MD Cheating allegations engulf Dartmouth medical school

[anbuitachi]

My honest take-away from all this is to just print off the powerpoints before exams.

edit: im joking before anyone lectures me

or just use a different computer from teh test taking one.. its stupid.
also whats stopping students from taking it in groups and discussing the test...

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Lawpy]

I'm really surprised to see it's difficult to write reasoning based questions that are cheating resistant.

 

[FindersFee5]

I'm really surprised to see it's difficult to write reasoning based questions that are cheating resistant.

Try writing some yourself! Almost all questions in med school are knowledge based to some degree, so are by definition susceptible to cheating. About the only ones that aren't would be including a novel study and writing a question to assess understanding of some aspect of that study. But you can't write a whole test like that.

 

[efle]

I'm really surprised to see it's difficult to write reasoning based questions that are cheating resistant.

A medical degree isn't all about reasoning. You gotta know a lot of ****. People walking into tests already knowing what subject knowledge will be tested could cover up critical deficiencies, and removing that type of question is not an option.

 

[Lawpy]

Try writing some yourself! Almost all questions in med school are knowledge based to some degree, so are by definition susceptible to cheating. About the only ones that aren't would be including a novel study and writing a question to assess understanding of some aspect of that study. But you can't write a whole test like that.

A medical degree isn't all about reasoning. You gotta know a lot of ****. People walking into tests already knowing what subject knowledge will be tested could cover up critical deficiencies, and removing that type of question is not an option.

I think what i find bizarre in all this is here we have adcoms flexing so hard on MCAT scores that are heavily based on reasoning skills, and yet once med school begins, the entire testing scheme is just memorizing and regurgitating content

 

[Goro]

The amount of speculation on this thread is truly exceptional. So I'll add mine.

1. Someone notices some unusual Canvas activity during an exam
2. This initiates a broader review, which turns up a sizable cohort of students whose Canvas accounts showed unusual activity during the exam
3. Allegations of malfeasance are made to this sizable cohort of students
4. Further investigation shows the majority of this unusual activity is benign, most allegations are dropped
5. But, the whole episode does uncover a smaller cohort of students who were legit cheating during the exam
6. This smaller cohort is dismissed

To add to this timeline, something that medical students are unaware of is that the exam software (at least the one we use) records exactly when you're looking at an item and when you answer it, and also if you change your answer.

So having someone access Canvas for the anatomy lecture exam on the abdomen at the exact moment the student is looking at an item on pain sensation from appendicitis would be a strong bit of evidence.

I also don't understand why some of you think that a bad item is what making someone cheat. They're cheating because they don't know the answer. And a school like Dartmouth is going to have resources to have a well tested and vetted item bank.

 

[sloop]

Try writing some yourself! Almost all questions in med school are knowledge based to some degree, so are by definition susceptible to cheating. About the only ones that aren't would be including a novel study and writing a question to assess understanding of some aspect of that study. But you can't write a whole test like that.

Many courses in my med school had exams with timed essay portions that composed a considerable amount of the total exam grade. These wouldn’t be completely impossible to cheat on but it would be difficult to do so effectively.

For instance, you might be able to look up a particular interleukin, but if you have a limited time in which to describe the entire pathway of inflammation in granular detail, you’re basically not going to be able to do that unless you already knew it going in. Similarly, you might be able to come up with an equation in physiology by cheating, but it’s going to be difficult to make it through a timed essay question asking you to explain the processes that those equations are modeling.

 

[SophiaGolden]

Cheating is a very small part of the system. People nowadays even talking about OTC drugs are much worse than drug. and my friend recently reports a drug dealer, you know what, the police didn't even care, told him that they cannot understand his English. He also tried DEA, and nobody picked up the phone and no one replies to his messages... We probably only have to offer marijuana flavor ice cream to our next generation since nobody cares. Then, there is no meaning of modern medicine... We're here trying so hard and our best to become competent doctors to save lives, but nobody cares, that's why they cheat!...

