Boards to be Pass/Fail, what does this mean for residency programs?

[fightingspirit]

lose out to the hot blonde with big boobs.

arent d-students already used to that from day 1 of d-school?

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[armorshell]

arent d-students already used to that from day 1 of d-school?

Not when you have an abundance of female row instructors . Over 50% of the row instructors I've had first year have not been danglers.

 

[blankguy]

Let the educators bash their heads over this. Us, students(or soon to be students) focus on doing well in dental school.

 

[Hysteria24]

Let the educators bash their heads over this. Us, students(or soon to be students) focus on doing well in dental school.

True, but it is nice to have a plan from day one. It used to be that as you went through your first two years, it would be beneficial to follow along in review books and review the decks.

Now with everything open, I feel a little lost. Obviously grades will still be vitally important, especially for establishing rank (although they don't rank at my school). Getting involved with research early, and other extracurriculars will hold some weight. But I can't start getting prepared for an imaginary "specialty test." Or if they were to add more wight to the GRE instead, it would be nice to know so I can start expanding my vocabulary from day one.

You get the point. Tell us the rules now, so we can get ready for the game.

 

[armorshell]

True, but it is nice to have a plan from day one. It used to be that as you went through your first two years, it would be beneficial to follow along in review books and review the decks.

Now with everything open, I feel a little lost. Obviously grades will still be vitally important, especially for establishing rank (although they don't rank at my school). Getting involved with research early, and other extracurriculars will hold some weight. But I can't start getting prepared for an imaginary "specialty test." Or if they were to add more wight to the GRE instead, it would be nice to know so I can start expanding my vocabulary from day one.

You get the point. Tell us the rules now, so we can get ready for the game.

Regardless of ranking or no ranking, I believe it will be very important for people who will be taking the test pass/fail to keep their grades as high as possible, because who knows what the school might do in the future, right?

As far as preparing for the specialty test, learning the material in your dental school sclasses should suffice, at least on the outset. I can't imagine that the test won't cover anatomy, biochem, path, micro, etc...

 

[Hysteria24]

Regardless of ranking or no ranking, I believe it will be very important for people who will be taking the test pass/fail to keep their grades as high as possible, because who knows what the school might do in the future, right?

Yes, keeping grades up is definitely goal number one! As far as ranking, I'll be attending USC and with the whole PBL, group learning, relying on each other thing, it would be counterproductive to rank. Not sure how Harvard and the other PLB schools do it.

As far as preparing for the specialty test, learning the material in your dental school sclasses should suffice, at least on the outset. I can't imagine that the test won't cover anatomy, biochem, path, micro, etc...

Once again, the PBL issue again comes into play here. A negative of the curriculum is that there will definitely be gaps and holes in one's knowledge. The benefit however is that students have the freedom to put extra work and effort into certain areas, and in a way customize their learning. This was an ideal situation when trying to score 90+ on part 1, because there was the extra freedom and time, along with all the NBDE material out there would make it easier to gear up for those topics. I understand what you are getting at by saying the "specialty" test will probably cover all the basic science subjects. But until I know for sure, there could be holes in what I need to know that won't be recognized until after the first students take that test (which includes me).



I am getting waaaaaay ahead of myself with all of this, seeing as how I don't even start d-school until august, but its just my nature to be planning ahead and getting prepared for the future.

 

[blankguy]

If you work hard and stay on top of your class no matter how they change things it will still show as being very competitive. It's a bit premature for me to plan that far ahead like that other than making sure that I do well in dental school.

 

[armorshell]

Once again, the PBL issue again comes into play here. A negative of the curriculum is that there will definitely be gaps and holes in one's knowledge. The benefit however is that students have the freedom to put extra work and effort into certain areas, and in a way customize their learning. This was an ideal situation when trying to score 90+ on part 1, because there was the extra freedom and time, along with all the NBDE material out there would make it easier to gear up for those topics. I understand what you are getting at by saying the "specialty" test will probably cover all the basic science subjects. But until I know for sure, there could be holes in what I need to know that won't be recognized until after the first students take that test (which includes me).

