Caribbean med student to derm resident.

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Mansamusa said:
And you sound like someone who is trying to sell a product that we ain't buying
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Good thing I'm not selling to you:) This is for pre-meds who want to learn more about different med schools. Not for someone that dismisses data and facts because they don't like them!
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Dr.LX said:
There is no verified data. Just like there is no data showing whether students from one med school got admitted into another.
Also, there is a supposition that every med student wants to go into something other than primary care. A 95% match rate is something if most students get into what specialty they want to. Honestly you're coming across as someone that dismisses primary care as a useless match, which is rather offsetting.
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I guarantee over two thirds of the students there didn't sign up for 400k+ in debt with a desire to enter primary care. Hell, even at my very PC focused school, nearly 20% less end up in prinary care matches than at Ross.
 
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DoctorInVivo said:
How many people actually made it to Match day is the real question. The numbers will be skewed if you're just counting the students who passed.


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Over 90% of students make it to the match.
 
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Mad Jack said:
I guarantee over two thirds of the students there didn't sign up for 400k+ in debt with a desire to enter primary care. Hell, even at my very PC focused school, nearly 20% less end up in prinary care matches than at Ross.
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Okay? That's your opinion. I welcome all opinions as long as everyone is polite to each other.
 
Dr.LX said:
Good thing I'm not selling to you:) This is for pre-meds who want to learn more about different med schools. Not for someone that dismisses data and facts because they don't like them!
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You're trying to pass an anecdote as data, when the data shows that Ross students statistically do not match well, that, of the people who complete the program, 77% do so within 4 years (and that's of the people that complete it- they do not report attrition), so 23% of people are finishing late while an unknown portion (they have a two year attrition rate of 11% per their own website but refuse to state completion rates, which are estimated to have attrition rates of between 20-30%) do not graduate at all. Basically, you're looking at a 50% chance of finishing late or never, and a 2/3 chance of ending up in primary care, with an average student indebtedness that is higher than any school stateside. Quite simply, you would have to have extremely poor judgment to pick Ross over any US school, period.

http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/gainful-employment.htm
http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/Facts-and-Figures.cfm
 
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Dr.LX said:
Okay? That's your opinion. I welcome all opinions as long as everyone is polite to each other.
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You also merely have an opinion that you're backing with anecdotes rather than data. That isn't how a physician should operate, no pun intended.
 
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Dr.LX said:
May I ask why people are against others going to the Caribbean? It doesn't affect you in any way. In fact, it gives you a greater chance to get into the med school of your choice. So many people talk about the horror stories, yet so many physicians in America graduated from there, and are practicing and earning the same amount as US grads!
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We are generally about maximizing the chances of success. For people who want to go to medical school, there are essentially 3 options. US MD, US DO, and International MD.

Given that the end goal is to become a practicing physician in the United States, the best options are to go to a US MD school, and, if that is not possible, then a US DO school. Both of these have an extraordinarily high chance of allowing those who choose these paths to achieve this goal. Now, remember that the price of not matching is making it exponentially harder to achieve this goal and also comes with a large amount of monetary loss, both in terms of years lost to attending salary (if you are unmatched) and in educational expenses (which may be accruing interest if you took out loans, which, chances the hypothetical person did). If you take the IMG route, you run a much higher chance of not matching and entering this worst case scenario zone - a chance that is actually significant when compared to that chance for the USMD and USDO routes. Whether or not going Caribbean in general is a bad decision without respect to the fact that there are options (bear with me, I'll get to this part in a second), is something that is often discussed on these forums and if you do a search, you'll find a lot of threads with people arguing the point from all sides, os I won't address it here.

So let's assume someone can't get into a US MD school. The choice is US DO or IMG. Objectively, the more rational choice here (again, given our initial goal), is US DO, where you have a 99.something% chance of matching to a US residency vs a <90% chance (I won't list an explicit figure here because I don't actually know it offhand - I have heard percentages from 50-85% quoted on here depending on the school or whatever, but you can find the stats via NMRP or other sources that people have posted).

Now lets assume that someone isn't competitive for US DO. Should they go Caribbean? I will make my argument here that, no, you should not. What are the requirements to get into a USDO school? EC wise, that's the same for every medical school in the US and is easily "box checked" if you need to do that - just shadow a bit, volunteer a bit, be in a hospital a bit, you're basically okay. Yes, I understand its more nuanced than that, but ECs are generally not the reason people don't get into a single MD or DO school in the US, so let's sidestep this point a sec. Statwise, you have a good shot at a DO school if you have a 3.25+ GPA calculated by AACOMAS and a 503ish+ MCAT, which is around a 27 on the old MCAT and is ~60th percentile or so. So 3.25/503. Let's work with that.

