Christian Vets

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I was in the process of typing something up, but it looks like Bisbee beat me to the punch and summed up my thoughts pretty nicely. (And far more concisely/coherently!) So... I'll spare you guys the drivel, and just give a "👍" to Bisbee.
 
Plus with all the movements that being gay is OK, I don't think it is anywhere near the issue it used to be and is pretty much a nonissue for most.

what? I can't get married because I'm gay. I can't get health insurance for a partner in my situations because I'm gay. I can't adopt a kid in most situations because I'm gay.
I could get fired from my current job at any time if my employer knew I was gay because the county I work in doesn't include orientation in nondiscrimination laws (no idea if my boss cares but not about to find out). What do you think that's like, being at work 10 hours a day and not being able to talk about the most important person in your life and having to skirt around the questions of you live with and whose car you drive to work every day?

I am all for "live and let live" as far as religion is concerned WHEN and only when people quit using their religion to tell me who I'm allowed to love.
 
Armymutt-The way that atheists (or any good people for that matter) know right from wrong comes from within. As humans, we have empathy for other humans. This means we can put ourselves into the place of another person and know how the other person feels. We see this with even small children when they take a toy away from a friend and the friend cries. The child stops and stares and comes to realize, sometimes after several similar situations, that the other child is sad. They then give the toy back or hug or do something to make up. We basically treat others the way we would like to be treated. We don't like to see other people upset or in pain. Sometimes it's hard, of course, when things get complicated with conflicts of interest and ethical choices. That is hard for everyone...there is no book written and no set of rules that can address every situation that can arise. But atheists are no different than religious people in trying to use our inner conscience to guide us. We do not need an outside god to tell us what is right or wrong. We know that if someone hits us that it hurts, so we don't hit others because we don't want them to hurt. We know it hurts us if someone takes our belongings, so we don't steal things from others because we don't want to hurt them. We know how disappointed we feel when someone lies to us, so we don't lie to others so they will not feel disappointed. We know right from wrong through our interaction with others and through our own feelings when we have been hurt by others. Simple as that.

Bisbee and Bigcat 👍
 
what? I can't get married because I'm gay. I can't get health insurance for a partner in my situations because I'm gay. I can't adopt a kid in most situations because I'm gay.
I could get fired from my current job at any time if my employer knew I was gay because the county I work in doesn't include orientation in nondiscrimination laws (no idea if my boss cares but not about to find out). What do you think that's like, being at work 10 hours a day and not being able to talk about the most important person in your life and having to skirt around the questions of you live with and whose car you drive to work every day?

I am all for "live and let live" as far as religion is concerned WHEN and only when people quit using their religion to tell me who I'm allowed to love.

I didn't mean it is a non-issue for those that are gay (which I think your situation stinks big time and shouldn't be that way, the adoption issue and marriage issue I knew about, but you shouldn't lose your job because you are gay!), I meant that it is probably a non-issue as far as voting goes. I could be wrong though. I think everyone will agree that gay acceptance has come a long way from even just 20-30 years ago!
 
If I may be so pert....Amen to both of you. In seriousness. This is why I actually enjoy talking with people from all walks of life and religion.

I do find it interesting, Spicy, that you decided on agnosticism because you felt you had no reason to believe one thing more than another. I choose Christianity for a very similar reason. I find that if I must take religion on faith (which is part of any religion), Christianity fits best with the kind of relationship I want with the God I believe in, and my world view.

I'd also like to bring a thought to the table for everyone from a professor of mine, that I think helps to bring a small explanation about why some logical rational minded scientists can also choose a faith based on a not always rational belief system. This particular professor was fond of pointing out that science shows a great many things, but PROVES none of them. We can explain gravity, and even have a great many equations and co-efficients that allow us to calculate gravity. But in the end, it is an unseen force. It is totally possible that gravity is not one downward force, but 6 upward forces and 3 downward forces that just happen to be greater. At the end of the day, we take it on faith that when we wake up the next morning, our feet will hit the floor and not the ceiling, and almost none of us will ever bother testing the direction of gravity everyday to see if it has changed.

For me, believing in the God of Christianity and the explanations offered by science is a similar process. I have had things happen in my life that can be well explained by the tenets of Christianity, and many things that can be well explained by science. Very rarely are they completely opposed, and a great many things cannot be explained by either. Therefore, at the end of the day, I choose to believe in both, the same way I believe in gravity.

Things like this are why I am agnostic, not athiest. You can prove something is there but the opposite is never true. Substances in Chemistry, for instance. If they are below a certain concentration we cannot detect them, yet they are there.

All the unhelpful visits I've had to the ER room have helped cement in me that medicine and (science in general) have a long way to go. I think what mankind knows compared to what there is to know is the same as comparing a few drops of water to an ocean. My individual knowledge is but a tiny fraction of those drops so how could I ever feel confident that I know enough to be assured there is no higher power out there? I don't know and I probably never will.

Sometimes I wonder what if all these religions are imperfect attemps to make sense of that "something else" that is out there? And true atheists could be right and there acould be absolutely nothing...but that brings us right back to how we'll never know for sure.

I guess with a lot of people this doesn't bother them but I've been thinking about it a lot because I have a serious problem I could die from (and it doesn't help that my insurance is dragging its feet to get me to a specialist) and I keep hoping that there isn't some "right" religion out there I failed to appease and will suffere the consequences when/if I die 🙁
 
He can't be a zombie, zombies want to eat you. Jesus wants you to eat him.

Y'know, communion.

