Cost of attendance limit that’s worth it

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ucd2018 said:
out of curiosity does anyone have a way to calculate how much debt we will actually graduate with? For example I will pay 100k for year 1, 60K for year 2 and 3 (60k each of those 2 years) and then 40K for year four. So this is 260K total but with interest how much will this actually be?
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100K at 7% for 4 years = 131K
60K at 7% for 3 years = 73.5K
60K at 7% for 2 years = 69K
40K at 7% for 1 year = 42.8 K
Total = 316K
Interest = 316K-260K = 56K

Google: compound interest calculator
 
Life of Pablo said:
It’s a good thing a majority of my class got scholarships to Penn ranging anywhere from 40k to 160k.
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sb.tnh said:
With a 160k scholarship your Penn COA will become 330k, at this cost I think one should attend Penn. How many people actually get that though? Very few, indeed only a handful of their best applicants will get that kind of scholarship. Most people receive the 40k scholarship, which means the COA is still 450k. In this case it is not worth it.
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Here to chime in on a couple of corrections:
1. Mathematically that's wrong. By "majority" it means ≥50%, and with a class size of 120-130, that's less than 50%.
2. The 30-40k/yr seems to be more than merit-based and reserved for minorities. This has been confirmed after talking with multiple people from Penn. There are very few of these (1-2 40k and 3-4 30k).

I would have turned down Penn if I did not have help. The education they provide is top-notch undoubtedly, but majority of students will be sucked out in s*** load of debt. I just talked to a recent D2 who has a 30k/yr scholarship, and she told me what she will be paying back afterwards will not be fun. @Big Time Hoosier met a recent Penn graduate who's ≥400k in debt with 120-160k scholarship - now let that sink in.

You can specialize out of any school, the name of it will help in certain places (i.e., LORs), but majority of your application on PASS matter way more on other details than that pedigree. Frankly, just go to the school you feel the best fit at if you really don't care about cost.

Also, if you really care about $$$, dentistry isn't the best fit. Sign a contract with Def Jam and try to land a feature with Cardi B.
 
Rainee said:
There's nothing much to really understand.

Graduate high school. Go get your trucking License. Go do garbage collecting. If you wanted to, you could always move up the chain. Truckers in large cities make way more then 40k. Some 50, 60k or more. In some rare cases you have truckers making 100k The $100,000 job: Garbage workers

So lets see, you are 18, debt free, driving around a truck, have benefits, just making cold hard cash. What you do with that cash is up to them. Invest it? Buy a house. Who knows. All I know is that they are debt free and a decade ahead before you start making a dime.
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Dang Rainee you are sooo smart and your numbers add up so well. I can’t wait to be a garbage truck driver....I’m sorry you weren’t smart enough to join in on the garbage truck driving gig right out of high school though, you’d be so rich by now and have such a sweet lifestyle. Thanks for keeping the rest of us informed though. The grass is so much greener at the dump I cannot believe more people aren’t jumping on this opportunity.
 
youngsushi said:
Here to chime in on a couple of corrections:
1. Mathematically that's wrong. By "majority" it means ≥50%, and with a class size of 120-130, that's less than 50%.
2. The 30-40k/yr seems to be more than merit-based and reserved for minorities. This has been confirmed after talking with multiple people from Penn. There are very few of these (1-2 40k and 3-4 30k).
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I agree. I also talked to about 15 people from UPenn before I canceled my interview there and most of them confirmed the limited 30k-40k scholarships. It seems like 10k-20k scholarships are merit-based and anything above that is only rewarded to minorities (not 100% confirmed but based on what kids in UPenn have told me). I ended up canceling my interview because I needed about 40K a year (which I knew it was almost impossible as a non-minority) for UPenn to be in the same cost range as another school I got accepted to.

I think you should go to the cheapest school you get accepted to and even if you want to specialize, I think public schools are pretty good with it.
 
It really depends on what loans you take out. Federal Lonas vs GRAD PLUS (Allows you to borrow up to tuition minus other financial aid received) loans typically have differing interest rates. If you were to be able to accurately predict what the interest rate will be for the federal loans each year you take them out, predict your percentages for the private loans, and predict how much of each you are going to exactly need (i.e. maxing out on the federal loans and then taking out the rest in private) you can get an exact figure. Most people just use estimates of what they will need because life happens.

You can max out on federal unsubsidized loans which typically hovers around 6.6% (assuming you did not take any out in undergrad that is more than $56,500) which ends up being $82,000 over 4 years. The rest in GRAD PLUS at 7.6% $121,500. *The max for the loans per year at 6.6% is $20,500. This means you'll have to mix and match every year.