 

[Dantes]

I found a statement from the class on Reddit regarding their concerns:


How do you mess up on seven (and potentially more) serious, career-altering accusations like that?

 

[Lawpy]

I found a statement from the class on Reddit regarding their concerns:


How do you mess up on seven (and potentially more) serious, career-altering accusations like that?

@Goro @Med Ed @operaman thoughts on this?

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

My thing is you just dont wake up one day and decide to cheat. I have been saying for a while that GPA should not be a factor for medical school because people cheat in undergrad. You just need an opportunity.

Hard to cheat continuously

 

[sloop]

I found a statement from the class on Reddit regarding their concerns:


How do you mess up on seven (and potentially more) serious, career-altering accusations like that?

My thoughts on this:

First, this case highlights some of the problems with the relatively informal procedure of many academic integrity hearings. A big question on my mind is what standard of proof are they using? Even if the data is not entirely reliable, even the statistician seemed to acknowledge that repeated instances of accessing relevant information to a given question would be more likely intentional than random. The statistician mentions 5+ instances being suspicious. It’s unclear to me how many instances were noticed on accused students’ accounts.

Then the question obviously comes to the standard of proof. If the committee is using a high standard such as beyond a reasonable doubt, then it’s not clear that even repeated instances would satisfy that. But if it is preponderance of evidence or even clear and convincing evidence (or something analogous), multiple accessions of relevant material to the question being answered could be enough.

The statistician includes a paragraph opining on the confessions of some of the medical students. This person is an expert on statistics, not the validity of confessions, so this part of the report should be disregarded.

There does appear to be a procedural problem in the limited time the students had to produce exculpatory evidence. It is also potentially a problem if they weren’t given full access to logs that might be exculpatory. But ultimately this is an issue with these types of hearings. They’re often too informal and don’t necessarily protect the rights of the accused. It may be that the students don’t have any recourse, which would be unfortunate.

 

[Nugester]

Tough situation and many mistakes were made. It's highly likely that some of the students cheated while the remaining were caught in the crossfire. Curious though as I'm not an expert: why is it that the remaining students did not trigger a review? What's different with their androids/ipads/iphones?

 

[Nugester]

Try writing some yourself! Almost all questions in med school are knowledge based to some degree, so are by definition susceptible to cheating. About the only ones that aren't would be including a novel study and writing a question to assess understanding of some aspect of that study. But you can't write a whole test like that.

+1!!!

For some of our classes (as students), we have to write USMLE-style questions as part of our assignments and you bet they do take a good amount of time to write one question.

 

[operaman]

@Goro @Med Ed @operaman thoughts on this?

As one with no relation to Geisel and taking all the allegations in this letter and appendices as true, I have to say i side completely with the school on this one and would say they are handling it as well as one can possibly handle a terribly challenging situation.

1) pulling old data on past alleged cheating makes perfect sense. Thare NOT using only canvas data to incriminate students; rather, they are correlating it with exam data and time stamps. This satisfies the concerns in the students’ cited references.

2) the statistician letter is laughable and is completely irrelevant.

3) sounds like the school came up with a solid way of ruling out automated page queries.

4) it makes sense that they couldn’t go after the one student who cheated recently without looking for past offenders. My spidey sense says that if general counsel got involved, that student was a member of a federally protected class (age, race, gender) where they could argue that expulsion was discriminatory unless applied broadly without consideration of any protected status. My guess is Geisel had no idea what they would find once they went down the rabbit hole!

5) I think there may be some due process issues at play here, though it sounds like students were given the due process spelled out in their handbook. It sucks trying to defend against something from months earlier, but there’s no statute of limitations on cheating. People have had degrees rescinded years later when past academic integrity issues came to light.

6) the social media reminder is very appropriate. Disparaging your institution publicly can absolutely hurt your career and the school was wise to remind people to keep that in mind. The students tried/are trying to use public pressure to press their case but it comes at a cost.