Let's start with GPA. If you come out of college with a lower GPA, and want to go MD, you have a few options. You can do a postbac, but this is expensive and doesn't raise your GPA that much. You can do an SMP, but that's risky and expensive. However, if you're applying DO, you have a third option - grade replacement. Strategically utilizing grade replacement over the course of a year can skyrocket your GPA. Take (and do well in) one to two semesters of classes that 1) you have already taken before and 2) will fully replace the grade you got before, and your GPA will shoot way up, definitely into range for DO competitiveness. What if you can't manage to pull your GPA up even after retaking (and perhaps doing poorly)? Well, if you're struggling with college level courses, you need to seriously consider how you will be doing in medical school classes, because I can tell you it won't be "excellently".

Now let's look at the MCAT. If you are scoring above the 50th percentile (500), you are at least somewhat competitive for a DO school. Might not be KCUMB or PCOM, but a DO school that will let you match with a very high chance of success in the US. Tried multiple times and still can't break that 500 barrier? Speaking as a medical student, the tests I've taken in the past year have been harder than any other tests I've ever taken in my entire life, including the MCAT. They are hard, they require a lot of intense preparation, they require strong critical thinking, and they cover a lot of material. And I haven't even thought about my Steps yet. If you cannot break the 50th percentile on the MCAT, do you think you are prepared for the highly intense high stakes testing environment that is medical school and beyond? I would say most likely not.

Finally, lets look at the last argument that people use to justify their decision to go to the Caribbean: time. I hear all the time "oh I don't want to take a year off and retake the MCAT or retake organic chemistry 1.5, I want to go to med school now!". Well that's great, but let's look at this from a not-super-short-term perspective. Let's look at your post medical school outcomes (again, keeping in mind that the goal is to become a practicing US physician). You can match into a categorical residency where you will become board certified. You can match into a preliminary residency with no PGY2 position and have to either reapply for the match, find an outside the match PGY2 position, or repeat your intern year. Or you can not match and have to do all of this again, with any of the options here a possible result of your next attempt. Additionally, keep in mind that the further you fall down this ladder, the harder it is to move back up, and the longer you stay at the bottom of the ladder, the less likely it is that you'll be able to climb it again.

Now let's go back to our scenario of Anxious Arnold and his desire to start medical school as soon as possible. If he goes straight to the Caribbean, there is a much higher chance than normal that he will either match into a prelim position without a PGY2 position (look at Ross's match list - there are an awful lot of prelims there, and Ross is one of the best Caribbean schools) or that he will fail to match at all. That already puts him a year behind because he's going to have to apply to the match again, and, unfortunately for him, Caribbean graduates who fail to match the first time have two red flags going for them in the eyes of US program directors. He's going to have a very difficult time climbing that ladder in either circumstance. He could match into a categorical position, but he has a much lower chance of doing so than his US counterparts. He could also have to repeat a year, which would put him a year behind (again, much more likely in the Caribbean than in the US because of how they structure their program), or, worst of all, he could fail out and be heavily in debt with no career prospects. So in this case, if he decides to jump the gun and go straight to the Caribbean, he has a high chance of having to start his career a year later anyway (if at all) in addition to the other risks I've already talked about. However, if he takes that year up front to improve his GPA or MCAT or whatever and goes to DO school, he is far, far less likely to run into any of those other problems and thus will be much more secure in attaining his goal.

Now, (and if you're really sensitive or whatever, this next part might be a bit harsh), I have said before and I will continue to say that if you cannot get into a single US MD or US DO school within several cycles of applying, you should not become a physician. Note that this does not include everyone who goes to the Caribbean. There are some who, if they had followed this advice, could have strengthened their application and gone to a US school, or a select few who, like you, turned down a US MD (???) school for a Caribbean school. Some of these people succeed, some of them do not. More do not than would have had they gone to a US school.

Another argument I've heard is that people who could have gotten into a US school will be the ones who do succeed at a Caribbean school, but I don't think this is true. US schools (both MD and DO) are designed to, if you get in, get you to graduation and residency, because if they don't, then licensing bodies put them on probation or shut them down. Caribbean schools don't care if you fail or pass, so these people might still actually fail out of school or fail to match (both of which put you more or less in the same boat) if they don't have the support system of the US school. Thus, if you are the type of person who thinks they would succeed in the Caribbean, you are also likely to be the type of person who could get into a US school, so why not just go to a US school?