A few assumptions:
  • Rates do not increase or decrease every year so each loan taken out will have the same 6.6% or 7.6% rate
  • Only tuition is needed
  • Life does not hit you in the face
Assuming you take out only what you need for that semester (i'm assuming the 100k is only for tuition and you have everything else covered) you would withdraw one $20,500 loan at 6.6% over 4 years which totals to $26,692.99 (compounded 4 times) by the time you graduate. The remainder $79,500 with the GRAD PLUS rate would total $107,740.48 when you graduate. Total for year 1 is $134,433.47. If you use this same logic for the next 4 years you will get:

|Regular @6.6% |Grad Plus @ 7.6% |Total
Year One |$26,692.99 |$107,740.48 |$134,433.47 Compounded a total of 4 times - 4 years
Year Two |$24,988.2 |$49,614.19 |$74,602.47 Compounded a total of 3 times - 3 years
Year Three |$23,392.44 |$45,983.60 |$69,376.04 Compounded a total of 2 times - 2 years
Year Four |$21,898.52 |$21,039.60 |$42,938.12 Compounded a total of 1 time 1 year
Total |$96,972.23 |$224,377.87 |$321,350.10

I used the calculator site compound interest formula calculator

You would Pay $260,000 for the principal and >$62,350.21 (*I put the ">" because interest will keep building even after you graduate and you wont be able to immediately pay off your entire bill unless you win the lottery or something like that)

If you want lower rates you could try and work the private loan market which have fixed rates from 5.25-14% or variable from 4.2-13.4% (rough estimates).

Something to keep in mind is that GRAD PLUS requires good credit or else you will need a cosigner.
 
GoDental101 said:
Dang Rainee you are sooo smart and your numbers add up so well. I can’t wait to be a garbage truck driver....I’m sorry you weren’t smart enough to join in on the garbage truck driving gig right out of high school though, you’d be so rich by now and have such a sweet lifestyle. Thanks for keeping the rest of us informed though. The grass is so much greener at the dump I cannot believe more people aren’t jumping on this opportunity.
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No problem, any more questions I'll be free to answer them. I love the gig, but I def recommend a plan of attack on tackling those loans. Ownership is the best and when the going is good, its really good. Best of luck!
 
princeafrica said:
Nothing more entertaining on SDN that pre-dents that think they know more than experienced dentists
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Nothing more entertaining than an experienced dentist on SDN telling Pre-dents they would be better off being a garbage man.
 
GoDental101 said:
Nothing more entertaining than an experienced dentist on SDN telling Pre-dents they would be better off being a garbage man.
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Rainee's posts are priceless. His real calling should have been writing inspirational quotes on the back of Hallmark cards or E cards for you millennials. Why waste his talents driving a garbage truck? 😀
 
2TH MVR said:
Rainee's posts are priceless. His real calling should have been writing inspirational quotes on the back of Hallmark cards or E cards for you millennials. Why waste his talents driving a garbage truck? 😀
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Haha I know right. The point of the post was to illustrate the "uphill battle" that one has with large loans while some other people go into trade schools and start making money ahead of time with minimal debt. You can easily substitute garbage truck driver with "some other non-professional job" to make the point across. Either way, the point is compounding interest is the 8th wonder in the world, and if you don't understand it...it will hurt later on. Tackle those loans hard and make the most of it. Dentistry is a good gig, and no I wouldn't go back in time and be a garbage truck driver...but I would be more cognizant of what I needed to do right away to be successful. So ownership, plan, and enjoy it!
 
youngsushi said:
Here to chime in on a couple of corrections:
1. Mathematically that's wrong. By "majority" it means ≥50%, and with a class size of 120-130, that's less than 50%.
2. The 30-40k/yr seems to be more than merit-based and reserved for minorities. This has been confirmed after talking with multiple people from Penn. There are very few of these (1-2 40k and 3-4 30k).

I would have turned down Penn if I did not have help. The education they provide is top-notch undoubtedly, but majority of students will be sucked out in s*** load of debt. I just talked to a recent D2 who has a 30k/yr scholarship, and she told me what she will be paying back afterwards will not be fun. @Big Time Hoosier met a recent Penn graduate who's ≥400k in debt with 120-160k scholarship - now let that sink in.

You can specialize out of any school, the name of it will help in certain places (i.e., LORs), but majority of your application on PASS matter way more on other details than that pedigree. Frankly, just go to the school you feel the best fit at if you really don't care about cost.

Also, if you really care about $$$, dentistry isn't the best fit. Sign a contract with Def Jam and try to land a feature with Cardi B.
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When I interviewed, they said 60/125 students received some sort of scholarship. This year they even offered a full ride. They have never disclosed how many people get which scholarship so your number of 1-2 40k and 3-4 30k is just speculation.