7) all in all, the school seems to be handling this well and students who bent the rules are now paying the Piper. It’s such a small number of remaining students still accused that it seems highly unlikely that random automated queries are causing this despite meticulous research from the school to correlate canvas logs with exam data. I see no reason the school should have to retain an independent cyber security firm; Dartmouth’s IT is perfectly capable of analyzing their own software and providing information to the deans.

Am I missing something here? I know this was written by the students in their own defense, but it really supports the school’s actions quite beautifully.

 

[deleted1054719]

As one with no relation to Geisel and taking all the allegations in this letter and appendices as true, I have to say i side completely with the school on this one and would say they are handling it as well as one can possibly handle a terribly challenging situation.

1) pulling old data on past alleged cheating makes perfect sense. Thare NOT using only canvas data to incriminate students; rather, they are correlating it with exam data and time stamps. This satisfies the concerns in the students’ cited references.

2) the statistician letter is laughable and is completely irrelevant.

3) sounds like the school came up with a solid way of ruling out automated page queries.

4) it makes sense that they couldn’t go after the one student who cheated recently without looking for past offenders. My spidey sense says that if general counsel got involved, that student was a member of a federally protected class (age, race, gender) where they could argue that expulsion was discriminatory unless applied broadly without consideration of any protected status. My guess is Geisel had no idea what they would find once they went down the rabbit hole!

5) I think there may be some due process issues at play here, though it sounds like students were given the due process spelled out in their handbook. It sucks trying to defend against something from months earlier, but there’s no statute of limitations on cheating. People have had degrees rescinded years later when past academic integrity issues came to light.

6) the social media reminder is very appropriate. Disparaging your institution publicly can absolutely hurt your career and the school was wise to remind people to keep that in mind. The students tried/are trying to use public pressure to press their case but it comes at a cost.

7) all in all, the school seems to be handling this well and students who bent the rules are now paying the Piper. It’s such a small number of remaining students still accused that it seems highly unlikely that random automated queries are causing this despite meticulous research from the school to correlate canvas logs with exam data. I see no reason the school should have to retain an independent cyber security firm; Dartmouth’s IT is perfectly capable of analyzing their own software and providing information to the deans.

Am I missing something here? I know this was written by the students in their own defense, but it really supports the school’s actions quite beautifully.

I largely agree with you except on point 3 since so many students that were initially accused were then exonerated. I'm curious what came up between the initial belief that there was sufficient evidence to accuse those students and the subsequent change. The large number of retractions also makes me curious as to whether there is a wider problem with the IT analysis methodology.

 

[7331poas]

My advice to anyone who thinks "if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about". These proceedings are arguably even more dangerous than a criminal interview because at least you have recourse in the justice system.

 

[operaman]

I largely agree with you except on point 3 since so many students that were initially accused were then exonerated. I'm curious what came up between the initial belief that there was sufficient evidence to accuse those students and the subsequent change. The large number of retractions also makes me curious as to whether there is a wider problem with the IT analysis methodology.

As noted above, I’m going solely off what the students have posted. Looks like 40 initially received letters about suspicious behavior, and then all but 17 were let off based on their “appendix A” criteria which all seem rather reasonable. That leaves 17 still accused of which 3 were expelled and 10 have faced other punitive actions.

I would add that based on appendix A criteria, someone could have easily cheated so long as they didn’t cheat a LOT. It sounds like they bent over backward to ensure they didn’t falsely accuse someone, likely letting some people off who had in fact cheated.

 

[Lawpy]

As noted above, I’m going solely off what the students have posted. Looks like 40 initially received letters about suspicious behavior, and then all but 17 were let off based on their “appendix A” criteria which all seem rather reasonable. That leaves 17 still accused of which 3 were expelled and 10 have faced other punitive actions.

I would add that based on appendix A criteria, someone could have easily cheated so long as they didn’t cheat a LOT. It sounds like they bent over backward to ensure they didn’t falsely accuse someone, likely letting some people off who had in fact cheated.

