Can you apply to schools while in medical school?

[gyngyn]

Is this true for someone who matriculated to another professional school (lets say, Optometry) to a MD school or just between MD/DO schools?

I have not seen this happen in CA (even from Naturopathy or Chiro school).

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[LizzyM]

No Im saying I DO want to attend the wait list schools. Im getting my app in early this cycle so by that time I may not have an acceptance in hand like the OP does. Im applying in case I do not get off the wait list because I would know by mid august at the latest and would be WAY late for the upcoming cycle. Im happy at both of my WL schools and would much rather attend instead of go through the cycle again and be pushed back another year but not putting all my eggs in one basket and then scramble if I dont get an offer from either. Ill probably just withdraw my primary once I am accepted but it would be interesting to see if any schools who rejected me pre II last cycle would send me anything (tho I would kindly decline and say I was offered an acceptance from this cycle).

You should have started your own thread. I was confused and thought that you were the OP.
Go ahead and reapply while holding nothing but a waitlist.

 

[Goro]

Interesting, that's 2 in 5 years so still not common, but more common than I'd have guessed.



Yes, and she didn't get M1 fall tuition back and only got part of spring tuition back since she withdrew in Jan. Basically gave away $30k for the letters after her name. Which could probably be justified if she were gung-ho for ortho or neurosurg, but when she was at my school she wanted a mildly competitive field that some consider primary care.

Three anecdotes =/= "common" We're still in demographics on par with "Lotto winner". And keep in mind that these practices will become even rarer with the change in LCME rules.

It would be indeed ironic if said persons gave up the DO degree to pursue MD and still end up in Primary Care. A quick look at Pitt's grads who some 40% ended up in PC. Only 3% ended up in Gen Surg.

 

[Goro]

Is this true for someone who matriculated to another professional school (lets say, Optometry) to a MD school or just between MD/DO schools?

Never once at my school. We have interviewed people who failed out of MD schools...they're DOA here.

 

[Stagg737]

You should have started your own thread. I was confused and thought that you were the OP.
Go ahead and reapply while holding nothing but a waitlist.

Just for clarification since ADCOMs are here. How would it be viewed if someone were pulled off a waitlist a couple days before orientation (or even during a school's orientation) and turned that acceptance down because it was so late? I realize that generally speaking turning down an acceptance is a huge red flag, but I know of a couple people who were accepted to a school literally after orientation had already started. Would turning down an acceptance in that situation be as bad? Would other schools be able to see how late that was if the applicant turned it down?

Three anecdotes =/= "common" We're still in demographics on par with "Lotto winner". And keep in mind that these practices will become even rarer with the change in LCME rules.

It would be indeed ironic if said persons gave up the DO degree to pursue MD and still end up in Primary Care. A quick look at Pitt's grads who some 40% ended up in PC. Only 3% ended up in Gen Surg.

Not trying to say it's common by any means, I just hadn't heard of it happening other than the girl in my class. Hearing that 3 people have done it semi-recently makes me wonder how often it actually occurs.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Is this real life? Must be a troll. MUST BE

He said he’s submitted his primary. Amcas doesn’t open for submissions until tomorrow, so I’m guessing troll.

Unless he’s talking about aacomas on the md forum for some reason (but I’m not sure if that’s open for submission yet).

 

[LizzyM]

Just for clarification since ADCOMs are here. How would it be viewed if someone were pulled off a waitlist a couple days before orientation (or even during a school's orientation) and turned that acceptance down because it was so late? I realize that generally speaking turning down an acceptance is a huge red flag, but I know of a couple people who were accepted to a school literally after orientation had already started. Would turning down an acceptance in that situation be as bad? Would other schools be able to see how late that was if the applicant turned it down?