There is no way with a 120-160k scholarship that you'd be above 400k in debt unless you are also including residency or gambled your loan money away during dental school.

I'm not saying the NAME itself will get you in. I'm saying schools like Penn, Harvard, Columbia etc cater towards specializing whether its through their grading system, time off to study for entrance exams, or even the people who write your letters of recommendation. I just find it hard to believe that Ivy league schools are the only ones with a bunch of students that want to specialize. At the start of dental school, there are two types of students - those that want to specialize and liars. It's only after maybe the first exam do most realize that they might not have what it takes.

Let me give you an analogy. Ivy league schools are like the New England Patriots. Every year Ivy league schools send a plethora of students into specialties and every year the Patriots either win the super bowl or at least make the super bowl. Do the Patriots make the super bowl every year because they "work harder" than everybody else, are stacked with the best players in the league, and simply want to win more than every other team? NO. The reason they win so much is because they have a system in place that allows their players to achieve their maximum potential. Same thing goes with Ivy league schools. They have systems that allow their students to succeed more.
Does this mean that other teams in the league will never win? No of course not. But, you have a much higher chance of winning on the Patriots 😛, just like you have a higher chance of specializing at an Ivy league school.
 
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Life of Pablo said:
When I interviewed, they said 60/125 students received some sort of scholarship. This year they even offered a full ride. They have never disclosed how many people get which scholarship so your number of 1-2 40k and 3-4 30k is just speculation.

There is no way with a 120-160k scholarship that you'd be above 400k in debt unless you are also including residency or gambled your loan money away during dental school.

I'm not saying the NAME itself will get you in. I'm saying schools like Penn, Harvard, Columbia etc cater towards specializing whether its through their grading system, time off to study for entrance exams, or even the people who write your letters of recommendation. I just find it hard to believe that Ivy league schools are the only ones with a bunch of students that want to specialize. At the start of dental school, there are two types of students - those that want to specialize and liars. It's only after maybe the first exam do most realize that they might not have what it takes.
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60 out of 125 is not a majority...
 
GoDental101 said:
Nothing more entertaining than an experienced dentist on SDN telling Pre-dents they would be better off being a garbage man.
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no one is saying that
we are just pointing out that it takes a long time to catch up to the opportunity cost
 
Life of Pablo said:
Ok 48% my bad....show me a school that gives that many scholarships lol.
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They awarded 50 scholarships according to the sheet they sent to applicants. And I bet most of them are 10Ks scholarships. Also their tuition is almost 80k + about 13k in fees. So technically they need to offere about 30k to compete with public schools.
 
Life of Pablo said:
There is no way with a 120-160k scholarship that you'd be above 400k in debt unless you are also including residency or gambled your loan money away during dental school.
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I think you are forgetting compound interest, at 7-8% interest I can see that happen.

Life of Pablo said:
I'm not saying the NAME itself will get you in. I'm saying schools like Penn, Harvard, Columbia etc cater towards specializing whether its through their grading system, time off to study for entrance exams, or even the people who write your letters of recommendation. I just find it hard to believe that Ivy league schools are the only ones with a bunch of students that want to specialize. At the start of dental school, there are two types of students - those that want to specialize and liars. It's only after maybe the first exam do most realize that they might not have what it takes.
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I agree the Ivy's are definitely geared for people who want to specialize, but there ends up being a lot of people who end up not specializing, simply because they don't want to. My point was that going to an Ivy sort of pigeonhole yourself into specializing if you wish to pay back the burdensome debt, since not every dentist can be an outlier that makes a lot of money.
 
youngsushi said:
I think you are forgetting compound interest, at 7-8% interest I can see that happen.



I agree the Ivy's are definitely geared for people who want to specialize, but there ends up being a lot of people who end up not specializing, simply because they don't want to. My point was that going to an Ivy sort of pigeonhole yourself into specializing if you wish to pay back the burdensome debt, since not every dentist can be an outlier that makes a lot of money.
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If you realize after the first year at an Ivy you don't want to specialize, you can apply for the 3 year HPSP. Everyone in my class that applied for it got it this year. Military definitely loves the pedigree.
 
AEZDent said:
I really have a hard time believing this
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He's actually right. At least in NY. Civil servants are union workers with starting 15 PTO days, waste management isn't 9-5 days start earlier and less days per week, so most guys have side jobs/companies they run, because they are civil servants they get incorporated into a great retirement plan and guaranteed raises, lots of guys top out at over 100k a year, and on top of that the healthcare plan they have is heavily subsidized. Don't hate on waste management jobs they arr actually really good lol.
 