"Man, if this is the blood of Christ, dude must have been WASTED"

Thank you, you two, for making my night 🙂
 
what? I can't get married because I'm gay. I can't get health insurance for a partner in my situations because I'm gay. I can't adopt a kid in most situations because I'm gay.
I could get fired from my current job at any time if my employer knew I was gay because the county I work in doesn't include orientation in nondiscrimination laws (no idea if my boss cares but not about to find out). What do you think that's like, being at work 10 hours a day and not being able to talk about the most important person in your life and having to skirt around the questions of you live with and whose car you drive to work every day?

I am all for "live and let live" as far as religion is concerned WHEN and only when people quit using their religion to tell me who I'm allowed to love.

yeah... quite honestly, I think homosexuality is definitely much less tolerated than being non-religious... there are a lot of people who are still disgusted by the idea (and an even bigger pool of people who just "accept" gays because that's the PC thing to do). I have yet to meet a non-lunatic person who feels a gut revulsion about me as a person because I'm non-religious. But who knows, maybe the religious peeps have a lower standard for me because I'm asian :shrug:.

I mean, you can even BELIEVE in god, and still be shunned for being gay! There aren't legislations against people who are non-religious, but there are a bunch for gay people. And even today, it's a battle to get rid of those.

And as for the election stuff, I don't think you can equate who america wants to vote into office to measure how much people discriminate groups of people. They're asked who should be president, and they think of attributes that might make for a good president. I think it's fair to say that people want a patriotic person who has a similar moral compass as their own amongst leadership skills and intelligence and such.

A majority of americans are christians (and a much bigger group being religious) and firmly believe that their religion is their moral compass. Some of the more crazies will believe that those who don't believe in their religion are immoral. But even the people who don't think that way will often want the country to be lead in the direction of their moral compass. It wasn't until pretty recently that the US and many european nations stopped believing in conquering other peoples in the name of spreading their religion (and now it seems like some of that's been replaced by "democracy"). Muslims and asians are consistently prejudiced as unpatriotic. But there's not really much rational at all (deranged and wrong as the former two were) for someone to not vote for homosexuals outside of pure hate. That does not mean that they're well tolerated in daily life.
 
I keep hoping that there isn't some "right" religion out there I failed to appease and will suffere the consequences when/if I die 🙁

Hey, well you'll be in good company 🙂.

Sorry to hear about your condition spicy... but aside from that, this quote reminds me a lot of the South Park episode with Billy Mays and Michael Jackson.

All these recently dead celebrities end up in hell, and they're wondering what they did wrong since they were religious and such. And the hell director goes: "I'm afraid it was the mormons," and everyone gives a collective sigh. Priceless.
 
Hey, well you'll be in good company 🙂.

Sorry to hear about your condition spicy... but aside from that, this quote reminds me a lot of the South Park episode with Billy Mays and Michael Jackson.

All these recently dead celebrities end up in hell, and they're wondering what they did wrong since they were religious and such. And the hell director goes: "I'm afraid it was the mormons," and everyone gives a collective sigh. Priceless.

Which episode is that?
 
I have yet to meet a non-lunatic person who feels a gut revulsion about me as a person because I'm non-religious.

I think part of that is because you've MET them. It's awfully easy to hate someone when you don't know their name.

Up here in MN our legislature just forced the marriage issue; we vote on it in 2012. Someone in support of the amendment (to recognize marriage as between man/woman) made a comment that really, really stuck out to me. He said: "We don't want to make this personal."

I thought: Of course you don't. You know that the second it becomes personal ... the second people start getting to know their gay neighbors ... the second they put names/faces on them ... the second they have a barbecue together ... the second they become FRIENDS ... your control of their fear vanishes and you lose.
 
Armymutt-The way that atheists (or any good people for that matter) know right from wrong comes from within. As humans, we have empathy for other humans. This means we can put ourselves into the place of another person and know how the other person feels. We see this with even small children when they take a toy away from a friend and the friend cries. The child stops and stares and comes to realize, sometimes after several similar situations, that the other child is sad. They then give the toy back or hug or do something to make up. We basically treat others the way we would like to be treated. We don't like to see other people upset or in pain. Sometimes it's hard, of course, when things get complicated with conflicts of interest and ethical choices. That is hard for everyone...there is no book written and no set of rules that can address every situation that can arise. But atheists are no different than religious people in trying to use our inner conscience to guide us. We do not need an outside god to tell us what is right or wrong. We know that if someone hits us that it hurts, so we don't hit others because we don't want them to hurt. We know it hurts us if someone takes our belongings, so we don't steal things from others because we don't want to hurt them. We know how disappointed we feel when someone lies to us, so we don't lie to others so they will not feel disappointed. We know right from wrong through our interaction with others and through our own feelings when we have been hurt by others. Simple as that.

What you are describing is based on a moral code that is distilled from a religious origin. The notion of good and evil are religious in origin. If you reject religion, you must reject all moral code associated with them. A child does not recognize their behavior is bad when they take something that causes another child to cry. It's purely a survival instinct. In order to preserve the species, one must ensure that those who can't fend for themselves have what they need. You can see the same thing among animals. Unless your motives are purely self preservation, where your behavior is guided by the laws of man out of fear of retribution, then you must subscribe to some sort of religious teaching, whether you recognize it or not. If that is the case, you are merely worshiping a man rather than a deity. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you has its roots in religion. By subscribing to that theory, you admit a belief in religious teachings.