It always feels so weird that the students' account ends up actually making them look worse compared to the school!

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

Yeah we have zoom proctored exams. Have to be able to see you, your workspace, and the screen. You also have to show them the whole room before you start so they know you don’t have stuff around or someone else giving you answers.

I don’t understand so many aspects of this:

-My school uses Examsoft or something similar, where it automatically locks us out of everything else on the computer/ iPad and actually disconnects from the internet. We have to download the test in advance and can only access it for the duration of test day.

-Why would the school think students are actually using Canvas to cheat? Every one of my lectures was downloaded onto my computer, the last thing I’d think of would be to go onto Canvas and look up each lecture individually.

-How simple are the questions/ how long is the test that people are actually getting anything useful out of cheating? With a properly written test you should have MAYBE an extra 15-20 minutes at the end on average to review questions. If you’re looking up questions and searching Powerpoints/ the internet, that’s gonna take atleast 1-2 minutes per question and you might not even end up finishing the test...

One of my undergrad classes uses a software that records sounds and movement during the exam. We're also required to record the room before we begin. If we have other tabs open, the software doesn't let us start the exam until they're closed. The rest of the classes either make us sign an honesty statement at the beginning of the exam (cause that's super effective) or allow us to use books and outside material. Last semester one of my professors got really mad because apparently a whole bunch of people were using sites like Chegg to cheat on the midterm. I honestly did not feel bad for the guy because he likely recycled a whole bunch of his questions/got them somewhere else if people were going wild on Chegg.

I think I've heard about professors/ TAs being able to monitor student activity on Canvas. They must have had some pretty damning evidence on the 3 that got expelled.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

The situation is horrible all around.

My guess is that in order to be accused of cheating, the school was looking for repeated Canvas access on the exam topics over multiple exams. People who cheat usually don't do so just once -- it becomes a habit. The stats issues in the letter are true -- if you set the bar low enough, random access might look like directed cheating. But it sounds like the school relooked at the data and hence exonerated a bunch of students.

It does look like the school either rushed to judgment or simply made an error with their first analysis, accusing people they ultimately cleared. That's unfortunate, and I don't know that the school can do for those people to make it right. If someone didn't cheat at all yet got pulled into this, that's very sad. It's possible that some people had low level cheating, enough to get sucked into this but not enough for a bad outcome -- and I feel much less bad for those people.

Dismissing someone from medical school is a big deal. It certainly is bad for the student, and it makes the school look bad also. They could have easily swept this under the rug and no one would have known -- they could have simply changed processes going forward to ensure that people didn't cheat (at least not by accessing Canvas). I expect that the evidence against the people sanctioned and dismissed is actually quite solid.

I still find it hard to believe that the committee would give people 2 minutes to make their case. Perhaps those people had less than 2 minutes of material they wanted to share with the committee? If the committee really limited people to 2 minutes, that's just wrong (unless we're missing part of the story).

One other piece worth noting, the students are twisting the "Canvas logs should not be used to determine cheating" narrative. The links to their "evidence" are on the document. All of those links lead to documents that state that you should not use Canvas Activity Logs to assess for cheating when taking a quiz in Canvas. For example, just because Canvas says you were "inactive" for 5 minutes while taking a quiz doesn't mean you were cheating. But the issue here is completely different -- using Canvas access logs of the material while students were taking an exam in a different system.

 

[TragicalDrFaust]

At my friend’s school I almost don’t think admin cares if they cheat. They get three attempts to pass, only the first is video monitored. Apparently there are some students who take the exam the first time and score in the 30% range but everyone passes on the second try... I’m certain most students are putting in a good faith effort but what will that cohort’s board scores look like?

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

There are three types of students involved in this whole thing. The ones that didn't cheat. The ones that cheated once and got away with it and the ones that cheated a bunch of times and got sacked. It really sucks though because a med school expulsion can ruin your life. I would have been paranoid to cheat on an exam, especially a med school one. Funny things is, when the pandemic first started, a TA on twitter basically made a viral tweet saying that student activity can be monitored on canvas so you should download things beforehand. Looks like the 3 that got expelled didn't see this warning.