Once you reach what is, for you, the point of no return, you should withdraw your applications from schools where you are stillunder consideration... Taking a job and signing a lease? Withdraw your name from the waitlist of the school you wouldn't choose to attend if the offer were made at this point. That is a different point for each person. If you have no offers and get off a waitlist, it is ballsy to say, "Sorry, I can't say yes on such short notice." I can't say I'd blame you but some schools might question your sanity that you threw away an offer of admission and chose instead to reapply.

 

[Goro]

Just for clarification since ADCOMs are here. How would it be viewed if someone were pulled off a waitlist a couple days before orientation (or even during a school's orientation) and turned that acceptance down because it was so late? I realize that generally speaking turning down an acceptance is a huge red flag, but I know of a couple people who were accepted to a school literally after orientation had already started. Would turning down an acceptance in that situation be as bad? Would other schools be able to see how late that was if the applicant turned it down?



Not trying to say it's common by any means, I just hadn't heard of it happening other than the girl in my class. Hearing that 3 people have done it semi-recently makes me wonder how often it actually occurs.

I agree with LizzyM...it would make me question the person's judgement and commitment to Medicine. If the person didn't like the school, then they should have withdrawn from the wait list. I had a horrible Faculty job interview once and withdrew my name from contention as soon as I got home.

To your last question, at least for DO schools, we don't see when or even if you withdrew, but we do ask if you have been accepted elsewhere. We don't ask when.

 

[Stagg737]

Once you reach what is, for you, the point of no return, you should withdraw your applications from schools where you are stillunder consideration... Taking a job and signing a lease? Withdraw your name from the waitlist of the school you wouldn't choose to attend if the offer were made at this point. That is a different point for each person. If you have no offers and get off a waitlist, it is ballsy to say, "Sorry, I can't say yes on such short notice." I can't say I'd blame you but some schools might question your sanity that you threw away an offer of admission and chose instead to reapply.

This is what makes me wonder about it, and I think there are plenty of people who assume that once it gets late enough that they're just rejected. Especially since many schools don't even bother sending rejection e-mails or continuing communications with many people (technically I'm still on the waitlist at 2 schools from my first cycle in 2011).

I also get what you're saying about it being ballsy to turn down any offer if you're not holding one, but I think it's pretty bad form for a med school to offer a student a seat when they've already started orientation for the incoming class. I also think it's pretty inconsiderate to offer a seat only a week before orientation starts. I get that there are some logistical problems which can cause medical schools to offer late acceptances or even scramble, but some of the situations I've heard are just plain unreasonable and are just unrealistic for some people's life situations.

I agree with LizzyM...it would make me question the person's judgement and commitment to Medicine. If the person didn't like the school, then they should have withdrawn from the wait list. I had a horrible Faculty job interview once and withdrew my name from contention as soon as I got home.

I'm not referring to cases where someone doesn't want to attend a school. I'm talking about situations in which someone is given so little time before classes start that it's unrealistic to expect them to reasonably be able to find somewhere to live, move, and not miss classes. One of my friends from grad schools had a classmate who was literally pulled off the waitlist the day before classes started (after orientation). Apparently he lived pretty close, so it was pretty doable for him, but if they would have had to move from a few states over would you really blame them for turning the acceptance down?

 

[gyngyn]

I also get what you're saying about it being ballsy to turn down any offer if you're not holding one, but I think it's pretty bad form for a med school to offer a student a seat when they've already started orientation for the incoming class. I also think it's pretty inconsiderate to offer a seat only a week before orientation starts. I get that there are some logistical problems which can cause medical schools to offer late acceptances or even scramble, but some of the situations I've heard are just plain unreasonable and are just unrealistic for some people's life situations.

Since we won't know who has started school, we are preparing for this bad form to become the norm next year. Anyone could withdraw at anytime without notice and even if we wouldn't want to take someone who has already started, there will be no way to know.

 

[Stagg737]

Since we won't know who has started school, we are preparing for this bad form to become the norm next year. Anyone could withdraw at anytime without notice and even if we wouldn't want to take someone who has already started, there will be no way to know.