The closest thing I've seen to atheism is an pseudo-anarchic Iraq in '03. People said, "I'm free!" and did what ever they wanted. It was quite interesting to watch.
 
It wasn't until pretty recently that the US and many european nations stopped believing in conquering other peoples in the name of spreading their religion (and now it seems like some of that's been replaced by "democracy").

When has the US ever believed in conquering to subjugate them to a religion? European nations haven't engaged in a religious conquest since 1291. The Peace of Westphalia was signed in 1648. That ended the closest thing you could call a religious war in Europe. Muslim nations, on the other hand, have engaged in many religious conquerings since that time, notably Constantinople. "Pretty recently" is a rather vague term, but since you included the US, I'm going to assume you mean 20th century. In that case, the only ones trying to conquer and spread religion are some muslim nations. In fact, those are the only nations I can think of that have purely religious laws on their books. I can't fault them - it's part of their dogma.
 
Actually, it is the many religions which have adopted and incorporated the human in society's sense of right and wrong into their teachings! The Bible and other religious books were written by humans and included the obvious ideals the human species has carried along from prehistoric times in order to survive as a culture (do not steal, do not kill, do not lie, etc.) The people who wrote these books got these ideas from living with others, not from a god. It is not just individual survival...it is species survival which depends upon our having empathy. There are some people in this world without empathy; those are the sociopaths/psychopaths. There is scientific evidence that there is the normal and abnormal in this regard. The normal person does have empathy, and it is a result of neural connections within the brain and not a set of rules given by religion.
 
It seems like the poll would naturally get more nos for atheists. No one is afraid to say that they won't vote for an atheist, but who's gonna put down that they discriminate against women and wouldn't vote for a woman, or are racist and wouldn't vote for a black. Plus with all the movements that being gay is OK, I don't think it is anywhere near the issue it used to be and is pretty much a nonissue for most. Then people aren't gonna say they wouldn't vote for someone just because they are muslim because that seems more like discrimination. But to not vote for someone because they do not believe in God, that doesn't really seem like discrimination to most so they'd say no they wouldn't vote for an atheist.

So the fact that it's more socially acceptable to discriminate against atheists means that they aren't more discriminated against than other minorities, is that right? Do you not see that the fact that it is somehow "okay" to say that you're against people who don't believe in god but not against gays, people of color or people of other religions (Muslim) just proves my point?
 
I have yet to meet a non-lunatic person who feels a gut revulsion about me as a person because I'm non-religious.

You're lucky. I've been actively involved (on the "front lines" so to speak) in trying to put a face on atheism in my community and nationwide. I've given talks, put together events such as community service projects, etc. I have had people scream out of their car window that I'm going to hell while I and other group members are cleaning up a little old lady's yard and painting her shed.

Atheist billboards and bus ads simply announcing that it's possible to be good without God are vandalized or simply (and illegally) refused by advertizing agencies.

Perhaps one of the most illuminating examples is that of the Fort Bragg event, "Rock Beyond Belief." A summary of the circumstances is given here: http://friendlyatheist.com/category/military-atheists/page/2/

I can't think of a more traditionally accepted group in America than white, heterosexual soldiers. Unless you don't believe in god, that is. In fact, the very psychological evaluation that the Army uses for "soldier fitness" includes a questionaire about "spirituality", indicating that an atheist soldier is somehow less fit to serve.
 
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Actually, it is the many religions which have adopted and incorporated the human in society's sense of right and wrong into their teachings! The Bible and other religious books were written by humans and included the obvious ideals the human species has carried along from prehistoric times in order to survive as a culture (do not steal, do not kill, do not lie, etc.) The people who wrote these books got these ideas from living with others, not from a god. It is not just individual survival...it is species survival which depends upon our having empathy. There are some people in this world without empathy; those are the sociopaths/psychopaths. There is scientific evidence that there is the normal and abnormal in this regard. The normal person does have empathy, and it is a result of neural connections within the brain and not a set of rules given by religion.

Can you prove this? Do you not believe there were religions that pre-date Abraham? I know for a fact that there were - played the bagpipes on top of one of their temples. Animals require a higher authority to compel them to behave in a certain way. For my dogs, it is me. Most primitive people have a holy man of some sorts. The best way to subjugate a people is to tell them that a higher authority wants them to do it. What's higher than man? Even before the diving right of kings was postulated to ensure familial succession, the king told his subjects that he ruled by the grace of a higher authority than man. After all, if all men are equal, then how does one best another if not for the grace of a higher power? This has been standard operating procedure since humans formed non-family groups. All rules governing human behavior descend from a religious nature. You're being short sighted in considering only the Judeo-Christian traditions. Ever notice that the more impoverished a people, the more religious they are? Do you think the Holy See took up residence in France for a few years just to have a change of pace? Whomever controlled the Pope controlled the people. No king is about to let religion get in the way of economy. No one got together at the dawn of civilization and said "let's be nice to each other." Some one, some where said "the creator wants us to get along." How else do you account for a creation story in every culture in the world? The ancients knew nothing about science. They created religion and made laws based on it. Therefore, as an atheist, how can you allow those laws to be your guide?
 
Wow, ArmuMutt25A, you really don't think much of your fellow human beings. Fear of retribution is our only incentive to act morally--well, again, what's YOUR explanation for my moral code? Just curious. (I was raised Catholic and that particular moral code really, REALLY does not sit right with me. Way too judgemental, exclusionary and dare I saw it downright MEAN.)

Anyways.

