Chapter 31 "Qualifying for Voc-Rehab" Journey

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Evolving Update:

Some folks (including myself) have experienced a broken "paper trail" when it comes to the school billing the VA for book supplies. I have just learned of a new document that you may receive from you Chapter 31 counselor that can easily reimburse you a bit faster than simply keeping a receipt (as the receipts made by the school would/should be tide into your benefits regardless if it was covered by the VA or not).

It's called a 28-1908m VA-form and is explicitly for reimbursement of school material (attached): Just another FYI I have learned while continuing to my last year under the Voc-Rehab Journey.

If you have a super nice VRC, they will send these to you pre-filled out for some items :D . I know my old VRC did this for things like my MCAT. It doesn't take long to fill out, however. Good catch making sure folks are using this form.

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Benefits Update - Transition of VR&E Journey

Since the VR&E and GI Bill update was implemented April 1st (VR&E no longer count against GI Bill Education), I thought I'd check out any updates on my portal and see if my GI Bill was 100% reinstated since I started my journey without touching so much as 1 day of my post 9-11 (especially since I will be starting my 1 year rotations in less than 2 weeks). I am glad to report the following has now been updated on my portal:


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Considering I have now used my VR&E benefits coming up on 22 months straight, it is nice to know I have more than enough "back-up benefits" to push me through residencies once the time comes. Soon I'll do an update on how my BAH pay-outs work while doing 6-week rotations throughout my last year of school. I now directly work with my VR&E counselor and have somewhat isolated my school certifier for the time being.
 
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So with Congress changing the rules of VR&E no longer taking away time from the post 9/11, I wanted to send yet another update on my journey with the appropriated time-stamp to see where this goes: [due to limited information with this new benefit, I hope it somewhat serves its purpose]

1) I will have successfully used VR&E (31) throughout all of my professional schooling (pharmacy) and am set to graduate May 21st 2022. Per Voc Rehab counselor, I have already pre-planned licensure/exam material coverage well after graduation.

2) I have accepted a PGY-1 at a medical center in the midwest that has a start date of June 13th 2022.

3) Upon confirmation, I have 100% of my post 9/11 (33) and by way of e-benefits portal, I can successfully invoke my benefits for housing allowance.

Now....an interesting turn of events: I have put a "clause" in my original case back in 2019 when I was first accepted for my Doctor of Pharmacy, that I would need accommodations upon graduation that would suit such an environment (such as residency) to fulfill my employment obligations. Due to pandemic and career scale changes across the country, I was able to get a verbal extension of my VR&E benefits to continue onward to residency without touching my post 9/11 (as we all know...if its not on paper, it doesnt exist).

Currently, the medical center I will be joining does not have a VA certifying official so my communication between my current voc-rehab counselor and a nearby university of said-hospital is currently going on to figure out the easiest way to extend my housing and other benefits while claiming my "current" housing allowance after graduation (and prior to starting in june). More to follow.

The following has been discussed:

1) Since my residency placement is considered "training status" and was done (obtained) through my current program and certifying official, there is a chance I can hang on to my current VA official and use the school as my home-base for my extension of studies in the Midwest. The regulations do not specify if my housing allowance would be based on my new "year long rotation site" in the Midwest, or if I can keep my higher housing allowance at my current site. My argument was that my current student rotations were done in a different location during my schooling and not near the school base itself (yet I still earned the higher housing allowance of my current university). More to follow when a verdict has been decided.

2) Do a contract agreement with a nearby VA Certifying Official that is located at a university just a few miles from my residency site. By virtue, I would receive the new housing allowance based on the location of that university vs the medical center (same town so no situation with that). However, documentation would be needed to do an agreement of certification that needs to take place between my Residency Director, Certifying Official, and my current voc-rehab counselor. More to follow -

3) If for any reason the verbal agreement of extension is denied, I would default to the post 9/11 and invoke its benefits. However, the overlap between housing from VR&E and post 9/11 will need to be discussed (this is a worse-case scenario that I do not believe would take place).

As usual, I will report my updates as the next few months progress....After this, perhaps I will put this thread to its final conclusion depending on how these results pan out.....I hope this serves as a learning tool for future veterans who may be in the situation of using their benefits beyond their professional schooling.

- The journey continues
 
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I've been fighting that battle for the past 2 years.

Would appreciate others' input here on what you would do.

I requested coverage for residency (I'm halfway through a 4 year program) and has been denied 4 times (by VRC, HLR, Supplemental, and another HLR - in that order).

Of note, both HLRs were denied by the same person, and he Supplemental was denied by my old VRC who was promoted into a VRO position (and ironically is no longer with VRE now - just 2 months after denying me).

I feel I have a strong case for an appeal given the training status, and think I may very well win the appeal (but obviously there is no guarantee) - however.... (here's where I'd like input)...

The April 1 change leaves me with my GI Bill again (sans 2 semesters of use). (about 29 months), and the STEM extension recently underwent changes that allows for residency (someone here was just approved recently) which could add another 9 months for a total of 38 months of GI Bill benefits.

If I use the GI Bill (guaranteed), I can collect for all but 10 months of residency, but that's that. But again, it's guaranteed and I don't need to fight.

If I appeal, I have the chance to get all 48 months covered (a difference of about $25k-$27k for my area), and still have the GI Bill to use later (am considering another degree after residency). The kicker is that I got out before Jan 1 2013, thus have a delimiting date of mid 2027. I don't know that I'd be able to use up the entirety of the GI Bill given I'd very likely only be part-time status, and most likely online (maybe with a small resident component that likely would not qualify for full BAH relative to rate of the term), and thus may not be able to use it up in it's entirety due to less than full time rate of pursuit and only about 3 years to use nearly 3 years of GI Bill, and would fall under the STEM extension (though irrelevant given delimiting timeframe).

The issue is that appeals are taking multiple years to be completed, and unless I do another supplemental just to get more information included, then I'd need to file an incomplete appeal which gives a 90-day window to send in info (and this path of appeal takes longer than a fully formed appeal). If I appeal and lose, then I'd still have GI Bill for later, but realistically I'd get more $$ via BAH (full) while in residency with the STEM extension than I would in dollar value of education costs with online BAH/stipend, and I'd be too far out to back date it for most of residency.



Curious... would you cut your "losses" and use GI bill for residency with STEM extension, or try for the appeal where there is a decent likelihood but no guarantee and a tight window to use GI bill?
 