I mean that it's bad form for school A to offer a seat to an applicant when school A is already halfway through their orientation. Ie, they're allowing people to join their class when the rest of the class has already started (or some instances finished) orientation. I wasn't saying that the student had started orientation somewhere else, but that the student only held waitlist positions and was pulled ridiculously late in the season.

 

[gyngyn]

I mean that it's bad form for school A to offer a seat to an applicant when school A is already halfway through their orientation. Ie, they're allowing people to join their class when the rest of the class has already started (or some instances finished) orientation. I wasn't saying that the student had started orientation somewhere else, but that the student only held waitlist positions and was pulled ridiculously late in the season.

I understand. Nevertheless, this will become commonplace beginning next year because people will be leaving during (or even after!) orientation. Traffic rules will have been forsaken.

 

[Med Ed]

I mean that it's bad form for school A to offer a seat to an applicant when school A is already halfway through their orientation. Ie, they're allowing people to join their class when the rest of the class has already started (or some instances finished) orientation. I wasn't saying that the student had started orientation somewhere else, but that the student only held waitlist positions and was pulled ridiculously late in the season.

The alternative is to have an unfilled seat in the class. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[Stagg737]

The alternative is to have an unfilled seat in the class. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

I just think it's crappy because it can potentially screw that applicant over in future cycles if taking the acceptance is unrealistic. If ADCOMs could see how late that acceptance was offered it would be one thing, but if all they see is that the person turned down an acceptance then I'd rather the school not bother offering the acceptance at all.

 

[gyngyn]

I just think it's crappy because it can potentially screw that applicant over in future cycles if taking the acceptance is unrealistic. If ADCOMs could see how late that acceptance was offered it would be one thing, but if all they see is that the person turned down an acceptance then I'd rather the school not bother offering the acceptance at all.

We will have no alternative next year.

 

[Stagg737]

I understand. Nevertheless, this will become commonplace beginning next year because people will be leaving during (or even after!) orientation. Traffic rules will have been forsaken.

We will have no alternative next year.

Was there a change in regulations? Is the deadline no longer going to exist or something?

 

[MonkeyArrow]

Was there a change in regulations? Is the deadline no longer going to exist or something?

Yes. Read this thread: WL movement has been kind of quiet around here.

 

[gyngyn]

Was there a change in regulations? Is the deadline no longer going to exist or something?

Yes. The traffic rules have been challenged by the DoJ and AAMC lawyers have capitulated without a fight.

 

[Lawpy]

Was there a change in regulations? Is the deadline no longer going to exist or something?

Yes. The traffic rules have been challenged by the DoJ and AAMC lawyers have capitulated without a fight.

The 2018-2019 cycle is going to get turned upside down

Word has come down from the heavens that the AAMC will no longer issue the multiple acceptance report or national acceptance report each spring. Furthermore, the prohibition on schools accepting students who have already matriculated at other schools will be dissolved.

Make no mistake, this is going to wreak havoc with many schools across the country. It will be interesting to see what admissions offices will do in order to fill their seats (and keep them filled).

This could be fallout of a federal probe of LACs that are being investigated by the US Department of Justice for collusion. Story was in the Wall Street Journal on April 12, 2018.
Also here:
The Boston Globe
Amherst, Wellesley, Wesleyan face DOJ early decision investigation - The Boston Globe

Lawsuits, the same reason for every dramatic AAMC change.

Let's say you're an amazing applicant who gets into Penn, Yale, and Hopkins. But you have your heart set on Stanford, who waitlists you. At some point Stanford looks at the multiple acceptance report, sees that you have three other amazing offers, and skips you. Lawsuit.

Let's say you are an amazing applicant who gets into Penn, Yale, and Hopkins. But you have your heart set on Stanford, who waitlists you. Eventually you reluctantly start orientation and Penn/Yale/Hopkins, but a few days in a seat comes open at Stanford. You are at the top of their waitlist, but they give the seat to someone else because you have started elsewhere. Lawsuit.

