Co 22’ application season thread

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For the DO applicants, how many applications did you apply to? Did you apply to any other back up specialties? Thanks in advance 🙂

Edit: any place I can find programs not to apply to?
 
4thtimeretaker said:
For the DO applicants, how many applications did you apply to? Did you apply to any other back up specialties? Thanks in advance 🙂

Edit: any place I can find programs not to apply to?
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I applied to 89 IR and 113 DR total, some added a few days after apps opened. I got interviews at places I’d never dreamed of going, that are out of region and/or are in states I thought I hated, which are now in my top 5.

I also didn’t get interviews at places that are in state for my med school, where I grew up, or both who have also taken grads from my med school before. I feel like there is a huge element of randomness to this process and there’s really no way to know what programs are a “safety” for you.

I did apply a backup specialty - IM. I applied to 7 very carefully targeted IM programs, in areas I had connections to, and wrote them their own personal statements. I withdrew one almost right away because I changed my mind about being willing to go there, but of the remaining six active apps, I got five interviews and attended four. I think I could be happy at any of them if it came to that.
 
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Hey rads app fam - if you feel a little short on the prelims/TYs, Broward Health North in Deerfield Beach, FL just announced approval for a brand new TY, and they wanna recruit through the match for July. It's taking apps in ERAS right now, it's not HCA, and it has 16 spots. I know nothing else except Deerfield Beach is a nice if you like white sandy beaches and to walk around in shorts and a tank top in January.

Obviously the downside is being in the first class, but the upside is it's a TY, so IMO that doesn't really matter as long as you have somewhere to go. I know the TY associated with Broward main campus is supposed to be chill
 
calivianya said:
Hey rads app fam - if you feel a little short on the prelims/TYs, Broward Health North in Deerfield Beach, FL just announced approval for a brand new TY, and they wanna recruit through the match for July. It's taking apps in ERAS right now, it's not HCA, and it has 16 spots. I know nothing else except Deerfield Beach is a nice if you like white sandy beaches and to walk around in shorts and a tank top in January.

Obviously the downside is being in the first class, but the upside is it's a TY, so IMO that doesn't really matter as long as you have somewhere to go. I know the TY associated with Broward main campus is supposed to be chill
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Be sure to ask very carefully what the resident expectations are, months and options for electives, what the average census is, the number of residents expected to take care of that census, and what the policy is if a resident is out sick and needs coverage.

These questions are benign enough but if asked firmly and an explicit answer is received, you can quickly weed out the b******t program that needs scut grubbers.
 
How are you guys going about sending LOI? Just to top program, or are you reaching out to top 5? Or not doing anything at all
 
What if applying DR and IR. Still just one LOI to overall 1, or one per specialty? I feel like just one overall is best, but wanted to see what others are doing
 
Doc_Marinus said:
What if applying DR and IR. Still just one LOI to overall 1, or one per specialty? I feel like just one overall is best, but wanted to see what others are doing
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I'm planning on just sending one letter, period. Still debating about making it a combined #1/#2 letter since it's the IR program and its DR program at the same facility, but I'm definitely not planning on sending more than one letter.
 
To the DO applicants applying DR:

Several states require completion of an osteopathic intern year

OR

Some random CMEs or another test or something else. I think it’s state-specific.

Thought it was worth considering when ranking your intern years. I didn’t realize this was a thing until after I matched and just happened to end up at a TY that covers all that stuff.
 
Ho0v-man said:
To the DO applicants applying DR:

Several states require completion of an osteopathic intern year

OR

Some random CMEs or another test or something else. I think it’s state-specific.

Thought it was worth considering when ranking your intern years. I didn’t realize this was a thing until after I matched and just happened to end up at a TY that covers all that stuff.
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There is some confusion on if Resolution 42 is even necessary due to the merger as there is technically no way to fulfill it with their specific type of intern year. I believe OK, PA, and Fl might be the only states this *might* matter and that was a couple years ago. @hallowmann is not in rads but has posted good content on this subject. Search for older threads in the DO student forum about this and he probably has the useful info (as usual).

Edit: I think worst case you give an osteopathic presentation to your resident class during noon conference and then your PD signs some form? I can't remember.
 
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Neopolymath said:
There is some confusion on if Resolution 42 is even necessary due to the merger as there is technically no way to fulfill it with their specific type of intern year. I believe OK, PA, and Fl might be the only states this *might* matter and that was a couple years ago. @hallowmann is not in rads but has posted good content on this subject. Search for older threads in the DO student forum about this and he probably has the useful info (as usual).

Edit: I think worst case you give an osteopathic presentation to your resident class during noon conference and then your PD signs some form? I can't remember.
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I thought one of those states (OK or FL) dropped it, but its still a thing in PA and I believe one other state. I wouldn't worry too much about the specific rotation requirements as I think they don't care if it makes sense with what residency you are doing. They accredit people who have done path for example all the time.