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To add... if I didn't have a delimiting date (ie forever GI bill), I'd appeal for sure because I wouldn't feel rushed to try to use up my GI bill after residency and could surely use up the whole thing and make it worth it (ie at least about equal) even if I lost the appeal, so there would only be something to gain.

One thing "easing" me on "just" using GI bill now is that some (?many) employers may also help fund an additional degree as an employee benefit.
 
To add... if I didn't have a delimiting date (ie forever GI bill), I'd appeal for sure because I wouldn't feel rushed to try to use up my GI bill after residency and could surely use up the whole thing and make it worth it (ie at least about equal) even if I lost the appeal, so there would only be something to gain.

One thing "easing" me on "just" using GI bill now is that some (?many) employers may also help fund an additional degree as an employee benefit.
I would go with the GI bill. I thought I was completely justified when I appealed my stem extension denial and was summarily denied. The VA is tricky to deal with as you know. Do you have to abandon your appeal if you apply for GI bill benefits?
 
I would go with the GI bill. I thought I was completely justified when I appealed my stem extension denial and was summarily denied. The VA is tricky to deal with as you know. Do you have to abandon your appeal if you apply for GI bill benefits?

I dont necessarily think I'd need to abandon an appeal, but I wonder if/how it would affect me if I use up the GI bill during this period (i.e. affect whether they approve it or not) and if approved - I'd incur a debt for what was paid out (wouldn't be a big deal as I'd get back pay for VRE in that case). However, if I continue with the appeal but use up the GI bill in the process, then I'll have no GI bill to use for later until the appeal is over (which would probably be too close to or past my delimiting date. All in all the net difference would be about $22k-23k - is that worth the fight with the VA when it's not even a guarantee? I could just hold the GI bill and start another degree after residency while doing the appeal and if I win, best of both worlds, but if I lose, then would have gotten less out of the GI bill using it for school part time after residency that I'd have gotten out of it using it for BAH in residency.

I'm a bit mixed, because I completely get what you mean. Despite it being seemingly straight forward and obvious, you just never know with the VA.
 
I dont necessarily think I'd need to abandon an appeal, but I wonder if/how it would affect me if I use up the GI bill during this period (i.e. affect whether they approve it or not) and if approved - I'd incur a debt for what was paid out (wouldn't be a big deal as I'd get back pay for VRE in that case). However, if I continue with the appeal but use up the GI bill in the process, then I'll have no GI bill to use for later until the appeal is over (which would probably be too close to or past my delimiting date. All in all the net difference would be about $22k-23k - is that worth the fight with the VA when it's not even a guarantee? I could just hold the GI bill and start another degree after residency while doing the appeal and if I win, best of both worlds, but if I lose, then would have gotten less out of the GI bill using it for school part time after residency that I'd have gotten out of it using it for BAH in residency.

I'm a bit mixed, because I completely get what you mean. Despite it being seemingly straight forward and obvious, you just never know with the VA.

I mean you've already been denied 4 times, so I'm not sure how you can have any confidence that it would be approved. You don't specify what type of appeal you currently have submitted so I'm not sure of the timeline.

Re: GI Bill. If you're halfway through a four year program then you're looking 24 months of benefits and you said you have 29 months of GI bill left. Would you try to have it applied retroactively? I know it applies from the application date, but you haven't indicated that you have applied for the GI Bill. I didn't know you could apply further back than that.

If the stars align and you get your VA appeal approved then you're golden, you get retroactive coverage and coverage for the rest of your residency and you can keep your GI bill for some future maybe degree (before your expiration degree). If your VA appeal is denied say a year from now, then you can apply for GI bill and use it for the last year of residency and with a lot leftover (for maybe a degree). If your VA appeal is denied after or close to when you finish residency, then the GI Bill is still intact but if you don't get another degree before the expiration date then it's all wasted and that's a lot of unused benefits.

I didn't even attempt to get VRC to cover residency as the final outcome for my plan was to get a residency and it ended at that. I was already so grateful to get the benefits that I didn't fight that determination. One day I was bored and I calculated out the total benefits that I got from the VA (not even counting the disability benefits and free healthcare I'm still getting) and I think it was like $500K. For 5.5 years of service I definitely felt like I got the better deal so I was happy to just be able to use my GI bill benefits in residency and live like a boss compared to my fellow residents. YMMV of course.
 
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Re: the confidence of approval is that an appeal will be done with a veteran law judge. I haven’t appealed before - just a supplemental claim and higher level review (and the initial denial from the VRC who is brand new). The M28R covers residency (literally states that it recognizes medical residency as an institution course and May be approved as such, and states that a VRC must review the IWRP annually and conduct a job analysis which includes ensuring all required licenses and certifications are included or the IWRP must be amended to include them. The office that has denied me cited their denial as that I am “permanently employed” and that’s it. Maybe I’m being overly hopeful that a veteran law judge actually understands what they’re there to enforce?

GI bill can be retroactively applied up to 1 year prior to the application date, so can be dated to about mid PGY1 for me.

The issue is that appeals are taking multiple years currently where my concern comes from and this this post).

Im leaning toward just using GI bill like you suggest, along with the appeal (been told it could take 2-4 years).
 
Re: the confidence of approval is that an appeal will be done with a veteran law judge. I haven’t appealed before - just a supplemental claim and higher level review (and the initial denial from the VRC who is brand new). The M28R covers residency (literally states that it recognizes medical residency as an institution course and May be approved as such, and states that a VRC must review the IWRP annually and conduct a job analysis which includes ensuring all required licenses and certifications are included or the IWRP must be amended to include them. The office that has denied me cited their denial as that I am “permanently employed” and that’s it. Maybe I’m being overly hopeful that a veteran law judge actually understands what they’re there to enforce?

GI bill can be retroactively applied up to 1 year prior to the application date, so can be dated to about mid PGY1 for me.

The issue is that appeals are taking multiple years currently where my concern comes from and this this post).

Im leaning toward just using GI bill like you suggest, along with the appeal (been told it could take 2-4 years).

So maybe if your appeal is approved you can get the GI Bill restored as the benefits they would give are the same as you already partially received with GI Bill. Who knows though, it's way beyond my pay grade. Do you have a lawyer or some veterans benefit expert assisting you at all? They might be able to give you advice on the implications if you use your GI bill and the appeal is accepted.
 