I hope I haven't left anything out. I spent a good amount of time typing this that I should have spent learning about kidney disease, so I hope it's clear. Anyway, these are all of the reasons why I never advise anyone to go to the Caribbean. Not because it dooms you to failure, but because it just doesn't make sense.
 
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The guy just made his account today. He is either a troll or a paid shill, because he knows a lot of common SDN opinions and attempts to refute them.
 
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Mad Jack said:
You're trying to pass an anecdote as data, when the data shows that Ross students statistically do not match well, that, of the people who complete the program, 77% do so within 4 years (and that's of the people that complete it- they do not report attrition), so 23% of people are finishing late while an unknown portion (they have a two year attrition rate of 11% per their own website but refuse to state completion rates, which are estimated to have attrition rates of between 20-30%) do not graduate at all. Basically, you're looking at a 50% chance of finishing late or never, and a 2/3 chance of ending up in primary care, with an average student indebtedness that is higher than any school stateside. Quite simply, you would have to have extremely poor judgment to pick Ross over any US school, period.

http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/gainful-employment.htm
http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/Facts-and-Figures.cfm
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WedgeDawg said:
We are generally about maximizing the chances of success. For people who want to go to medical school, there are essentially 3 options. US MD, US DO, and International MD.

Given that the end goal is to become a practicing physician in the United States, the best options are to go to a US MD school, and, if that is not possible, then a US DO school. Both of these have an extraordinarily high chance of allowing those who choose these paths to achieve this goal. Now, remember that the price of not matching is making it exponentially harder to achieve this goal and also comes with a large amount of monetary loss, both in terms of years lost to attending salary (if you are unmatched) and in educational expenses (which may be accruing interest if you took out loans, which, chances the hypothetical person did). If you take the IMG route, you run a much higher chance of not matching and entering this worst case scenario zone - a chance that is actually significant when compared to that chance for the USMD and USDO routes. Whether or not going Caribbean in general is a bad decision without respect to the fact that there are options (bear with me, I'll get to this part in a second), is something that is often discussed on these forums and if you do a search, you'll find a lot of threads with people arguing the point from all sides, os I won't address it here.

So let's assume someone can't get into a US MD school. The choice is US DO or IMG. Objectively, the more rational choice here (again, given our initial goal), is US DO, where you have a 99.something% chance of matching to a US residency vs a <90% chance (I won't list an explicit figure here because I don't actually know it offhand - I have heard percentages from 50-85% quoted on here depending on the school or whatever, but you can find the stats via NMRP or other sources that people have posted).

Now lets assume that someone isn't competitive for US DO. Should they go Caribbean? I will make my argument here that, no, you should not. What are the requirements to get into a USDO school? EC wise, that's the same for every medical school in the US and is easily "box checked" if you need to do that - just shadow a bit, volunteer a bit, be in a hospital a bit, you're basically okay. Yes, I understand its more nuanced than that, but ECs are generally not the reason people don't get into a single MD or DO school in the US, so let's sidestep this point a sec. Statwise, you have a good shot at a DO school if you have a 3.25+ GPA calculated by AACOMAS and a 503ish+ MCAT, which is around a 27 on the old MCAT and is ~60th percentile or so. So 3.25/503. Let's work with that.

Let's start with GPA. If you come out of college with a lower GPA, and want to go MD, you have a few options. You can do a postbac, but this is expensive and doesn't raise your GPA that much. You can do an SMP, but that's risky and expensive. However, if you're applying DO, you have a third option - grade replacement. Strategically utilizing grade replacement over the course of a year can skyrocket your GPA. Take (and do well in) one to two semesters of classes that 1) you have already taken before and 2) will fully replace the grade you got before, and your GPA will shoot way up, definitely into range for DO competitiveness. What if you can't manage to pull your GPA up even after retaking (and perhaps doing poorly)? Well, if you're struggling with college level courses, you need to seriously consider how you will be doing in medical school classes, because I can tell you it won't be "excellently".

Now let's look at the MCAT. If you are scoring above the 50th percentile (500), you are at least somewhat competitive for a DO school. Might not be KCUMB or PCOM, but a DO school that will let you match with a very high chance of success in the US. Tried multiple times and still can't break that 500 barrier? Speaking as a medical student, the tests I've taken in the past year have been harder than any other tests I've ever taken in my entire life, including the MCAT. They are hard, they require a lot of intense preparation, they require strong critical thinking, and they cover a lot of material. And I haven't even thought about my Steps yet. If you cannot break the 50th percentile on the MCAT, do you think you are prepared for the highly intense high stakes testing environment that is medical school and beyond? I would say most likely not.