Spoiler: Canvas cheat tweet

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

My thing is you just dont wake up one day and decide to cheat. I have been saying for a while that GPA should not be a factor for medical school because people cheat in undergrad. You just need an opportunity.

I'm curious. What should be a factor?

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

ALWAYS

MCAT is the most objective measure. To me in the upcoming two cycles your GPA should be irrelevant there is no way to tell who was cheating and it's rampant across all undergrads. I can guarantee you over 50% of all applicants have engaged in cheating during COVID.

The MCAT isn't without it's flaws. A lot of people want to get rid of the MCAT or make it pass/ fail. It's all very interesting.

 

[Lawpy]

The MCAT isn't without it's flaws. A lot of people want to get rid of the MCAT or make it pass/ fail. It's all very interesting.

Me and @efle @Lucca get into arguments all the time on whether the MCAT can be aced by anyone or whether the intelligence aspect for high scores is fixed and capped. So i can easily see the anti-MCAT sentiments

 

[Dr_feelsbadman]

I can't believe how poorly Dartmouth admin are handling this

With such a small class sizes (90), it reasons they could have fully investigated, had discussions privately with the guilty students about how it will be noted on their MPSE as a professionalism citation, and then have a townhall telling people to not cheat again

Instead they
1) making the news for their cheating (looks bad)
2) are holding one-sided hearings that are being posted online (looks bad)
3) having the students anonymously post how helpless they feel online (looks bad)
4) creating policy silencing those student's online posts (looks bad)
5) expelling some students based on the cheating (looks bad)

Cheating is bad and standards are needed. But consider that there are schools with entirely optional exams (Yale), no exams (cleveland clinic) or completely unproctored (many schools). Preclinical exams just aren't that important. The students deserve professionalism write-ups, but man this shines an awful light on Dartmouth's admin and culture

 

[lancefielder]

I can't believe how poorly Dartmouth admin are handling this

With such a small class sizes (90), it reasons they could have fully investigated, had discussions privately with the guilty students about how it will be noted on their MPSE as a professionalism citation, and then have a townhall telling people to not cheat again

Instead they
1) making the news for their cheating (looks bad)
2) are holding one-sided hearings that are being posted online (looks bad)
3) having the students anonymously post how helpless they feel online (looks bad)
4) creating policy silencing those student's online posts (looks bad)
5) expelling some students based on the cheating (looks bad)

Cheating is bad and standards are needed. But consider that there are schools with entirely optional exams (Yale), no exams (cleveland clinic) or completely unproctored (many schools). Preclinical exams just aren't that important. The students deserve professionalism write-ups, but man this shines an awful light on Dartmouth's admin and culture

It's a microcosm of how badly medical education reform is needed.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

The MCAT isn't without it's flaws. A lot of people want to get rid of the MCAT or make it pass/ fail. It's all very interesting.

No test is perfect, but the MCAT is the closest anyone will ever get to an objective side by side comparison between applicants. The people who want it to move to pass fail also probably think they deserve Participation Trophies for rec-league sports.

 

[efle]

No test is perfect, but the MCAT is the closest anyone will ever get to an objective side by side comparison between applicants. The people who want it to move to pass fail also probably think they deserve Participation Trophies for rec-league sports.

Mmm yes the AAMC, such a bunch of dumb babies amirite

 

[Arthur Morgan]

No test is perfect, but the MCAT is the closest anyone will ever get to an objective side by side comparison between applicants. The people who want it to move to pass fail also probably think they deserve Participation Trophies for rec-league sports.

Honestly, just make it a four hour test instead of eight and cut all four sections in half. That way it’ll be more in line with the other standardized grad school tests, albeit still a bit longer. Nobody wants an eight hour test, and if they do, just let them become neurosurgeons.