Blueshirts said:
He's actually right. At least in NY. Civil servants are union workers with starting 15 PTO days, waste management isn't 9-5 days start earlier and less days per week, so most guys have side jobs/companies they run, because they are civil servants they get incorporated into a great retirement plan and guaranteed raises, lots of guys top out at over 100k a year, and on top of that the healthcare plan they have is heavily subsidized. Don't hate on waste management jobs they arr actually really good lol.
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There you have it. Even more evidence that being a garbage man is awesome. I bet in like 5-10 years it will be on every list of top jobs in the U.S
 
GoDental101 said:
There you have it. Even more evidence that being a garbage man is awesome. I bet in like 5-10 years it will be on every list of top jobs in the U.S
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You should try to be less entitled and belittling toward people. People who are doing waste management positions are people who you may one day have as a patient and I'm sure they wouldn't like to know you think little of them because of their chosen occupation. Everyone knows people working these jobs are the backbone of our society.
 
youngsushi said:
Here to chime in on a couple of corrections:
1. Mathematically that's wrong. By "majority" it means ≥50%, and with a class size of 120-130, that's less than 50%.
2. The 30-40k/yr seems to be more than merit-based and reserved for minorities. This has been confirmed after talking with multiple people from Penn. There are very few of these (1-2 40k and 3-4 30k).

I would have turned down Penn if I did not have help. The education they provide is top-notch undoubtedly, but majority of students will be sucked out in s*** load of debt. I just talked to a recent D2 who has a 30k/yr scholarship, and she told me what she will be paying back afterwards will not be fun. @Big Time Hoosier met a recent Penn graduate who's ≥400k in debt with 120-160k scholarship - now let that sink in.

You can specialize out of any school, the name of it will help in certain places (i.e., LORs), but majority of your application on PASS matter way more on other details than that pedigree. Frankly, just go to the school you feel the best fit at if you really don't care about cost.

Also, if you really care about $$$, dentistry isn't the best fit. Sign a contract with Def Jam and try to land a feature with Cardi B.
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I think that what @Life of Pablo meant was that the number of students at Penn paying that full price tag is a minority of the population. Consider 50 scholarships from the University, probably ~15-20 HPSP/NHSC scholarships, those who are Graduate Associates in the dorms (and thus do not pay for housing, electricity, etc.), and those who live at home and commute. Some people combine multiple of the above. Yes, there are people paying that full price tag. Some of them have help from their parents, some are on their own, but a majority of students are not paying the full price tag at Penn. It is never a good idea to make broad, general statements based off of the experience of a few people. Penn gives scholarships to those that they feel deserve it. End of story.

That being said I know this is a hot topic and it is easy for everyone to get worked up over cost of attendance. Everyone has different opinions about how much one should pay for school. No single person is correct. Does it matter if Joe Johnson paid $500k for dental school and Sammy Smith paid $120k? No. We all end up 6 feet under. The dental profession is filled with differing opinions and I think it is best if everyone on SDN respects that, tries to learn from others, and lives their life. Do what you feel is best for your patients and move on.
 
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AppalachianDentalBoy said:
Texas A&M in Dallas has a COA of $220,000. This probably exceeds what you can make as an associate in the city but at a fee for service practice run in a rural area I'd be surprised if that was all I'd make as a first year.



Welcome to the thread 😉 Pablo is correct on this one. I've seen corporate offers for OMS fresh out at 750k just pulling teeth.
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"Just pulling teeth" is the money maker in OMFS. You can easily do 6 wisdom tooth cases per day and make average 1200ish per case take home. Comparing this to OG or trauma cases in the OR where sometimes you dont even get paid anything more than the hospital's flat salary for just being there.
 
Wingie said:
I think you have it backwards. You should encourage people who want to specialize to go to cheap schools. If someone graduates from a dental school with COA of 400K before interest and then does a 6 yr OS residency, the principal would have been accumulating interest for 10 years (dental school + residency) before he/she could start paying it off. Moreover, if he/she decides to attend a residency that requires him/her to pay for medical school for 2-3 yrs (i.e 99% of 6 yr programs), that's another 100-200K to the principal. After 4 yrs of dental school (400K principal) and 6 yrs of residency (200K principal), that grad will owe approximately 1.2 Million with a 7% interest rate. Now, some people will say:
"Hey Wingie, can't the grad pay on the loans during residency?" Yes, but that's not likely because many residencies do not allow moonlighting and the 50K pre-tax stipend isn't enough to cover living expenses, family expenses and your loans.
"Well, I'm going to make 750K as an oral surgeon so who cares if I owe 1.2 mill?" The most recent ADA survey on salaries states that the median OS salary is approximately 330K.
"Well, I'll just do 4-yr residency, so I won't pay anymore tuition" You'll still owe at least 800K because of interest.

If someone graduates from a dental school with a COA of 400-500K and then ends up in a tuition based Peds residency (+100 to 200K), he/she will end up owing 800-900K after interest is compounded. And he/she will likely make a median salary of 240K, which is not much more than a GP.