Of course theres the potential that whatever new test is out there will have some surprises, but they're going to be surprises for everyone. Remember, everyone here will be on the same playing field, taking a brand new test. Also remember that you should be able to easily find out what your curriculum didn't cover. I've asked every single one of my basic sciences professors what we didn't cover in depth, or at all, and I've got a pretty good idea of where the gaps in our curriculum lie, both for boards and for my own personal knowledge. I'd suggest you do the same (If that's possible with PBL).

I'd also like to comment on the fact that whatever test exists, you'll probably do pretty well on it. Considering how on top of everything you are, I can't imagine someone so motivated to succeed will be left in the dust.

 

[zoom12]

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[blankguy]

Practically every educator that I've talked to has looked at this change favorably. They agree on the point that the board was being stressed too much. The idea of the boards was to show that the individual is competent nothing more and nothing less. One of them points out that the licensing exam for MDs is pass/nonpass so dentistry is becoming more like MD licensing.

 

[capisce?]

Practically every educator that I've talked to has looked at this change favorably. They agree on the point that the board was being stressed too much. The idea of the boards was to show that the individual is competent nothing more and nothing less. One of them points out that the licensing exam for MDs is pass/nonpass so dentistry is becoming more like MD licensing.

How many of those educators are post-graduate faculty or residency directors? Probably none of them.

 

[armorshell]

Got some second hand info about the boards change today from an LSU intern - there is already a committee in place and working to create a DSAT.

 

[DentalBoardsDDS]

Love the idea. The specialists can figure out how to get into ortho on their own. But dental schools should focus on making competent dentists. The first two years need to be more clinically relevant and not a waste of time.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Got some second hand info about the boards change today from an LSU intern - there is already a committee in place and working to create a DSAT.

A national committee.. or just a LSU OMS one? Will every specialty program have their own new requirements? How will the DSAT be different than the NBDE I? Thanks armorshell... keep us updated.

 

[blankguy]

How many of those educators are post-graduate faculty or residency directors? Probably none of them.

Some of them do teach postgrads and no I don't have to go around asking directors for this. I'm just looking to get a feeler for what they think of this change.

 

[armorshell]

A national committee.. or just a LSU OMS one? Will every specialty program have their own new requirements? How will the DSAT be different than the NBDE I? Thanks armorshell... keep us updated.

They implied a true, national DSAT. I don't think they even know how it will be different at this point, but it's good to know they're working on it. Apparently the responses of program directors upon hearing the news were pretty similar to the early posts in this thread.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

They implied a true, national DSAT.

If only.. DSAT exam

 

[Hysteria24]

If only.. DSAT exam

Haha... I looked that up and found the same thing too. The funny thing is, I am a SCUBA diver and actually meet all the qualifications they list.

If only this were true... I'd be so in!!!

 

[1992Corolla]

Does this change mean anything for those of us taking it this summer in between our D2 and D3 year? Since I will apply to OMFS next year (2009) at this time then the new change won't really effect me unless I don't match and have to reapply in 2010?

I have also heard another rumor that because lower scores have been posting there will be a new 'scoring' to adjust for the ower grades and get more %'s back up into the 90's. Anyone else heard this?

 

[armorshell]

Does this change mean anything for those of us taking it this summer in between our D2 and D3 year? Since I will apply to OMFS next year (2009) at this time then the new change won't really effect me unless I don't match and have to reapply in 2010?

I have also heard another rumor that because lower scores have been posting there will be a new 'scoring' to adjust for the ower grades and get more %'s back up into the 90's. Anyone else heard this?

This is still a rumor since this is the first year people will be applying with the so-called "new grading scale." We'll probably know within a few months though, as people from your school start getting interviews for ortho what it's going to take for OMFS.

 

[griller]

has anyone talked to any admissions directors of specialties? seems like everyone is just spreading rumors from one side of the slate to another...i mean its fun to talk and predict whats going to happen but c'mon people, go out and ask someone who actually might have an answer. on that note, im off to the school to find some real answers.

ill post what i find out

 

[blankguy]

I just talked to an endodontics faculty member and he views this change favorably. He points out that MDs take licensing exams that are pass/non-pass.
It seems that dentistry is catching on to the way things are done in medicine.