Finally, lets look at the last argument that people use to justify their decision to go to the Caribbean: time. I hear all the time "oh I don't want to take a year off and retake the MCAT or retake organic chemistry 1.5, I want to go to med school now!". Well that's great, but let's look at this from a not-super-short-term perspective. Let's look at your post medical school outcomes (again, keeping in mind that the goal is to become a practicing US physician). You can match into a categorical residency where you will become board certified. You can match into a preliminary residency with no PGY2 position and have to either reapply for the match, find an outside the match PGY2 position, or repeat your intern year. Or you can not match and have to do all of this again, with any of the options here a possible result of your next attempt. Additionally, keep in mind that the further you fall down this ladder, the harder it is to move back up, and the longer you stay at the bottom of the ladder, the less likely it is that you'll be able to climb it again.

Now let's go back to our scenario of Anxious Arnold and his desire to start medical school as soon as possible. If he goes straight to the Caribbean, there is a much higher chance than normal that he will either match into a prelim position without a PGY2 position (look at Ross's match list - there are an awful lot of prelims there, and Ross is one of the best Caribbean schools) or that he will fail to match at all. That already puts him a year behind because he's going to have to apply to the match again, and, unfortunately for him, Caribbean graduates who fail to match the first time have two red flags going for them in the eyes of US program directors. He's going to have a very difficult time climbing that ladder in either circumstance. He could match into a categorical position, but he has a much lower chance of doing so than his US counterparts. He could also have to repeat a year, which would put him a year behind (again, much more likely in the Caribbean than in the US because of how they structure their program), or, worst of all, he could fail out and be heavily in debt with no career prospects. So in this case, if he decides to jump the gun and go straight to the Caribbean, he has a high chance of having to start his career a year later anyway (if at all) in addition to the other risks I've already talked about. However, if he takes that year up front to improve his GPA or MCAT or whatever and goes to DO school, he is far, far less likely to run into any of those other problems and thus will be much more secure in attaining his goal.

Now, (and if you're really sensitive or whatever, this next part might be a bit harsh), I have said before and I will continue to say that if you cannot get into a single US MD or US DO school within several cycles of applying, you should not become a physician. Note that this does not include everyone who goes to the Caribbean. There are some who, if they had followed this advice, could have strengthened their application and gone to a US school, or a select few who, like you, turned down a US MD (???) school for a Caribbean school. Some of these people succeed, some of them do not. More do not than would have had they gone to a US school.

Another argument I've heard is that people who could have gotten into a US school will be the ones who do succeed at a Caribbean school, but I don't think this is true. US schools (both MD and DO) are designed to, if you get in, get you to graduation and residency, because if they don't, then licensing bodies put them on probation or shut them down. Caribbean schools don't care if you fail or pass, so these people might still actually fail out of school or fail to match (both of which put you more or less in the same boat) if they don't have the support system of the US school. Thus, if you are the type of person who thinks they would succeed in the Caribbean, you are also likely to be the type of person who could get into a US school, so why not just go to a US school?

I hope I haven't left anything out. I spent a good amount of time typing this that I should have spent learning about kidney disease, so I hope it's clear. Anyway, these are all of the reasons why I never advise anyone to go to the Caribbean. Not because it dooms you to failure, but because it just doesn't make sense.
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Thank you for expressing your opinion! My opinion, and my experience, along with that of my classmates (I cannot speak for other med schools) differs. Do I regret turning down MD acceptances? Never. I wouldn't be the doctor I am today if I hadn't.
 
Dr.LX said:
There is no record on how many fail out. I do know most people who don't make it to the match leave because going to another country is not for them. Over 90% of students graduate. One thing students who want to go to the Caribbean should know is that moving can always be stressful. Make sure you are the type of person to be okay with moving and med school!
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That is incorrect. DeVry International, parent company of Ross, reported to to Bloomberg Business it had a 52% attrition rate in 2013*. Additionally, Ross has reported on its own website a "first-attempt residency attainment rate for 88 percent" in 2015.** That is not match but from all methods including SOAP and off-cycle. My previous assessment that the "success rate" of a entering Ross as M1, receiving a degree, and gaining any residency slot is 45%, approximately half of US medical schools still stands.