The point is compound interest is a real thing, so the lower the principal the better.

(Edited to indicate that Cost of Attendance only includes Principal borrowed. COA does not include the interest)
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I do agree that you should go to the cheapest school, but you're only paying for 4ish semesters of med school in the 6 year program, and med school is way way cheaper than dental school. You're not paying anywhere near 200,000 extra. Also, I've heard of a ton of residents who pay enough towards their loans that it pretty much takes away the added interest.
 
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allantois said:
He has plenty of them with dentists!
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To sum him up for those who dont watch... go with the cheaper option, work hard to find a job that pays a lot out of school, live like a college student and put the majority of your paychecks to your student loans, and be done with it after 3 years. Dont buy your Benz or dream house until you're paid off.
 
AN4TOMY said:
Thats just one example, and it so happens to be the most expensive medical school in the country. I think most residents will find themself paying less than 100k extra if they were to go 6 year. Some programs even give a stipend during the medical school years too, and of course some moonlight.
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1. There are several programs that waive tuition and/or provide stipends during med school, but those are the exceptions not the norm.
2. Many programs discourage or prohibit moonlighting.
3. Many OS-MD programs cost more than 100K for 2-3 years of med school because residents have living expenses and they are not receiving a stipend during med school.
 
Life of Pablo said:
There is no way with a 120-160k scholarship that you'd be above 400k in debt unless you are also including residency or gambled your loan money away during dental school.
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True story. They had received over $120,000 in scholarships during their time at UPenn and still owed well north of $400,000.

Life of Pablo said:
I just find it hard to believe that Ivy league schools are the only ones with a bunch of students that want to specialize. At the start of dental school, there are two types of students - those that want to specialize and liars. It's only after maybe the first exam do most realize that they might not have what it takes.
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De-surround yourself from all the gunners and you might actually find there are A LOT of people who go to dental school to actually become general dentists. The real liars are those that say they absolutely know they want to specialize in a certain field because of their sincere interest without having any experience in it whatsoever. How on earth do these people know they want to specialize before Day 1?! Oh, that’s right...

F8ED1EE6-9221-41FC-B3F0-1548CCC6E27D.gif


SDN makes specializing appear to be a near impossibility if you don’t go to a “fancy” school. I’m headed to a very competitive pedo program this summer and not a single incoming resident went to to an Ivy League dental school. You all are really overdoing it here.

Life of Pablo said:
Military definitely loves the pedigree.
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Yeah...that’s a negative, Ghost Rider. They really couldn’t care less. I remember being in a conversation with a bunch of providers and one officer genuinely didn’t even know UPenn and Columbia were Ivy League schools. The UPenn and Columbia grads were a bit sore at that. The only academic pedigree anyone in the military likely cares about are the service academies.

Big Hoss
 
And quit hating on sanitation workers! They have saved countless more lives than healthcare workers have or ever will. They are literally “protecting health, saving lives, millions at a time.” Maybe some of you would rather live where typhus is just a way of life.

Big Hoss
 
@Life of Pablo I know you love UPenn and want to battle for them like they are your own children but very few get the 40k a year scholarships. When I interviewed I asked Corky she said only 4 people got it during my year of admissions. Don’t make it seem like 60/130 got it. Majority get the measley 10k a year as a consolation prize. I have friends there so don’t BS with me.
Did you mention the drop out number from the year ahead of you? Of course not. Well those folks are out 100+ grand.

Claiming the majority of people are not owing lots of money is ridiculous. Dental school is a business, do you really think the university and all the upgrades they’ve been making to the school comes from money made from thin air? No they come from your tuition. You really think they are oprah throwing free tuition left and right? The school has to run and it runs on tuition.
And the military are nuts paying for any UPenn student or private dental school student. They could get 2 public school students for every 1 private school student to work for them in the military yet they are still blowing 500k a year instead of 250k for the same work they need. But that’s the US military budgeting for you.
 
Likkriue said:
@Life of Pablo I know you love UPenn and want to battle for them like they are your own children but very few get the 40k a year scholarships. When I interviewed I asked Corky she said only 4 people got it during my year of admissions. Don’t make it seem like 60/130 got it. Majority get the measley 10k a year as a consolation prize. I have friends there so don’t BS with me.
Did you mention the drop out number from the year ahead of you? Of course not. Well those folks are out 100+ grand.