 

[nug]

I just talked to an endodontics faculty member and he views this change favorably. He points out that MDs take licensing exams that are pass/non-pass.
It seems that dentistry is catching on to the way things are done in medicine.

Actually, that is not true. They take the USMLE. I know for a fact the first two parts (which are their version of our Part I and II) are graded. My g-friend is a medical student and she said that the scores from "step I" as they call it, are heavily weighted in determining who gets into the most competitive residencies.

 

[Squished Rat]

I just talked to an endodontics faculty member and he views this change favorably. He points out that MDs take licensing exams that are pass/non-pass.
It seems that dentistry is catching on to the way things are done in medicine.

That is incorrect. Step 1 of the medical boards is scored and weighted heavily for getting into post-grad residencies.

 

[blankguy]

That is incorrect. Step 1 of the medical boards is scored and weighted heavily for getting into post-grad residencies.

I guess we will have to see how it plays out then.

 

[UNR.Grad]

Actually, that is not true. They take the USMLE. I know for a fact the first two parts (which are their version of our Part I and II) are graded. My g-friend is a medical student and she said that the scores from "step I" as they call it, are heavily weighted in determining who gets into the most competitive residencies.

I was thinking the same thing, both of my brothers studied their a**es off to score well on the step 1 boards.

 

[Orthowhat]

Let me calm the future applicant pool down by confirming that all PG directors that I know (in orthodontics anyways) are well aware of this impending problem, and we are just as unhappy as the you are. We are currently researching available options, including separate or combined specialty aptitude / entrance exams. The trouble with these exams is that they require significant effort to create and administrate, never mind the additional cost to the applicants. I am confident however that a solution will be found. Note I didn't specify when... I do believe this will at least temporarily place significantly more weight on evaluations of the essays that are submitted. Currently I only read the ones with board scores above 90 (our website clearly states this as a prerequisite for application), if I now have to read all the essays I don't think I could do that efficiently despite my indefatigable constitution.

 

[smalldogman]

When NBDE grades become P/F, at request, will past exam takers have the option of converting their numerical scores to pass/fail? ( without having to retake the boards )

 

[Hysteria24]

When NBDE grades become P/F, at request, will past exam takers have the option of converting their numerical scores to pass/fail? ( without having to retake the boards )

A majority of page 3 of this thread deals with this issue.

 

[blankguy]

My understanding is that the only score is for failing candidates. They will get a raw score to diagnostic reasons. I don't think it is possible to get a numerical score unless they backtracked somewhat on this change to pass and fail.

 

[Columbia07]

When NBDE grades become P/F, at request, will past exam takers have the option of converting their numerical scores to pass/fail? ( without having to retake the boards )

No. If the dental student has already passed Part 1 (with a numerical score) they are automatically ineligible to take Part 1 again for a P/F when the switch is made in 2010. Only students who have not passed Part 1 and those who have not taken the test are eligible for the P/F when the switch is made.

 

[TJ witherspoon]

I'm aware rank is more objective, but what, generally, do those entering specialties have for GPA? Ranges? also, what about GPAs of those entering after doing a GPR/AEGD? Is one better? Soon there will be no boards to compare, so every other number will be scrutinized even a bit more.
Thanks!

 

[snooper92]

I'm a dental applicant, hoping for acceptance to start fall of '09. I decided to pursue dentistry with the full intention of specializing.

I would really like to know whether it would be disadvantageous to go to a school that is P/F, now with this new change of the boards.

It would be a shame to spend so much in tuition at a P/F school and to work so hard, only to find out that the residencies will look first at candidates who can provide a class rank.

 

[Dukie]

I'm a dental applicant, hoping for acceptance to start fall of '09. I decided to pursue dentistry with the full intention of specializing.

I would really like to know whether it would be disadvantageous to go to a school that is P/F, now with this new change of the boards.