I'd expect more later season interviews to ask about other offers. It might be phrased as "what will you do if you aren't admitted to medical school?" as a way for applicants to say, "well, I've been admitted but hypothetically, if I hadn't been admitted, I would consider..."

I'd also expect more letters of interest/intent from applicants and, perhaps, more schools making those an explicit expectation after interview as a way of indicating continued interest in the school.

I do believe we have to hold firm with a "no poaching" rule meaning that once you matriculate at a school, your name automatically becomes known to all medical schools you've applied to using AMCAS and you are automatically removed from any waitlist. A school with an empty seat on the first day of classes shouldn't be able to poach a student who started last week at another school leaving the school with an earlier start date an empty seat that it can't fill (because the student will have missed too much of the first year curriculum).

 

[atomi]

I had a classmate who got into a top US MD school after his first year at a Caribbean school. I don't know how, but he did.
If you got into a US MD school, then go and don't look back. This is a stupidly long process, one I started 11 years ago and am still not done with, and every year counts. You can get into every specialty from any US MD school. Do well and have fun on your R&R time. If you start the school and are trying to apply somewhere else, (1) your head won't be in the right place and you will do poorly, and (2) you will waste your time because without a connection it's not going to happen.

If you have a Caribbean acceptance or DO acceptance and absolutely don't want to do primary care, then yes, by all means decline it and try for the MD school. But you'd still be an idiot to try and start at either and pray you'll be like my classmate. Although in my mind, it is perfectly legitimate for you to try and transfer while a DO or Caribbean student if you have decided you want to do a surgical subspecialty or a specialty that does not have a DO residency, and schools should consider this a valid reason for applying while a current medical student -- although you will need the shadowing facetime, references, and preferable publications to back it up.

 

[Stagg737]

@gyngyn , @Lawper , interesting. Had no idea that those regulations were changing. So are they completely doing away with the list altogether now or just not publishing it until after all schools have started? Sounds like just another case of how politicians and administrators are destroying the healthcare and medical education systems.

I am still confused by this. If a person chooses to remain on a WL, they do with the explicit goal of being offerred an acceptance. If they then turn down the acceptance because of the lateness, that is not simply bad judgement. It can be viewed as someone who may not be committed to this or simy got cold feet. Why would another medical school take a chance on this person next cycle.

It is solely up to the applicant to withdraw from WL if they feel it is too late. The responsibilty is fully on the applicant

Imo by the time mid-August of the next cycle hits, it should be safe to assume you were not accepted and move on as you're already 2.5 months into the next cycle. It's ludicrous to punish someone or question their commitment when you basically give them the ultimatum of "Completely reorganize your life and take care of everything while simultaneously being ready to start med school in 3 days or you'll be blacklisted as someone who will likely turn down an acceptance." We already have to jump through enough BS hoops through this whole process, the least that can be done is to not potentially destroy someone's future chances because a med school got desperate to fill 1 or 2 seats.

 

[Isoval]

You sure type fast...

Are you sure you don’t type slow

 

[gyngyn]

Are you sure you don’t type slow

I am entirely sure that I do type slowly!

 

[Med Ed]

It's ludicrous to punish someone or question their commitment when you basically give them the ultimatum of "Completely reorganize your life and take care of everything while simultaneously being ready to start med school in 3 days or you'll be blacklisted as someone who will likely turn down an acceptance."

It takes 45 hours to drive from LA to Boston, and I have known plenty of applicants who would do that in a heartbeat if it meant a seat in medical school. I know some schools do alter their waitlist order late in the cycle to accommodate proximity, but you never know what people are willing to do until you ask. This is why it is incumbent upon applicants to remove themselves from waitlists.

Besides, I doubt a late-cycle offer would even get registered with AMCAS if it were declined immediately. As in during the phone call. The dean would simply hang up, move on to the next person on the list, and no one would be the wiser.

