet EVERY municipal/county/state police force in the nation enforces them. If everyone ignores them, because nobody enforces them, does that become a “serious” problem, or is it still a “minor offense”??
 
Sure.

Or do you suggest that we essentially “encourage” the other 7 billion folks on Planet Earth, to come here, illegally?

Traffic offenses are “minor/remote” offenses, yet EVERY municipal/county/state police force in the nation enforces them. If everyone ignores them, because nobody enforces them, does that become a “serious” problem, or is it still a “minor offense”??
My muni barely has any traffic enforcement. If they wanted to tax me some astronomical sum to put a police officer every single mile to do so I would say that idea is ****ing terrible and that I would rather that money go to schools or to get rid of the homeless or something else.

Also that strawman you conquered is impressive but try again. We dont have billions of illegal immigrants from all over the world for many reasons which I am sure if you actually thought about you could think of some too.
 
My muni barely has any traffic enforcement. If they wanted to tax me some astronomical sum to put a police officer every single mile to do so I would say that idea is ****ing terrible and that I would rather that money go to schools or to get rid of the homeless or something else.

Also that strawman you conquered is impressive but try again. We dont have billions of illegal immigrants from all over the world for many reasons which I am sure if you actually thought about you could think of some too.
Well, we got 20-30 million of them. Would 20-30 million more, encouraged by lax enforcement, be enough?? It’s “not about the number”, until, eventually, you’ve encouraged enough lawlessness, that it IS a big number. Plenty of Asian/African/European folks got the message, from 2017-2020, that the gate was open. Don’t tell me the message wasn’t out, around the World, that getting one foot over the Border, and screaming “asylum”, wasn’t a way to get in.
 
My uncle was a house painter for 45 years. He was luckily capable of doing “high-end” work, so was able to maintain work by doing “high-end” jobs in Highland/University Park, Lakewood, North Dallas. He simply could not compete on the lower and middle-end, due to competition/undercutting from illegal alien labor, beginning in the late-80’s/early 90’s. He worked alone, or with a single partner.

My aunt was an electrician. She didn’t have that issue (low wage competition).

Another uncle started as a painter, and transitioned into GC. Yes, his subs hired PLENTY of illegal aliens.

“Not sure what you mean by hordes of illegal immigrants in "carpentry". (YOUR quote)

Dude, tell me you’ve never driven by a residential construction site, without telling me you’ve never driven by a residential construction site….. Who do YOU think is framing those houses??

So you mean framing. That's not exactly fine "carpentry".

Also ah the good old snippy stupid "tell me you've never done X without telling me you've never done X" old people trying to be cool like the young kids....yes sir I've certainly been present on a residential construction site haha.

I'm not debating that they hire tons of undocumented immigrants. The debate is whether THAT is the thing that drives wages down (debatable), whether there's even another available labor force to take over if we deported all these workers and, even if that's the case, would the US economy tolerate for instance 2x as expensive produce if you had to pay people (who have other job options) 25 bucks an hour to go out and pick strawberries in the california sun.

The MAGAs were already complaining about Bidenflation but don't seem to have any path whatsoever to increasing legal immigration.
 
Nobody likes paying taxes. But....


"Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society" is attributed to Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., Republican U.S. Supreme Court Justice. This quote emphasizes the essential role of taxes in funding public services and infrastructure necessary for a functioning society. It suggests that taxes are not merely a financial burden, but rather a necessary contribution to the collective good.
What’s missing there is that state and local taxes are absolutely necessary for that. They can’t just print as much money as they want for whatever reason they want.

Additionally, historically what’s driven taxes are wars In most countries so old Wendell didn’t know what he didn’t know.
 
So you mean framing. That's not exactly fine "carpentry".

Also ah the good old snippy stupid "tell me you've never done X without telling me you've never done X" old people trying to be cool like the young kids....yes sir I've certainly been present on a residential construction site haha.

I'm not debating that they hire tons of undocumented immigrants. The debate is whether THAT is the thing that drives wages down (debatable), whether there's even another available labor force to take over if we deported all these workers and, even if that's the case, would the US economy tolerate for instance 2x as expensive produce if you had to pay people (who have other job options) 25 bucks an hour to go out and pick strawberries in the california sun.