It would be a shame to spend so much in tuition at a P/F school and to work so hard, only to find out that the residencies will look first at candidates who can provide a class rank.

There is really no way any of us could know the answer to this question. You are asking a group of students and residents to guess. The whole system may change by the time you are applying to specialties. I would choose the school you think will best prepare you to be a dentist at the most reasonable cost and go from there. The rest will work itself out in time.

 

[KOM]

This is still a rumor since this is the first year people will be applying with the so-called "new grading scale." We'll probably know within a few months though, as people from your school start getting interviews for ortho what it's going to take for OMFS.

90+ for sure. Already asked at my school.

 

[2thguy82]

90+ for sure. Already asked at my school.

You mean for OMFS with the new format still 90+?? I'm hearing a lot of schools understanding the difference between he two scales supposedly....

 

[dayfu17]

Any more word on what is happening to address the changes?

 

[aka47g]

Any new info on this topic??
I heard interest thing from our associate dean about the board. He told us part 2 is definitely p/f but part 1 is not at this time under discussion . I guess they are still debating this issue. That's what I heard from the dean at our school. Anyway, new info from other schools will be always welcome!! Have a great weekend guys~

 

[Cold Front]

Any new info on this topic??
I heard interest thing from our associate dean about the board. He told us part 2 is definitely p/f but part 1 is not at this time under discussion . I guess they are still debating this issue. That's what I heard from the dean at our school. Anyway, new info from other schools will be always welcome!! Have a great weekend guys~

There was an ADA meeting about this last March, and the vote was unanimous. Both exams will be pass/fail.

https://www.ada.org/prof/ed/testing/adea_2008_jcnde_update_nbde.pdf (pg 13)

Optometry, dental hygiene and other health programs' national board exams will also switch to pass and fail system.

 

[aka47g]

There was an ADA meeting about this last March, and the vote was unanimous. Both exams will be pass/fail.

https://www.ada.org/prof/ed/testing/adea_2008_jcnde_update_nbde.pdf (pg 13)

Optometry, dental hygiene and other health programs' national board exams will also switch to pass and fail system.

Thanks for the pdf file.
I thougt p/f for the board was final decision until I heard our dean's word. I guess our dean was not right. I just don't understand why our dean would not say the truth to us. Little shady.
Anyway, thanks Cold front.

 

[TTHRGr8T]

I have heard there is/ is going to be an appeal. As "flawed" as some may believe the system, it is difficult to judge candidates from P/F and non-class rank providing schools when considering them for residency acceptance. You have nothing objective to separate them from other candidates and I have yet to see a "bad" letter of recommendation! If I am interested in someone for whom I have minimal data, I will do some extra "digging" and research them, although I do that with all candidates. I don't just accept the application at face value. I think this is the only way to make things fair.

 

[achilles2]

I have heard there is/ is going to be an appeal. As "flawed" as some may believe the system, it is difficult to judge candidates from P/F and non-class rank providing schools when considering them for residency acceptance. You have nothing objective to separate them from other candidates and I have yet to see a "bad" letter of recommendation! If I am interested in someone for whom I have minimal data, I will do some extra "digging" and research them, although I do that with all candidates. I don't just accept the application at face value. I think this is the only way to make things fair.

I hope this is true.

 

[Cold Front]

I hope this is true.

The appeal was made last October by AAOMP, AAPD, AAP, AAOMS, AAO, AAPHD and ACP, to urge the JCNDE to hold off the change until 2011. But whatever the reason, the JCNDE has not accepted it.

Resoltuion 70
https://www.ada.org/members/ada/governance/hod/reports/res_70.pdf

 

[aka47g]

df

 

[dayfu17]

Wow, I'm surprised that this hasn't been posted already. I just got an email today from Dean Park (UCLA). He was forwarding the following email from the Joint Commission of Dental Examinations. It may come as a relief to some of you, and it may help sway your decisions on which school to attend. Cutting to the chase of the email: the boards change to P/F has been postponed to 2012. But for those hoping that it might get pushed back again - I wouldn't count on it. They seem pretty set that they aren't going to budge from the 2012 date. So with no further ado...