The resolution 42 through the AOA is stupid easy to get. You essentially have your PD sign off on your list of rotations from intern year (they have a template you can use for this) and you complete and "osteopathic educational activity". This can be one of 3 options, (1) Grand rounds/noon didactic about OMM to your residency/department (verified by PD and with an upload of your ppt), (2) attend an osteopathic conference to get 8 hrs or more osteopathic category 1A CME, or (3) publish in an osteopathic journal related to OMM (you need to upload the CME certificate). You submit all this to AOA, pay something like $75, and you get approval within a month or so. More information is available here: Recognition of PGY1 (Residency Year 1) - American Osteopathic Association

I completed Res 42 application last year from a conference I went to in early 2020, and I had completed my intern year in 2018. So basically as long as you check boxes, it doesn't really matter when you do what, but getting the PD verification letter is probably the most cumbersome part. I imagine with COVID you could probably get some Cat 1A osteopathic CME virtually.

I did it because I'm from PA, and may go back at some point, plus I hated the idea of not being able to be licensed anywhere in the US. Its possible this may all go away, but worst case scenario, you're out a little bit of time and relatively little money compared to all the other stuff you have to pay for as a physician.

As for other DO-specific requirements by state, it is usually specific to the unrestricted/full license, not the training license. All states, as far as I'm aware, offer training licenses (or simply don't require training licenses) without any specific additional requirements. As for unrestricted license requirements, this varies wildly by state and is specific to the DO medical board (if there is one) in that state. There are a few that have ridiculous requirements like osteopathic exams or something, but I wouldn't worry about that until later.
 
hallowmann said:
I thought one of those states (OK or FL) dropped it, but its still a thing in PA and I believe one other state. I wouldn't worry too much about the specific rotation requirements as I think they don't care if it makes sense with what residency you are doing. They accredit people who have done path for example all the time.

The resolution 42 through the AOA is stupid easy to get. You essentially have your PD sign off on your list of rotations from intern year (they have a template you can use for this) and you complete and "osteopathic educational activity". This can be one of 3 options, (1) Grand rounds/noon didactic about OMM to your residency/department (verified by PD and with an upload of your ppt), (2) attend an osteopathic conference to get 8 hrs or more osteopathic category 1A CME, or (3) publish in an osteopathic journal related to OMM (you need to upload the CME certificate). You submit all this to AOA, pay something like $75, and you get approval within a month or so. More information is available here: Recognition of PGY1 (Residency Year 1) - American Osteopathic Association

I completed Res 42 application last year from a conference I went to in early 2020, and I had completed my intern year in 2018. So basically as long as you check boxes, it doesn't really matter when you do what, but getting the PD verification letter is probably the most cumbersome part. I imagine with COVID you could probably get some Cat 1A osteopathic CME virtually.

I did it because I'm from PA, and may go back at some point, plus I hated the idea of not being able to be licensed anywhere in the US. Its possible this may all go away, but worst case scenario, you're out a little bit of time and relatively little money compared to all the other stuff you have to pay for as a physician.

As for other DO-specific requirements by state, it is usually specific to the unrestricted/full license, not the training license. All states, as far as I'm aware, offer training licenses (or simply don't require training licenses) without any specific additional requirements. As for unrestricted license requirements, this varies wildly by state and is specific to the DO medical board (if there is one) in that state. There are a few that have ridiculous requirements like osteopathic exams or something, but I wouldn't worry about that until later.
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Thanks! I think the other state is WV. Also originally from PA and glad I’m keeping options open for going back one day. Glad I don’t have to deal with osteopathic anything ever again in a few months.

As an aside, it’s crazy that these are underserved states and of course the AOA gets in the way of practicing there.
 
Not too sure about the specifics. But I’m 4 years out from gearing up for a job and you’re farther than that. Current info isn’t too useful.
 
Is anyone bothering to try for PSLF as a radiologist? I know you make much less at an academic job which is going to be the way to get that nonprofit position.

This is coming up now bc I'm trying to decide whether to rank all of my prelims since half are HCA and to maybe move around my couple of HCA radiology residencies to the bottom of my radiology programs. I think I'll rank the prelims where I want if I decide not to bother with PSLF, and not rank them except at my HCA rads programs and look for something in the SOAP if I plan for PSLF, but I'm just not sure what the right option is. It looks like with five years of resident pay and five years of $300k-ish attending salary (assuming bc academics) under the PAYE plan, I'd get about $500k forgiven doing PSLF so it's not exactly chump change.

Could I make more than $500k more during my first five years of attending jobs if I go private practice to compensate for losing $500k in forgiveness? Can you even find a nonprofit/academic job as a newly minted attending, or do they typically look for people with experience? Ty
 
calivianya said:
Is anyone bothering to try for PSLF as a radiologist? I know you make much less at an academic job which is going to be the way to get that nonprofit position.