 

[Stagg737]

It takes 45 hours to drive from LA to Boston, and I have known plenty of applicants who would do that in a heartbeat if it meant a seat in medical school. I know some schools do alter their waitlist order late in the cycle to accommodate proximity, but you never know what people are willing to do until you ask. This is why it is incumbent upon applicants to remove themselves from waitlists.

Besides, I doubt a late-cycle offer would even get registered with AMCAS if it were declined immediately. As in during the phone call. The dean would simply hang up, move on to the next person on the list, and no one would be the wiser.

And if the bolded was the case I would have no problems with that. While some people would literally take on 7 figures worth of debt to get into med school, I don't think it would be fair for someone who was more reasonable in terms of actual life situation or who would literally be incapable of doing that because of life situations to be punished in that situation.

I also think this would be less of an issue if schools were better at communicating. Some schools are great, others are miserable at it. I never heard back from probably 50% of the schools I applied to after the secondaries, and as I said before I never heard back from 2 schools I was waitlisted at. If schools communicated with the applicants more reasonably it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Goro]

We will have no alternative next year.

Welcome to our DO world! Our state school routinely will poach several of our matriculants in the first week of classes.

 

[FlavivirusProtease]

Welcome to our DO world! Our state school routinely will poach several of our matriculants in the first week of classes.

Could you ELI5 what not publishing the acceptance report does to the application cycle next year? I'm confused.

 

[Goro]

Could you ELI5 what not publishing the acceptance report does to the application cycle next year? I'm confused.

Schools will be able to poach from each other without sanction. Thus, people who matriculate can actually leave and go to another medical school!

 

[chaim123]

Schools will be able to poach from each other without sanction. Thus, people who matriculate can actually leave and go to another medical school!

Do we think this is going to affect medical school start dates? Why would places risk starting in July, when members of their class could be poached up through August by later starting schools.

 

[FlavivirusProtease]

Schools will be able to poach from each other without sanction. Thus, people who matriculate can actually leave and go to another medical school!

Alright. Do you think this would be common though?

I couldn't see why the school would decide to poach an already matriculated student as opposed to a student that is not going anywhere, seems like it would just alienate them between other medical schools.

 

[chaim123]

Alright. Do you think this would be common though?

I couldn't see why the school would decide to poach an already matriculated student as opposed to a student that is not going anywhere, seems like it would just alienate them between other medical schools.

The issue is schools will have NO idea if you've already matriculated. They can't see other acceptances. So maybe they wouldn't do it on purpose. But it would happen.

 

[ciestar]

Schools will be able to poach from each other without sanction. Thus, people who matriculate can actually leave and go to another medical school!

Wow. Why would you want to do this lol
Maybe my simple mind doesn’t get it. But breaking a lease, starting over..just doesn’t reallt seem worth it.

 

[ciestar]

Alright. Do you think this would be common though?

I couldn't see why the school would decide to poach an already matriculated student as opposed to a student that is not going anywhere, seems like it would just alienate them between other medical schools.

Yes but without that report, how would they know?

 

[Goro]

Alright. Do you think this would be common though?

I couldn't see why the school would decide to poach an already matriculated student as opposed to a student that is not going anywhere, seems like it would just alienate them between other medical schools.

If said candidate is a superstar, why not?

 

[FlavivirusProtease]

If said candidate is a superstar, why not?

Do you think this might cause MD schools to have massive deposits, similar to DO schools, to hinder students switching last minute?

I couldn't see someone wanting to pay a non-refundable $2000 deposit multiple times. It would be even worse after matriculation, since you'd lose the entire semester of tuition.

 

[gyngyn]

Do you think this might cause MD schools to have massive deposits, similar to DO schools, to hinder students switching last minute?

This is a real possibility.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

It was just a thought. My more realistic plan is to just decline the offer and continue with my application.

Don’t be stupid.

 

[Goro]

Do you think this might cause MD schools to have massive deposits, similar to DO schools, to hinder students switching last minute?