Thanks for the article, JulesMichy. It really makes my blood boil that my federal tax dollars went to that event. And Christians fight atheism/gay rights/etc with the argument that others (atheists, gays) are ACTIVELY trying to IMPOSE their beliefs on the Christians. I absolutely never understood that logic and the power of self-delusion away from any sort of logical thinking continues to amaze me.
 
I can't think of a more traditionally accepted group in America than white, heterosexual soldiers. Unless you don't believe in god, that is. In fact, the very psychological evaluation that the Army uses for "soldier fitness" includes a questionaire about "spirituality", indicating that an atheist soldier is somehow less fit to serve.

It's been 10 years since I went through MEPS, but I don't recall any sort of questionaire regarding religion, other than what you want on your dog tags. Those that put no preference or something odd like Jedi were pulled aside and counseled on the ramifications regarding this. Those ramifications being that if dead on the battlefield, the chaplain will move on to the next soldier upon reading "No Pref" on the tags. I'll ask my buddy who is a psychologist at the Special Warfare School regarding said questionaire as they actually do psych evals there. Again, no psych evals present when I went through MEPS. They were more concerned about drugs, physical health, gang tattoos, and whether you had bits of metal in unusual places. There were plenty of athiests and No Prefs in both my basic training class and my unit. Never saw any sort of discrimination. Of course, with a few exceptions, we don't exactly talk about religion in the infantry. You are judged on your ability to do your job, and your ability to recover from it mentally.
 
It's been 10 years since I went through MEPS, but I don't recall any sort of questionaire regarding religion, other than what you want on your dog tags. Those that put no preference or something odd like Jedi were pulled aside and counseled on the ramifications regarding this. Those ramifications being that if dead on the battlefield, the chaplain will move on to the next soldier upon reading "No Pref" on the tags. I'll ask my buddy who is a psychologist at the Special Warfare School regarding said questionaire as they actually do psych evals there. Again, no psych evals present when I went through MEPS. They were more concerned about drugs, physical health, gang tattoos, and whether you had bits of metal in unusual places. There were plenty of athiests and No Prefs in both my basic training class and my unit. Never saw any sort of discrimination. Of course, with a few exceptions, we don't exactly talk about religion in the infantry. You are judged on your ability to do your job, and your ability to recover from it mentally.

http://friendlyatheist.com/2010/12/22/an-army-survey-biased-against-foxhole-atheists/

There's the questionaire itself. Atheist soldiers are definitely discriminated against. Read the "Rock Beyond Belief" link posted above. Atheist soldiers also have been lobbying for secular humanist chaplains for years now and the military refuses to provide them. There also have been several incidents where a religious event was sponsored on base and soldiers were given leave/encouraged to attend the event and those that refused were forced to perform menial labor in the barracks.
 
But I also know that, for instance, here at work it's the Christians who are dismissively laughed at, not the atheists.
I think where you live has a large impact on it too. Societal norms and all that. One can see here that as a trend, it gets more irreligious the further north you go.

It's my understanding that it's that way in Europe as well. You're criticized for being religious, because it's pretty rare over there evidently.

But then, I'm in a highly technical arena, which maybe has a higher share of non-believers? I don't know
Vet med is pretty technical in its own right, yet there seem to be quite a few religious veterinarians. I'm not sure the two go hand in hand.

And I'm not gay
Yah I love the 'you support gay rights? Guess you're gay!" false dichotomy. Granted, I'm not gay, but I'm not black or female either and still feel they should have rights. I think it's just another way for people to dismiss other people they don't like: the civil rights issue of our time.

That article is interesting but I constantly wonder why people have to "go public" with their views.
Because it's just assumed that people are religious in some form in the USA. It's important that others realize that there are non-religious people out there who are good people. I've had a couple of people who seemed truly shocked when I told them I was an atheist. "You're an atheist?!" followed by a look of disbelief, as if I'd just told them I was a mammoth or sabre-toothed tiger (unfortunately I cannot make either of those claims). There's a lot of indoctrination that atheists are bad people that needs to be overcome.

I struggled with this myself a lot when I was in the process of renouncing religion. I'd always been taught and had it reinforced through church, media, and society that atheists are bad people as a whole, so I certainly wasn't entirely sure I wanted to be one. I got over it though. 😎

I repeat - there are tons of transitional forms.
Technically every form is a transitional form. When people ask for transitional forms, I think it's a bit of a red flag that they don't truly understand evolution. I think they expect to see the (in)famous example of a duck with a crocodile's body. That's just not how it works.

I try to keep the bayonet sheathed here.
That sounds dirty. 😛

what ever that means without a code of behavior issued from a higher power. If you believe that, you have been living a very sheltered life. What determines right and wrong? These are moral discriminators and require some sort of guidance to back them up. What is the source of this guidance?
Why does morality have to come from a higher power? My wager is that it's a bunch of laws that society agreed on as a whole that's been refined through the ages (much like religion). See the Code of Hammurabi, for instance.

Sure religion helps keep some order through the threat of eternal damnation (which you can evidently get out of by saying a few words) but so do police officers. I'm an atheist and don't go running around killing people. One can argue that it's because I was raised religious but that's a poor argument because there's people out there just as unlikely to slaughter as I am who've been raised atheist.
 
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Wow, ArmuMutt25A, you really don't think much of your fellow human beings. Fear of retribution is our only incentive to act morally--well, again, what's YOUR explanation for my moral code? Just curious. (I was raised Catholic and that particular moral code really, REALLY does not sit right with me. Way too judgemental, exclusionary and dare I saw it downright MEAN.)