The above is also supported by the fact that Ross enters 400-600 new students 3 times a year for a minimum of 1200 and a max of 1800. With Ross reporting 850 residency placements this year, it falls at about 50% attrition estimate

The question isnt their profit motive, the quality of the education, or the competency of doctors who graduate from there. It is as an advisor I cannot comfortably recommend to any student to assume a debt of hundreds of thousands of dollars to a less than 50% chance of getting ANY residency slot in the US. This was not the case a decade ago where this was a reasonable path to medicine for a competent student.

*http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...an-medical-schools-use-federal-funds-loophole
**http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/Facts-and-Figures.cfm

Below in a previous post I have had on the subject
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http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Advance-Data-Tables-2016_Final.pdf (see page 7, Table 4)

A decade or more ago, the Caribbean was a reasonable path to medicine It isnt the quality of the education in the Caribbean , which is questionable, that is the issue here at all. It is solely the reported (or discernible) match rate of the the graduates and the underlying (and mostly unreported) attrition rate for matriculants which leads to what I call the success rate. That is, if you start medical school, what are the chances you will get a residency slot. I have discussed this at length is several other threads (links below). Essentially, in US MD schools, 94% of students graduate in 5 years going to 97% in 8 years (accounts for dual degree students). Graduating US MD seniors match into residency at 94% with likely 2%-4% getting SOAP slots. Lets say 97% total get positions. So if you start a US MD school, you have an overall 94% chance of earning your degree and getting a residency slot, thus allowing you to eventually practice medicine and pay your loans back. It should also be noted that about 75% of graduating seniors get into one of their top three ranked choices.

Bloomberg has cited from DeVry Medical International (Ross/AUC corporate parent) see link below) that Ross, for example, has about 52% of their students who complete the program and earn a degree. Of these about 85% receive a residency slot. SGU has previously reported about 30% of it graduates go to non-match slots via SOAP, off-cycle, or other mechanisms which essentially means what is ever left open at the end of the match. So if you start Ross, for example, you have an under 45% chance of earning a degree and getting any residency slot. Big risk for several hundred thousands of dollars in loans and less than a 45% chance of practicing medicine.

Additionally, in the table in the link at the top of this post there are some other numbers to be noted that tend to be overlooked: the withdrew and no rank, which are not included of the match/unmatched percentages discussed above (NRMP mixes two totals and two percentage groupings) These are applicants who apply for residency but either withdrew from selection (often for not passing boards) or did not complete the process by submitting a ranking list (often cause they did not get an interview). For the US Seniors, withdrew was 2% and no rank was 0.3%. Adding that to unmatched a total of 7.9% of the applicants who originally applied did not match into a spot. For IMG-US Citizens, if we take all who applied to residency but did not get a slot either by unmatched, withdrew, or no rank, it comes to a whopping 61.5% or nearly 8 times the US percentages.

Just a decade ago, going to the Caribbean was a reasonable path to medicine. Now with the growing number of US-MD graduates and the lack of any real growth in residency slots, squeezes the off-shore grads. With the debt that a student must risk for the losing odds on getting a residency slot, I can no longer recommend off shore schools.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...an-medical-schools-use-federal-funds-loophole
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...pre-med-matriculate-in-the-caribbean.1183556/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/us-md-for-320k-or-img-for-100k.1130221/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/good-chance-at-getting-into-st-georges-should-i-do-it-3-4-overall-gpa-3-55-science-gpa.1133776/#post-16443492
 
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Oh btw : anyone who thinks I'm a troll is more than welcome to believe what they want:) One of the best qualities emphasized in my medical education is compassion and care. Some of those things are lacking in other programs I believe.
 
Med Ed said:
It's not publicly available, but it's called the National Acceptance Report and it's released from AMCAS to participating schools each year so they can better manage their admissions decisions.

Not that it matters.
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You're right, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if John doe has 25 acceptances or just 1. At the very end he is a doctor.
 
Dr.LX said:
You're right, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if John doe has 25 acceptances or just 1. At the very end he is a doctor.
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But if he doesn't match, then he may be a doctor, but he isn't a physician.
 
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Dr.LX said:
Oh btw : anyone who thinks I'm a troll is more than welcome to believe what they want:) One of the best qualities emphasized in my medical education is compassion and care. Some of those things are lacking in other programs I believe.
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  1. Joins today.
  2. Doesn't understand the Carib hate in this forum.
  3. Refers to matching as "accepting a position" (rookie mistake).
  4. Claims to be one of the five US IMGs who matched into derm this year (non R slots).
  5. Clams to have turned down two onshore allopathic schools to attend Ross.
  6. Walks right on up to Burnett's law and looks it in the eye.
Forgive us if we are skeptical.