This is coming up now bc I'm trying to decide whether to rank all of my prelims since half are HCA and to maybe move around my couple of HCA radiology residencies to the bottom of my radiology programs. I think I'll rank the prelims where I want if I decide not to bother with PSLF, and not rank them except at my HCA rads programs and look for something in the SOAP if I plan for PSLF, but I'm just not sure what the right option is. It looks like with five years of resident pay and five years of $300k-ish attending salary (assuming bc academics) under the PAYE plan, I'd get about $500k forgiven doing PSLF so it's not exactly chump change.

Could I make more than $500k more during my first five years of attending jobs if I go private practice to compensate for losing $500k in forgiveness? Can you even find a nonprofit/academic job as a newly minted attending, or do they typically look for people with experience? Ty
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I’m considering academics. If you’re going to do academics, would you only do it for pslf? It’s a nice perk for sure, but it’s likely a wash at best financially. If you like academics, you could just do 5 years instead of 4 years in it.
 
Ho0v-man said:
I’m considering academics. If you’re going to do academics, would you only do it for pslf? It’s a nice perk for sure, but it’s likely a wash at best financially. If you like academics, you could just do 5 years instead of 4 years in it.
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I like teaching but it’s not a make it or break it for me. I’ve precepted a ton in previous jobs and always enjoyed it, but I think I could also enjoy private practice and working alone and at my own speed. I’m still completely on the fence on whether I want to pursue academics or not.

Research would be the downside of academics for me. I could do research if I had to but I prefer to just work, and maybe teach.
 
calivianya said:
I like teaching but it’s not a make it or break it for me. I’ve precepted a ton in previous jobs and always enjoyed it, but I think I could also enjoy private practice and working alone and at my own speed. I’m still completely on the fence on whether I want to pursue academics or not.

Research would be the downside of academics for me. I could do research if I had to but I prefer to just work, and maybe teach.
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But if you went academics, you’d do more than just the bare minimum to get pslf though, right? If the answer is already no, then might as well just go PP. It’s not financially worth it.

If the answer is yes, then you’ll get PSLF anyway.

So doing a TY at an HCA program doesn’t seem like it’ll matter too much either way. But that’s just my take.
 
Ho0v-man said:
But if you went academics, you’d do more than just the bare minimum to get pslf though, right? If the answer is already no, then might as well just go PP. It’s not financially worth it.

If the answer is yes, then you’ll get PSLF anyway.

So doing a TY at an HCA program doesn’t seem like it’ll matter too much either way. But that’s just my take.
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I'd definitely do more than the bare minimum - I'd probably stick around if I decided I liked my academic job.

It just seems to become less useful to use PSLF depending on how long it takes. Five years of PAYE payments on attending salary is bad enough, but once I'm getting to six years or more, it seems like it would be more practical to just go private practice and pay my debt off.

I guess I can just roll with it and see how it goes. I have a HCA program for my #2 on my prelim list that seems to have a great quality of life and I may just leave it there, rather than prioritizing being miserable at some of my non-HCA options just to get that extra year of qualifying payments.
 
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anybody know traditionally how far down most programs go on their list to fill the class? i.e. do you have a shot if youre outside the top 10 on their list?
 
I'm ranking 15 different programs. I'm curious if people in a similar position are putting intern years at the bottom of their rank list? I know the odds of me going down that far are low, but i'm considering the options of not matching vs. doing an intern year and chances to reapply to rads again.
 
AnxietyMonster said:
I'm ranking 15 different programs. I'm curious if people in a similar position are putting intern years at the bottom of their rank list? I know the odds of me going down that far are low, but i'm considering the options of not matching vs. doing an intern year and chances to reapply to rads again.
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TYs at the end of your list. Prelims mess with your funding. TYs don’t.
 
Ho0v-man said:
TYs at the end of your list. Prelims mess with your funding. TYs don’t.
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Unless you 100% believe you would go into IM if you fail to match an advanced program. Then do IM prelim.

But having said that, I say bet on yourself and put the TY
 
That's great info that no one at my school seems to know, thank you! Why is it that TYs don't mess with your funding and other intern years do? Interesting little quirk.
 
AnxietyMonster said:
That's great info that no one at my school seems to know, thank you! Why is it that TYs don't mess with your funding and other intern years do? Interesting little quirk.
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I think…and someone correct me if I’m wrong… that when you match/soap into a prelim year that you get allotted the amount(years) of funding for that categorical specialty. So if you just match into prelim medicine, you’re locked into 3 years which includes the intern year you’ve matched into. But TYs don’t don’t do that since they’re transient by design.

That’s why if someone fails to match ortho, for example, it’s really bad advice for them to soap into prelim general surgery as these are not the same length of training. Despite this, MD and DO schools still push people to do this so their match list fills out.