Claiming the majority of people are not owing lots of money is ridiculous. Dental school is a business, do you really think the university and all the upgrades they’ve been making to the school comes from money made from thin air? No they come from your tuition. You really think they are oprah throwing free tuition left and right? The school has to run and it runs on tuition.
And the military are nuts paying for any UPenn student or private dental school student. They could get 2 public school students for every 1 private school student to work for them in the military yet they are still blowing 500k a year instead of 250k for the same work they need. But that’s the US military budgeting for you.
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There’s a reason the military plans to downsize medical/dental lol. It would be hard to convince someone getting instate at their public school to join the military.
 
Blueshirts said:
Don't hate on waste management jobs they arr actually really good lol.
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Wasn't trying to hate. I have a lot of respect for people who work those jobs. It's not an easy or a fun job but I'm definitely glad there are people out there willing to do it.
 
Likkriue said:
@Life of Pablo I know you love UPenn and want to battle for them like they are your own children but very few get the 40k a year scholarships. When I interviewed I asked Corky she said only 4 people got it during my year of admissions. Don’t make it seem like 60/130 got it. Majority get the measley 10k a year as a consolation prize. I have friends there so don’t BS with me.
Did you mention the drop out number from the year ahead of you? Of course not. Well those folks are out 100+ grand.

Claiming the majority of people are not owing lots of money is ridiculous.
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I can't agree more with this. I think the 40k scholarships are there to deceive people to apply to UPenn thinking they will get 40k but they end up with 10k if they are lucky.
 
NITRAS said:
I can’t figure if this thread makes me want to laugh or cry.

Clearly, some of y’all have a very poor grasp of the effects of large debt loads and how it effects your life.
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It's definitely a common theme here. It amazes me that there is almost a 50:50 split on those predents and dents. Half are justifying high DS debt, Ivy's, pricey private DS with the reasons of easier route to specialization and becoming a better, more equipped GP (super GP). Other half chooses DS with the least amount of debt.

Seriously ... you can be a GP or Specialist from any school. Do predents go to Ivy's because they're concerned they will not have the qualifications to specialize in a cheap public DS? I specialized the old fashion way. Went to public schools all my life. Went to a very inxpensive midwest DS. Decided AFTER 1-2 yrs at DS to become an Orthodontist. Kept my grades up starting day 1 DS to keep my options open.

As for those students headed to the expensive DS. Some don't have choice. I get it. Maybe your academics precludes you to attend a cheaper, more competitive DS. All for the sake to be a dentist. That's fine. You'll achieve your dream. But you financial life going forward will be more difficult than others. That's the message half the posters are trying to make.
 
Likkriue said:
@Life of Pablo I know you love UPenn and want to battle for them like they are your own children but very few get the 40k a year scholarships. When I interviewed I asked Corky she said only 4 people got it during my year of admissions. Don’t make it seem like 60/130 got it. Majority get the measley 10k a year as a consolation prize. I have friends there so don’t BS with me.
Did you mention the drop out number from the year ahead of you? Of course not. Well those folks are out 100+ grand.
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The people that dropped out realized dentistry wasn't for them. It was like 3 people, and this happens at every school. If you drop out early enough, you're not paying the entire 100k. Nobody has dropped out of my class. Also, last time I checked, 40k is still a lot of money. I'll take that as a consolation prize any day of the week.

Likkriue said:
@Life of Pablo
Claiming the majority of people are not owing lots of money is ridiculous. Dental school is a business, do you really think the university and all the upgrades they’ve been making to the school comes from money made from thin air? No they come from your tuition. You really think they are oprah throwing free tuition left and right? The school has to run and it runs on tuition.
And the military are nuts paying for any UPenn student or private dental school student. They could get 2 public school students for every 1 private school student to work for them in the military yet they are still blowing 500k a year instead of 250k for the same work they need. But that’s the US military budgeting for you.
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Refer to what @PSUDent18 said. ~20 people in my class are on HPSP, there are people who are graduate assistants in the dorms and therefore are not paying for COL, there are people whose parents/family members are helping them, and then there are scholarships. People figure out ways to lower the cost, so this idea that everyone is paying 470k is absurd.

Of course dental schools are businesses and money does not come thin air, but a lot of the money they use towards scholarships and facility upgrades comes from donors. For the new facilities, someone donated like 15 million dollars. Everyone's tuition money at all dental schools gets used mainly to pay for the faculty/staff that work at the dental school.

At the end of the day, you have to figure out what's best for you. There are tons of posts on these forums along the lines of "help I want to specialize in "X" but my rank isn't high enough. What do I do?". That's why I'm saying if you are set on a speciality like Ortho, OMFS, or Peds, the risk of being in debt is worth the reward because you will be able to pay the debt back with your salary. It's easy for a lot of people who are already specialists to say that all it takes is a little hard work, and to downplay what they had to do to get there. There are so many variables in dental school you cannot control, and it's not always about just working hard.
Big Time Hoosier said:
De-surround yourself from all the gunners and you might actually find there are A LOT of people who go to dental school to actually become general dentists. The real liars are those that say they absolutely know they want to specialize in a certain field because of their sincere interest without having any experience in it whatsoever. How on earth do these people know they want to specialize before Day 1?! Oh, that’s right...