 

[Captain_Falcon]

Honestly, just make it a four hour test instead of eight and cut all four sections in half. That way it’ll be more in line with the other standardized grad school tests, albeit still a bit longer. Nobody wants an eight hour test, and if they do, just let them become neurosurgeons.

What exactly does that accomplish? The mcat right now has a very strong confidence interval. Shortening each section in half would widen that confidence interval quite a bit

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Mmm yes the AAMC, such a bunch of dumb babies amirite

So are we just supposed to get rid of all objective measures and just go by feelz all the way through the process?

 

[efle]

So are we just supposed to get rid of all objective measures and just go by feelz all the way through the process?

No, just use measures appropriately, as they were designed. You should care that an MCAT score says you're gonna pass boards and graduate on time. You should care that a USMLE says you have enough knowledge to safely enter residency and will likely pass your specialty boards. Being down in the danger zones for failures on the next step of the pathway is always important to know about. But being 90th vs 75th percentile? Nah.

 

[Zen Arcade]

No, just use measures appropriately, as they were designed. You should care that an MCAT score says you're gonna pass boards and graduate on time. You should care that a USMLE says you have enough knowledge to safely enter residency and will likely pass your specialty boards. Being down in the danger zones for failures on the next step of the pathway is always important to know about. But being 90th vs 75th percentile? Nah.

I do think being the 90th vs 75th percentile on the MCAT gives a lot more confidence on the level of ability of the student than STEP given that the MCAT is specifically designed to stratify applicants and STEP is not.

 

[efle]

I do think being the 90th vs 75th percentile on the MCAT gives a lot more confidence on the level of ability of the student than STEP given that the MCAT is specifically designed to stratify applicants and STEP is not.

The AAMC position on the reworked MCAT was explicitly that 500 and up all have similar ability to predict passage of boards and successful graduation, and with Step going Pass/Fail, predicting pass is all that matters. Agree that if we're going to misuse one metric, better the MCAT than Step 1.

 

[7331poas]

No, just use measures appropriately, as they were designed. You should care that an MCAT score says you're gonna pass boards and graduate on time. You should care that a USMLE says you have enough knowledge to safely enter residency and will likely pass your specialty boards. Being down in the danger zones for failures on the next step of the pathway is always important to know about. But being 90th vs 75th percentile? Nah.

Great, then let PDs decide for themselves how they want to weight the exam. If board certified physicians agree with you then they will change their selection criteria accordingly.

And just based off the sample at my school, the lower performing MCAT takers in our class are definitely the same ones who have been "at risk" or failing tests, shelves, board exams. I don't believe for a single second that a 500 confers similar confidence as a 518

 

[efle]

Great, then let PDs decide for themselves how they want to weight the exam. If board certified physicians agree with you then they will change their selection criteria accordingly.

And just based off the sample at my school, the lower performing MCAT takers in our class are definitely the same ones who have been "at risk" or failing tests, shelves, board exams. I don't believe for a single second that a 500 confers similar confidence as a 518

haha because PDs would never do something inappropriate out of convenience, right? Gimme a break, they just need a sorting/filtering tool, a lot of them didn't even take Step 1 or if they did, had a ~200 average and didn't have it govern their match. "It's what they use so it must be good to use" is nonsense.

Data is data, whether you believe it or not. I'm interested to know how you learned the MCAT scores and test performances of all your classmates?

 

[7331poas]

haha because PDs would never do something inappropriate out of convenience, right? Gimme a break, they just need a sorting/filtering tool, a lot of them didn't even take Step 1 or if they did, had a ~200 average and didn't have it govern their match. "It's what they use so it must be good to use" is nonsense.

Data is data, whether you believe it or not. I'm interested to know how you learned the MCAT scores and test performances of all your classmates?

If you think PDs were inappropriately using step 1 then I seriously question why you think they are going to dedicate more time to selection now that it's pass fail? In fact, I know of programs that don't even read every application they receive, they just read the first x amount that arrive. If I were a PD, I would just interview everyone from brand name MD schools with step 2 > x and move on with my day.