The MAGAs were already complaining about Bidenflation but don't seem to have any path whatsoever to increasing legal immigration.
Did I say “cabinetry”?? No. I said “carpentry”.

Jeezus

You wanna debate semantics??

You wanna debate whether bringing in hundreds of thousands/millions of folks, who work cheaper than native whites/blacks/hispanics/asians, drives wages down???

Does supply/demand not enter into any rational thought you might have about economics??

Double jeezus…
 
I think you’re mistaken on how Americans seen the irs. And it isn’t just tax cheats, of which I am not.

View attachment 406253
Oh I agree that no one really likes the IRS. I'd like to live the rest of my life never interacting with them, ever again.

However - efficient, fair, and effective tax collection is the price of civilization. You look at chaotic messed up economies and governments like, say, Italy, where tax evasion is cultural and enforcement is terrible, and their sloppy/biased/absent tax collection apparatus compounds their financial woes (which are mostly spending-driven but revenue matters) ... you want to be like them? Because that's where we'll go if IRS enforcement is gutted.

Transparent and thorough collection of taxes levied by Congress is necessary. I'm not asking you to enjoy it, I'm asking you to permit it as the lesser evil.

And I remain surprised that you are so intolerant of the IRS (enforcing the law) yet so tolerant of an increasingly militarized and anonymous police force (also enforcing the law).
 
Oh I agree that no one really likes the IRS. I'd like to live the rest of my life never interacting with them, ever again.

However - efficient, fair, and effective tax collection is the price of civilization. You look at chaotic messed up economies and governments like, say, Italy, where tax evasion is cultural and enforcement is terrible, and their sloppy/biased/absent tax collection apparatus compounds their financial woes (which are mostly spending-driven but revenue matters) ... you want to be like them? Because that's where we'll go if IRS enforcement is gutted.

Transparent and thorough collection of taxes levied by Congress is necessary. I'm not asking you to enjoy it, I'm asking you to permit it as the lesser evil.

And I remain surprised that you are so intolerant of the IRS (enforcing the law) yet so tolerant of an increasingly militarized and anonymous police force (also enforcing the law).
Sure, we’ll be Italy when a fully cooked pizza flies out of your butt.

I proudly pay my state and local taxes. They’re fair and used for things that matter to me.

Federal taxes best I can tell are used to fund trillion dollar giveaways to various corporations and the elderly.
 
Speaking of IRS and government. Have you tried calling the IRS recently. I just spent 2 hours this morning. Hung up twice after long waits. Finally got to live agent. It's very frustrating. Just for a new eftps PIN that they accidentally deleted is what the agent told me. That's why I couldn't pay them.

Government at its finest.

Sounds like they need more employees to answer phones. Government at its finest? The now-classic MAGA tactic is to break the government and then point while complaining "see! government is broken!"

Or - we need a much simpler tax code. Flat tax rate with a high standard deduction to take the sting away from its most regressive features? I could get behind that. The complexity and cut-outs for lobbyists is truly government at its finest. But it doesn't have to be that way.

And it's for the business not my personal side in case you try to suggest IRS direct pay (which itself had some issues the day before the tax filing deadline.

It probably only makes sense for people with simple returns (maybe 80% of people in the country, earning under $100K and all W2).

It is a good program for what it does. I wouldn't expect it to meet your needs or mine.
 
Did I say “cabinetry”?? No. I said “carpentry”.

Jeezus

You wanna debate semantics??

You wanna debate whether bringing in hundreds of thousands/millions of folks, who work cheaper than native whites/blacks/hispanics/asians, drives wages down???

Does supply/demand not enter into any rational thought you might have about economics??

Double jeezus…
Yup.

So your solution is to artificially constrain the labor market in order to dramatically increase labor costs in order to potentially convince white folks to do jobs that they arent currently looking for and haven't been interested in doing in 50 years. Meanwhile driving up inflation

Or option 2. Let cheap labor come in so that citizens can focus on higher income jobs instead
 
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