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So maybe if your appeal is approved you can get the GI Bill restored as the benefits they would give are the same as you already partially received with GI Bill. Who knows though, it's way beyond my pay grade. Do you have a lawyer or some veterans benefit expert assisting you at all? They might be able to give you advice on the implications if you use your GI bill and the appeal is accepted.

I'll see if I can consult someone on it.
 
From the time you left the service to the very first time you started school (part time or fulltime), how many months/years was in between those timelines? I don't recall specific details you may have put out in the past (or maybe you didn't), but were you P&T/PDRL or TDRL for a certain period of time after you left active duty? If so, what was your original SC disability percentage and has the status changed? For example, were you out on TDRL at 50% but later transferred over to the permanent retired list and increased to 70%?

The reason I ask is you may have the ability to argue for an extension of your GI Bill benefits. If you did not go straight to school after the service, you might be able to argue a disability claim that you were not capable (for XXX amount of time) to attend any level of schooling. This can be shown by evidence of a low income status right after the military (especially if its solely your pension) and any pending/finalized disability claims you had going for you as you exited out of the service. For every month you can verify this, you can get those extra months-worth of extensions while you pursue for an appeal. Then, as time goes, you can see a better timeline as to when you can/need to retroactively use your GI Bill.

However, it's just a way to stall things out. If you've done a supplemental claim with an HLR and have been denied multiple times, I would wonder what else you can tangibly add to your file that would make your overall situation more pertinent? If you did the appeal, it almost sounds like to me that your claim depends on the interpretation and "verbiage" between the VRC/VROs & the soon-to-be veteran law judge which is honestly an argument over semantics (which might be what is needed...if that's the case I could see the appeal NOT taking multiple years but rather a speedy process of acceptance or denial since it's all about vocabulary and not so much about your own capable/incapable status).

I am not sure what specific overall career goal/additional degrees you wish to obtain beyond a residency so it's hard to decide how much worth-is-actually-worth it. At face value, I would simply go with the GI Bill with the hopes of the 9 month STEM extension. The only other reason I would roll the dice is if I honestly felt the appeal-argument is over semantics (verbiage) and not the actual situation (deemed employable for job-entry status). Again though, if that's the case, you should know fairly quickly if its a denial or acceptance as soon as it hits the judges hands (I'm talking within the year of PGY1 at latest). Then again, I am not a lawyer/legal advisor and this is truly one of those "upper-pyramid situations" very few people get involved with as these new regulations are rolled out.

I'd be interested to hear what you end up choosing and how it goes -

TLDR; Do GI Bill route unless you believe the appeal process is over vocabulary & not the reality of the issue; See if you qualify for GI Bill extension.
 
So to add some clarity and answer some of the questions:

In my state, you must have completed PGY-2 to become licensed, and you're not required to have a license in residency. We receive a medical permit after completing PGY-1 and can use that for the rest of residency, just can't moonlight.

What I have that wasn't present before: a notarized letter from the state medical board through the office of the attorney general stating that I'm in a training program and that I am an unlicensed physician, as well as a copy of my contract that states that I'm in a temporary training program with an end date in 2024.

Couple of quick notes:
- the IWRP is supposed to be reviewed each year, but mine hasn't been reviewed since 2017.
- I requested a phone discussion with my counselor on this topic, but she never replied - I only got a letter in the mail about 2 weeks later of a denial.
- She never completed a job analysis, and listed below it states the requirements of the VRC are to utilize the OOH (below) and essentially check directly with employers if they're not sure of the requirements - the OOH states the residency is required for licensure and certification. The M28R states that those requirements must met and must include any required certifications and/or licenses for employment.
- On that note, the M28R also states that salary and earnings should also be matched to what's expected (also below). Resident's aren't salaried, we receive a stipend to offset costs during training since it's full time. Salary is paid for either hours, work, or production, or a combo often based on a set minimum if not paid hourly. For us, it doesnt matter how much or little we do, it's the same, and we have no control. And if fired or need a leave and don't have a spot reserved, we're SOL. And a W-2 doesn't mean employment either. It just means what we receive is taxable, and stiwpdents can still be taxable in other fields/ways too. Therefore, resident stipends are not equivocal for the expected pay of the field.
- Their sole reasons for denying me are based on me being "permanently employed" and because I've been in the program for more than the allotted time (designed with SEH). Being I have SEH, that time is irrelevant. And I don't need to explain to any of you that residency is temporary training lol.
- Lastly, the M28R directly refers to the 38 CFR. I quoted the 38 CFR at the bottom. It literally specifies that residency is recognized as an institution course so long as it is accredited by an appropriate body, which it further lays out as including ACGME, AOA, and a couple for Pod and Dental I think.



All in all, each denial was copy and pasted from the previous, and none touch on my statements or any of this information I provided. The veteran law judge should understand this language and hopefully not be as ignorant to the case. I've never spoken to my 'current' VRC on the phone, zoom, in person, anything. Only by email. And no phone calls despite multiple requests at various points. She was my VRC for about 7-9 months before school ended as my old one was promoted and then eventually left VRE.


________

- M28R, Part V, Section A, Chapter 2 (Program Assistance):
  • 2.06 (Adjusting the Rehabilitation Plan)
    • (d): Review of the Individual Written Rehabilitation Plan (IWRP)
    • The VRC and the Veteran will periodically review and evaluate the IWRP. A comprehensive review will be conducted at least once every 12 months (38 CFR 21.96) and will be annotated on the IWRP. Review may result in no change to the plan, an amendment, or redevelopment of the plan.

_______
- M28R, Part VI, Section A, Chapter 4: Job Readiness, Development, And Placement Services:
  • 4.03 Job Readiness:
    • (b): Requirements:
      • “It is the Vocational Rehabilitation Counselor’s (VRC) responsibility to make a determination for declaring a Veteran job ready before he/she is provided employment services. The determination must include the following verifications:“
      • 1. Documentation such as a diploma, certification from a training facility or transcript of records that demonstrate the Veteran has completed the education or other training outlined in his/her Individualized Written Rehabilitation Plan (IWRP).
      • 2. Completion of any required certification or license.
      • 3. No barriers, such as disability conditions, family situations, etc., exist that may prevent the Veteran from obtaining or maintaining suitable employment.
      • 4. Possession of job-seeking skills.
    • (d): Documentation for Job Ready Declaration
      • “It is the VRC’s responsibility to assess the Veteran’s job readiness and make a formal declaration of job readiness upon completion of the IWRP. The VRC must accurately and clearly justify and document the declaration of the Veteran’s job readiness on VAF 28-1905d, Special Report of Training (See Appendix O. VA Forms), or CWINRS Notes. The narrative must clearly explain that there are no impediments in the Veteran’s ability to obtain or maintain suitable employment. This documentation must be filed in the middle flap of the Counseling/Evaluation/Rehabilitation (CER) folder.”
    • (g): Veteran Determined Not Job Ready
      • “If a case manager determines that the Veteran is not currently job ready, the case manager must work with the Veteran to determine the services he/she needs to become ready to obtain or maintain suitable employment. Once the services are identified, the case manager must modify the Veteran’s IWRP to include the additional services to be provided.