View attachment 251551
Big Hoss
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How did we know we wanted to go into dentistry without picking up a hand piece and drilling a tooth? I hate this argument, and it's such a bad one. You don't have to physically do something to know if it peaks your interest and is something that you find extremely interesting. I can guarentee you that if money was the motivator for everyone who wanted to specialize during their D1 year, they would never make it through residency. Why would you put yourself through 2-6 more years of misery in residency when you could do just as well or even better as a GD?

Big Time Hoosier said:
SDN makes specializing appear to be a near impossibility if you don’t go to a “fancy” school. I’m headed to a very competitive pedo program this summer and not a single incoming resident went to to an Ivy League dental school. You all are really overdoing it here.


Big Hoss
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You're joking right? It's just the opposite on these forums. There are so many people on here that say specializing is easy and only takes a little bit of work. Read through this thread and you'll see that. I really don't like seeing that message when I have plenty of friends struggling in STATE SCHOOLS and everyone acts like it's a walk in the park. The people saying you can easy specialize from a state school either a) are specialists themselves or b) are pre-dents that haven't started dental school so they don't know what it's like yet. There are so many people that didn't have what it takes for whatever reason, and it's unfortunate because saying you want to go to an ivy league school in order to increase your chances of specializing is like saying you're a Trump supporter in real life. It shouldn't be that way.

Again, I know my opinion is unpopular because it's not the "happy-go-lucky" message that everyone wants to read. But I also think it's important to see both sides, and know very well that it's going to take more than a little work to succeed in dental school.
 
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The only thing I will say about the above post is that the confidence in stating that a specialist debt will be made up with salary. Do not downplay the fact that you will have 300-500k of loans on the back burner for an additional 2-3 years accumulating interest and in addition to that more debt, you will be in a tough place.

I will also add that when it comes to business there is absolutely no correlation with specialists = more and gps = less. I know for a fact I make more then my OMFS, and endodontist. Out of my 2014 graduates, I'm light years ahead because they only graduated 2 years ago and have an enormous amount of debt due to compounding interest.

However, I do know many specialists that dwarf my numbers. My established OMFS that I refer to absolutely crushes my numbers.

Why is that? Because BUSINESS puts everyone on an even playing field. It's not hard to graduate, find a 1 million practice on 50-60% OH buy it and take a big paycheck. Wait what!? Yes you heard that right. Having a well run business regardless of gp/specialty will make you money.

That's why specialty I only recommend doing so if you truly like the field.
 
Rainee said:
The only thing I will say about the above post is that the confidence in stating that a specialist debt will be made up with salary. If you are downplaying the fact that you will have 300-500k of loans on the back burner for an additional 2-3 years accumulating interest and in addition to that more debt, you will be in a tough place.

I will also add that when it comes to business there is absolutely no correlation with specialists = more and gps = less. I know for a fact I make more then my periodontist, endodontist, and OMFS. Out of my 2014 graduates, I'm light years ahead because they only graduated 2 years ago and have an enormous amount of debt due to compounding interest.

However, I do know many specialists that dwarf my numbers.

Why is that? Because BUSINESS puts everyone on an even playing field. It's not hard to graduate, find a 1 million practice on 50-60% OH buy it and take a big paycheck. Wait what!? Yes you heard that right. Having a well run business regardless of gp/specialty will make you money.

That's why specialty I only recommend doing so if you truly like the field.
Click to expand...
That's exactly my point with saying it's not about the money in terms of specializing. @Big Time Hoosier argues that if you're a D1 and want to specialize, it's obviously because you're in it for the money. False! Some of the top earners are GPs, and if you're all about making money, your best bet is to become a GP and open a few successful practices.
 
Life of Pablo said:
The people that dropped out realized dentistry wasn't for them. It was like 3 people, and this happens at every school. If you drop out early enough, you're not paying the entire 100k. Nobody has dropped out of my class. Also, last time I checked, 40k is still a lot of money. I'll take that as a consolation prize any day of the week.



Refer to what @PSUDent18 said. ~20 people in my class are on HPSP, there are people who are graduate assistants in the dorms and therefore are not paying for COL, there are people whose parents/family members are helping them, and then there are scholarships. People figure out ways to lower the cost, so this idea that everyone is paying 470k is absurd.

Of course dental schools are businesses and money does not come thin air, but a lot of the money they use towards scholarships and facility upgrades comes from donors. For the new facilities, someone donated like 15 million dollars. Everyone's tuition money at all dental schools gets used mainly to pay for the faculty/staff that work at the dental school.