Like I said before, I've seen too much of the world. Humans are the meanest, most despicable creatures on the planet. But, you missed my point. No one has yet to answer what authority your moral code is rooted in. I postulate that you subscribe to a moral code that is based on religious teachings. You refuse to believe that and claim it just happened or that you had some original thoughts on the subject of behavior. If it just happened, then how it that different than the creation story? What makes it wrong to steal something from another human, but not to drink water from a brook? Here's a hint - the brook isn't going to smack you.
 
Like I said before, I've seen too much of the world. Humans are the meanest, most despicable creatures on the planet. But, you missed my point. No one has yet to answer what authority your moral code is rooted in. I postulate that you subscribe to a moral code that is based on religious teachings. You refuse to believe that and claim it just happened or that you had some original thoughts on the subject of behavior. If it just happened, then how it that different than the creation story? What makes it wrong to steal something from another human, but not to drink water from a brook? Here's a hint - the brook isn't going to smack you.

You just answered your own question. Head over to talkorigins.org for answers to your questions. Specifically do a search for "evolutionary altruism" and "morality". It basically boils down to this: we are social animals. Certain behaviors have consequences to the individual or social group as a whole. Those behaviors are selected against through failure to thrive of the individuals exhibiting those traits. Over time, certain "moral" behaviors are left via both genetic predisposition and cultural pressure.
 
When has the US ever believed in conquering to subjugate them to a religion? European nations haven't engaged in a religious conquest since 1291. The Peace of Westphalia was signed in 1648. That ended the closest thing you could call a religious war in Europe. Muslim nations, on the other hand, have engaged in many religious conquerings since that time, notably Constantinople. "Pretty recently" is a rather vague term, but since you included the US, I'm going to assume you mean 20th century. In that case, the only ones trying to conquer and spread religion are some muslim nations. In fact, those are the only nations I can think of that have purely religious laws on their books. I can't fault them - it's part of their dogma.

You're right that the US is not nearly as culpable of world conquest, but it's not entirely guilt-free either. The American Indian Religious Freedom Act didn't pass until 1978. And no, the demise of the Native Americans didn't start in the 20th century, but that those people have been f***ed hard core pretty much since the colonists arrived. And I wasn't talking exactly about conquest for the expressed intent of spreading religion as much as using religion as justification for conquest. It's been a common theme throughout history that it's ok to conquer a "savage" nations because those peoples need to be saved. And while a lot of those started long ago, that attitude prevailed for a long time. I mean, look at India and the Belgian Congo. Both went well into the 20th century, and exemplifies those attitudes.

Now, that's totally waaay off topic, but that's where my comment came from. Really have no intention of arguing my view as I have a feeling we're never going to agree, but oh wells. That's what happens when a military dude and liberal urban hippie recounts history together 🙄. Interpretation is going to be polarized at best.
 
Like I said before, I've seen too much of the world. Humans are the meanest, most despicable creatures on the planet.

I like JulesMichy's response to the rest of your questions--the sites referred to are excellent. I'll just address this thought right here.....

Have you heard of the discipline of sociology? How group behavior can influence the behavior of an individual, and vice-versa? The complex interplay between the individual and the group?People get their PhDs in this stuff, etc.

You have seen war-torn areas with people in their most desperate, base state who are also influenced by charismatic, sometimes psychopathic/sociopathic leaders. People drunk on power. People who have PTSD. Etc. If you put these very same people in a nice orderly suburb and give them directions to the grocery store, you think they're going to run around killing people?

The power of the group is tremendous and underestimated in your thinking. But--it has absolutely nothing to do with a belief or disbelief in god. Although it's flattering to your patients that you believe we are no different from animals. 😉

(Actually, in some ways we aren't--see JulesMichy's discussion of ethology as it relates to moral behavior.)
 
Armymutt-First of all, it is not the burden of the non-believer to prove anything. You, as the believer, must submit the proof. No matter how far back you go and in whatever religion, there is no proof that a spiritual being told humans how to behave. Additionally, the idea of all creatures having a higher power is interesting. If you believe that humans must have a higher power, how about the fact that adults serve that role for children until they reach an age of reason? After that, it is the rules and laws formed by culture and society which serve as boundaries along with that reason and empathy. Any point you may bring up can be addressed and explained without bringing a spirit/mystical being into the mix. Please, just realize that we atheists are good people without any religion-based rules or spirit. We use our reasoning and empathy to be good people, just like you. Unless you are saying that you don't feel that sense of caring for others and only do so because of the rules of religion? That would be too bad.
 
http://friendlyatheist.com/2010/12/22/an-army-survey-biased-against-foxhole-atheists/

There's the questionaire itself. Atheist soldiers are definitely discriminated against. Read the "Rock Beyond Belief" link posted above. Atheist soldiers also have been lobbying for secular humanist chaplains for years now and the military refuses to provide them. There also have been several incidents where a religious event was sponsored on base and soldiers were given leave/encouraged to attend the event and those that refused were forced to perform menial labor in the barracks.