Edit: Almost forgot, claims that Ross has 10% attrition and a 95% match rate, which, if true, would be crowed from every rooftop in Dominica.
 
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Dr.LX said:
The point we were discussing was how many Carib. med students have other acceptances.
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I know, I'm just making the point that there's more to becoming a physician than getting into medical school for the benefit of readers who might not be as informed (this is a pre-med forum).
 
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Med Ed said:
  1. Joins today.
  2. Doesn't understand the Carib hate in this forum.
  3. Refers to matching as "accepting a position" (rookie mistake).
  4. Claims to be one of the five US IMGs who matched into derm this year (non R slots).
  5. Clams to have turned down two onshore allopathic schools to attend Ross.
  6. Walks right on up to Burnett's law and looks it in the eye.
Forgive us if we are skeptical.
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Feel free to be skeptic! It honestly doesn't affect me. :)
 
WedgeDawg said:
I know, I'm just making the point that there's more to becoming a physician than getting into medical school for the benefit of readers who might not be as informed (this is a pre-med forum).
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I mean I said earlier there was a 95% match rate. This is before the scramble. So I'm glad that future students will see what they're getting into:)
 
http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Ross-...rsity-School-of-Medicine-with-over-40-1093042

This is an interesting read and even provides some examples of lawsuits brought against Ross (that you can verify exist online)

"According to Ross University, only 57% (percent) of Ross University School of Medicine students finished their program. However, no one knows the exact number of students who fail semesters 1 to 4 at Ross University except Ross University.The school refuses to disclose detailed information and this information is critical to prospective students in order to make an informed enrollment decision." Nothing suspicious in witholding data

"Furthermore, many of the data has been published by Ross University or its parent company, Devry Inc., cannot be independently verified and perspective students are given a false perception of the school. Ross University claims that medical students USMLE Step 1 first-time pass rate was over 95%. But a 95% pass rate for 320 students is not the same as a 95% pass rate for 600 students. According to Ross University Student Handbook, to be eligible to take the USMLE Step 1 Exam, a student must have: (1) passed all courses in the basic science curriculum during the first four semesters; (2) have successfully completed the fifth semester AICM course; and (3) have passed National Board of Medical Exams (“NBME’).
When I first started Ross University School of Medicine, we had over 650 students at the white coat ceremony. By the time I was in my 5th semester, there were only 325 students left from the 650 we started out with—a 50% failure rate! Furthermore, those who fail are forced to repeat ALL their classes instead of the one they didn’t pass. So when those students repeat and pass that class, then it looks as if the numbers were larger than they really were. Plus, they are charged over $15,000 per semester for tuition. When the students have to repeat, they have to pay that whole cost again. All this just brings more money into the bureaucrats’ pockets instead of working to help the students learn. Ross University has three enrollment dates per year. The other two enrollments the year I started brought in 650 and 600 students respectively, for a total of 1900 students that year. From those 1900 students, just 900 graduated (there were 900 graduates last year). And from the 900 who graduated, about 500 were matched with a residency program.
Again, when Ross University School of Medicine advertises that its passing rate for USMLE Step 1 is greater than 90%, they fail to mention that almost half of the student who originally enrolled into the program don’t even make it into semester 5."
 
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Dr.LX said:
I mean I said earlier there was a 95% match rate. This is before the scramble. So I'm glad that future students will see what they're getting into:)
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Excuse me, as below Ross themselves reports a 88% "first-attempt residency attainment." If that was match they would have clearly said so as I have never seen that phrasing anywhere else. SGU has reported between 25%-30% SOAP and other non match methods. It is reasonable to see Ross as similar. At best, Ross has a 65% match rate, which does say anything as to what they are matching in. With evidence now from 2 methods that Ross has 50% attrition (see my post above). That would mean about 30%-35% of starting Ross students, earning a degree and actually matching into any slot.

Lets even model more this and be generous and say half of those match into reasonably competitive slots. So that is now about 15% or so of Ross students who start, earning a degree, and matching into a reasonably competitive slot.

Now as a physician, would you recommend to a patient to have a under 20% chance of getting a very good outcome over the risk hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt for mediocre outcomes or fully negative outcomes with no chance regain lost debt?


http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/Facts-and-Figures.cfm
RESIDENCY ATTAINMENT RATE: In 2015, the first-attempt residency attainment rate for RUSM students was 88 percent.
 