  • 4.04 Job Placement:
    • (a): Direct Placement Service
      • “This requires the case manager’s active involvement and personal intervention with employer on behalf of the Veteran. Direct job placement occurs within a network that involves employers, employees and service providers.”
      • “Direct placement entails the following activities: Matching the Veteran’s needs, abilities and aspirations to the demands, salary and other characteristics of a specific employment objective”

  • 4.05 Job Analysis:
    • (a): General Information
      • Job analysis is an essential aspect of direct placement. It is a process used to identify and determine the particular job duties and requirements, and the relative importance of these duties for a given job. An important concept is that the analysis is conducted on the specifics of the job, not the person performing the duties of the job. Job analysis is particularly useful when dealing with small businesses, as many of the jobs in this setting have a variety of ancillary duties.”
    • (b): Methodology
      • “A case manager may need to conduct an on-site analysis of a prospective job when precise information about job task requirements and the work environment are not known. A job analysis should identify the following factors of a job:”
        • “8. Education, experience, license and/or certification requirements.”
    • (c): Job Profile
      • “A case manager may utilize the Dictionary of Occupational Titles (DOT) and the Occupational Outlook Handbook (OOH) to identify several aspects of an occupation, to include:”
        • Training and education requirements"
        • Earnings

_____________

Per the OOH directly from the BLS.GOV website, regarding the occupation of “Physicians and Surgeons:”
  • Education
  • “In addition to requiring a bachelor’s degree, physicians and surgeons typically need either a Medical Doctor (M.D.) or a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.) degree. No specific undergraduate degree is required to enter an M.D. or D.O. program, but applicants to medical school usually have studied subjects such as biology, physical science, or healthcare and related fields.”
  • Training:
  • After medical school, almost all graduates enter a residency program in their specialty of interest. A residency usually takes place in a hospital or clinic and varies in duration, typically lasting from 3 to 9 years, depending on the specialty. Subspecialization, such as infectious diseases or hand surgery, includes additional training in a fellowship of 1 to 3 years.”
  • Licensure, Certifications, and Registrations:
  • All states require physicians and surgeons to be licensed; requirements vary by state. To qualify for a license, candidates must graduate from an accredited medical school and complete residency training in their specialty.”
“Licensure requirements include passing standardized national exams. M.D.s take the U.S. Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE). D.O.s take the Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Licensing Examination (COMLEX-USA). For specific state information about licensing, contact your state’s medical board.”




________

- M28R, Part V, Section A, Chapter 2 (Program Assistance):
  • 2.04 (Course and Program Length):
    • Full and part-time training for Veterans in the Chapter 31 program is measured under 38 CFR 21.310 (also see 38 CFR 21.4270 through 21.4275); unless a physician determines that the Veteran’s disabilities reduce his/her ability to pursue a program (see 38 CFR 21.312).”


38 CFR subsections directly referred to by the M28R above:


“§ 21.4270 Measurement of courses:” … “(c) Undergraduate, graduate, professional, and on-the-job training courses. Collegiate graduate, professional and on-the-job training courses shall be measured as stated in this table. This shall be used for measurement of collegiate undergraduate courses subject to all the measurement criteria of § 21.4272. Clock hours and sessions mentioned in this table mean clock hours and class sessions per week.”


“§ 21.4275 Practical training courses; measurement: (a) Medical and dental residencies and osteopathic internships and residencies. VA will measure medical and dental residencies, and osteopathic internships and residencies as provided in § 21.4270(c) of this part if they are accredited and approved in accordance with § 21.4265(a) of this part.”


“§ 21.4265(a) as referenced in 38 CFR § 21.4275: “Practical training approved as institutional training or on-job training:”
  • Medical-dental internships and residencies.
    • (1) Medical residencies (other than residencies in podiatric medicine), dental residencies, and osteopathic internships and residencies may be approved and recognized as institutional coursesonly when an appropriate accrediting agency accredits and approves them as leading to certification for a recognized professional objective.
    • (2) The appropriate accrediting agencies are:
      • (i) The Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education, or where the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education has delegated accrediting authority, the appropriate Residency Review Committee,
      • (ii) The American Osteopathic Association, and
      • (iii) The Commission on Dental Accreditation of the American Dental Association.
    • (3) These residency programs
      • (i) Must lead to certification by an appropriate Specialty or Subspecialty Board, the American Osteopathic Association, or the American Dental Association; and
      • (ii) Will not be approved to include a period of practice following completion of the education requirements even though the accrediting agency requires the practice.
    • (4) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(5) of this section, no other medical or dental residency or osteopathic internship or residency will be approved or recognized as institutional training.
    • (5) A residency in podiatric medicine may be approved and recognized as institutional training only when it has been approved by the Council on Podiatry Education of the American Podiatry Association.”
 
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Also, any job listing lists licensure eligibility, completion of residency, and board eligible/certified as requirements - including USA JOBs which is the VA.

Oh and I also requested to speak to the supervisor multiple times, and they said no, that my counselor will contact me, and in the email I also stated that she referred me up the chain already citing that she can't/won't help further, which is an issue in and of itself IMO, which is why I wanted the VRO.

I hope this above post gives you some clarity as to where my concerns are with the process. I've been gathering this information and reading through the 38 CFR and M28R quite a bit prepping for getting this information to them intermittently for the past 2 years while going back and forth with emails and the claims.

I also hope that putting this info here, even though its a little abbreviated, will help someone from the get-go with getting everything approved.




As for the additional degrees: I'm considering an MPH and getting involved with policy later.

I started using the GI bill immediately upon d/c from active duty for a short bit before VRE. I was rated shortly after d/c as well, receiving the % while in 1st year of undergrad.
 