Obviously, you've never been in the Army. First off, that questionaire is anonymous, so no backlash can be made. It is the Army's response to suicides. Congress gets their panties in a bunch because soldiers are killing themselves. They demand the Army do something about it - just as the Army demands leaders do something about soldiers driving drunk. Both crazy demands. So, they came up with this little thing. The spiritual aspect is simply a way to see if the soldier feels that there is something to live for. If you read the instructions, you will see it is a self assessment tool. The one I'm more worried about is the I-TRACS which indicated that I was a high risk soldier because I was an E-4 or below. Never mind that I was 26 and older than my squad leader. To address your event paranoia, you are referring to what we call "Rent-a-crowd" or mandatory fun. Basically, someone either decides to bring in some entertainment or an group volunteers to come. In order to not offend our guests, incentives are offered to get people to go. So, the commander says if you go to this event, you don't have to come to work. The event is your place of duty. The place of duty for those who don't want to participate is the normal company area. The Army is all about menial labor. We can't be training all the time. It's not just for religious events. Do you have any idea how many times I was subjected to Winona Judd while at Ft. Campbell? The division commander was a friend of hers. You get the same treatment if you don't want to go to the drunken party known as the Battalion Dining In or want to give money to the Association of the United States Army. A little too sensitive in picking out a religious event. I had to chip tile from below the urinal because I wasn't doing the Expert Infantry Badge training - got to the unit too late.

Why does morality have to come from a higher power? My wager is that it's a bunch of laws that society agreed on as a whole that's been refined through the ages (much like religion). See the Code of Hammurabi, for instance.

Sure religion helps keep some order through the threat of eternal damnation (which you can evidently get out of by saying a few words) but so do police officers. I'm an atheist and don't go running around killing people. One can argue that it's because I was raised religious but that's a poor argument because there's people out there just as unlikely to slaughter as I am who've been raised atheist.

You cited a set of laws decided upon by a king who prefaced the law with "Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule in the land." Not exactly helping your position, dude. 🙂 Where do police officers derive their power? All morals are derived from a religious origin. People feared what would happen to them if they didn't obey.
 
There are thousands of examples of indigenous people in almost every part of the world who have gotten along just fine for thousands of years without the Judeo/Christian/Muslim version of a 'God'. The proper way to behave and conduct yourself is passed down from generation to generation based on what has worked for them in the past.

A good example of this is the story of the orphaned elephants in Pilanesberg Reserve. All the adult elephants were killed off to control population, but then there were no adults left to teach the younger ones how to act. They were rampaging the park and killing people and other animals. When the park decided to bring back in some older bulls, they got those adolescent elephants back in check right quick and all the inappropriate behavior stopped.

Many of the people in my own family who identify themselves as Christians believe that the Bible teaches them that they are above all other living things (I could write a book about all the ways that humans are not better than animals, but I digress.) They would have to dismiss this story because it would be considered degrading yourself to draw any parallel between humans and elephants for example. But the evidence is there whether you choose to believe it or not.
 
You just answered your own question. Head over to talkorigins.org for answers to your questions. Specifically do a search for "evolutionary altruism" and "morality". It basically boils down to this: we are social animals. Certain behaviors have consequences to the individual or social group as a whole. Those behaviors are selected against through failure to thrive of the individuals exhibiting those traits. Over time, certain "moral" behaviors are left via both genetic predisposition and cultural pressure.

You have just proven my point. The threat of retribution is your guide.

That's what happens when a military dude and liberal urban hippie recounts history together 🙄. Interpretation is going to be polarized at best.

You'd probably be very surprised by what you'd find if you actually knew me. In the final distillation, I end up as a Libertarian of sorts. Far right when it comes to money and entitlements. Far left when it comes to umm..other stuff. See the thread regarding piercings and vet school. Remember, I get paid to deconstruct people's ideas in order to ensure they are fully thought out and that we don't waste time, money, and lives on them. You're simply getting a return on your taxes!
 
You have just proven my point. The threat of retribution is your guide.

Retribution......but not DIVINE retribution. There is a tremendous difference.

And yes, since it is you who believe in the positive (i.e., "there IS a God") the burden of proof is on YOU. Not on those who do NOT believe ("there IS NOT a God").

So--what is your unequivocal proof?
 
I postulate that you subscribe to a moral code that is based on religious teachings.
That assumes that religion exists though. Could be that man created the laws same as he created religion, so I postulate just that. My moral code is based on religious teachings that are based on mankind's general desire for stability.

You cited a set of laws decided upon by a king who prefaced the law with "Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule in the land." Not exactly helping your position, dude
That's not really the point. Besides, what better way to control the unwashed masses and reinforce your rule than to claim that the gods gave you the power and the law is divinely inspired? Words mean naught without evidence.

Where do police officers derive their power? All morals are derived from a religious origin. People feared what would happen to them if they didn't obey.
The ability to toss you in prison for several years isn't exactly a religious origin.
 
Retribution......but not DIVINE retribution. There is a tremendous difference.

And yes, since it is you who believe in the positive (i.e., "there IS a God") the burden of proof is on YOU. Not on those who do NOT believe ("there IS NOT a God").

So--what is your unequivocal proof?

You were the one who was offended at my idea that retribution is the only thing keeping you on the straight and narrow. I never said anything about divine retribution. Who are you to decide where the burden of proof lies? I can't prove existence any more than you can prove non-existence. If you don't think a negative can't be proven, plug in a Hoover.

So, here's a question for you. For what purpose do humans exist? Every other object nature has created has a purpose somewhere, except humans. If humans are not here to serve a higher being, then why should we not wipe them all out? The Earth would certainly be better off.
 
That assumes that religion exists though. Could be that man created the laws same as he created religion, so I postulate just that. My moral code is based on religious teachings that are based on mankind's general desire for stability.

That's not really the point. Besides, what better way to control the unwashed masses and reinforce your rule than to claim that the gods gave you the power and the law is divinely inspired?

The ability to toss you in prison for several years isn't exactly a religious origin.