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Med Ed said:
One (and a half) more questions. Did you match PGY-1 or PGY-2 for derm? If PGY-2, did you have any trouble landing an intern year?
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The program i'm doing is PGY-1 medicine year, then PGY-2 derm at same hospital for the last 3 years. No problem at all. It was my top choice.
 
You might have had me until the part about turning down 2 US MD schools
 
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GrapesofRath said:
You might have had me until the part about turning down 2 US MD schools
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Good thing I didn't need to "have you". The prevailing attitude that turning down an MD acceptance to go abroad is wrong is outdated.
 
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http://www.tampabay.com/news/health...e-quality-of-offshore-medical-schools/1061189 (Just offering different perspectives)

The situation is different for Amer Alata, who got his M.D. from Ross in 2007, then quickly washed out of an internal medicine residency — and his prospects of becoming a physician. Now saddled with $470,000 in debt, he's teaching part-time but has never been able to afford a payment, making him one of Ross' official defaults.

Students doing clinicals in the States continue paying tuition to Ross, which at more than $30,000 a year is comparable to that at private U.S. medical schools. Yet Ross students say they have virtually no contact with the school's faculty. That means they're on their own if problems arise.

Alata, the Detroit-area graduate, said he had a six-week psychiatry rotation supervised by a surgeon. "He gave me an assignment on cardiovascular disorders," Alata said. "I never had the opportunity to interview a psychiatric patient. There was no clinical experience whatsoever."

Alata said he received "very high evaluations'' from supervisors during his clinical rotations in Miami, New York and Chicago and passed his mandatory USMLE Step 2 exam.

But three weeks into a residency in internal medicine and pediatrics at Virginia Commonwealth University School of Medicine, Alata was suspended from all clinical activities because of poor performance. A few months later he voluntarily withdrew.

But Dr. Peter Fabri, former dean of graduate medical education at USF College of Medicine, said his school has had a different experience.

"The quality of clinical education Ross students get is very, very unpredictable," said Fabri, a professor of surgery who retired as dean in September. "We've had some Ross students whom I'm told are superb, but we've also had a number from Ross who ended up being dismissed because they just didn't have it. And it's rare that any residents are dismissed."
 
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Mansamusa said:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/health...e-quality-of-offshore-medical-schools/1061189 (Just offering different perspectives)

The situation is different for Amer Alata, who got his M.D. from Ross in 2007, then quickly washed out of an internal medicine residency — and his prospects of becoming a physician. Now saddled with $470,000 in debt, he's teaching part-time but has never been able to afford a payment, making him one of Ross' official defaults.

Students doing clinicals in the States continue paying tuition to Ross, which at more than $30,000 a year is comparable to that at private U.S. medical schools. Yet Ross students say they have virtually no contact with the school's faculty. That means they're on their own if problems arise.

Alata, the Detroit-area graduate, said he had a six-week psychiatry rotation supervised by a surgeon. "He gave me an assignment on cardiovascular disorders," Alata said. "I never had the opportunity to interview a psychiatric patient. There was no clinical experience whatsoever."

Alata said he received "very high evaluations'' from supervisors during his clinical rotations in Miami, New York and Chicago and passed his mandatory USMLE Step 2 exam.

But three weeks into a residency in internal medicine and pediatrics at Virginia Commonwealth University School of Medicine, Alata was suspended from all clinical activities because of poor performance. A few months later he voluntarily withdrew.
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This is kind of ridiculous now lol. Yeah give me an example of 1 out of thousands. You don't think people should get a degree in the Carib. I get it. I disagree, and am extremely proud of my future career :)
 
Dr.LX said:
This is kind of ridiculous now lol. Yeah give me an example of 1 out of thousands. You don't think people should get a degree in the Carib. I get it. I disagree, and am extremely proud of my future career :)
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Not to be rude, and I mean this in the most neutral way possible, but isn't that more or less exactly what you're doing with this thread?
 
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WedgeDawg said:
Not to be rude, and I mean this in the most neutral way possible, but isn't that more or less exactly what you're doing with this thread?
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Treating a physician with his own medicine is rather poetic justice, you 'Dawg
 
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Dr.LX said:
You're right, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if John doe has 25 acceptances or just 1. At the very end he is a doctor.
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Not if he doesn't match he ain't.
 