At the end of the day, you have to figure out what's best for you. There are tons of posts on these forums along the lines of "help I want to specialize in "X" but my rank isn't high enough. What do I do?". That's why I'm saying if you are set on a speciality like Ortho, OMFS, or Peds, the risk of being in debt is worth the reward because you will be able to pay the debt back with your salary. It's easy for a lot of people who are already specialists to say that all it takes is a little hard work, and to downplay what they had to do to get there. There are so many variables in dental school you cannot control, and it's not always about just working hard.

How did we know we wanted to go into dentistry without picking up a hand piece and drilling a tooth? I hate this argument, and it's such a bad one. You don't have to physically do something to know if it peaks your interest and is something that you find extremely interesting. I can guarentee you that if money was the motivator for everyone who wanted to specialize during their D1 year, they would never make it through residency. Why would you put yourself through 2-6 more years of misery in residency when you could do just as well or even better as a GD?


You're joking right? It's just the opposite on these forums. There are so many people on here that say specializing is easy and only takes a little bit of work. Read through this thread and you'll see that. I really don't like seeing that message when I have plenty of friends struggling in STATE SCHOOLS and everyone acts like it's a walk in the park. The people saying you can easy specialize from a state school either a) are specialists themselves or b) are pre-dents that haven't started dental school so they don't know what it's like yet. There are so many people that didn't have what it takes for whatever reason, and it's unfortunate because saying you want to go to an ivy league school in order to increase your chances of specializing is like saying you're a Trump supporter in real life. It shouldn't be that way.

Again, I know my opinion is unpopular because it's not the "happy-go-lucky" message that everyone wants to read. But I also think it's important to see both sides, and know very well that it's going to take more than a little work to succeed in dental school.
Click to expand...
You need take some time off sdn and relax.
 
Life of Pablo said:
The people that dropped out realized dentistry wasn't for them. It was like 3 people, and this happens at every school. If you drop out early enough, you're not paying the entire 100k. Nobody has dropped out of my class. Also, last time I checked, 40k is still a lot of money. I'll take that as a consolation prize any day of the of the week
Click to expand...

Of course not everyone owes 500k, but the majority will. If not then I call BS cause then the school will go bankrupt. Dental school isn’t a charity, they make their money one way or another. I can guarantee you they are probably in the red like all dental schools. And it was more than 3 and only one of them dropped because they felt it wasn’t for them(wanted to go to medical school). One took a hiatus because they were in danger of repeating the entire year. Also not every school has that high percentage of a drop out rate. My argument isn’t trying to bash UPenn because drop outs tend to be the fault of the students themselves. And dropping out usually happens at the end of the year not the middle of it, so of course you wouldn’t see any yet and you can bet they paid full price. You are still halfway in your first year, like come on. Is UPenn going to forgive all the money borrowed? No, because it’s a business.

The points im making is that you are trying to make UPenn seem like a paradise when it is far from that. My friend bitches to me about the UPenn administration all the time. I told him grass always looks greener on the other side. All schools have their own issues. UPenn is no worst and no better than any other school.
 
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Likkriue said:
Of course not everyone owes 500k, but the majority will. If not then I call BS cause then the school will go bankrupt. Dental school isn’t a charity, they make their money one way or another. I can guarantee you they are probably in the red like all dental schools. And it was more than 3 and only one of them dropped because they felt it wasn’t for them(wanted to go to medical school). One took a hiatus because they were in danger of repeating the entire year. Also not every school has that high percentage of a drop out rate. My argument isn’t trying to bash UPenn because drop outs tend to be the fault of the students themselves. And dropping out usually happens at the end of the year not the middle of it, so of course you wouldn’t see any yet and you can bet they paid full price. You are still halfway in your first year, like come on. Is UPenn going to forgive all the money borrowed? No, because it’s a business.

The points im making is that you are trying to make UPenn seem like a paradise when it is far from that. My friend bitches to me about the UPenn administration all the time. I told him grass is greener on the other side. All schools have their own issues. UPenn is no worst and no better than any other school.
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Tell your friend to stop bitching and man up.
 
Life of Pablo said:
How did we know we wanted to go into dentistry without picking up a hand piece and drilling a tooth?
Click to expand...
Exactly my point! You hardly know you want to become a dentist, how on earth can you commit to a dental subspecialty at this point? What are these predent and D1 gunners chasing then? If not money, prestige? Just can't turn off the gunning? Look, just go to dental school to become a dentist. Work hard to keep your options as open as possible. If during your studies and clinical experiences you become enamored with a specialty, then go for it. Oh, and go to the cheapest school you get into. Y'all are putting the cart before the horse.

Big Hoss
 
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