I agree that it is possible man created both, but it does not address my question. If the laws are based on religion and you don't believe in religion, then why do you follow the laws derived from such? The ability to toss you in prison is really just an attenuation of the original punishments. Death for every infraction is a bit harsh, though I think we need to bring it back for all driving violations other than speeding. Especially when you pull into my lane while I'm riding my bike.
 
You were the one who was offended at my idea that retribution is the only thing keeping you on the straight and narrow. I never said anything about divine retribution. Who are you to decide where the burden of proof lies? I can't prove existence any more than you can prove non-existence. If you don't think a negative can't be proven, plug in a Hoover.

So, here's a question for you. For what purpose do humans exist? Every other object nature has created has a purpose somewhere, except humans. If humans are not here to serve a higher being, then why should we not wipe them all out? The Earth would certainly be better off.

There is not an invisible alien standing in my living room. How exactly do I go about proving that? If you say that because I can't see, hear touch or smell this invisible alien--tell me how you can see/hear/touch/smell God. etc etc etc

So that we are speaking the same language here--give me some examples of the "purpose" of other natural objects.

ETA: And I think the purpose of religion is precisely to make man feel that he is important, that he matters, that his existence is not all for naught--which is pretty darn egotistical.
 
Just wanted to mention this as well:

Religion may have been useful in the past, when there were few organized governments, and no legal moral code from which to lead our lives.

However, in today's times, that's no longer the case. It doesn't really matter how our moral code originated--the fact of the matter is, people back then didn't know about science so they had no choice in the matter. They thought the earth was flat, for example (although that may have been disproven recently? not sure, but still an apt example). They didn't know what caused disease so they said that G-d made people sick to punish them--now we know it's due to bacteria, fungi, and viruses. Could that be G-d's way of making people sick? Maybe, but then how do you explain innocent babies dying when they have not yet had a chance to proclaim their religion?

Nowadays, we don't need religion to be our moral code as a society because we have laws. And that little thing called Kohlberg's stages of moral identity (psychology/sociology). Nowhere are religious backings mentioned, but they are, as others said, based on the threat of retribution until the very highest level, where morality is based on the fact that laws should have a grounding in justice and not just be there because a judge said so (ie, segregation is not moral, even if it was legal).

I don't really care how moral codes came about, tbh. Because we live in a very different world today than we did 2000 years ago. Back then, we might have needed belief in a higher power to govern our actions (whether or not that is the actuality has yet to be determined), but today, that's not the case.
 
Burden of proof must always fall on the person making the positive assertion/claim. That is why it is so in courts of law and is a "given" in any debate situation. If not, anyone could make up anything (like AllieCat's alien in the living room or tooth fairies or santa clause) and we'd all have a ridiculous time of it trying to prove it does not exist. In science, in order to prove something we use measurements as a means of detection: mass, density, etc. The concept of a god cannot be measured. When we cannot measure/detect something we say there is "nothing" there. So, there is no difference between god and nothing when you actually do the scientific investigation.
 
There is not an invisible alien standing in my living room. How exactly do I go about proving that? If you say that because I can't see, hear touch or smell this invisible alien--tell me how you can see/hear/touch/smell God. etc etc etc

So that we are speaking the same language here--give me some examples of the "purpose" of other natural objects.

ETA: And I think the purpose of religion is precisely to make man feel that he is important, that he matters, that his existence is not all for naught--which is pretty darn egotistical.

The notion that there must be a physical presence in your life for you to believe in something smacks of insecurity. I believe love exists, but I haven't seen a physical entity of it. To me, something had to set the conditions for the big bang to occur. Haven't seen a physical proof for that yet. Everything just says it existed. Well, what made it exist?

Trees provide shelter, O2, etc. Birds spread seeds around. Scavengers eat dead animals. That sort of thing. Humans don't do squat for the Earth.

There's a lot of egotistical stuff going on. The idea that one person is good enough to be in charge of everyone else in a country is the same. Are you recommending that we become an anarcho-syndicalist commune? The fact remains that laws were created based on a religious belief somewhere in human history and that those who subscribe to those laws subscribe to the religious teachings that provided said laws. If you don't believe in the foundations upon which those laws are based, then how can you subscribe to those laws?
 
P.S. When did this turn into a religious debate? The OP wanted to know if someone's Christianity affected their practice as a vet student/veterinarian. Some have said no, others have said yes. But that's a personal choice, and who really cares either way unless that person is uninvitingly pushing their viewpoints on others (which we've all agreed isn't cool).
 
Burden of proof must always fall on the person making the positive assertion/claim. That is why it is so in courts of law and is a "given" in any debate situation. If not, anyone could make up anything (like AllieCat's alien in the living room or tooth fairies or santa clause) and we'd all have a ridiculous time of it trying to prove it does not exist. In science, in order to prove something we use measurements as a means of detection: mass, density, etc. The concept of a god cannot be measured. When we cannot measure/detect something we say there is "nothing" there. So, there is no difference between god and nothing when you actually do the scientific investigation.

What's the mass and density of the air in a vacuum? You can't measure it, but you know it's there. You can feel it, right? Ever been out on the ocean? From the surface, the Earth looks flat. Until you change your perspective, you can't prove that it isn't flat. You can't even visually tell that the Earth isn't flat until you are in space. These are easy things to check and yet it took thousands of years for humans to prove them as facts.
 
The notion that there must be a physical presence in your life for you to believe in something smacks of insecurity. I believe love exists, but I haven't seen a physical entity of it. To me, something had to set the conditions for the big bang to occur. Haven't seen a physical proof for that yet. Everything just says it existed. Well, what made it exist?