Oh and that last part they repeat is that I "completed my IWRP" - which is true, but the IWRP was not reviewed since 2017 as mentioned, and was never afforded the opportunity to discuss the looming training, or the M28R/38 CFR which states licenses and certs must be included and thus IWRP must be amended to include if not already there as mentioned above.
 
Nice details!

I definitely agree that the avoidance of an annual IWRP review (mine was simply a 3 minute phone call once a year from my VRC) is a short-fall on their part, and yet I have seen the argument of simply the VRC stating at the beginning "reach out if you have questions or if your status changes" as a means of satisfying that clause (it's a weak argument and incorrect, but you never know what they put in the file/folder).

As far as the other points underlined in the OOH/job analysis (as no doubt it's common knowledge that a MD/DO graduate needs a residency), just based on what you've provided seems sufficient enough to pursue the cause.

I personally would pay a consultant fee for an attorney to give the needed legal advice as it seems you do have a good case (above and beyond what most veterans know). Depending what they say (chances of success) may be the best avenue. Otherwise, I am a bit weary if grabbing an extra $20k is worth the headache and possible rejection just by the nature of the associates/reps that are trying to get a handle on these new changes and trying to teach an old-dog-new-tricks.

Side Note - If you do decide to seek consultation, I'd love to hear what they had to say and if you decide to grind on through the process (especially since it'll deal with a veteran judge).
 
Nice details!

I definitely agree that the avoidance of an annual IWRP review (mine was simply a 3 minute phone call once a year from my VRC) is a short-fall on their part, and yet I have seen the argument of simply the VRC stating at the beginning "reach out if you have questions or if your status changes" as a means of satisfying that clause (it's a weak argument and incorrect, but you never know what they put in the file/folder).

As far as the other points underlined in the OOH/job analysis (as no doubt it's common knowledge that a MD/DO graduate needs a residency), just based on what you've provided seems sufficient enough to pursue the cause.

I personally would pay a consultant fee for an attorney to give the needed legal advice as it seems you do have a good case (above and beyond what most veterans know). Depending what they say (chances of success) may be the best avenue. Otherwise, I am a bit weary if grabbing an extra $20k is worth the headache and possible rejection just by the nature of the associates/reps that are trying to get a handle on these new changes and trying to teach an old-dog-new-tricks.

Side Note - If you do decide to seek consultation, I'd love to hear what they had to say and if you decide to grind on through the process (especially since it'll deal with a veteran judge).
Hey can you guys help me? I am fighting the system right now. I was denied twice for the most bull**** reasons. You would think that the system would be designed to help disabled veterans succeed. HA. no. it is designed so they can do the least amount possible.

I need clarification on the word "interests" and the term "employability".

NOw they denied me the first time because I was too injuried. They only tried to help me because i went to the doctor.

The doctor said he thought it would be okay for me to go to school. well the supervisor of my counselor thought that meant I wasnt eligible for the program because I couldnt be employed. It iss like they are just trying to make up as many reasons as possible to deny me. I think it is racially motivated in my opinion.

My problems is they say I have tranferable skills, yet they refuse to articulate what those actually are when questioned. I have three degrees all related to the military. AAS geospatial intelligence, BA international relations, MA intelligence studies.

It alot of wasted paper without the security clearance. I spent three years attempting all types of employment. Even with a schedule A letter. Nothing... I got one position as a Geographical informations systems analyst. I was then fire after two months for being underskilled and asking too many questions.

To the VRE rep this meant I was marketable. Which to me is completely delusional. His supervisor said they wouldnt let me use education in the process unless I had exhuasted the employment option. When I asked them how long would they make me do that they refused to answer.

I asked them what job my MA in intelligence would transfer to and they refused to answer.

Like I have exhuasted all the stupid employment options already before seeing these people. I tried admin, I tried schedule a, I tried internaitonal relations, GIS, and intelligence. I tried every single contracting company asking them in the kindest way possible to please sponsor a struggling veteran.

I was lucky to get an email say sorry we cant help.

Im done. I want to change my career. I took their stupid career assessment test. It said I should do medicine. Now I am in school doing the pre reqs for either med school or PA school. Gonna apply to both.

Please help me out here. one thing I noticed is no one cares about how I feel. like when I mentioned to the superviser that my previous job causes me depression, doesnt make me happy, and makes my health worse she laughed at me.

She is a terrible supervisor and terrible person to not listen to anything I had to say and laughed at me.

Im still trying to fix this at the lowest level but I think I am already at board of appeals level. There is no way these dinguses are going to see reason. they just want to waste my time and hope I go away.
 
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Hey can you guys help me? I am fighting the system right now. I was denied twice for the most bull**** reasons. You would think that the system would be designed to help disabled veterans succeed. HA. no. it is designed so they can do the least amount possible.

I need clarification on the word "interests" and the term "employability".

NOw they denied me the first time because I was too injuried. They only tried to help me because i went to the doctor.

The doctor said he thought it would be okay for me to go to school. well the supervisor of my counselor thought that meant I wasnt eligible for the program because I couldnt be employed. It iss like they are just trying to make up as many reasons as possible to deny me. I think it is racially motivated in my opinion.

My problems is they say I have tranferable skills, yet they refuse to articulate what those actually are when questioned. I have three degrees all related to the military. AAS geospatial intelligence, BA international relations, MA intelligence studies.

It alot of wasted paper without the security clearance. I spent three years attempting all types of employment. Even with a schedule A letter. Nothing... I got one position as a Geographical informations systems analyst. I was then fire after two months for being underskilled and asking too many questions.

To the VRE rep this meant I was marketable. Which to me is completely delusional. His supervisor said they wouldnt let me use education in the process unless I had exhuasted the employment option. When I asked them how long would they make me do that they refused to answer.

I asked them what job my MA in intelligence would transfer to and they refused to answer.

Like I have exhuasted all the stupid employment options already before seeing these people. I tried admin, I tried schedule a, I tried internaitonal relations, GIS, and intelligence. I tried every single contracting company asking them in the kindest way possible to please sponsor a struggling veteran.

I was lucky to get an email say sorry we cant help.

Im done. I want to change my career. I took their stupid career assessment test. It said I should do medicine. Now I am in school doing the pre reqs for either med school or PA school. Gonna apply to both.

Please help me out here. one thing I noticed is no one cares about how I feel. like when I mentioned to the superviser that my previous job causes me depression, doesnt make me happy, and makes my health worse she laughed at me.

She is a terrible supervisor and terrible person to not listen to anything I had to say and laughed at me.