To: Dean and Academic Dean


From: Ron J. Seeley, D.D.S.

Chair, Joint Commission on National Dental Examinations


Subject: Pass/Fail Policy




At its annual meeting, the Joint Commission on National Dental Examinations (JCNDE) revisited its 2008 decision to move all National Board Dental and Dental Hygiene Examinations to a Pass/Fail system beginning in January of 2010. The JCNDE did this because of expressed concern by some communities of interest regarding the decision itself and also the timing of implementation.

The JCNDE has been monitoring these inquiries closely and had a very good discussion about all the ramifications of the 2008 decision. In the end, the JCNDE at their 2009 meeting reaffirmed its decision to implement Pass/Fail reporting, but extended the implementation date to January of 2012. This was done for two very sensible reasons. 1) Some state licensing boards may need more time to open practice acts and make rules changes in order for their regulations to remain aligned with the JCNDE decision, and 2) ADEA’s development of an alternative instrument for the evaluation and ranking of students for such things as graduate education program admission purposes warrants this much additional lead time to complete necessary field tests and validation studies before full-scale implementation of an alternative instrument.

In reviewing the decision, the JCNDE carefully considered expressed and unexpressed concerns from all known communities of interest, and its decision to extend the date of implementation was made for very specific logistical reasons. In making this decision, the JCNDE was concerned that some communities of interest would misinterpret its intentions. The decision to extend the date of implementation should not be interpreted as reflecting any change of intention or construed as opening the way for future reconsideration. The JCNDE’s decision to proceed with implementation of Pass/Fail reporting was unanimously reaffirmed, and communities of interest are advised that these Commissioners will not revisit the date certain of January 1, 2012.

On behalf of the entire Commission I want to thank all parties who expressed concern or support and in any way communicated with the JCNDE relative to this important issue. The JCNDE will move forward with the other business it must necessarily conduct.

 

[Clipse]

So with the boards going pass/fail, would you rather go to a pass/fail school with no class rank - or to a school that has a traditional grading system?

What's your logic?

 

[Innulja]

What you guys fail to realize is that the NBDE system right now is not being used correctly. The current NBDE exams are statistically made only to determine competency of the test takers. The statistics they use IS NOT valid to be used to compare one student to another. So the current system is broken. As it is right now the exam is ONLY TO BE USED to determine if a student is competent. However, because specialty programs are using the scores to compare applicants the National Board probably needs to make the exam P/NP in other to make sure that those that get 89 are not at a dissadvantage compared to one that received 90. In the NBDE now, someone who scored a 90 does not necessarily know more than someone who scored an 89, but because the scores are being compared as such, they need to get rid of the scoring. A new exam for "specialty" would be a more fair way of doing it. This way the exam and the statistics performed on the exam would be done specifically to determine which applicant is more qualified.

So that now means more exams, more money out of our pockets, and to top it all off more TIME input to prepare for those tests. I can see where it's all going....

 

[armorshell]

So that now means more exams, more money out of our pockets, and to top it all off more TIME input to prepare for those tests. I can see where it's all going....

Why would you spend any time preparing for a bare minimum Pass/Fail test? If the JCNDE want's the bare minimum, that's what they'll get. People cramming for a long weekend to knock out a "P" on the boards so they can spend their time studying for the test that matters.

 

[Innulja]

Why would you spend any time preparing for a bare minimum Pass/Fail test? If the JCNDE want's the bare minimum, that's what they'll get. People cramming for a long weekend to knock out a "P" on the boards so they can spend their time studying for the test that matters.

No, I meant the "specialty" exams. Nobody will care for the boards once the pass/fail business sets itself on the road.

 

[1169]

Sorry to be reviving an old thread, but does anyone have any more info on that "DSAT"?

I am Canadian, at a Canadian school, graduating in 2012.

Will they (graduate specialities) still list NBDE I as a requirement? Is there even a point for me to take it? Or should I wait until they come up with new requirements?

Thanks.