I know people's scores because med school is a glorified middle school where everyone gossips about their tests, largely because they don't have anything better to talk about

 

[efle]

If you think PDs were inappropriately using step 1 then I seriously question why you think they are going to dedicate more time to selection now that it's pass fail? In fact, I know of programs that don't even read every application they receive, they just read the first x amount that arrive. If I were a PD, I would just interview everyone from brand name MD schools with step 2 > x and move on with my day.

I know people's scores because med school is a glorified middle school where everyone gossips about their tests, largely because they don't have anything better to talk about

I do sympathize with PD's position, they can't really be expected to thoroughly review 100+ applications per seat. But the fix is to reduce the apps per seat, not to use a junk metric to thin the herd. You've got some brave classmates telling each other about 500 MCATs and failed shelves, people keep that stuff pretty private around here!

To bring things a little back on topic - any other takes on whether lawyering up is the move in a situation like these students are in? The legal subreddits make it sound like the right thing is always to immediately get counsel, but sounds like Med Ed wouldn't bother getting one for himself

Edit: Highlights from their open letter

In defense of a student being investigated, a cybersecurity expert provided the
chair of the CSPC with evidence that the type of data being used against all
students cannot be used to definitively differentiate between human and
computer-generated traffic, and therefore, undermines the use of this data to
bring charges against students. This individual student’s investigation was
subsequently dropped. To our knowledge, the chair of the CSPC, Dr. Julie Kim,
did not share this information with the rest of the committee.
...
While the data used in all of these cases is equally
unreliable, some cases have been dismissed, while others have resulted in sanctions as severe
as expulsion. We fear that the main distinction between these groups is whether or not they had
access to outside legal counsel and technological expertise.

I feel like I would def want a "cybersecurity expert" on my side rather than trusting the school process

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

No, just use measures appropriately, as they were designed. You should care that an MCAT score says you're gonna pass boards and graduate on time. You should care that a USMLE says you have enough knowledge to safely enter residency and will likely pass your specialty boards. Being down in the danger zones for failures on the next step of the pathway is always important to know about. But being 90th vs 75th percentile? Nah.

Okay whew. I totally agree with all that.

 

[operaman]

I do sympathize with PD's position, they can't really be expected to thoroughly review 100+ applications per seat. But the fix is to reduce the apps per seat, not to use a junk metric to thin the herd. You've got some brave classmates telling each other about 500 MCATs and failed shelves, people keep that stuff pretty private around here!

To bring things a little back on topic - any other takes on whether lawyering up is the move in a situation like these students are in? The legal subreddits make it sound like the right thing is always to immediately get counsel, but sounds like Med Ed wouldn't bother getting one for himself

Edit: Highlights from their open letter

In defense of a student being investigated, a cybersecurity expert provided the
chair of the CSPC with evidence that the type of data being used against all
students cannot be used to definitively differentiate between human and
computer-generated traffic, and therefore, undermines the use of this data to
bring charges against students. This individual student’s investigation was
subsequently dropped. To our knowledge, the chair of the CSPC, Dr. Julie Kim,
did not share this information with the rest of the committee.
...
While the data used in all of these cases is equally
unreliable, some cases have been dismissed, while others have resulted in sanctions as severe
as expulsion. We fear that the main distinction between these groups is whether or not they had
access to outside legal counsel and technological expertise.

I feel like I would def want a "cybersecurity expert" on my side rather than trusting the school process

Yeah when I read that section my thought was that it’s not clear exactly where in the process that 1 student who hired their own person was. We’re they part of the initial large group that got dropped? Not sure. It also doesn’t say they never cheated, just that they disputed the evidence in this one specific case. The students infer that this could be extrapolated to all cases but that’s probably not accurate.

I have mixed feelings on lawyering up in things like this. There’s no right to counsel in school proceedings, but probably worth conferring with one of a career is on the line. Personally I would probably go through the set process up to a point on my own but with a low threshold to at least pay for an hour of advice.