Im still trying to fix this at the lowest level but I think I am already at board of appeals level. There is no way these dinguses are going to see reason. they just want to waste my time and hope I go away.
My apologize for the late reply (relocated 2,000 miles across the country for my residency that's starting up in a couple of weeks). Also as a side note, I did edit your post leaving out the name(s) of your voc-rehab counselor for the simple reason of self-preservation. They could easily filter the info online, see the details of your post and information, and just like that put the road-block in front of you further limiting any viable resource/help you could get.

It's a lot to digest, but I'll try to see what we can assist with in terms of using Chapter 31:

I need clarification on the word "interests" and the term "employability".

38 CFR § 21.51 - Determining employment handicap

1) Employability is based on this - Vocational impairment; that is, an impairment of the ability to prepare for, obtain, or keep employment in an occupation consistent with his or her abilities, aptitudes, and interests.

Your abilities will be 100% based on your service-connected disabilities (or rather, what is the extent of your capability to work? Do you need a desk job? Can you move around? Do you have a mental health issue (ie PTSD) and if so, what are your limitations?).

Your aptitude is your natural talent or tendency/capability of performing a task. Think of this as a hobby or something you excel in (sports, games, painting, playing an instrument, so on and so forth). With that in mind, your "aptitudes" in terms of Chapter 31 is looking at what these skills are and how they draw you to employment (or hinder employment).

2) Your interests of course is what is going to draw you to obtain the minimum certificates or degrees to perform a job that aligns with your own career goal. However, the corner-stone of the program is not to simply "give you coverage" to do anything you want, but rather to give you the resources for "basic level employment" based on "current credentials."

NOw they denied me the first time because I was too injuried. They only tried to help me because i went to the doctor.

This will be based on current disabilities and what your file says. If you're indeed injured, the next step for them is to connect you to recruitment services and give you a list of eligible resources to assist with your transition out of the service. It's a temporary way of saying that you do not have the physical means to complete education at any level at that point in time.

My problems is they say I have tranferable skills, yet they refuse to articulate what those actually are when questioned. I have three degrees all related to the military. AAS geospatial intelligence, BA international relations, MA intelligence studies.

It alot of wasted paper without the security clearance.

When you approach VR&E for educational coverage, they're 2 ways to approach the program

Option 1) You need basic employment and they're going to triage you to taking scope assessments and deciding viable options (if any). If you're deemed not fit for employment, its a no. If you're deemed with transferable skills (bachelors and masters), you'll have to provide evidence of why you are not employable. If it's a security clearance issue, then the angle would be to have them cover the cost of obtaining one and going from that point. Simply not working with the veteran on something such as that is a bit off as that would certainly be cheaper than other alternatives.

Option 2) You approach them with certificate and degrees of your own interests and goals.

If you choose option #2, it is on you to provide the burden of proof and reasoning as to why you want the degree and how it will not hinder your career plans. For example, if the goal is PA or MD/DO route, They're going to be thinking and/or asking these questions -- "what is the guarantee you'll get accepted to those programs if you do not currently have a bachelors that meets the demands for interviews? What's to say even if you earn the bachelors needed for said interviews, obtain an interview, and get into a program, that you'll pass the program?" Congress puts out a cap of $$$ for veteran coverage, the thought process they might be having is that the evidence you are presenting is lacking or doesn't align with your disability capabilities and it comes at a much higher cost that requires your boss's boss approval.

The other thought process is if you still have GI Bill left over. If you do, and it covers the pre-reqs for a degree, why the help? Or, if you used your GI Bill, they will need to calculate how much time is taken off from your VR&E benefits (1 month of GI Bill takes away 1 month from VR&E). If you do not have enough time to become employed with the proper certificate or degree with the time left of your VR&E, it is an automatic "no." You would know at that point because they would've seen if you were deemed to qualify as having a serious employment handicap (SEH) which allows an extension of education coverage beyond what you're allowed between going from GI Bill to VR&E (48 months).

With that, its definitely draining and a bit depressing. I'd take some time away from them for a short while, gather all the info for your goals, and start again with what they can or cannot assist with. They surely wont cover cost for PA programs at this point, but you could propose a "teaching degree" in the sciences that can jump start your own goal of having coverage up to the point of transitioning to PA school (just an example, plenty of avenues to pivot off of).
 
Update:

July 14th, 2022 - I was accepted for my VR&E Extension to include my residency program (as in, it is documented and on paper & official)! I'll be humble and admit, that I was a bit surprised since I had to go back and forth on other viable options (especially since I still have 100% of my GI Bill).

What seems to be even more interesting, is that since my institute of higher learning (i.e., the hospital) does not have a Certifying Official to keep track of my PGY-1 status, they have linked my residency program through my prior pharmacy school program that I graduated from back in May. Since the cost of living of my prior program is easily double the cost of living in my current location in the Midwest (2,000 miles away), I get to keep the higher BAH rate at my new location which has literally doubled my pay!

However, it was a bit tricky as I had to prepare a formality document that would nearly mimic a fulltime student. So, for each specialty rotation I will be doing, I have designated a "credit" along with a minimum credit threshold to be considered a fulltime resident. As an example: since I will be dedicating 4-week rotations in Internal Medicine I & II, I have associated each rotation with 4 credits. Since I'll be staffing every other weekend, rounding, verifying, and working up specific medication consults, I've included this as 2 credits. For every topic discussion and research projects planned, I've documented those as Social Administrative Science (SAS) Courses and arbitrarily put it down as 2 credits. Since I'll be doing evaluations throughout the year, I broke up my program as if they were terms or semesters (quarterly) for the whole year.

So for my first quarter example(s), it would look something like this:

(QUARTER 1)
*** Internal Medicine I -------- 4 credits
*** Critical Care I -------------- 4 credits
*** Oncology ------------------ 4 credits
*** Intro. to Kinetic Dosing --- 2 credits

(QUARTER 2)
*** Internal Medicine II -------- 4 credits
*** Critical Care II -------------- 4 credits
*** Antimicrobial Stewardship- 4 credits
*** Social Admin. Science ----- 2 credits

<<<< Full Time Status: 12 credits>>>>

At the end of each rotation, I would have each of my preceptors sign off on my "hours" and be co-signed by my Residency Program Director. As far as formality goes, I simply took my actual transcript, formatted it into a word document, filled in the gaps and re-worded the program, and utilized it as a new templated transcript that is now currently my first year of residency.