Now if you want to know why it’s this dumb, I have no idea.
 
Ho0v-man said:
I think…and someone correct me if I’m wrong… that when you match/soap into a prelim year that you get allotted the amount(years) of funding for that categorical specialty. So if you just match into prelim medicine, you’re locked into 3 years which includes the intern year you’ve matched into. But TYs don’t don’t do that since they’re transient by design.

That’s why if someone fails to match ortho, for example, it’s really bad advice for them to soap into prelim general surgery as these are not the same length of training. Despite this, MD and DO schools still push people to do this so their match list fills out.

Now if you want to know why it’s this dumb, I have no idea.
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Hmm. General surgery is the same length as ortho no? If you got prelim IM then that makes sense.
 
7331poas said:
Hmm. General surgery is the same length as ortho no? If you got prelim IM then that makes sense.
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But the GS prelim year doesn’t count toward ortho training. So you’ve lost a year of funding if you reapply ortho which is a disadvantage.
 
Ho0v-man said:
But the GS prelim year doesn’t count toward ortho training. So you’ve lost a year of funding if you reapply ortho which is a disadvantage.
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I'm not applying rads, but I'm applying ortho next year and had no idea that a GS prelim messed with funding like that. So really happy I just happened to be aimlessly scrolling today lol
 
Schwifty said:
I'm not applying rads, but I'm applying ortho next year and had no idea that a GS prelim messed with funding like that. So really happy I just happened to be aimlessly scrolling today lol
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Funding most everywhere isn’t an issue the way people on SDN suggest. Sometimes it can be, so ask the PD of a program you’re interested in whether it matters or not. Odds are it won’t.
 
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SeisK said:
Funding most everywhere isn’t an issue the way people on SDN suggest. Sometimes it can be, so ask the PD of a program you’re interested in whether it matters or not. Odds are it won’t.
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Agreed. An average to large program can take that hit and not really notice it. But a smaller program, which may be targets for applicants that fail to match first time, might consider this a reason to rank an applicant lower. So I still think it’s worth ranking TYs and not prelims on your ROL.
 
My school advising strongly suggested against placing any TY programs at bottom of my primary list. Their argument was it would be better to take a year to do aways and radiology research, with the logic that the TY wouldn’t add to the Radiology application.

This goes against my desire to work and earn money, so I’m stuck with whether to add TY programs to my primary list.
 
So basically still rank prelim IM below rads? (if no TY interviews)
SeisK said:
Funding most everywhere isn’t an issue the way people on SDN suggest. Sometimes it can be, so ask the PD of a program you’re interested in whether it matters or not. Odds are it won’t.
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eartwj said:
So basically still rank prelim IM below rads? (if no TY interviews)
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If you aren't willing to match anything else, I would think about it. However, as competitive as rads seemed this year, I don't know that I'd throw prelims/TYs at the bottom unless I just didn't apply broadly the first time or something else that's an easy fix that you can make a significant difference in by September.

I personally feel like my app is as good as it could be and I couldn't really apply more broadly because I applied to >200 programs between DR and IR, so I think it would take a gap year before reapplication to improve my app enough to match rads if my app isn't strong enough to match right now. I opted to also apply categorical IM and am throwing those at the bottom of my primary ROL so I can just go to work. This will be a personal risk/benefit calculation for you.
 
Ho0v-man said:
Agreed. An average to large program can take that hit and not really notice it. But a smaller program, which may be targets for applicants that fail to match first time, might consider this a reason to rank an applicant lower. So I still think it’s worth ranking TYs and not prelims on your ROL.
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Also im pretty sure you still have funding for the 5th year, its just 50%. Thats how the rules work.
 
Zendo said:
Are your categorical IM applications all for community programs? Are academic IM programs feasible as a radiology backup?
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It’s straight community for me because I opted not to double dip out of excessive caution - I did not apply radiology and IM at the same facilities. I thought about adding in a couple academic IMs, but everywhere I could see myself working that had academic IM also had rads so I chose to skip IM apps at those places.

I think I would have been fine for academic IM if I had tried it. All of my research was generic (nothing rads specific), my grades/scores were good, and I had two IM letters and a FM character letter that I have been told were all great.
 
Does anyone have the nrmp stats for DR? I am curious how we made out.
 
2brads said:
Does anyone have the nrmp stats for DR? I am curious how we made out.
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Categorical DR - 1 spot open (133 offered) , Advanced DR - 2 spots open (998 offered), "reserved positions" (I assume physician only) - 2 spots open (28 offered), IR categorical - 0 spots (45 offered), IR advanced - 1 spot (122 offered). Overall, seems like a very competitive year for radiology. I don't know when the full reports are going to come out but I'll be interested to see how they look this year compared to last year.
 
Thanks. Seems super tough. Hope everyone matched ok.
 
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