WedgeDawg said:
Not to be rude, and I mean this in the most neutral way possible, but isn't that more or less exactly what you're doing with this thread?
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The difference is that the majority of people take other's examples, or make their own assumptions on this forum and use those to explain why people shouldn't go abroad. I came here to offer my OWN experience, and because there are a lot of pre-meds that have questions. The fact that people were shocked that I gave up a US med school spot for Ross means there is a lot of work that needs to be done to change stereotypes. But thank you for being polite:)
 
Dr.LX said:
This is kind of ridiculous now lol. Yeah give me an example of 1 out of thousands. You don't think people should get a degree in the Carib. I get it. I disagree, and am extremely proud of my future career :)
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Nobody is saying you shouldn't be proud, in fact we congratulate you for beating the odds, but don't preach to impressionable premeds that the odds are in their favor.
 
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Dr.LX said:
This is kind of ridiculous now lol. Yeah give me an example of 1 out of thousands. You don't think people should get a degree in the Carib. I get it. I disagree, and am extremely proud of my future career :)
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You keep saying that you are just offering your own experiences, so I think it makes sense to share the experiences of others as well. It's much more informative that way.

And I am sincerely glad for your success, but let's not pretend that what you have done is common or likely for anyone who enrolls at Ross
 
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For anyone with legitimate questions, or anyone that wants to have a polite conversation on here, I am more than happy to discuss with you guys! Everyone else is free to post whatever they would like on here, and discuss with each other.
 
Dr.LX said:
On Studentdoc the Caribbean poses a "risk". In real life, it doesn't. I was actually accepted to 2 M.D schools, but because money wasn't a factor for me, and I wanted a different experience, I chose Ross. It wasn't a "second choice" for me. I studied hard like all med students, and most of my close friends got into competitive residencies. I lived in paradise for 2 years, and had a world class education for 4. I would advise premeds to do what they feel like they should.
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lol

Dr.LX said:
Thank you for being sweet and polite! My step score was good, but not the best like what you would expect for derm. My class was very competitive, so even though I wasn't at the top, I still had a good academic record. I actually talked a lot about my decision to decline to go to a US medical school in my interviews. They were impressed that I enjoyed my time abroad, and I think that opened a lot of their minds to the fact that the Caribbean isn't a bad choice:)
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you sound like you're selling timeshares
 
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Dr.LX said:
The difference is that the majority of people take other's examples, or make their own assumptions on this forum and use those to explain why people shouldn't go abroad. I came here to offer my OWN experience, and because there are a lot of pre-meds that have questions. The fact that people were shocked that I gave up a US med school spot for Ross means there is a lot of work that needs to be done to change stereotypes. But thank you for being polite:)
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As @WedgeDawg said in his exposé above, going to med school abroad is not the issue...except if you plan on practicing in the US. Then it becomes an uphill battle. Med school is tough enough on its own, no need to stack the deck against oneself by going to the Caribbean. Once someone is an attending, they can take all the vacations abroad that they want.
 
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eteshoe said:
As @WedgeDawg said in his exposé above, going to med school abroad is not the issue...except if you plan on practicing in the US. Then it becomes an uphill battle. Med school is tough enough on its own, no need to stack the deck against oneself by going to the Caribbean. Once someone is an attending, they can take all the vacations abroad that they want.
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I have already typed this many times: the match rate for my class was greater than 95%. So I wouldn't call it an uphill battle.
 
I have a actual, real question. Did any of your colleagues/friends/family question your decision of a Caribbean acceptance over the other 2 stateside MD's?
 
If crossposting was allowed, I wonder how the derm board would react to this.
 
Dr.LX said:
I have already typed this many times: the match rate for my class was greater than 95%. So I wouldn't call it an uphill battle.
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Okay, here is a legitimate question: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pre...s-enforcement-action-against-devry-university
There is a lawsuit against Devry for using false information and statistics in order to deceive prospective students. Do you think these practices leak over to the administration at Ross whose parent company is Devry? If not, what evidence do you have to that reasoning? If Devry is shut down, how do you think that will effect Ross?

In light of this action against Devry and the recent crackdown on for-profit schools, do you think there is a risk of Ross students losing the ability to take out federal loans?

Why have the school in the Carib if rotations are done in the US? Wouldn't it be easier for schooling to be done all in the same country?
 
BeaverLover said:
I have a actual, real question. Did any of your colleagues/friends/family question your decision of a Caribbean acceptance over the other 2 stateside MD's?
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The ones that were unfamiliar with the Caribbean were concerned about me moving. Once they learned about it they were for it. My dad, who is also a physician, told me that I should do whatever I felt was right for me. We only have one life.
 
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