As with VR&E, I now have them pay for not just my supplies, but software systems utilized in the hospital and extension coverage of my laptop (virus protection, office updates, etc). If any oddly specific items need purchased, I simply use the 28-1905m Request & Receipt of Supplies document and send it off.

As time goes, I'll be sure to document once again on this thread of new information and other avenues I can use with this program as a licensed pharmacist resident and not as a student in professional schooling.

The start of a new chapter is now in full throttle.
 
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Update:

July 14th, 2022 - I was accepted for my VR&E Extension to include my residency program (as in, it is documented and on paper & official)! I'll be humble and admit, that I was a bit surprised since I had to go back and forth on other viable options (especially since I still have 100% of my GI Bill).

What seems to be even more interesting, is that since my institute of higher learning (i.e., the hospital) does not have a Certifying Official to keep track of my PGY-1 status, they have linked my residency program through my prior pharmacy school program that I graduated from back in May. Since the cost of living of my prior program is easily double the cost of living in my current location in the Midwest (2,000 miles away), I get to keep the higher BAH rate at my new location which has literally doubled my pay!

However, it was a bit tricky as I had to prepare a formality document that would nearly mimic a fulltime student. So, for each specialty rotation I will be doing, I have designated a "credit" along with a minimum credit threshold to be considered a fulltime resident. As an example: since I will be dedicating 4-week rotations in Internal Medicine I & II, I have associated each rotation with 4 credits. Since I'll be staffing every other weekend, rounding, verifying, and working up specific medication consults, I've included this as 2 credits. For every topic discussion and research projects planned, I've documented those as Social Administrative Science (SAS) Courses and arbitrarily put it down as 2 credits. Since I'll be doing evaluations throughout the year, I broke up my program as if they were terms or semesters (quarterly) for the whole year.

So for my first quarter example(s), it would look something like this:

(QUARTER 1)
*** Internal Medicine I -------- 4 credits
*** Critical Care I -------------- 4 credits
*** Oncology ------------------ 4 credits
*** Intro. to Kinetic Dosing --- 2 credits

(QUARTER 2)
*** Internal Medicine II -------- 4 credits
*** Critical Care II -------------- 4 credits
*** Antimicrobial Stewardship- 4 credits
*** Social Admin. Science ----- 2 credits

<<<< Full Time Status: 12 credits>>>>

At the end of each rotation, I would have each of my preceptors sign off on my "hours" and be co-signed by my Residency Program Director. As far as formality goes, I simply took my actual transcript, formatted it into a word document, filled in the gaps and re-worded the program, and utilized it as a new templated transcript that is now currently my first year of residency.

As with VR&E, I now have them pay for not just my supplies, but software systems utilized in the hospital and extension coverage of my laptop (virus protection, office updates, etc). If any oddly specific items need purchased, I simply use the 28-1905m Request & Receipt of Supplies document and send it off.

As time goes, I'll be sure to document once again on this thread of new information and other avenues I can use with this program as a licensed pharmacist resident and not as a student in professional schooling.

The start of a new chapter is now in full throttle.

Amazing Job! Thanks for documenting the process so clearly. I'm just under a year out from residency so when the time comes I will try to document my results as well.
 
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Benefits Update - Transition of VR&E Journey

Since the VR&E and GI Bill update was implemented April 1st (VR&E no longer count against GI Bill Education), I thought I'd check out any updates on my portal and see if my GI Bill was 100% reinstated since I started my journey without touching so much as 1 day of my post 9-11 (especially since I will be starting my 1 year rotations in less than 2 weeks). I am glad to report the following has now been updated on my portal:


View attachment 336472

View attachment 336473

Considering I have now used my VR&E benefits coming up on 22 months straight, it is nice to know I have more than enough "back-up benefits" to push me through residencies once the time comes. Soon I'll do an update on how my BAH pay-outs work while doing 6-week rotations throughout my last year of school. I now directly work with my VR&E counselor and have somewhat isolated my school certifier for the time being.
wonder how this works for folks who used their post 9/11 like myself and got a letter stating the same. I have not used a single day of VRE but if I do so will they reinstate my post 9/11 at the end of using VRE?
 
wonder how this works for folks who used their post 9/11 like myself and got a letter stating the same. I have not used a single day of VRE but if I do so will they reinstate my post 9/11 at the end of using VRE?
I doubt it. You already used post 9/11 benefits not VRE. You can still use VRE if you qualify but you won't get the full BAH stipend as you don't have anymore 9/11 days left (unless they changed that rule too, not sure).
 
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wonder how this works for folks who used their post 9/11 like myself and got a letter stating the same. I have not used a single day of VRE but if I do so will they reinstate my post 9/11 at the end of using VRE?

The letter you received could be a generic preface stating that Chapter 31 (VR&E) "can" reinstate your post 9/11 GI Bill. This does not mean they "will" reinstate your post 9/11 GI Bill. The letter may only be presuming that if you start VR&E before any amount of your post 9/11, you will be reimbursed the time difference.

The new law implemented states that VR&E no longer takes away from the GI Bill. However, if you started your GI Bill (post 9/11), it will take away your time from VR&E (Chapter 31). So, unless the regulations just changed within the last few weeks, you will not be reimbursed any time of your GI Bill. Rather, you will only be eligible to use 12 months of VR&E "if" they feel you cannot be gainfully employed at this time with your current credentials.

If it so happens you do indeed get VR&E, you will only get the stipend housing rate. If you do not have at least one day left of post 9/11, you do not qualify for the higher BAH rate and will be limited to what they offer. Of course, if you qualify as having a serious employment handicap (SEH), you may be given an extension of your VR&E. Otherwise, I do not see how you can be reimbursed any post 9/11 time if you never had VR&E to begin with.
 
I doubt it. You already used post 9/11 benefits not VRE. You can still use VRE if you qualify but you won't get the full BAH stipend as you don't have anymore 9/11 days left (unless they changed that rule too, not sure).
I realized my writing was confusing. I still have about 12 months of ch. 33 left. At this point from my reading everything I can apply for VRE and if I dont get it continue with My post 9/11. The issue here is how much of VRE can I received? ( 1yesr or more?)
 
I realized my writing was confusing. I still have about 12 months of ch. 33 left. At this point from my reading everything I can apply for VRE and if I dont get it continue with My post 9/11. The issue here is how much of VRE can I received? ( 1yesr or more?)