I couldn't see someone wanting to pay a non-refundable $2000 deposit multiple times. It would be even worse after matriculation, since you'd lose the entire semester of tuition.

I agree with the learned gyngyn.

 

[DokterMom]

He said he’s submitted his primary. Amcas doesn’t open for submissions until tomorrow, so I’m guessing troll.

Unless he’s talking about aacomas on the md forum for some reason (but I’m not sure if that’s open for submission yet).

Or TMDSAS -- They open May 1st

I am still confused by this. If a person chooses to remain on a WL, they do with the explicit goal of being offerred an acceptance. If they then turn down the acceptance because of the lateness, that is not simply bad judgement. It can be viewed as someone who may not be committed to this or simy got cold feet. Why would another medical school take a chance on this person next cycle.

It is solely up to the applicant to withdraw from WL if they feel it is too late. The responsibilty is fully on the applicant

Applicants - If you wouldn't be willing to leave with little more than the clothes on your back and leave your mess for someone else to clean up and ship (Thanks Mom!), then this is your chance to redeem your batting average and reject them before they reject you!

-------------------------

Personally, I'm thinking this will be a big mess next year... Higher deposits could reduce some of the messiness, but at the same time, it's just one more hurdle for the SES-disadvantaged.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Guess its gonna be a fecal weather system.

Somehow I hadn't heard this one before.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Just the technical term for a **** storm

Oh I figured it out right away, just somehow never heard that before. I like it.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

I also get what you're saying about it being ballsy to turn down any offer if you're not holding one, but I think it's pretty bad form for a med school to offer a student a seat when they've already started orientation for the incoming class. I also think it's pretty inconsiderate to offer a seat only a week before orientation starts. I get that there are some logistical problems which can cause medical schools to offer late acceptances or even scramble, but some of the situations I've heard are just plain unreasonable and are just unrealistic for some people's life situations.

Eh, works out well sometimes. One of my classmates got pulled off the waitlist after classes had started (I think she started day 2 or 3 of the actual school year); because, we had someone drop in the middle of orientation. She ended up matching into a really good program in her chosen field. Last minute acceptance is better than no acceptance.

 

[watermelon master]

Never once at my school. We have interviewed people who failed out of MD schools...they're DOA here.

Why would you interview people who failed out of MD schools if they're DOA?

 

[Goro]

Why would you interview people who failed out of MD schools if they're DOA?

To the great annoyance of the members of our Adcom, we don't pre-screen candidates. The mandate of our wily old Admissions dean is to get warm bodies into seats. He doesn't care about whether or not they're unteachable. Alas, we do.

 

[watermelon master]

To the great annoyance of the members of our Adcom, we don't pre-screen candidates. The mandate of our wily old Admissions dean is to get warm bodies into seats. He doesn't care about whether or not they're unteachable. Alas, we do.

So they're screened out at the interview then? Kind of sucks for everybody. Their time is wasted and your time is wasted when you could have interviewed an eligible candidate.

 

[Goro]

So they're screened out at the interview then? Kind of sucks for everybody. Their time is wasted and your time is wasted when you could have interviewed an eligible candidate.

Yup. Believe, we Faculty hate it too.

 

[chaim123]

To the great annoyance of the members of our Adcom, we don't pre-screen candidates. The mandate of our wily old Admissions dean is to get warm bodies into seats. He doesn't care about whether or not they're unteachable. Alas, we do.

Are you saying that at your school everyone who completes a secondary gets an interview?

 

[Goro]

Are you saying that at your school everyone who completes a secondary gets an interview?

Nope. Even we have standards

 

[chaim123]

Nope. Even we have standards

I assumed so. I just wasn't sure what you meant by no pre-screen

 

[Goro]

I assumed so. I just wasn't sure what you meant by no pre-screen

Unlike MD schools, my school doesn't have a screening function (ie, Adcom committee) to vet apps. Thus, at any MD school, a med school dropout would be autorejected expect in very rare instances.