Trees provide shelter, O2, etc. Birds spread seeds around. Scavengers eat dead animals. That sort of thing. Humans don't do squat for the Earth.

There's a lot of egotistical stuff going on. The idea that one person is good enough to be in charge of everyone else in a country is the same. Are you recommending that we become an anarcho-syndicalist commune? The fact remains that laws were created based on a religious belief somewhere in human history and that those who subscribe to those laws subscribe to the religious teachings that provided said laws. If you don't believe in the foundations upon which those laws are based, then how can you subscribe to those laws?

You say "insecurity," I saw "scientific reasoning"...tomatoe, tomato.... 😉 "Love" is an emotion that can be defined by measuring the release of various neurotransmitters and specific areas of brain activity on an fMRI. It is a functional adaptation to the human species to ensure survival. Altricial young and all that. Doesn't mean it's not fun and very fulfilling, but it IS an evolutionary adapatation. See also vasopressin in the naked mole rate, etc etc etc....

Really, you would do very well to take an ethology class. 🙂

What is the purpose of humans? We contribute to the food chain just like everything else. Our brains evolved and we have come up with many detrimental environmental constructs, to be sure--but primitive man definitely had his own purpose in the food chain. We still do in many places on earth, in fact. We don't exist in that Hoover you mentioned earlier.

As far as having to believe in religion in order to follow any sort of law because the human moral code was attributed to a divine being before we knew the evolutionary/behavioral/scientific basis for such things (again, look at ethology)--I disagree. (Same thing for the flat-earthers, etc.)
 
P.S. When did this turn into a religious debate? The OP wanted to know if someone's Christianity affected their practice as a vet student/veterinarian. Some have said no, others have said yes. But that's a personal choice, and who really cares either way unless that person is uninvitingly pushing their viewpoints on others (which we've all agreed isn't cool).

When did the vegan vet student thread turn into a conversation on American english spelling versus British english spelling?

Eh........ 😉 This is much closer to topic, actually.
 
What's the mass and density of the air in a vacuum? You can't measure it, but you know it's there. You can feel it, right? Ever been out on the ocean? From the surface, the Earth looks flat. Until you change your perspective, you can't prove that it isn't flat. You can't even visually tell that the Earth isn't flat until you are in space. These are easy things to check and yet it took thousands of years for humans to prove them as facts.

So you would think that given thousands of years SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE could come up with JUST ONE teensy, eensy little FACT supporting the existence of God.........
 
So you would think that given thousands of years SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE could come up with JUST ONE teensy, eensy little FACT supporting the existence of God.........

Well, given the fact that when I was in 2nd grade, we were told we'd be living on the moon and that the big dipper would look like a W by 2000, I'm not surprised at all. A lot of "facts" aren't proving much.
 
Well, given the fact that when I was in 2nd grade, we were told we'd be living on the moon and that the big dipper would look like a W by 2000, I'm not surprised at all. A lot of "facts" aren't proving much.

Discounting a completely irrelevant statement is not an argument for your own position. Next.
 
You say "insecurity," I saw "scientific reasoning"...tomatoe, tomato.... 😉 "Love" is an emotion that can be defined by measuring the release of various neurotransmitters and specific areas of brain activity on an fMRI. It is a functional adaptation to the human species to ensure survival. Altricial young and all that. Doesn't mean it's not fun and very fulfilling, but it IS an evolutionary adapatation. See also vasopressin in the naked mole rate, etc etc etc....

Really, you would do very well to take an ethology class. 🙂

What is the purpose of humans? We contribute to the food chain just like everything else. Our brains evolved and we have come up with many detrimental environmental constructs, to be sure--but primitive man definitely had his own purpose in the food chain. We still do in many places on earth, in fact. We don't exist in that Hoover you mentioned earlier.

As far as having to believe in religion in order to follow any sort of law because the human moral code was attributed to a divine being before we knew the evolutionary/behavioral/scientific basis for such things (again, look at ethology)--I disagree. (Same thing for the flat-earthers, etc.)


Eh, that's true, I guess. I was trying for some appeasement from the other side (those practicing/following a religious belief). I was born and raised Jewish, but my family is/was very reformed. I believe I am now more of a cultural Jew than a religious one (and Judaism is a culture, which I am very thankful for).

I was kind of like, religion had its purpose back then, but not so much anymore? Beyond personal spiritual reasons, I mean.
 
Can you prove this? Do you not believe there were religions that pre-date Abraham?

I took a world religion class in college and I think it was the best thing I have ever did. It is remarkable how almost all major religions are exactly the same. If I can remember correctly I think there were several that pre-dated judaism. If morals come from god, and if there is only one god, then only one religion would have morals. Yet we see many, many, many religions all over the world exuding the same message on morals, life, and afterlife, coincidence or human nurture?
 
Eh, that's true, I guess. I was trying for some appeasement from the other side (those practicing/following a religious belief). I was born and raised Jewish, but my family is/was very reformed. I believe I am now more of a cultural Jew than a religious one (and Judaism is a culture, which I am very thankful for).

I was kind of like, religion had its purpose back then, but not so much anymore? Beyond personal spiritual reasons, I mean.

I totally agree with you--religion did (and does) have its purpose, to be sure. 🙂 Didn't mean to imply that religion is purposeless or anything--I think you're totally right-on.

And P.S. If I could choose to believe in something and actually BELIEVE it--I would totally choose Judaism. 😉
 
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