So, if you started with Chapter 33 (9/11), you can only have a combined total of benefits of 48 months when switching over to Chapter 31 (VR&E). Since you started with post 9/11, the difference of 48 months will be subtracted from your VR&E months eligibility.

Since you used 24 months of post 9/11, you can only use up to 24 months of VR&E (combined of 48 months). The exception is having a serious employment handicap (SEH), of which you may be granted an extension of your benefits. Now, the good news is, if you happen to get accepted into VR&E, the time commitment you put into VR&E will not take away the time left on your post 9/11. This is why it'd be in great favor to try and apply for VR&E. If you don't get picked up for VR&E benefits, you might as well use up the remaining benefits of your post 9/11.

To put simply:

1) Post 9/11 takes time away from VR&E, but VR&E (once started) does not take time away from your post 9/11 benefits.
2) Combined total benefits must not exceed 48 months from post 9/11 to VR&E.
 
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So, if you started with Chapter 33 (9/11), you can only have a combined total of benefits of 48 months when switching over to Chapter 31 (VR&E). Since you started with post 9/11, the difference of 48 months will be subtracted from your VR&E months eligibility.

Since you used 24 months of post 9/11, you can only use up to 24 months of VR&E (combined of 48 months). The exception is having a serious employment handicap (SEH), of which you may be granted an extension of your benefits. Now, the good news is, if you happen to get accepted into VR&E, the time commitment you put into VR&E will not take away the time left on your post 9/11. This is why it'd be in great favor to try and apply for VR&E. If you don't get picked up for VR&E benefits, you might as well use up the remaining benefits of your post 9/11.

To put simply:

1) Post 9/11 takes time away from VR&E, but VR&E (once started) does not take time away from your post 9/11 benefits.
2) Combined total benefits must not exceed 48 months from post 9/11 to VR&E.
I see thank you
 
My Concluding Update...

I expressed my excitement from July 14th that I was able to plead and provide evidence of bridging my VR&E benefits from school to residency status. After a lot of paperwork, phone calls, and meetings, my congratulations email turned into an unfortunate recall of my benefits...I was not found fit to qualify because no one in my state could "officially" certify my residency. I argued the case of my school and the certifying official, but unfortunately, they did not have the paperwork nor means to continue certifying me as a resident (despite stating that they could).

Nonetheless, this journey over the past few years has been rewarding and a blessing for my family. This program has covered well over $250k of my education and fully supported me with little resistance in obtaining additional coverage (exams, travel, etc). In fact, I qualified for a 2-month BAH extension (Employment Adjustment Allowance, or EAA) of which, I used my last month payment to cover for a brand-new desktop with split monitors, software upgrades, and updated security features to assist me in my studies and clinical projects.

I hope others have learned something from this thread, and I encourage users to continue to ask questions and give your own updates of your personal journey using these benefits. I will soon see if my post 9/11 can pick up where my VR&E left off (it should, but again...no VA liaison), but if not, I'll see what the following year and opportunities hold for me.

In terms of my own VR&E benefits, BC_89 is signing off.
 
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My Concluding Update...

I expressed my excitement from July 14th that I was able to plead and provide evidence of bridging my VR&E benefits from school to residency status. After a lot of paperwork, phone calls, and meetings, my congratulations email turned into an unfortunate recall of my benefits...I was not found fit to qualify because no one in my state could "officially" certify my residency. I argued the case of my school and the certifying official, but unfortunately, they did not have the paperwork nor means to continue certifying me as a resident (despite stating that they could).

Nonetheless, this journey over the past few years has been rewarding and a blessing for my family. This program has covered well over $250k of my education and fully supported me with little resistance in obtaining additional coverage (exams, travel, etc). In fact, I qualified for a 2-month BAH extension (Employment Adjustment Allowance, or EAA) of which, I used my last month payment to cover for a brand-new desktop with split monitors, software upgrades, and updated security features to assist me in my studies and clinical projects.

I hope others have learned something from this thread, and I encourage users to continue to ask questions and give your own updates of your personal journey using these benefits. I will soon see if my post 9/11 can pick up where my VR&E left off (it should, but again...no VA liaison), but if not, I'll see what the following year and opportunities hold for me.

In terms of my own VR&E benefits, BC_89 is signing off.
I just wanted to thank you for all of your help.

For others: I had a chance to serve as BC_89's preceptor! He happened to arrive at what was hands down the darkest period in my pharmacy career. We got to talking about our veterans benefit stuff that we were each dealing with, and he told me all about this VRE program. After some jackwagon threatened to return to the pharmacy with a gun, I decided I was done being a pharmacist.

Untitled_Artwork.png


Fast forward just about a year, and I'm finishing up a bachelors in cybersecurity and working from home. I think BC_89 ended up helping me more as a student than I helped him as a preceptor!
 
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I just wanted to thank you for all of your help.

For others: I had a chance to serve as BC_89's preceptor! He happened to arrive at what was hands down the darkest period in my pharmacy career. We got to talking about our veterans benefit stuff that we were each dealing with, and he told me all about this VRE program. After some jackwagon threatened to return to the pharmacy with a gun, I decided I was done being a pharmacist.

View attachment 361821

Fast forward just about a year, and I'm finishing up a bachelors in cybersecurity and working from home. I think BC_89 ended up helping me more as a student than I helped him as a preceptor!
Congrats!!!

I was actually wondering over the summer if you made the full transition (plus telling the wife another vet got the full benefit of VR&E). By the looks of your computer system, I'd say you made the best decision you could've made (preparation met opportunity and you got paid for it)!
 
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Update: Residency has been approved for VR&E as of today. I moved and got a new counselor. We just signed the new IWRP today which is pretty explicit for my field and residency training. Pumped for that.
 
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Update: Residency has been approved for VR&E as of today. I moved and got a new counselor. We just signed the new IWRP today which is pretty explicit for my field and residency training. Pumped for that.
I would imagine that had to of been the hardest case to justify given all facts on the table -

Congrats!
 
Update: Residency has been approved for VR&E as of today. I moved and got a new counselor. We just signed the new IWRP today which is pretty explicit for my field and residency training. Pumped for that.

My current counselor has said that they would also approve my residency but required an extension and was getting pushback because the higher-ups were not wanting to approve the additional months (despite the additional months being substantially cheaper than all of my previous schooling months. I, however, was found initially to have an SEH, so I argued that the number of months was a moot point.

Also, as an update, one of the things that @MusicDOc124 enlightened me about was the need for your residency program to be signed up in WEAMS (WEAMS Public)
 
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