 

[efle]

Yeah when I read that section my thought was that it’s not clear exactly where in the process that 1 student who hired their own person was. We’re they part of the initial large group that got dropped? Not sure. It also doesn’t say they never cheated, just that they disputed the evidence in this one specific case. The students infer that this could be extrapolated to all cases but that’s probably not accurate.

I have mixed feelings on lawyering up in things like this. There’s no right to counsel in school proceedings, but probably worth conferring with one of a career is on the line. Personally I would probably go through the set process up to a point on my own but with a low threshold to at least pay for an hour of advice.

Yea I guess if you think about it as risk/reward, the cost for an hour of advising versus losing your entire career on a preventable mistake is pretty worth

 

[Osteosaur]

I am just surprised they gave an in-house exam remotely, without camera monitoring...

I mean they caught them for accessing Canvas, but how many other students could've had a printout, or documents on another device?

Remote COMATs and Shelfs are even more insane to me. I don't know. I like to think everyone is beyond cheating at this level. Always sad to hear.

 

[efle]

I am just surprised they gave an in-house exam remotely, without camera monitoring...

I mean they caught them for accessing Canvas, but how many other students could've had a printout, or documents on another device?

Yeah that's another odd part of the picture. You'd have to have the dartmouth med students booting up examsoft, and knowing that they're in a lockout software that monitors them, proceed to cheat by directly accessing the relevant materials on canvas. Not what I'd expect someone trying to cheat in med school to come up with.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I am just surprised they gave an in-house exam remotely, without camera monitoring...

I mean they caught them for accessing Canvas, but how many other students could've had a printout, or documents on another device?

My school does both in-house and shelf exams without monitoring. I think it’s sketchy AF, but it’s also not my call. I am certain that several of my classmates are cheating.

 

[efle]

shelf exams without monitoring

ಠ_ಠ

 

[Steve_Zissou]

ಠ_ಠ

Yeah, super sketch. Talk about incentivizing students to cheat, especially since it goes on our MSPE.

 

[mwsapphire]

I do sympathize with PD's position, they can't really be expected to thoroughly review 100+ applications per seat. But the fix is to reduce the apps per seat, not to use a junk metric to thin the herd. You've got some brave classmates telling each other about 500 MCATs and failed shelves, people keep that stuff pretty private around here!

To bring things a little back on topic - any other takes on whether lawyering up is the move in a situation like these students are in? The legal subreddits make it sound like the right thing is always to immediately get counsel, but sounds like Med Ed wouldn't bother getting one for himself

Edit: Highlights from their open letter

In defense of a student being investigated, a cybersecurity expert provided the
chair of the CSPC with evidence that the type of data being used against all
students cannot be used to definitively differentiate between human and
computer-generated traffic, and therefore, undermines the use of this data to
bring charges against students. This individual student’s investigation was
subsequently dropped. To our knowledge, the chair of the CSPC, Dr. Julie Kim,
did not share this information with the rest of the committee.
...
While the data used in all of these cases is equally
unreliable, some cases have been dismissed, while others have resulted in sanctions as severe
as expulsion. We fear that the main distinction between these groups is whether or not they had
access to outside legal counsel and technological expertise.

I feel like I would def want a "cybersecurity expert" on my side rather than trusting the school process

I gotta say, I really admire that you have such a strong stance on not using insanely high exam scores to stratify applicants, while yourself being somebody who demolished standardized exams yourself. It just makes me happy.

 

[efle]

I gotta say, I really admire that you have such a strong stance on not using insanely high exam scores to stratify applicants, while yourself being somebody who demolished standardized exams yourself. It just makes me happy.

Doing well on MCQ tests doesn't even come close to the kinds of things many of my classmates have accomplished. It is truly humbling how hard working and ambitious my friends are. The idea that they'd get their ERAS screened out for average board scores boggles my mind.